TD-Vice [2009-09-27 10:47:01 +0000 UTC]

Well, as you pretty much pointed it out yourself, all your tracings remained in your folders and not on the net under the label of TTLY ORIGINUL STUFF DURR. That's the problem most people have - when these excercises are being put for people to observe as actual finished work.

As for me, well, I agree - tracing human body from photography can be a learning tool. However, only on a specific time scale of learning. There's a moment when you take it up, as you mentioned, when you just can't understand how the human body works, and there's a moment when you need to drop it.
However, as someone already wrote above, that too isn't a most reliable tool either. Focal lengths, angles and other photography specifics distort the actual proportions, not talking about things such as foreshortening and depth of pose.
What happens as a result of person holding onto this tool longer than for basic learning, is people who get so used to tracing from photography that they cannot imagine the right poses and anatomy themselves, ie reference from their mind.

I don't trace. Ever. I construct the pose inside my mind, in a 3ds Max like environment, rotate, work on it, then put it to paper. And then adjust it to be as close to my understanding of human anatomy as it is at the current moment. It may not be perfect or 100% correct, however, because of it, it never looks flat or unnatural.

On the other hand, I do use gridding when I need to COPY a photo to do a painting out of it. My paintings of Cho Seung Hui and Timothy McVeigh are gridded, because I needed exact semblance to the photo. But this is a completely different case - reproduction, which is a legit art genre, and a study technique that is not an art form.

To conclude, tracing can be used for learning, but it should be dropped as soon as you begin to understand how to construct the object in your mind. Otherwise, it will just prevent you from improving.

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hereticduality [2009-09-27 10:42:45 +0000 UTC]

Thank you for this ^_^

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calleena [2009-09-27 10:12:52 +0000 UTC]

Jemm, that what you did was just pose reference XD nobody complains about such things, at least I've never heard of
we must take refereces, we have to know what we're painting, drawing, stuff XD
using a photo is the same as using a wooden doll in my opinion
plus, photos as better than proportion math, we're not all the same, besides math would kill the joy XD

but as I am a self-claimed 'burn animu tracers on a stake desu' department I suggest a special category for tracing and recolouring so we can browse legal-art-theft safe
and the 'tracing' you presented wouldn't go under that category of course

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TheTortuga [2009-09-27 09:02:00 +0000 UTC]

Shit i lost my horse. Though luckily, a long time ago.

Check out [link] if you want to learn anatomy. I've only come half way on the first dvd, but i already know that it was more than worth the money. (And judging from everything you get, the price is reeeeeaaaalllyy, really nice )
Just a tip, as *"i'm"* currently *"lovin'"* my way through *"it"*.

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SamKalensky [2009-09-27 08:55:58 +0000 UTC]

The Professors refer to this as "Studying" and not "Tracing" usually. :U

There's a large difference between the two words but people seem to get them mixed up a lot...

Tracing is when you take a finished picture, use tracing paper, copy the picture line for line, and not learn a thing from it.

Studies however, like you have demonstrated here, are where you take a picture and draw the picture again from the guts down, figuring out how the artist originally did it & then learning and applying this knowledge to your own work!

You where doing a study and not tracing in the least, the only thing that was copied at all was the pose, you used this to get a better feel for anatomy, and you didn't use that in the finished work at all, so its not plagiarism, but instead a study.

The usual reason why people get so worked up about tracing, is that some people will directly trace work line for line, claim it as their own and then post it up here & hope that the public will be none the wiser, that is plagiarism and It hurts the entire community.

So say no to tracing and yes to studies.

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Artemis-Kaya [2009-09-27 08:55:07 +0000 UTC]

I've been dealing with a pretty bad artists block. I just can't draw anything I am satisfied with. Unfortunately my coloring is terrible so i can't use that as a crutch. I hadnt thought of directly tracing though, it might be what i've been looking for to get past this wall.
Thank you for the journal entry, it was a good read.

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ArdnuamA [2009-09-27 07:59:02 +0000 UTC]

You're right. Like everyone else, I despised tracing, but I did do it as a kid to improve on my Disney style and it worked, I know it'll definitely work for anatomy too. I may save a few pictures for practice now, as I know that my anatomy needs work.

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X-Rey [2009-09-27 07:55:26 +0000 UTC]

many thanks for showing me how i can learn from tracing... i knew thet its possible before but i didn't really know how... so thabks... maybe i'll start drawing/tracing more from now on...

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Harvest-Hearts [2009-09-27 06:20:53 +0000 UTC]

People have been tracing for hundreds of year even during the early renaissance with the Camera Obscura (sp). It nothing to new use something in the real world to help guide you. The painting department at my school sees it mainly as an enhancement tool because its still goes "through" you in order to make it art.

Its unquestionable good for learning how to draw especially if you're like me who went the route of photography, and painting, before attempting to illustration worldly objects. I learned depth perception and color before shape and proportions.

After a while of painting life size figures, tracing becomes more of finisher tool than training wheels. Its just much more effective and natural to work with my own arm extensions for the contour lines or my fingers have a flow to it. That and measuring head size in ratio to the rest of the body is dead easy.

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charlenequek [2009-09-27 06:06:23 +0000 UTC]

Taps you on the head :3 put in the positive light, art usually begins with tracing then as you get better, you challenge yourself to try without it. Not everyone is a gifted artist. Myself, I failed in art at school so miserably I could go to art class wearing a box over my head and teacher wont notice but slowly later on I picked it up again with a Disney book that taught me how to create characters-and after that followed plenty of practice.

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Nusquam-Vir [2009-09-27 05:46:38 +0000 UTC]

Never said it wouldn't help, though I was admittedly skeptical. I just can't force myself to do it. Like I mentioned in the poll, I see little point in tracing anothers work, unless it's the work of one of the masters, because anatomy especially is something in which about 70% of us (myself included) botch on a regular basis. So even if I did do it, it would likely be from a photograph of a live person.

I can more than feel your pain in the feeling of inferiority though. I'm going through a massive spell of that myself.

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Trapiki [2009-09-27 05:15:52 +0000 UTC]

Well said!

I'm a tracer. All of my digital art is made from photos of sketches of ideas of mine. Tracing isn't all about Animu and fanarts, people need to think about that.

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heysawbones [2009-09-27 05:04:11 +0000 UTC]

I haven't traced since I was a wee one, but when I use reference, I have a system where I force myself to compare the proportions of every body part to every other body part. What this does for me is similar to what you've shown above. It allows me to realize that the proportions I have in my head as 'correct' are simplifications, just symbols of what the human body is really like. Then I learn to adjust the rest of the body to correct for a certain proportion ratio - for instance, if I drew waists too small and forced myself to realize that the waist of a very thin person is at least as wide as their head, I can make sure that the waist is that width, and adjust all proportions off of that until everything looks the way I want it to.

I can't deny that tracing is potentially useful as a tool. Photo reference, and even color studies from other people's work can be very useful. That said, I am one of those people who takes pride in using as little on-hand reference as possible - I ensure that I have a rich brain-library of reference available by observing my surroundings often. There are people on this site with fantastic inking and composition skills, or decent painting technique, but if you take away their photo/color reference, the quality of their work backslides by about a decade. Also, I hate it when I can blatantly tell that a comic-book or cartoon style image has been referenced. Way to not get how stylizing shit works, dudes.

I just never want to be those people.

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Northshcma [2009-09-27 03:24:28 +0000 UTC]

Holy shit. I didn't expect it, but somebody on DA actually explained why tracing can be good without sounding like a plagarizing bitch.

I commend you greatly for this, as well as the anatomy/proportions lesson.

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whisingbloomer [2009-09-27 03:00:54 +0000 UTC]

this was..interesting o.O

i totally agreed with you as using some things from eye point to draw but the think you did with the tracing and then making your own piece is just brilliant o.o

Sadly I don't think I'd have the patience to do something like that, but it is truly awesome X3 Thanks so much for sharing!

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Waychou [2009-09-27 02:55:29 +0000 UTC]

yeah i used to do this. but lately i've been busy, so not much drawing at all...
i'm the opposite of the example you gave:
i can draw, and can't color to save my life.
actually lately even my lines are ugly. D:

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DarkMoonLily [2009-09-27 02:54:05 +0000 UTC]

I agree 100%. I often trace stock photos when I'm in need of practice ^^

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BleedmanFan [2009-09-27 02:17:48 +0000 UTC]

Makes perfect sense as even in college they ask you to get print outs and copy them purely for figure studies the more you do the better you get without using a print out reference

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Shatoyarn-MoonGoddes [2009-09-27 02:16:48 +0000 UTC]

you explain int in a perfect way. i wish i could fave journal lol

yes i agree how can we NOT use a reference only if your like bin drawing for like VERY long time i guess, i look in the mirror sometime or magazine pose.

even thought we can image it in are head we need a more solid picture i guess.

ok i ramble to much ^-^;

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crazylegz42 [2009-09-27 01:38:01 +0000 UTC]

Tracing always helped me understand how the lines and curves worked when I was younger. And whenever I want to learn a new style, i start by tracing screenshots and such, then when I feel I understand it, I'll go and try it out for real. Usually works out pretty good

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BlackSatechi [2009-09-27 01:34:27 +0000 UTC]

I'm learning to digitally draw as we speak. Although I've only used tracing a few times, it really does help you see shape differently and I certainly thing it something to help you learn.
I mean, if someone never gets the balls to wean themselves from tracing and just continue it, that's one thing.

But if you use it to develop a sense of line and shape, I don't see a problem at all.

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Evilness321 [2009-09-27 01:31:13 +0000 UTC]

Tracing actually helped me learn. I would trace the poses and figure out how to draw on my own from that. I learned about color and form from an actual art teacher every other year in high school xD My Granddad was my main inspiration from art. He died when I was 6, but his oil paintings are still around my Dad's house and inspire me whenever I look at them. Completely different medium/style, but still inspirational.

Tracing can help. Just depends on how you use the skills from what you learn. Or something like that anyways. My brain is not working right today, I swear...

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MoonGoddess12 [2009-09-27 01:27:26 +0000 UTC]

I agree with you, and I'm sure even using drawn images and examining the body structure is fine...it's just that when people think of "tracing," they think of people tracing the entire picture, recoloring it, and posting it as their own.

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MisterISK [2009-09-27 01:25:44 +0000 UTC]

i see where youre coming from but i dont agree. frankly i despise the whole head measured proportion system. tracing a photo gives you a purely 2D representation, it does not correspond to how the object exists in the environment. imo tracing has a very limited educational capacity.

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Whimsical-Dreams [2009-09-27 01:09:56 +0000 UTC]

Hey Crystal, thanks again for using my photograph as a reference, you made some really valid points that I feel will change a lot of peoples minds. It really is just one way of learning how to properly draw the anatomy, and getting it right with practice. I'm very happy to see that someone as artistic and talented as yourself is accepting tracing, as a lot of beginner drawers struggle and need a good tutorial such as this. I hope that many people will open their minds and accept this method too. Thanks again!
Love Sarah

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Exillior [2009-09-27 01:00:45 +0000 UTC]

Epic and way to show 'em!

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Wizard-Kgalm [2009-09-26 23:41:49 +0000 UTC]

Oh my god I'm learning a lot from you... I'm aware my art needs some serious improvement and in all honesty, I was waiting for something like this.. although I ask and ask and ask for someone to tell me something helpful, my responses are usually vague if I get anything at all.. because artists like us are overlooked and ignored. It pisses me off that no one helps the struggling artists.. You're doing a great job of that. ONce again, Thank you so much :>

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Catwagons [2009-09-26 23:23:04 +0000 UTC]

Dude, I do it to learn too.

P.S. Lololol

"If you ever say that "I never use references, ever!" - then frankly you're being an idiot."

^ ilu

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Shinigumi [2009-09-26 23:19:41 +0000 UTC]

I you so hard for this. SO HARD. It's something I've been tempted to do for years but was told that I would be "cheating" and "using a crutch" by peers and the couple of art teachers I had, so I never actually tried it. Seeing a way to more directly base the proportions on something, and especially seeing how you used it to make a separate pose for your own purposes, though...

I really hope this helps ease the stigma against things like this.

God, I so you.

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Beng91 [2009-09-26 23:12:42 +0000 UTC]

I had a long debate in my head
not on the fact that tracing can help
it was on how I should admit defeat
In the poll I picked yes, however, my comment did not show agreement due to my ignorance of how you're tracing
I was in fact referring to tracing off an illustration
however the fact still remains that I didn't give tracing enough credit
you have opened my eye to a new way for me to improve
I was wrongto a certain extent right but wrong
see I am a humble god

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frankilee79 [2009-09-26 22:46:12 +0000 UTC]

Very education,,, never thought of that,,, of course I can't freestyle draw,gun to my head. I have to trace. So what am I doing on this site? Finding out of I can learn,,, I can do abstract if I have graph paper, which I actually prefer and to have a place to post my pics.
But mostly it to learn from others

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ehrfjdkc [2009-09-26 22:41:10 +0000 UTC]

that's a pretty amazing way to use tracing to help you. I never thought of doing that...I may try it someday. :D

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Sinnocently [2009-09-26 21:58:00 +0000 UTC]

I wish I could favorite this journal. I'm bookmarking it anyways. <3

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neko-of-lotherian [2009-09-26 21:53:31 +0000 UTC]

Yay! I don't feel terrible for tracing to learn how to draw better now!

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