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KoltirasRip — EvolutionChart
Published: 2012-06-25 00:36:32 +0000 UTC; Views: 5347; Favourites: 138; Downloads: 49
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EDIT: Apparently hyenas aren't dogs. This blows my mind *laughs* Anywho, the point was that mutts would look like them in the sense that a common dog resembles all of its peers, like wolves, African Wild Dogs and Dingos do, if left to their own devices...so since Hyenas are morphologically similar to canines, the point is still valid.OKAY...COMMENTS CLOSED NOW. It's been an hour since I made my last reply to the last comment sent to me, and I haven't gotten another response...so I'm gonna go ahead and close this thing. Please be aware that there are only like...3 people total that ended up getting banned because of their arguments, and it was certainly not because of their beliefs. It was their manner. I've said it before and I'll say it again...believe whatever you want, but don't shove your faith down someone else's throat like it's fact. Faith and fact are not the same, and no matter how hard you think something is true, believing it won't make it so. Until you can find proof for your claims, they are little more than empty, soulless promises. So I close by saying "I respect the believer, but not the beliefs, and I can't, so long as a large chunk of those beliefs brainwash people into hating, discriminating, and devaluing other people who never once had the choice of being born into your favored place in existence."
UPDATE: Just a fair warning...I'm gonna close comments on this thing pretty soon cuz I'm spending far too much time reading and responding, and I'm not getting any work done. It's been awesome talking with some of you guys (frustrating as shit with others of you,) but I gotta finish my costume for Otakon XD
At the risk of pissing off a lot of people, I'm gonna post this. Normally I keep my views about this to myself but there's been a lot of Creationist stuff going around lately and my forehead is raw from the face-palming and head-desking I've been doing.
If you believe in God, that's cool, I'm not trying to tell you not to. However, your religious leaders are going out of their way to impose upon ALL PEOPLE their twisted views of how the universe came into being, and the morality rules of some Bronze Age goat-herders who believed lightning was God's wrath, and children could be sold into slavery. It is both detrimental and absurd.
So...yeah. Don't hate. Educate. Learn. Never take ONE source as the truth. There's a reason your school teachers and college professors REQUIRE you to cite several credible sources when you do research assignments. If you only use one source, and that source ends up being wrong or an outright lie, you can get yourself into a lot of trouble.
And no, the Bible doesn't count as multiple sources because it was written by multiple people. It has been heavily altered, mistranslated, changed, mistranslated again, applied falsely, and most of it, even before then, was heavily self-contradictory... The Sunni and Shia Muslims are killing each other because of a difference in translation of the Koran. The entire Protestant Bible is a heavily edited version of the Old Testament because King Henry VIII wanted a divorce that the Pope wouldn't give him. The Old Testament itself is a fucked up amalgamation of DOZENS of religions and pagan beliefs that predated it.
After all, if Emperor Nero had chosen Mithra-ism as the State Religion, everyone in America would believe in Mithra. I would still be an Atheist. The very reason you find all other religions on earth to be false is exactly why I know Christianity is. It's all a lie, perpetuated by superstition and the inferiority-complex of long-dead men who wanted to control even more inferior men (and women.) Sorry.
I'm hoping any comments added to this are civil. I feel, however, that many people will see this as an attack on their faith. To me, it's no different than telling a child that Santa Claus isn't real. The only difference is that God is the Santa Claus of adults and it's frightening that many are trying to dictate how others live their lives because of their 'faith.' Faith is not a virtue. It's a cancer.
EDIT: Really quick...if I don't respond to you, there's probably 2 reasons. 1, You're agreeing with me, or 2, I think you're too stupid to breathe. If I don't reply to your nonsense, it's not because I think you're right...it's because you can't be reasoned with and I'm not going to try.
YET ANOTHER EDIT: [link] Here's a link to an article that describes how scientists created biological entities in the lab. They weren't insects and you could hardly call if 'living, breathing, motivated life' but RNA is an ancestor to DNA, and we all know what comes after that.
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Comments: 200
I absolutely love you for this thing... Maybe you should disable comments so you won't be stuck with the debates that bible thumpers will bring (although I've already read a few of them...) When someone starts to talk about the love of god etc, I ask if they've ever read the whole bible and just how much DEATH is in it. A father to sacrifice his own son and other random whatnot. So I wouldn't call him a loving and merciful god, would you? =/ But I agree with all this completely... Although it would be AWESOME if we could be like pokemon XD I don't know any kid that didn't wish they were real. I always wanted a Vulpix/Ninetails
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okay im a Catholic and we believe in God. And i do understand why you react this way and i dont find it inappropriate to act that way due to the evidences presented and science itself. and yeah eventhough im a Catholic i do believe that not all information from our Bible is true because it is JUST a collection of stories/poems/songs written by people before and by that very fact we can say that maybe they even made up some of these stories. But even if it is just made up i still think that the Bible was created so that the future generation( mostly for those who chose to be a Catholic) can have a GUIDE. but still we are people we have our own brains to enable us to choose so it is up to us if we choose to enslave ourselves with the ideas/beliefs/leaders patronizing our Religion. so off with my Religious belief..
im not a science person i actually hate science thats why im not good at it LOL .. but yeah thank goodness, i do understand the chart because its not presented in a not so complex way. and i must say this chart make me believe in evolution and unlike others i dont see the point of rejecting others' idea, rejecting some theories that is already presented in front of them with proof( either complete/incomplete and hey i think its even if we see it like this -> evolution vs creation <- because they both have no complete evidence with what they want to prove. guess we'll just have to wait to finally see the complete evidence)
what i dont understand is why do we have to bash each others belief? T_T .. i mean why cant we just let them believe what they want to believe and for us, believe in what we want to believe? its not like it affects our lifestyle in a bad way right? lets just let each other do our own stuff..
anywaaaaaaaaay this post along with the comments both educate & intrigue me in someways ..
you made me laugh with the palming your forehead thing >_< LOL
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Gotta say, love the tigershark analogy. XD
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Amen to that!
lol jk though I do agree with everything. :le sigh: As a Catholic born in a hardcore Catholic family is seems contradictory to believe in Evolution instead of Creationism... well believe is not the term I should use sine Charles Darwin Evolution of the Species is all truth that has been proven through and through unlike the Bible. I have to admit I was cracking up at the Pokemon one XD I wish we were Pokemon... I wanna be Charmander.
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I'd be a Growlithe, cuz evolving into Arcanine would be AWESOME.
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lol that it would be XD I wanna fly and breathe fire... I'm a pyro
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This has been the best read I have ever READ on the internet of all places! Kudos to you! Finally someone else out there somewhere that shares my same views to a T!
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THERE YOU ARE.
I THOUGHT YOU WERE GONE FOREVER.
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I am rarely on here I am coming back though sometime lol I just needed a long hiatus. I wasn't going to post artwork here anymore but I decided to come back. I just don't when that is just yet. lol
I can be difficult sometimes XD
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lol. A debate. How fun. I'll join and will probably be the only person who is willing to defend my beliefs. I, unlike some, can tolerate bashing because I think it's funny.
You listed so many things I doubt I'll be able to answer them all, so I'll just point out the things that bugged me.
SO IT BEGINS.
----
The first thing that I noticed.
You're mixing up types of evolution. Micro and Macro. Micro is adapting and a species evolving like with breeding and adapting.
Macro is the theory that a species evolves into a different species.
There's a DIFFERENCE. Google it.
You mention animal races, yet you do not mention human 'races'.
Darwin was a racist. In his book "The Decent of Man" he said "At some future period , not distant as measured by centuries , the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes will no doubt be exterminated."
Just the typical Mr. Sunshine, wasn't he?
But my personal comments aside, don't you think he just MIGHT of based his theory to fit his views?
Does your opinion comply with 'there is a better breed of human'? What would (in your opinion) fulfill that standard of 'human'? Why do we have morals when all animals have is instinct? Why have only 'we' evolved so highly?
Or, do you not give a crap about such thought provoking questions? haha.
Another thing that bothered me, do you even know what Christianity is? (please don't google someone else's meaning, I want you're own) Everyone nowadays always has so many narrow-minded opinions on it that it annoys me.
List your opinions on what you think Christians are/or what they do/or what Christianity is please? I would prefer to understand where you're coming from.
BTW, I do not deny science. I just deny a theory that does not have enough evidence for me. It not only goes against my beliefs, but it is impractical and physically impossible.
Hmm, did I post too much? I've really only studied to defend creation vs. evolution, so I'm not feeling all that confident...meh. I love talking to a hardcore atheist. Their views are always so particular...
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Evolution is evolution whether it's on a large scale or small. Your purposed massive difference is both irrelevant and doesn't prove the existence of Creationism any better than if you had not suggested it at all.
I mentioned human races like 4 times. Africans, Middle Easterns, Asians, etc.
Morality is a personal attribute designed in all creatures, but that man has defined as only being something he can understand because he thinks himself better than all other creatures. A Christian might say "I won't rob a bank today because God will reward me for being sinless" but an Atheist would say "I won't rob a bank today because it would be a dick thing to do." An animal would protect its young because it cares about them, but you would probably just call it animal instinct, yet I can assure you that a human mother would do the same thing for the same reason, and she doesn't need a deity to tell her so.
Christianity is a religion based on a monotheistic God and a male-dominated organization. It suggests that a single deity created the world, the heavens, and all things within it and that mankind is the Chosen Creature, as it is supposedly designed in God's own image. God dictates that man should follow his laws and worship him above all other idols and myths. He sends plagues and death and suffering onto anyone he deems unworthy. Early Christianity bastardizes many older myths, such as turning the Winter Solstice into Christmas (even though, were Christ real and actually born somewhere, it would likely be in October, as shepherds don't tend their flocks in mid December.) The remainder of the doctrine effectively convinces a population that they are to act in accordance with a Bronze Age book that no longer applies to their lives in any meaningful way, and that they will be tortured eternally in a non-provable afterlife if they do so much as wear clothing of two different fibers.
Modern Christians don't know most about their book because they have it read to them by preachers and pastors, who are well documented as twisting the bible to suit their biases or leaving out whole bits of scripture that wouldn't seem relevant today. The same bit that condemns homosexuality has, not 2 sentences later, a bit condemning growing different crops together, or the eating of shellfish.
Your beliefs are simply blocking your vision of true, natural reality. Physically impossible? Tell me about your talking snakes, tornadoes of fire, the entire human species coming into perfect being out of only 2 people without developing horrid deformities as is seen with inbreeding today, boats that can carry two of every creature on the planet (even those that weren't known yet), people coming back from the dead and guys walking on water.
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wow. Your answer is easier than expected.
Yush then, let's start!
1. In what way is Micro and Macro 'irrelevant'? It's on topic and does have a lot to do with the proof you presented.
But if you'd rather ignore it, as you've done, by all means go ahead.
2. No one can be sinless. Everyone's sinned. I follow God's rules because I love him. Not because I'll get rewards. It doesn't work like that, never has. There are no brownie points in this system. I'm not a perfect person who follows the rules all the time. I mess up, a lot. Christians are not perfect, we're people who actually admit we're not perfect. Those who don't probably aren't Christians in the first place.
So, therefore, the statement is incorrect. It should be "I'm not going to rob a bank today because I love/respect God enough not to." (lol, were you thinking I was some annoying goodie-two-shoes sort of person or something? -dies-)
3. Animals don't have moral views/values. They have instinct and personality, yes, but that doesn't make them human-like or give them a sense of right and wrong.
4. God doesn't make us follow a bunch of rules. He gave us freewill. The power to choose. Love is empty if it's forced. Wouldn't you agree?
5. The plagues are from the old testament. They were punishment for people (even the Jews) who would not listen and ignore his (continuous) warnings repeatedly. It doesn't happen nowadays though. Not until the end times.
6. You brought up an interesting fact. The church made Christmas an official holiday on December 25 because that was when there was an actual 'pagan' holiday on that day. We don't celebrate it because he was actually born on that day, we celebrate it to remember he was born into the world. There's a difference. lol
7. -laughs- I love confusion with stereotypes. I like to go shopping at Hot Topic btw. But somehow, I don't think I'll be sent to hell for it. I don't dress like an Amish or a real homeschoolery n00b...
Some people were brought up to be really formal and respectful when they go to church, so they do sometimes dress like that. There's nothing in the bible telling us what to wear, which makes me laugh and wonder why people are sometimes so judgmental about it.
It doesn't really matter what we wear, any day of the week, as long as we're respect at the appropriate times I would think. But I'm not one to show off my body either. I respect myself and would prefer not to be a stumbling block to boys.
8. You say that the bible/doctrine is outdated. It isn't. I don't use 'thees' and 'thous'. In fact, I hate em.
But if you're talkin about everyday life and such and how doctrine applies to 'modern' day life, it still applies very well. Humans do the exact same sins they did thousands of years ago. This is nothing new, no matter what form problems today might take.
9. I've read my bible from beginning to end. Sixty-six books in all. Most of the Christians I know read their bible for daily devotion and such. Sunday isn't the only day we open our books, ya know. That would be so empty and fruitless. If you want a plant to grow, you water it frequently.
10. There are some people who twist the bible's words to fit their views. It's sad and annoying. Then there are others who really do know what they're talking about. It's not just the church. You find that sort of thing everywhere.
11. I for one, like to look at the whole passage when a verse is taken out of context. It's a smart thing to do. Though on your part, it would be better if you could tell me what verse it was. I wanna see the verse about shellfish. I've never heard of it. It sounds funny.
On my part though, I really hate debates about homo topics. Everyone always gets angry and offended. meh.
12. Ah. Physically impossible. I was going to add more, but it was dinner time and I couldn't finish. So late at night...I mean early in the morning, I'll explain.
From my understanding, Evolutionists believe that the first DNA/living cell was either formed in water or a chemical pool. Neither is possible. Water decomposes anything and the mathamatical odds of a single DNA pattern forming is 1 in 10^400,000. It's like winning the lottery every day for 15 billion years straight.
Of course, we're ignoring the fact how the water/chemical swamp got there in the first place.
It's physically impossible to create something out of nothing.
13. Oi, need I remind you that God created physics in the first place. He can easily defy them if he wanted to. Is that really hard to understand or something?
14. Inbreeding wasn't as bad as it was wayyyyy back then. Nowadays we all have issues. lol. Our poor genetics are wearing down. This world isn't going to last forever ya know.
Right. I tried my best to cover everything.
Oh, I'll make it a goal btw to not include bible verses. And I'll do this all by memory too. Also, I'm not judging or trying to convert you. I respect your opinions, even if they differ from mine.
PS. As I reread your reply over again, it almost sounded like you were angry. Did I offend you?
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I'm not offended by people with different opinions.
However, skimming some of your retorts, I can come to the conclusion that you are an apologist for your deity and it warrants no further response from me, as it would be pointless.
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Whatever. lol.
If you can't even come up with decent retorts or admit defeat, please, don't hesitate to insult me. It won't bother me in the least. I definitely won't take it as an immature way of avoiding questions. -sarcasm-
If you had read my reply word for word instead of skimmed, I might have taken your insult more seriously. haha.
Now I feel bad, I wasted so much time on the reply. Oh well, debating's fun. Atheists are hilarious.
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You think a magical man in the sky created everything. Religious people are insane.
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lol. Magic doesn't exist.
And I like being insane, welcome to the asylum, Atheist. :]]]]
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'Christians are not perfect, we're people who actually admit we're not perfect. Those who don't probably aren't Christians in the first place. '
Not true, A LOT of people admit they're not perfect, not just Christians. Loads of my athiest friends, agnostic friends and religious friends alike know they're not perfect, so it's somewhat offensive to them.
By saying 'Those who don't probably aren't Christians in the first place.' That sounds pretty arogant, as if your trying to make Christianity sound superiour.
Defend your views and such, just remember other people have different views and that we should respect them, not go slating them.
Just saying ^-^
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And for the record, "true" Christianity isn't even about controlling other people. That's just man's corruption of it. True Christianity is all about loving others.
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You, sir/mam, are awesome
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True Christianity, as it was in the beginning, it a barbaric novel or a wrathful God who impregnated a woman with himself (basically being the first "motherfucker") and then had him tortured and executed because he was pissed off that people were doing exactly what he knew they would. The "love thy neighbor as you love thyself" thing was a modern twist on the tale, similar to the creation of Purgatory for unbaptized children and good-doing atheists, and Tything so people can buy tickets into Heaven.
The original God was petty enough to send bears after children because they made fun of a guy for being bald. Your religion is an abomination.
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I can see how you would get that impression. But really, the entire story of the Bible is how a loving, merciful God, physically became a human (being both God and Man) and died one of the most horrible deaths imaginable, just so that we could be forgiven of our sins so we wouldn't have to die.
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God impregnated a woman with himself, tortured himself, had himself put on a cross, tortured and killed because he was pissed off that people were doing things he already knew they were going to do. God sent bears to kill children because they made fun of a guy that was bald.
God supposedly created the universe, but now all he can do is imprint his face on burnt toast? No. God doesn't exist, and the universe is an inevitable outcome of the things that already existed. Just because we can't perfectly recreate it doesn't mean God did it. God just adds more questions to an already complex problem.
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With the story concerning the bears, they were youths, not children. And it was all about respect. They were mocking a prophet, one who spoke the very Word of God. As for the impregnation thing, no God did not actually have sex with her, but He did plant the seed and fertilized her womb. And no, He did not torture Himself and die because He was pissed off. He was tortured and brutally murdered so that we could once again have direct access to Him. As a holy, righteous God (holy means sacred, set apart), if we were to approach Him in our wicked, wretched state, we would be killed instantly by His glory. So in order for us to have communion with Him again, He suffered and died so we could be made holy ourselves.
By the way, did you know that there is one common belief that both evolutionists and Christians both believe? We both believe in a supernatural force that cannot be seen, weighed, measured, or interacted with, and that this force is what holds the universe together? You would call it dark matter. I call Him God. And no, I don't believe that God imprints His face on pieces of toast. That's all nothing but publicity stunts that give false impressions. I can't make you believe. Nor do I wish to, but I have had some personal experiences that I cannot explain any other way than to say that it was God's help. When I was younger, I had a hole in my right leg bone. The doctors were concerned about it, and they said that I could possibly need surgery. My parents prayed, several members from my church prayed, and when I went in for more x-rays, the hole was gone. Completely filled in. The doctors had no explanation for it.
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Wow, so they were youths, and that makes it okay? I'd like to see God send some bears my way because I blaspheme him all day long.
So God didn't actually have sex to impregnate a woman? So not-pentrating-rape is okay? I'm sure Joseph was pretty happy with that. Oh wait, he wasn't. He wasn't real either.
God had to unfuck the world by killing himself/his only son? He created the universe and then he has to brutally torture himself to make it all okay again? Why not just snap his fingers? Seems that's all he needed to start it all. Other faiths will argue your logic on why that whole fandangle took place anyway. Catholics believe Christ died for them, that they are sinners struggling to be saints, but Protestants believe they are saints struggling with sin. Same story, different belief, both are hogwash.
Evolutionists don't believe in anything. If you've been told otherwise, you've been given false information, or you've been spoken to by religious people who think Darwinism is a religion.
Dark Matter isn't a supernatural force that needs to be believed in to be true. It can be measured statistically.
Your experiences were farts or hallucinations or both.
The hole in your leg probably filled in by natural means such as osseous reconstruction. I don't know the circumstances of your plight but I can assure you, prayer wasn't what fixed it. Prayer has been researched and it has been proven ineffective. In fact, studies show that people who know they are being prayed for do worse than those who don't, or aren't being prayed for, because when nothing happens, they take it as a personal fault, and the depression can lead to other malignant symptoms.
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Tell me, friend, do you believe in free choice? That you are in control of all your choices? Free choice is why God had to die. He wanted people, not robots.
And I assure you, the hole filled in fairly quickly. How long does osseous reconstruction take? Because it took a fairly large hole in my leg bone to fill in in just a matter of days. And I've done my research on dark matter: they can't explain it. It isn't a part of the "natural" universe in the way that we see it, unlike antimatter, therefore it is a "super"natural force. And everyone has faith, whether they realize it or not. Faith isn't even bound to "religion". If you believe in something, you have faith in that. You have faith in other people. For example, if someone makes you a promise, you have faith in them that they will carry through with it. And Mary could have said no. When God came to her and told her His plan, she had every right to say no. To choose someone else to carry His Son.
No ever told me that evolutionists have faith. It's simply a conclusion founded on the basis of the very definition of the word "faith". And for the record, no, I don't believe myself a saint. I see myself as a sinner, like everyone else, struggling to understand salvation.
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Free choice was disproven when brain studies concluded that behavior is perpetuated before the conscious mind realizes it. Our reactions are simply that, pre-determined reactions to certain stimuli. If our arm itches, our brain has already sent a signal to scratch it (or not) before you're comprehended that the itch is there.
As I said before, I don't know the circumstances of the hole in your leg, so I can't tell you what I think probably happened. I can only say for sure that prayer was not the reason it filled in. If you think it did, then you must also, by default, believe nothing happens without a reason, so if God put the hole there then God already intended to get rid of it without your family's hand-clasping-begging.
Faith in other people isn't the same as faith in deities. Please recognize this fact.
Evolutionists see evidence and assert that it is fact based upon them. There is no need for faith.
Sin doesn't exist.
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To the matter of free choice: One thing is scratching an itch, without concsciously thinking about it, but what about actual choice - I mean, choosing whether to help this old lady across the street or reach your bus in time, or what to wear for school - how can that be disproven?
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That's isn't what free choice is. Free choice is far more than simply itching an arm. That's reaction time. Free choice is in the ability to think. To plan out our future. Not simple second by second reaction. Animals itch themselves all the time, yet we are vastly different from them.
How aren't they the same? God is a person, just like we are. We were created in His image, and yes, I'd say He's my friend, not some master overlord. That said, He is still the One who created me, and you. Quite frankly, yes, I do believe that there isn't a reason for everything.
You haven't even remotely convinced me that evolution is a fact. It's still a theory.
And if sin doesn't exist, then why is it wrong to rape someone? To murder someone? Is it perfectly fine to lie? To cheat? To steal? Every time you break a moral (lie, cheat, steal) is a sin. Which makes everyone a sinner. Don't you agree that we are all equal?
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It's funny that you keep dismissing all my examples as exclusively unto themselves.
God is man-made.
I don't care if you think evolution happened or not, cuz it did whether you accept it or not. You'll probably say God loves me even if I don't believe in him, right? Whatever.
Sin is a man-made construct, a definition of something we understand is fundamentally wrong. Rape is wrong because it's harmful and traumatic. Murder is detrimental because someone, you know, DIES. Those who care about that person are harmed emotionally, maybe in other ways too, by that person's loss. Lying can be beneficial, such as telling a child that their dead family member is in a better place (even if you can't prove it) because the child should be spared the pain of loss before he/she can come to terms with it. Lying for personal gain, at the expense of others, is wrong for all the same reasons murder and rape is. You don't need religion to know that doing bad things is wrong. The first time you fall and scrape your knee, you understand that pain is not a pleasant thing, and so you don't go out of your way to make other people fall and scrape their knees, because you care about them and want them to be happy.
And no, we are not equal. Some people are way better than both of us, some are much worse. We are what we make of ourselves and how we impact the lives of those around us. Today I was entrusted as the Executor of my parents' will, in case something happens when they go on vacation this week. That makes me better than you, at least to them. Vice versa is true about me in comparison to you as seen through the eyes of people who know you, but not me.
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Yes, but why is murder wrong? If there is no higher power, then why is there even "right" or "wrong"? Why should we care about other people then? I mean, there isn't anything after this life, right? We live, we love, and then we die. And that's it. So why not make the most of it? I mean, clearly morality is just a man-made thing as well, right? We're basically nothing but dumb animals ourselves. So why do we restrain ourselves with all these laws and regulations? Why do we deny ourselves the pure joy of "free" living? Animals certainly don't worry about such things. Why should we?
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It's "wrong" by definition of the word, a creation of man. Language is such a fickle thing. In the simplest form, murder is simply incompatible with life, and when the whole point to life is to perpetuate itself, murder is terminating that process and therefore not productive. There is no real such thing as right or wrong, only that which we agree or disagree with. We call murder wrong because we are emotional creatures that don't take kindly to life being snuffed out. Rape is wrong too simply because we can empathize with the victim. Those who don't understand these boundaries are mentally deficient, and we call them sociopaths.
If you need the Bible to explain to you why murder is wrong, then I'm sorry you are so limited in your ability to give a damn, because I didn't grow up with the Bible and I know innately that killing someone isn't a good thing. It causes suffering and pain.
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You've failed to understand the question. You're thinking like a human. If humans are nothing but just another type of animal (for example, we are no different from apes, cats, dogs, ect.) why do we have morality? They clearly don't. Animals only have a sense of "right or wrong" because that's how we train our dogs or our cats. You let a dog run wild, they eventually form into packs. And once a dog starts killing, they take a liking to it. Meaning that they simply kill for the pleasure of chasing after and killing. You claim there is no God. That there is no higher power. Then what separates us from them? From a cow, or a chicken? Or even a pig? How are we any different than them? Male animals clearly don't always "ask" permission to mate with a female. Hardly, they fight for that right if given the chance. So why are we any different? That is what I'm asking. Why do we have ethics if we are just animals?
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I keep explaining to you that morality is a mechanism of humanity, but it's effects can be seen throughout the spectrum of living things. We just have language that muddles it all up into groups of black and white, good and evil, moral and immoral.
Dogs kill because they are carnivores, designed to eat other animals. That is the fact of their existence. You can't apply right and wrong to a creature who, by design, MUST kill in order to survive. It's not that they take a liking to it, it's that they are designed to behave that way, just as we are designed to behave how we do. If dogs or other carnivores stopped killing, they would die. You wouldn't stop eating just because it caused another creature's death, would you? Whether it's another animal or a plant, something has to die in order for you to live. There is no morality in that. The morality comes in when you torture the animal before eating it. There was an autistic woman who designed the corrals for cattle being lead to slaughter, because it calmed them down. Cattle that are terrified release chemicals into their blood that makes the meat taste bad later.
There is no God and there is nothing that separates us from other animals, except our capacity to create things unnaturally.
Dolphins rape. Humans rape. Bonobos have sex to bond with members of their group. Lions maul the cubs of prior patriarchs in order to bring the females back into heat. We see some of these things as horrible, but that's because we live a different sort of life. But we humans are also capable of torture, infanticide, sacrifice, neglect, war, destruction, apathy and so forth. You think humans are so different from animals because we have morality? I see greater injustice and suffering caused by your so-called moral base than any other thing in the world. A lion crushing the skull of a cub (in like 2 seconds) is far more merciful than some of the things your religion has done to non-believers over the centuries. Only humans have been capable of creating some of the most atrocious, lengthy and barbarous acts of cruelty known in this world.
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The tiger shark one made me laugh, I couldn't help itXD That aside this was very interesting to read as I like scientific things like evolution, proven facts that evolution was/is real. Very informative and I love you for posting all that^^. Forgive me if I stalk this deviation over the course of the next day or so just to read the comments you get for thisXD
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As an "educated" Christian, I'd really like to see these "missing links" that are actually a "must" for the Evolution theory. Furthermore, if Evolution is fact, why is it still referenced as the "Evolution Theory"? Mind you, I'm not trying to be condescending. Nor am I looking down on you for your own beliefs. Either way, faith is involved, regardless of what we believe. And I do agree with you in that Christians need to know more about other beliefs/theories/religions before they simply spout off whatever comes into their heads first. Personally, what I find hilarious is the fact that both sides claim to see "holes" or "fallacies" in the other's belief system, which are, truth be told, more or less misunderstandings on both sides. I'm sick and tired of the arguing. I want debate and discussion, not anger and frustration. But seriously, if evolution is indeed fact, then where are the missing links that everyone claims to have existed? Honestly, I believe that the Flood (a myth that is actually shared by *many* religions besides Christianity and Judaism) explains why the fossil record is the way it is. And why there are fossilized giant mollusks high up in the Himalaya's. Now, I'm not going to go into the argument of "old earth vs. young earth". Honestly, I believe that it's somewhat youngish, but I can see why some would claim it's old. That's just not a big deal to me, seeing as none of us actually witnessed the creation/beginning.
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I'm not going to bother reading all of the replies to this or explain to you how I see things, because that doesn't really matter since it seems someone else has beaten me to it. I just wanted to say that there need to be more religious people like you who are willing to learn or discuss and not just spew shit everywhere.
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Scientific terminology isn't the same as Layman's terminology.
In Science, a Theory is effectively common law of nature. The only reason it's not outright a LAW law is because you can't force evolution to happen in a lab setting, like you can with gravity. You can coax it, as has been seen with a form of bacteria that evolved (over several dozen generations) to live in a citric-acid based environment, but you can't force a tiger to grow gills by submerging it into a tank of water. Evolution is far too...how to put it...lengthy a process to be observed in a lab? Hence the "over 4-8 million years ago" bit with human evolution. You have to look at the fossil record and DNA/gene analysis to put pieces together over time-frames that last more than a human lifetime. That's also why there's so much variation among the similar groups of animals. It's why there's lions and tigers and leopards and housecats, rather than just one generic feline. They all adapted to do specific things in the environment within which they existed.
The flood likely was a very large exaggeration of a true flood that did happen around the Mediterranean. However, the myth that some guy built a boat that had all the animals of the world on board is ridiculous on every level. Not only is that impossible, as not all animals of the world were known at that time, but a boat of the size and grandeur as would be needed to perpetuate the myth would take more resources and time than most whole nations have available to them today, much less one 600 year old man and his family.
The Himalayas were under water millions of years ago (and in fact, that very mountain range wasn't always a mountain range...it was created AFTER continents collided, and the land that formed them WAS flatland beforehand.) It's why we also find giant crocodile skeletons in the middle of modern day deserts, and shark bones in the middle of Texas. The world wasn't always as it is now.
The earth is 4.6 billion years old and has experienced numerous traumas throughout its existence. It hasn't always looked like it does today and hasn't always been as big, organized or beautiful. It was once no different than Mars, or a common asteroid. There are scientific models that can accurately articulate the formation of the earth given predictions of past events, including the splitting of the earth by a large collision that inevitably lead to the creation of our moon. We may not have been there to see it, but we know enough about how the universe works to be able to figure out what did happen by experimenting until we end up with a result that matches today's reality.
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Yes, evolution takes a long period of time, therefore it cannot be perfectly proven. But there should still be "transitional" phases. Furthermore, there are actually two types of evolution: micro and macro. Micro evolution stays within a species, which is how there are so many different types (like with dogs. They are all canines (including wolves, foxes, and coyotes), yet they are all distinctly different from one another). Macro evolution is the change of one species into another. Where is the evidence of this? Somewhere, at one point or another, there should be a transitional phase of one species becoming another. But there isn't.
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Transitional phases are in the top 3 pictures of my chart and you're still struggling with this?
Microbes -> Amoeba -> Split that would lead to plants and animals -> Fish -> Amphibians -> Splitting off into what would become Mammals, Reptiles and Birds -> Etc etc
You need more evidence besides what's right in front of your face? If you can't see it, you won't ever see it, and I won't argue it more, as it would be as pointless as trying to prove the ocean to a goldfish.
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Ok, ok, geez. No need to do personal attacks! That's precisely what I hate about these arguments. Everyone always has to be so darn aggressive and cock the "you're wrong, I'm right" attitude. Quite frankly, if it did indeed take millions of years, then yes, there would be transitional phases. Otherwise, it all would've happened just suddenly. For example, a fish laid an egg and a frog came out. That is essentially what you are saying. But since you claim that it takes millions of years, then where's the evidence? Of course there would be transitional phases! It's just that no one has ever found any, nor will they ever find any!
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What part of the chart was lost to you? I said like 4 times that evolution doesn't work in the sense that a fish craps out a frog. Stop putting words in my mouth and fucking read.
The transitional phases are all around you. Look at the horse.
[link]
If you're still struggling with transitional phases than I'm not sure I understand what you're looking for. Evolution doesn't "transition" through the course of a single animal's lifetime. It's slow changes over long periods of time. Sometimes creatures don't change much at all. Like sharks. About the only thing different about them today from several thousand years ago is how much smaller they are. Megaladon was a massive Great White.
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Evolution totally screwed us on having tiny handheld horses. -_-
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I don't know what you mean o_O
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The ancestor of modern horses was itty bitty and unchanged would have been a boon for mankind. 
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Then that's all nothing but microevolution. Therefore, by your very reasoning, our very DNA patterns should all be very similar. If we are all still evolving, which means even we are a transitional phase, then where are our predecessors? Where are our ancestors showing what we used to be? And "slow changes over time"? Seriously? That's what I just said. And I did read, thank you.
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You still don't understand what a transitional phase is if you aren't seeing how, long story short, a small horse became a very large horse over several million years. Or how a small rat-like creature became a human over a similarly long period of time. You'll have to be far more clear on what you're looking for if you want me to be able to explain it to you on that level, because small horse -> large horse is a transition at it's very inception.
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I think I actually understand his question, and I think I can answer it. Flamian, you ask about Macroevolution, but really, Macroevolution is a byproduct of lots and lots of Microevolution. They aren't separate things, one comes from the other. While it's true that there are gaps in the fossil record, this does not constitute evidence against evolutionary theory. Scientists evaluate hypotheses and theories by figuring out what we would expect to observe if a particular idea were true and then seeing if those expectations are borne out. If evolutionary theory were true, then we'd expect there to have been transitional forms connecting ancient species with their ancestors and descendents. This expectation has been borne out. Paleontologists have found many fossils with transitional features, and new fossils are discovered all the time. However, if evolutionary theory were true, we would not expect all of these forms to be preserved in the fossil record. Many organisms don't have any body parts that fossilize well, *the environmental conditions for forming good fossils are rare*, and of course, we've only discovered a small percentage of the fossils that might be preserved somewhere on Earth. So scientists expect that for many evolutionary transitions, there will be gaps in the fossil record.
So if that doesn't answer your question about the gaps, this site might help. It's for teachers, but it's easy enough to teach yourself this stuff when you read it. [link]
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Thanks for jumping in. However, your reply was made to me, so Flamian didn't see it, and he wouldn't be able to reply even if he had as I banned him for arguing nonsense in two separate threads =/
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I understand perfectly fine. That's microevolution. It happens all the time. WITHIN a SPECIES. You aren't explaining how a microbe grew INTO a horse. Or a parakeet. Or cat. Or you and me. That is what a TRANSITIONAL PHASE is. They are the transition of one species into another. A small horse and a large horse are both horses. Different breeds, same species. It's diversity.
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