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So I mention these 2 a few times and both have a particular set of strengths they also have a set of weaknesses that make them the weakest entries in the fate anime line up typemoon has under its belt. which is ashame cause there some good ideas in them but they aren't executed very well or focused on much either. so what makes these 2 the weakest of the line up?

with Apocrypha it's main issue is there's a clear message on humanity and faith and a bit of religion there due to the fact our 2 rulers were people of god in different eras and when you analyze their 2 perspectives you can't really say either one is right or wrong which was something it could have benefited from doing. the other issue is the miscast. because of what this wanted to say on humanity and faith at the very least a lot of the servants picked out even the ones who lasted till the last few episodes did not really offer much to the plot. like at all. Achilles he's just kind of there to make things look more epic and has his history with Chiron but beyond that he added nothing to the story. that's just one example cause then you have.... Spartacus... yeah I think that speaks for itself how pointless he was since his debut in this. People also had issues with Jack the loli ripper. while I do get the idea of what that was aiming for and i did like the creepy vibes they gave off with her at the beginning they never stayed consistent with it then you have the jackasses on blogs and youtube commenting the spoilers on who was jack in that early part which god damn it guys learn to understand not everyone reads the light novels or manga to these things. anyway Jack was also kind of pointless even just reading the stuff cut out from the novel where yeah you get more depth but nothing that really goes anywhere. speaking of the novel which was the source material compressed so many things in 5 volumes that A-1 didn't stop to think about what they should change cause they only made the compression worse in how they rushed some of the episodes. the other issue is how a lot of this anime constantly jumps from one place to another. like i know you need to jump to focus on other characters but it happens so often that it got ridiculous especially in the first half of the season. The other obvious problem is of course the animation. on the surface it looks nice and has a lot of that Ufotable look until you realize this A-1 pictures and they take a lot of short cuts for projects that aren't fairy tail or SAO. which even then that's rocky at best. I mean yeah compared to normal humans a servant would look to be super human but even studio deen and especially Ufotable knew better than to do what was basically DBZ speed ups. they were faster but still slow enough for masters to see them fighting. All of these things make the story go all over the place. They would've had better luck following the original idea they had where Bekei, Gintoki, and Saint George would've fit the roles of what's going to replace certain other servants who weren't needed especially cause this had a lot more greek themed servants than fate stay night where yeah I get people love greek mythology but learn to mix it up a bit. you're summoning heroes of different eras and locations and having 14 of them would've made a great mix up mash except for maybe changing out Chiron for Arjuna since those 2 are forever bound to find each other and kill each other off.

the other issue and biggest problem is Sieg. Just what the fuck was the author thinking with that one? He has little to no personality even at points he should've started developing something. you also have the no matter how you want to explain it were literally plot armor devices where he gets killed but somehow still comes back from the dead and somehow gains the power of a servant and turns into siegfried and at the end turns into the dragon fafnir i think is what it was and somehow finds the supposed less than 1% chance of the other side of the world that hardly anyone finds which was already after Amakusa Shirou made his wish on the greater grail. all of that shit just happened to work out for him and the supposed consequences of his actions weren't even that. A lot that also has to do with the fact the fate series whether because of Nasu or someone else at Typemoon have so many complications to how this works that there's little wiggle room to make these things their own universe with different rules since even fate extra has to follow these same rules despite existing in a digital world. and it's all of these complex rules that are explained yet not explained that the author of apocrypha took more liberties than he should have to basically settle on a cop out ending and somehow call that last scene a happily ever after. Taking that into account a lot of Sieg's problems have to do with the fact that was clearly someone thinking they needed a "Shirou Emiya" type character and that's not what you're supposed to do in setting up a story set in a different universe. you can even call the jeanne and sieg relationship up to the final scene of the last episode a copy and paste of shirou and artoria. yes there's an actual novel of shirou finds artoria again under similar circumstances to get to avalon. This also goes into how this was a rare story that didn't need a romance subplot when the concept would've been more than enough to get it going. following sieg are the masters. with the exception of Mordred's master who looks like anime dawg the bounty hunter, every master was essentially pointless and not all that memorable. for god's sake 6 of the red team's masters were removed off screen. that's how lazy and bad you knew this was written. you have this potentially great set up for a grail war and you fuck it all up by removing half of those masters off screen.

that's a lot of my issues with apocrypha and things that would fix it easily is first off replace spartacus with kintoki as he would've provided more entertainment, replace achilles with saint george, and since Karna can only be beaten under really extreme circumstances if Arjuna is not there then just trade him out with Benkei, and as much fun as Astolfo is yeah the story would benefit trading him off for Martha since again a lot of story seemed centered on humanity and faith so a collection of famous priests in history would work toward that, and replace Jack with Shuten cause if there's one servant who can handle doing what she wants with no regard to her master or anyone else they way they were going for with jack it would've been shuten since her connection to kintoki is a very strong one. another easy fix would be to have this approved for at least 48 episodes cause no matter how you plan it there's too many characters to cover in just 24 episodes, and finally a simple fix is actually make the masters worth knowing about and develop them a bit like Mordred and her master who probably the best development despite how little screen time they had. and finally if you're insistent on keeping sieg as a character then actually develop him and actually have him learn about humanity from multiple people's perspectives and if he is to be a central key part in who wins the war have it make actual god damn sense instead of just making it look like you're giving him free passes on how he survives or can do this crazy shit. like don't make him a servant but give him a role similar to like illya or iri who had a role in summoning the grail or how illya obtains the magic of heaven's feel like how we're gonna see it in the next FSN movie. and finally don't force a romance subplot unless it ties into something or it helps develop the characters more.

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Last Encore. one of the main things that worked in its favor is definitely the animation and music from the opening and end credits. so the problems with this are more obvious than apocrypha where 1, it's the rushed pacing of the story but a lot of that looks like had more to do with how you can tell the studio has an idea of where to take their story and what they had in mind till something happened last minute and forced to rush and even change what they were planning. that issue already has an obvious fix that doesn't need telling or explaining why. There's all these points where you can tell whatever the original idea was there's going to be a lot of risk in what they were doing which could have paid off in the long run.

So obviously this next issue is How do you go through a fate extra story with no Nero Noble Phantasm, no Tamamo, or Emiya since regardless of which story line you followed in the original or which version of the story you read in manga format those 3 are key and central to this universe especially in a story where shit starts over every time Hakuno dies like Rezero. the reason I say that is cause you know they were gonna follow the Buddha plot points cause of how that beginning portion started and yet didn't even follow through on that. next issue is while I know the masters have to fight their own battles too what the fuck was up with Hakuno's berserk state thing. like why was that a thing? was there a point in any of the Extra storylines where that's a thing? the other issue is Hakuno himself where in the games it's your choice to be male or female and you know the male version has a personality if you read the mangas and yet he was about as boring as sieg was in apocrypha and again this goes into the "Shirou Emiya" archetype. I don't know what it is but for some reason typemoon is at the assumption we're always expecting that character type even though Shirou works only because his character type is centered around Fate Stay Night and as kaleide has show shirou done right works even when he's not the main focus. but this was not that story and on top of that male Hakuno has plenty of spotlight in the manga but Female Hakuno was still more popular with the fans and in fact people wanted her to be in the anime as Nero's master and you know there was a lot of potentially good ideas with them cause of episode 9. yeah there would've been a lot of yuri undertones but that works for Nero since she's bi sexual due to how as roman emperor she had concubines and boy toys but that development and relationship had potential to be as good as what Waiver had with Ishkandar in Fate Zero. the battles for the most part felt rushed and even I'm not entirely sure what was the point of giving Rin and that other girl servant powers. I'm not really sure where that subplot was supposed to go but you know it was cut short due to having to end it early.

a lot of these issues are easily fixable had the studio not been a short stick and forced to compress and change so much of what they set up here and you know it's true cause this is coming from the same studio and people who made the monogatari series the wild successes they've been for the last few years. so you know there's real talented people on the last encore project where this shouldn't have dropped the ball like it did.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

so with all that said what do you guys think could've been done to help these 2 series avoid the... well fates they ended up getting where apocrypha ended up dividing the fanbase and pretty much ended on a terrible note and last encore had a lot of bad luck land on it making it come off as rushed. if you got thoughts put them in the comments below.

Description
So I mention these 2 a few times and both have a particular set of strengths they also have a set of weaknesses that make them the weakest entries in the fate anime line up typemoon has under its belt. which is ashame cause there some good ideas in them but they aren't executed very well or focused on much either. so what makes these 2 the weakest of the line up?

with Apocrypha it's main issue is there's a clear message on humanity and faith and a bit of religion there due to the fact our 2 rulers were people of god in different eras and when you analyze their 2 perspectives you can't really say either one is right or wrong which was something it could have benefited from doing. the other issue is the miscast. because of what this wanted to say on humanity and faith at the very least a lot of the servants picked out even the ones who lasted till the last few episodes did not really offer much to the plot. like at all. Achilles he's just kind of there to make things look more epic and has his history with Chiron but beyond that he added nothing to the story. that's just one example cause then you have.... Spartacus... yeah I think that speaks for itself how pointless he was since his debut in this. People also had issues with Jack the loli ripper. while I do get the idea of what that was aiming for and i did like the creepy vibes they gave off with her at the beginning they never stayed consistent with it then you have the jackasses on blogs and youtube commenting the spoilers on who was jack in that early part which god damn it guys learn to understand not everyone reads the light novels or manga to these things. anyway Jack was also kind of pointless even just reading the stuff cut out from the novel where yeah you get more depth but nothing that really goes anywhere. speaking of the novel which was the source material compressed so many things in 5 volumes that A-1 didn't stop to think about what they should change cause they only made the compression worse in how they rushed some of the episodes. the other issue is how a lot of this anime constantly jumps from one place to another. like i know you need to jump to focus on other characters but it happens so often that it got ridiculous especially in the first half of the season. The other obvious problem is of course the animation. on the surface it looks nice and has a lot of that Ufotable look until you realize this A-1 pictures and they take a lot of short cuts for projects that aren't fairy tail or SAO. which even then that's rocky at best. I mean yeah compared to normal humans a servant would look to be super human but even studio deen and especially Ufotable knew better than to do what was basically DBZ speed ups. they were faster but still slow enough for masters to see them fighting. All of these things make the story go all over the place. They would've had better luck following the original idea they had where Bekei, Gintoki, and Saint George would've fit the roles of what's going to replace certain other servants who weren't needed especially cause this had a lot more greek themed servants than fate stay night where yeah I get people love greek mythology but learn to mix it up a bit. you're summoning heroes of different eras and locations and having 14 of them would've made a great mix up mash except for maybe changing out Chiron for Arjuna since those 2 are forever bound to find each other and kill each other off.

the other issue and biggest problem is Sieg. Just what the fuck was the author thinking with that one? He has little to no personality even at points he should've started developing something. you also have the no matter how you want to explain it were literally plot armor devices where he gets killed but somehow still comes back from the dead and somehow gains the power of a servant and turns into siegfried and at the end turns into the dragon fafnir i think is what it was and somehow finds the supposed less than 1% chance of the other side of the world that hardly anyone finds which was already after Amakusa Shirou made his wish on the greater grail. all of that shit just happened to work out for him and the supposed consequences of his actions weren't even that. A lot that also has to do with the fact the fate series whether because of Nasu or someone else at Typemoon have so many complications to how this works that there's little wiggle room to make these things their own universe with different rules since even fate extra has to follow these same rules despite existing in a digital world. and it's all of these complex rules that are explained yet not explained that the author of apocrypha took more liberties than he should have to basically settle on a cop out ending and somehow call that last scene a happily ever after. Taking that into account a lot of Sieg's problems have to do with the fact that was clearly someone thinking they needed a "Shirou Emiya" type character and that's not what you're supposed to do in setting up a story set in a different universe. you can even call the jeanne and sieg relationship up to the final scene of the last episode a copy and paste of shirou and artoria. yes there's an actual novel of shirou finds artoria again under similar circumstances to get to avalon. This also goes into how this was a rare story that didn't need a romance subplot when the concept would've been more than enough to get it going. following sieg are the masters. with the exception of Mordred's master who looks like anime dawg the bounty hunter, every master was essentially pointless and not all that memorable. for god's sake 6 of the red team's masters were removed off screen. that's how lazy and bad you knew this was written. you have this potentially great set up for a grail war and you fuck it all up by removing half of those masters off screen.

that's a lot of my issues with apocrypha and things that would fix it easily is first off replace spartacus with kintoki as he would've provided more entertainment, replace achilles with saint george, and since Karna can only be beaten under really extreme circumstances if Arjuna is not there then just trade him out with Benkei, and as much fun as Astolfo is yeah the story would benefit trading him off for Martha since again a lot of story seemed centered on humanity and faith so a collection of famous priests in history would work toward that, and replace Jack with Shuten cause if there's one servant who can handle doing what she wants with no regard to her master or anyone else they way they were going for with jack it would've been shuten since her connection to kintoki is a very strong one. another easy fix would be to have this approved for at least 48 episodes cause no matter how you plan it there's too many characters to cover in just 24 episodes, and finally a simple fix is actually make the masters worth knowing about and develop them a bit like Mordred and her master who probably the best development despite how little screen time they had. and finally if you're insistent on keeping sieg as a character then actually develop him and actually have him learn about humanity from multiple people's perspectives and if he is to be a central key part in who wins the war have it make actual god damn sense instead of just making it look like you're giving him free passes on how he survives or can do this crazy shit. like don't make him a servant but give him a role similar to like illya or iri who had a role in summoning the grail or how illya obtains the magic of heaven's feel like how we're gonna see it in the next FSN movie. and finally don't force a romance subplot unless it ties into something or it helps develop the characters more.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Last Encore. one of the main things that worked in its favor is definitely the animation and music from the opening and end credits. so the problems with this are more obvious than apocrypha where 1, it's the rushed pacing of the story but a lot of that looks like had more to do with how you can tell the studio has an idea of where to take their story and what they had in mind till something happened last minute and forced to rush and even change what they were planning. that issue already has an obvious fix that doesn't need telling or explaining why. There's all these points where you can tell whatever the original idea was there's going to be a lot of risk in what they were doing which could have paid off in the long run.

So obviously this next issue is How do you go through a fate extra story with no Nero Noble Phantasm, no Tamamo, or Emiya since regardless of which story line you followed in the original or which version of the story you read in manga format those 3 are key and central to this universe especially in a story where shit starts over every time Hakuno dies like Rezero. the reason I say that is cause you know they were gonna follow the Buddha plot points cause of how that beginning portion started and yet didn't even follow through on that. next issue is while I know the masters have to fight their own battles too what the fuck was up with Hakuno's berserk state thing. like why was that a thing? was there a point in any of the Extra storylines where that's a thing? the other issue is Hakuno himself where in the games it's your choice to be male or female and you know the male version has a personality if you read the mangas and yet he was about as boring as sieg was in apocrypha and again this goes into the "Shirou Emiya" archetype. I don't know what it is but for some reason typemoon is at the assumption we're always expecting that character type even though Shirou works only because his character type is centered around Fate Stay Night and as kaleide has show shirou done right works even when he's not the main focus. but this was not that story and on top of that male Hakuno has plenty of spotlight in the manga but Female Hakuno was still more popular with the fans and in fact people wanted her to be in the anime as Nero's master and you know there was a lot of potentially good ideas with them cause of episode 9. yeah there would've been a lot of yuri undertones but that works for Nero since she's bi sexual due to how as roman emperor she had concubines and boy toys but that development and relationship had potential to be as good as what Waiver had with Ishkandar in Fate Zero. the battles for the most part felt rushed and even I'm not entirely sure what was the point of giving Rin and that other girl servant powers. I'm not really sure where that subplot was supposed to go but you know it was cut short due to having to end it early.

a lot of these issues are easily fixable had the studio not been a short stick and forced to compress and change so much of what they set up here and you know it's true cause this is coming from the same studio and people who made the monogatari series the wild successes they've been for the last few years. so you know there's real talented people on the last encore project where this shouldn't have dropped the ball like it did.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

so with all that said what do you guys think could've been done to help these 2 series avoid the... well fates they ended up getting where apocrypha ended up dividing the fanbase and pretty much ended on a terrible note and last encore had a lot of bad luck land on it making it come off as rushed. if you got thoughts put them in the comments below.