HOME | DD
Psyco-The-Frog — Gameplay Argument
#sonicthehedgehog #tailsmilesprower #raymanlegends #shantaehalfgeniehero #oriandtheblindforest
Published: 2017-02-24 23:09:10 +0000 UTC; Views: 2260; Favourites: 17; Downloads: 10
Redirect to original
Description
The gameplay argument, and a summery of why I don't like it. Certain games *oughmariocough* seem to get special praise for having such great gameplay, when in comparison to others, it's usually no better or worse. It's even worse once you realize it's happening for games *oughmarioagaincough* who's gameplay is far less complex as well. In the end, it just comes off as getting into a dick measuring contest with someone who doesn't need to be there.I mean, all Mario does is jump for the most part, use power-ups, and picking up and throwing enemies, yet there's no elaboration why this gameplay is better or more enjoyable then the competition, it just seems to be. Fact of the matter is, Mario is base as fuck, at least Sonic is more fun due to speed adding spectacle, and more added abilities in other games. Shantea is just as base as Mario but your power ups are tired to a meter and you don't lose them, and you can change forms on a whim once you get them(At least in the one I played, haven't played half genie hero yet), the 2D Rayman games are also base, but all characters can glide and have multiple attacks without the need for power ups. Both Outland and Ori and the Blind Forrest are Metrovania games, and if you haven't played any of those, their basically platforming RPG's. Shantae actually fits that genre but like I said, it's almost as base as Mario, and doesn't touch Badland and Ori on the subject.
I've played all these except the Shantae game I used here, but aside from Mario, all these games have good gameplay. aside from Mario and Sonic since we all likely know them, here are videos for the other games.
Shantae: Half-Genie Hero - www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHrvcx…
Outland - www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOsyTB…
Rayman Legends - www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMIKs1… (Take notes Sonic fans, speed, platforming, action, AND multiple characters)
Ori and the Blind Forest - www.youtube.com/watch?v=zU3rmg…
On a side note, we know already that this is just platforming games here, but given the base state of Mario games, their great gameplay barely matches up to other games I could call out, like for example, Metal Gear Rising, or Tekken, or Marvel Alliance games. Of course that's would've been overkill which is why I didn't bring them up, but you guys get the gist here.
Related content
Comments: 27
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
👍: 1 ⏩: 1
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
👍: 1 ⏩: 0
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
👍: 1 ⏩: 0
yeah wish they'd spice up the 2D mario games a bit. yeah I'm pretty much in the camp that game play shouldn't be the only important thing in a game, me personally I think one of the most important things for a game is an identity and a bit of character otherwise we might as well just be playing as a block in a blank white background. you know you make a lot of good points I think you should be in charge of the sonic series in some way.
👍: 1 ⏩: 0
(Take notes Sonic fans, speed, platforming, action, AND multiple characters)
I thought platforming was something SEGA tried to stray away from at first with Sonic 2 and 3? So would platforming in a Sonic game still be needed is what your saying?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
I think you took this the wrong way, starting from the point that you singled out one thing on the list when I meant that the game pulls them all off collectively. I still stand by me past comments on platforming and how there should be less of that in the manner it's commonly used then how it was in Sonic 2 and 3, but 2 facts remain here:
1. We all know Sega has had a hard on for "going back to Sonic's roots" since Sonic Unleashed, to the point that their forcing more platforming into every other games and not even doing it right.
2. Along with that, this backwards notion that Sonic being 2D only works by constantly rehashing the exact formula and adding nothing to it, while Rayman, which I described in the quote, Rayman did that AND added more action and playable characters to it, to the point it doesn't even resemble the original games, which I just took a look at BTW. I'd honestly be far less impressed with how the game was handled if it did exactly what it was doing back in the day with nothing to follow up.
👍: 1 ⏩: 1
Okay, just trying to make sure I get what your saying, as per usual.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
It's almost like why I dislike Call Of Duty, like Mario, it seems so "Base" for that kind of game. You pick up weapons, shoot enemy soldiers, have more emphasis on the multiplayer, and that's it. Yet people seem to like it so much, even though there is way better and more involved ones.
I never liked Shantae though, but the others are cool. And yes, Sonic is totally not "Base," which makes it awesome! Same goes for Megaman, not so "base" and really involved.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Not much for discussing COD cause I have;t played much of it and there's not much wrong with it, cause other FPS games play like it, it's the sense of trying to act like a game is better then another for virtually no reason but still latching on about gameplay, which is why I brought this up about Mario. For the most part, I don't see COD players doing much of the same as often.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
True. And another thing. Whenever I go onto Flash or Game Maker video game websites, and I see someone made a "My First Platformer" game of some sort, most of the time it is a Mario Clone, but almost never is it a Sonic/Megaman/Rayman/Outland/Ori clone (and even if it is, it's way more advanced and involved than a "My First Platformer-type game.)" Shows how Base Mario is in truth!
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
i think a game that strives to innovate on what is popular like try to be extremely new and unique eventually turns itself into a gimmick or destined to fail. This isn't definitive as if a gimmick is used accordingly then it can unique to the game but nothing that should be herald as the end all be all method. The reason why I like Just Cause 2 is because its gimmick is what makes it unique but under the hood it's just the same as any other decent third person shooter. But the developers went out of there way to care about to make their unique feature look presentable.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Well the gimmick thing is a whole other subject and can very among games. Now I actually have Just Cause 2 and at it's base gameplay, it's actually more fun to play then other 3rd person shooters because of how it allows more movement and creative ways to be destructive. Even if something doesn't work by trying to be extremely new, this way of thinking comes from the fact that once a bunch of games start doing the same thing with nothing new, then it has nothing new to offer compared to the competition, giving people no reason to venture out and try them.
Regarding the topic though, not about being innovative, but praising a game for doing nothing more then what the competition offers doesn't help the case of the game, and makes the person seem more close minded then anything, hence why I brought up the games I did in the meme. The stuff Mario get's praised for is apparent in all of these games, and even if they try something new, that only means they're offering more then Mario, giving more reason to play them.
👍: 1 ⏩: 1
I see what you mean
👍: 1 ⏩: 0
I can give Shantae some defense here if only because it's only had four games and it's still trying to find its own identity. That and the first game on GameBoy aged freaking horrendously. I'm pretty much just going to hope it can find its own identity at some point since it started off as a Metroidvania clone as well. But I'm gonna go a bit more into that later.
But yeeeeah...no, Mario. Sorry Big N. I love you as much as I got hooked on SEGA with the Genesis as my first system, but I'd either be stupid, blind, bias af, or all three to defend the plumber. Nintendo's been so annoyingly safe with him in recent years it's not even funny. And I WOULD still praise Mario 64 if I hadn't recently learned what Shigeru did to Argonaut for 3D Marios to exist.
If anything, Mario, CoD (Oh I can hear the pitchforks now), and (probably going to get killed for this one, even though I do like both of these) Super Metroid/Castlevania: Symphony of the Night are probably the key examples of games that defined their genre for the longest time. But because they made the basic 3D FPS, 2D Platformer, and a genre never seen before in the Metroidvania subgenre...it pretty much resulted in everyone wanting to be those games. And hard as it is to believe, it's still going on today because these three genres are or were still being made in the most safe way possible by Nintendo, Activision and Konami.
It's these three companies that make it a bit harder for things like Sonic, Rayman and Shantae to take risks in either 2D or 3D because so many in any fanbase put themselves in that safe bubble and assume any attempt at trying to go their own path with its main identifying features they want to keep will give them a reason to point guns at their favorite company.
It honestly was a huge breath of fresh air for me personally when I saw Shantae jump to another genre as a huge risk while keeping the RPG system it's been toying around with. But of course I must restate that Shantae is far from finding its own identity. Leaving the genre it's been known as for the main trilogy is a good start though. The Metroidvania was a subgenre of both the Platformer and RPG. And with all the safeness in the industry from the platformer, metroidvania, and FPS. (Barring that huge risk Metroid Prime's trilogy did by bringing two genres that would normally not go together into its own identity as a First Person Adventure)
She'd probably work best as a Puzzle Platformer...which ironically is the most forgotten hybrid genre because I can only think of one game for it, and it played the idea of the genre way too safe since it played too much like a puzzle game; Wario's Woods...which..."big shock"...Nintendo made this genre way too safe too with that ancient NES game. Didn't even try to utilize that hybrid's full potential. And that genre needs innovation since the Adventure Genre was more a top-down perspective upbringing in 2D.
Oh wow...holy shit. Hex was right. Your posts really do get me thinking. I haven't made a comment this long in a while.
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
Hey Evodeus, nice to see you here! And yes, he really does know what's good for Sonic, unlike those blind sheepish fans.
Also, you said "I hadn't recently learned what Shigeru did to Argonaut for 3D Marios to exist." What is that? I never heard of that?
Also, you should see this. Dorkly made a video about how Call of Duty is like the "Mario" of shooters too. Watch it here. --> www.youtube.com/watch?v=VswEn5…
Mario: "They just release the same game with some minor tweaks and new levels every time. Like adding those tiny new gimmicks justifies an entirely new game."
Luigi: "Why change the game a bunch if it's working and people enjoy it?"
Mario: "I'm just saying, they should take come changes and try new avenues!"
Luigi: "Well what if people prefer the old way of things and don't like the new direction?"
Mario: "I doubt that will happen. People like new inventive approaches to games, they don't like the same thing over and over!"
They have a point there with that video. And it makes me wonder how something so basic gets so popular.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9GpCC…
Yeah. You know how we STILL don't have StarFox 2...? Yeah...there's a damn good reason it'll never come out. The current heads of Argonaut still have that grudge with the shit Miyamoto pulled between the eras of the SNES and the N64. And it turns out we now know why Nintendo never bought Rare either.
👍: 1 ⏩: 0
I dunno about Shantae still finding it's place if it's already had 4 games, especially when it's still primarily a platformer, but to be honest, I'd rather have that then a puzzle game cause they really aren't that fun, and just comes off as padding. Metrovania is ok, but compared to Outland and Ori, Shantae needs to step it up cause it offers nothing compared to those games.
As far as defining a genre, Metroid is the only one you called out that did so. Mario was influenced by Pac-World, the real pioneer of platforming, said so by the creator himself.
psyco-the-frog.deviantart.com/…
As for COD, Doom came in the 90's way before COD became relevant, which wasn't until last generation, and even then, Halo was popular before people got tired of it, then COD got popular, but it didn't define anything. As far as playing it safe though, I don't even know if it's that, but just not doing anything more with it to earn the praise. I haven't played COD enough to make a comment on it nor do I plan to, but the entire series of Mario is pretty much safe since nothing is done with it and can still make sales, but I honestly think it's by name only and not because of this false since of quality compared to other games. I can say though that I can look at a series like Tekken and see that it doesn't need to do much from what it's done since the 90's since it always adds new characters and an ongoing narrative, even if it's fixed on the same few people.
With Rayman, I haven't played much of that series at all, and only own Origins and Legends on separate consoles, but compared to Mario, it's got better much a better art style, and gives your character more base abilities then just jumping. Like I posted in the description to, it had more fast paced stages and uses more characters, something Sonic could if Sega would stop trying to reimagine the classics over and over and just improve on what they have. Though, they should directly copy how Rayman handles it's platforming, Sonic's should be more straight but with more obstacles then death pits.
"Oh wow...holy shit. Hex was right. Your posts really do get me thinking. I haven't made a comment this long in a while."
Glad to see you're getting something from this.
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
Oh? You haven't played a lot of Rayman eh? Then unless you have real patience, it's REALLY hard to recommend the original. The original and 2 are both excellent games.
However, the original title that began the IP has this very big issue that makes it a cautious recommend over its reboot duology. At a certain point, the boss AI and level designs begin to get REALLY god damn cheap...I've played the original two games. I know this. Plus in both classic era games, he doesn't have that satisfying momentum that he does today. He's always in a constant walk in the original pre-reboot games, so jumps were more precise and fickle as to if you'd survive them or not than they need to be.
That and merely touching spikes and water instantly killed him regardless of level they show up in...which the last half of the game has this weird fetish for instant kill death traps.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Played the first Rayman bit of it last night. It's not much compared to the newer games but I can appreciate the fact that it was the first game. So far I think it's pretty decent, though needing an upgrade for even the most basic actions (Punching, hanging) kinda made it confusing, and only makes me have to replay levels to find more shit. Still, the game is pretty fun.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
The biggest glaring issue will come in once you figure out how to access the bonus stages and this one boss...
Again, good game, even though it's aged. But it also has that same glaring half of bad game design 101 for a first attempt. The Bonus Stages, your only way of getting extra lives, are the big sin in that department. Caddicarus said it best with them. Great platforming challenges, but Rayman's speed in the first game isn't built with these challenges in mind...making your only way of getting more lives being perfect timing with your jumps, as you'll always barely make it with 1 second left.
They do fix a lot of this in the 2D version of 2 though. Even giving him an ability built in mind for the bonus stages.
As for the bosses, it only starts getting bad with one of the later ones, where you have to deal with both someone shooting you and a washing machine that gets a cheap hit in. But you're a long way from that. She's responsible for 75% of game overs...with continues being the most punishing thing to the health meter and life count.
Again, for the 2D games they fix pretty much almost all of the more glaring issues in the second game's 2D version. But the first does still hold up thankfully. Even getting a DSiWare release for one of the versions of the game.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
I'm glad you like my friend, EvoDeus He's another one who knows what is TRULY good for Sonic, and actually understands your points!
Also, you should see this. Dorkly made a video about how Call of Duty is like the "Mario" of shooters too. Watch it here. --> www.youtube.com/watch?v=VswEn5…
Mario: "They just release the same game with some minor tweaks and new levels every time. Like adding those tiny new gimmicks justifies an entirely new game."
Luigi: "Why change the game a bunch if it's working and people enjoy it?"
Mario: "I'm just saying, they should take come changes and try new avenues!"
Luigi: "Well what if people prefer the old way of things and don't like the new direction?"
Mario: "I doubt that will happen. People like new inventive approaches to games, they don't like the same thing over and over!"
They have a point there with that video. And it makes me wonder how something so basic gets so popular. Before this "Dark Age" of Sonic, Sonic didn't do that, which is what makes him cooler and more interesting.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
I saw that video before. Really, I don't wont give COD and slack for not doing much else because it's a FPS, and many series of that genre don't do much unless they add special powers or abilities. It can look like a rehash, but COD has a lot more going for it then Mario, like online, actual stories, and how different some of the newer games are form each other. Mario is a action adventure game(how it started) that's lacking when it come be more compared to COD(See Sonic Adventure titles). It gets to the point that Nintendo fanboys of all people should stop trying to criticize any other series for rehashing when Mario not only does it to, but has a lot more room to improve then COD does.
👍: 1 ⏩: 0
Take it from me, Shantae is a great game that needs more love. Like Metroid and Castlevania, but in Disney's Aladdin with a cute half-genie girl.
But yeah, this argument is ear-grating.
👍: 1 ⏩: 0