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Pupaveg — VV67: Go vegan for me
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#book #cynthia #kawaii #pig #priya #share #sour #vegan #veganism #kishna #vegventures
Published: 2016-08-12 11:24:54 +0000 UTC; Views: 2948; Favourites: 28; Downloads: 1
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It's my personal choiceIt cannot be called a personal choice when it involves harming a third party for a trivial reason, which is your desire to enjoy eating them / their secretions.
Morality is subjective, you can't prove it's wrong for me
Even if you think that morality is subjective, your ethics should still be backed by logic. They are not random, nor are they plucked from thin air. As such, the question is simple - do you have any consideration for animals or not? Most people would say that they care about animals, or at the very least, would not like to needlessly harm them. Farming animals for our consumption is needless, and so all harm visited upon them including their slaughter, is needless also. So your own subjective view should be to avoid harming them - if you have any consideration for them whatsoever.
It's just a matter of opinion like religion
Religion is based upon ancient scripture, tradition, dogma and superstition. Veganism is based on having consideration for animals, and a desire to avoid animal abuse. Animal abuse is real, animals are being exploited and killed in their billions. It's a reality, can be proven to you. You might say it's a matter of opinion that we'd like to avoid it happening, but if you claim to have any consideration for animals whatsoever, then you will be in agreement.
It's just a matter of culture / social norms
Cultures and social norms develop over time. Whether it is slavery, women having the vote, or anything else, the fact that it was ever the norm or part of culture, is not a justification for it. If you think that culture is a justification, then if you look at other cultures, you must advocate every single practice that they do, regardless of how clearly unethical it is. That's not a rational point of view. You should be able to form a view on a practice regardless of where it happens. So if you say that killing dogs is unacceptable because your culture says so, but you think that it's fine if other cultures do it, consider the following: If someone is about to kill a dog in your culture, would you really say "Excuse me, can you please cross the border to that other culture where that kind of thing is the norm? Then I will stop caring about that dog". This is about the victim, it doesn't matter where it happens.
Our ancestors did it
If you live in modern society and you're reading this on the internet, clearly you must acknowledge that you do not live like your ancestors. Your ancestors did many things that you avoid, and you do plenty of things that they never did. Times have changed, we can choose to live non-violently and avoid harming those that pose no threat to us.
We've got canine teeth
Even if we had massive fangs, it wouldn't justify killing animals for the enjoyment of eating their dead bodies. It is proven time and time again that we can live on a plant-based diet in great health, so the shape of our teeth puts us under no obligation to kill. But if we look at this argument more closely - firstly there are animals with far bigger canines than us who eat a plant-based diet, like primates and rhinos and so forth. Secondly, our own "canines" are only named that way because of their position and biological classification in our jaw. They have no similarity at all with true canines which actual carnivores have like lions. They are of no use in biting through raw animal hide, especially not that of a living creature.
Lions do it
Wild animals kill to survive. They must kill to eat, otherwise they would die. Whether they kill on instinct or are aware of their predicament is irrelevant, we are not in their situation. If you live in modern society and have access to crops, vegetables, fruit, grains etc, then you have no obligation or need for animal products. Also, lions exhibit all kinds of behaviour that you would seek to avoid, for instance, violent territorial disputes, and male lions will kill the cubs of a female he wishes to mate with because she won't mate while she has cubs around. Lions are not good ethical role models.
Circle of life
I am not really sure what this means but I will try to cover it - if the suggestion is that "you live you die, therefore killing is fine" then this would justify killing companion animals and also humans. If the suggestion is "we kill an animal so that we can live" then this is false. Animals are killed for the enjoyment of eating their dead bodies. It is not a matter of survival, as proven by all the hundreds of millions of vegans in the world.
It's natural
It is untrue that you only do things that you consider to be natural - you use the internet, you presumably use a car or a bus or a plane, and so on. You use modern technology, and do various other things that cannot be called natural. Likewise, there are other things that are natural that you avoid. Nature is pretty cruel, and we actually live life in modern society trying to avoid the perils of nature. You might argue that anything is natural which humans are capable of. But if you argue that, then the justification "it's natural" would apply to literally any human behaviour, and as such is ridiculous, since you would not say that any human behaviour is justified just because a human did it.
Grass-fed, organic, free-range etc
Regardless of the nature of their lives before slaughter, farmed animals get sent to slaughter. There is a misconception that animals get to "live out their lives" and then get killed. Animals get killed as soon as their purpose is served, or as soon as they reach a profitable size, which is at a fraction of their potential lifespan. The very definition of grass-fed/organic/free-range animals is actually very loose and can vary wildly. It doesn't mean that the animals have any kind of quality of life necessarily, it just means the farm has to meet some arbitrary requirements to earn that title. That's not to say that every single farmer treats their animals dreadfully while they live - some actually do give their animals a fair standard of life before sending them to have their throats slit. But it's ignorant to think it's the norm in the first place.
Killing animals for no reason is wrong, but if you have a reason it's fine
The reason for killing animals in modern society is for the enjoyment of eating their dead body. That surely is not a justification for taking life. If somebody killed your companion animal, I doubt that you'd say "It's fine as long as you eat them".
Yeah but some animals are to be killed some aren't
The whole world will never be 100% vegan
The whole world is unlikely to ever be free from racism, homophobia or sexism, but that's no reason for you personally to practice it. All anybody can do is take responsibility for themselves. The fact that other people are doing something that you consider to be unethical, isn't a reason for you to copy them.
One person can't make a difference
Everybody is responsible for what they are personally doing. The way for numbers to rise is for individuals to take accountability one by one. If you want for there to be multiple vegans to make a difference, then become one. There are hundreds of millions of vegans in the world, so we are not just one person. In the UK, 12% of people are vegetarian or vegan. If you look at the age range of 16-24, that ratio rises to 20%. It is completely worthwhile to do this and we are having an effect on the industries. Imagine if everyone who is vegetarian/vegan started buying animal products again - that would be a giant increase in demand. As such, we are keeping demand down by continuing to avoid animal products.
~ Vegan Sidekick
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Comments: 89
Actually, that WAS somewhat original.
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Nope. We hear it every day. Booooring!
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Never heard someone say "little bacon" before. Also, please find an image of a 1000 degree knife sometime instead of the knife in the comic. I like my meat well done.
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Really? I found it to be a pretty CLEAVER joke.
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Yes, indeed. An inreasing amount of people is seeing the light!
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"Will you go vegan... for me?"
Sorry pig but you are the reason I enjoy meat so much, now off to the slaughter house with you~ :3
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To say "I just like the taste" is to say "Killing is justified if I like the flavour of the dead body". If we follow through with this, then somebody would be justified in killing your pets if they liked the taste, which surely nobody would agree with. Or even extend it to humans and say that if someone likes the taste of human flesh, then it's fine to murder people. Senseless violence, any type of senseless violence for that matter, is not morally justified by saying that you enjoy it.
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It would only be justified if they were starving and the only food they happen to find was my wondering cat, in which case I would call that person a dick but I would understand. However if its just a flavor sort of thing then it wouldn't be as house pets not only don't taste very good but also because they generally don't have much meat on them, or at least not more then what you can get at any super market for around 5 dollars.
But if the person really had a weird taste for house pets then I hear the local animal shelters/pounds are having problems with their numbers, he could go there and adopt a few for his meals seeing as they are going to be put down anyway and it would be a lot easier then trying to catch my ass hole pet.
Another thing is that my cat kills and eats things for its own enjoyment as well, I don't starve my cat mind you as its pretty fat for its own size but it still enjoys catching bugs and small animals when I let it out side and it will eat them even if her bowl is full of cat food. I'v also seen videos of cows and pigs casually eating still living animals so its not like they are not guilty of the same crime, so ya I do not care if we farm them just because they taste good as by your own logic they are inviting this with how their diets and instints work.
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It would only be justified if they were starving
But they are not starving and neither are you and me. We live in modern society with countless of other options to choose from. So why do you think that killing a cat or dog can only be jusrtified when you're starving, but think that the same thing does not apply to cows, pigs and chickens?
it wouldn't be as house pets not only don't taste very good but also because they generally don't have much meat on them, or at least not more then what you can get at any super market for around 5 dollars.
Just saying: a dog has much more meat than a chicken. By your logic, we should replace chickens with golden retrievers and labradors, because "they have more meat on them". The taste preference thing is your opinion: there are plenty of people who think dog and cat meat tastes good. Have you ever tried it? I bet not. So how do you know it doesn't taste good? The reason why you can get the corpses of pig, cows and chickens cheaper is because they have been bred on a massive scale for this purpose by multibillion dollar companies who are heavily subsidized. If it wasn't for the subsidies, meat would not be affordable for the average person. So if we would breed dogs and cats like this by the billions, would you be ok with it to slit their throats for your enjoyment? They do this in some countries and that meat is even cheaper than the meat here. Are you ok with that? Saying that "it's cheap" is not a moral justificiation for breeding animals by the billions for the sole purpose of killing them for your enjoyment. You could use that poor argument for ANY problem in the world.
But if the person really had a weird taste for house pets then I hear the local animal shelters/pounds are having problems with their numbers, he could go there and adopt a few for his meals seeing as they are going to be put down anyway and it would be a lot easier then trying to catch my ass hole pet.
So you're saying that dogs and cats just deserve to die because of human irresponsiblilities to overbreed them and take them in, only to dump them at a shelter later or for other irresponsible reasons? Put this in the human context for a minute: there are countless of orphan children. So if someone wanted to use them for their sadistic enjoyment in some way, by your logic, that would be ok because "homeless shelters are overcrowded because parents are irresponsible, fuck around and dump their newborns". That logic is completely absurd. It makes the victims of neglect pay for the deeds of their abusers who run away from their responsibilities. As for your last sentence: you sound like a very irresponsible pet owner. Have you ever thought about it that it's because of people with your mentality that shelters are this crowded? Why blame your innocent victims for your irresponsibility? You're the one who takes the responsibility to take in a pet who depends on you. Sounds more like you are the asshole here rather than your pet.
Another thing is that my cat kills and eats things for its own enjoyment as well, I don't starve my cat mind you as its pretty fat for its own size but it still enjoys catching bugs and small animals when I let it out side and it will eat them even if her bowl is full of cat food.
Your cat hunts birds because that's his survival instinct, which is still inside him after all of these domestic years, which does not apply to us. Whether they kill on instinct or are aware of their predicament is irrelevant, we are not in their situation. If you live in modern society and have access to crops, vegetables, fruit, grains etc, then you have no obligation or need for animal products. Also, cats and other animals exhibit all kinds of behaviour that you would seek to avoid, for instance, violent territorial disputes, and sometimes killing their own offspring. Cats are not good ethical role models. By your logic, rape, murder and theft are completely fine, because cats, dogs and other animals sometimes steal from one another, kill members of their own species and rape. Also: do you run after a bird on all fours, catch it with your weak nails and teeth and devour it raw? No, you don't. But that's what cats do. So WTF are you talking about? What’s next? Are you going to walk around naked on all fours and lick your own butthole because “cats do this, too”? Just for the record: YOU. ARE. NOT. A. CAT. Also: Your logic only applies Only to certain wild animals. Why specifically copy the behavior of vicious animals? Why cats, lions, tigers and crocodiles which, unlike you, must eat meat, otherwise they would die? Why not copy the behaviour of animals you are physiologically similar to, like our closest relatives, the frugivorous bonobos? Why not copy the peaceful behaviour of most other animals? What’s with the cherry-picking? And even if you insited on copying the behaviour of cats and lions, you’d still have to stop eating meat, because they only do so to survive since they have a biological need for it. And since humans have no biological need for meat, there would be no case of hunting for survival, so we would not be copying lions/cats after all! Lions and tigers also hunt and devour their prey naturally, which humans are incapable of (that’s why we invented knives and cooking; to do something we aren’t biologically designed to do, just like how we invented airplanes because were not biologically designed to fly and boats because we naturally can’t float on water), so unless you want to risk horrible diseases and injury which would kill you prematurely, that would mean that you’d have to go without meat, as you can’t rely on the unnatural inventions like knives and cooking anymore, nevermind the supermarket. Lions and cats don’t use knives and they don’t cook!
But aside from that; whatever a person chooes to feed their companion animals has absolutely nothing to do with what they choose to eat themselves, and what else they choose to boycott. So whether or not you feel that your companion animals require meat to live healthily should have no impact on whether you buy animal products outside of that.
I've also seen videos of cows and pigs casually eating still living animals so its not like they are not guilty of the same crime, so ya I do not care if we farm them just because they taste good as by your own logic they are inviting this with how their diets and instints work.
We force cows and pigs in farms to feed on the corpses of other animals by putting it into their feed, including members of their own species, which makes them forced to eat it otherwise they die. You can't blame a slave for what you choose to force-feed them. And like I said: the few isolated incidents of cows eating animals, pigs eating animals (deer do it too, in act of desperation) in the wild, does not justify the horrific things what we do to all of them in factory farms. By your logic, all humans should die because of what the Nazis and ISIS did. "I've seen videos of humans forcing Jews into gas chambers, so it's not like humans are not guilty of the same crime when I blow up an airplane for my enjoyment!" I hope you realize how absurd this logic sounds. Especially since the comparison between a deer eating roadkill to survive/instinct VS humans consciously killing and pollutiong the earth for their enjoyment is absurd.
Last but not least: Animal agriculture is the leading cause of deforestation (70%), greenhouse gas emmissions (51%), habitat destruction, ocean deadzones, species endangerment- and extinction, water pollution, starvation and many more (environmental) disasters. No cow, pig or chicken breeds billions of genetically engineered animals every year for the sole purpose of exploiting, torturing and killing them for their enjoyment. They don’t restrain and forcibly artifically impregnate females and breed them by the billions, they don’t take their babies away from them just so they can steal the breast milk their mothers made for them, they don’t cull their male babies because they can’t give birth nor lactate and are therefore not profitable, they don’t genetically manipulate their bodies to become fully grown when we’re actually still babies, they don’t base an entire industry on their enslavement and destruction like a bunch of nazis, they don’t pollute the earth for greed (the same counts for lions, tigers and crocodiles, by the way). So if you want to behave like a wild animal, go run naked into the woods, drop all of your modern technology and run after an animal on all fours and devour him alive with your weak nails and tiny little teeth. Your argument is known as the "appeal to nature fallacy", which is also often used by rapists, pedophiles and other violent people to justify their crimes. But all of you violent people are not wild animals who act on a predatory instinct, so cherry-picking violence caused by wild animals doesn't justify anything violent you do.
they are inviting this with how their diets and instints work.
Male chicks in the egg industry are ground up alive at the first day they're born because they can't lay eggs and are of a breed that doesn't grow enough breast meat to be profitable. They never "invited" being ground up alive or being stuffed into garbage bags until they suffocate. Piglets never invited being smashed to death on the floor just because they don't grow fast enough. Pigs never invited being restrained their entrire lives into a small space in which they can't even turn around. Cows never invited being genetically manipulated, restrained, raped, sexually exploited, tortured and killed. None of these animals invited this. What you're doing is called victim-blaming. Ironically this logic can even be used against you by saying that "all meat eaters had murder and rape coming, because they (pay others) to do this to other animals" or "cats catch birds, so that makes it ok to breed, rape and kill them by the billions for our enjoyment". It can even be used to justify harming your loved ones. I'm sure you realize how absurd and psychopathic your logic sounds. Just because an animal is a natural omnivore or carnivore who hunts on instinct to survive doesn't justify enslaving, raping and torturing them for fun. What kind of sick logic is that?
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I know he isn't starving, I'm just saying that would be the only justifiable reason for him to eat my pet when normal food is so easy to get. You are trying to compare hunting and killing a still living house pet with not much edible meat on it and belongs to some one else with taking five minutes buying much more food for a lot less time and effort. It wouldn't be justified for some random ass hole to go kill a farm cow ether because it doesn't belong to him, its still a crime and makes no sense for a normal person to do unless they are fucking crazy.
And no that isn't a opinion that is fact, unless said crazy person is a skilled chef that knows how to cook a cat into a worth while meal it will always taste like shit. The countries that do eat dogs and cats do it because there is a abundance of said animal and much easier to get their meat instead of cows and pigs, and I am fine with them eating those animals because they do not belong to me or anyone but themselves and people over there need to eat something. I'm not against eating cat myself and if offered the chance to have a dish prepared by a real cook legally I would accept.
As for the video part, no they weren't forcing them to eat anything though I know that happens. It was an open farm as in they let the animals run around and a baby chick just so happen to walk too close to a cow while it was chewing on some grass. With out stopping once it ate it up as if it didn't even notice it was there, which it most likely didn't. This wasn't some farmer forcing a cow to eat cow meat, it was a milking cow that ate a chick for no other reason then it was hungry and didn't care.
And no I do not think humans need to die just because some did horrible things to each other, you are assuming that because you think humans and animals are on the same level which they aren't. Besides we kill animals to feed others while the nazi 's killed jewish people because they hated them, so nice non-comparison there as its wrong on multiple levels such as assuming I want all animals to die, which is stupid because then I wouldn't be able to eat any meat if that was the case, and because I do not hate animals that eat each other or even people for that matter because I'm not a hypocrite about these things.
So no I wouldn't want orphans to die because they aren't food, they have something more to give to the world besides just existing, and they have higher brain functions then the common cow or pig. I never said that animals were inviting being farmed and eaten I said by your own logic they were as you are saying just because I eat animal meat for how they taste that I'm fine with mass death of humans, the reason being my fat lazy cat with a abundance of food still finding enjoyment out of killing and eating bugs and small animals for pleasure rather then necessity.
I don't know why you felt the need to try and cherry pick from my post when I'm the one who wrote it and its clear as day to read, but whatever.
I wonder if you get this way when some one kills a bug, or gasses their house because of an infestation, or when the thought of you unknowingly stepping on ants through out your life floats through your mind. Would you be fine with killing hundreds of roaches that have entered your home or would you be so good hearted to take each and everyone one of them out in little cups and poor them out side so they can infest others yards and homes while you still have your house full of bugs. If you would kill them then you are doing it for less of a reason then people are for animals, you are doing it because they disgust you and just want them gone.
Which is fine with me seeing as I find them disgusting as well but if I may quote you for a moment "Senseless violence, any type of senseless violence for that matter, is not morally justified by saying that you enjoy it.". I'm sure you wouldn't enjoy the genocide of bugs but none the less you are doing it because you enjoy not having to share your home with hundreds of filthy little creators that wouldn't give a second thought to eating you. Yes I know it isn't a good comparison to animals but then again nether is the comparisons you have been giving ether.
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I know he isn't starving, I'm just saying that would be the only justifiable reason for him to eat my pet when normal food is so easy to get.
Then why is it a justifiable reason to kill other animals while you're not starving and other food is so easy to get? Pigs, cows and chickens feel just as much pain and fear when killed as dogs do. So why is it ok to kill some animals, but not others?
You are trying to compare hunting and killing a still living house pet with not much edible meat on it and belongs to some one else with taking five minutes buying much more food for a lot less time and effort. It wouldn't be justified for some random ass hole to go kill a farm cow ether because it doesn't belong to him, its still a crime and makes no sense for a normal person to do unless they are fucking crazy.
So what you're saying is that it's ok to kill an animal when it's easy, culturally accepted and the law allows it? Do you know that there are countries in which the killing and torturing of dogs and cats is legal? And do you know that some countries even see killing of someone else's dog as a herotic act because they are considered "unclean"? The laws in those countries approve of this, it's culturally accepted and completely legal. Do you also approve of this? If you do, then why do you suddenly reject this idea when we move those same dogs to our countries? What your argument basically narrows down to is "it's legal". And that is a really poor excuse to justify senseless violence, one that has been used by oppressors throughout history. Slavery was legal, witch trials were legal, killing homosexuals was and is still legal in some countries, dog fighting and bullfighting are still legally practiced in certain areas in the world. But legality doesn't morally justify senseless violence. And the senseless violence in your culture is no exception.
And no that isn't a opinion that is fact, unless said crazy person is a skilled chef that knows how to cook a cat into a worth while meal it will always taste like shit.
No, it is not a fact. Taste preference is a matter of opinion. As someone who has never eaten dog- or cat meat, you surely are one to judge its taste. Millions of people in other areas in the world enjoy the taste of these animals as much as you enjoy your heavily salted, full of artificial flavours stuffed bacon sausages.
The countries that do eat dogs and cats do it because there is a abundance of said animal and much easier to get their meat instead of cows and pigs, and I am fine with them eating those animals because they do not belong to me or anyone but themselves and people over there need to eat something. I'm not against eating cat myself and if offered the chance to have a dish prepared by a real cook legally I would accept.
That makes no sense at all. Following through with this statement, you'd be appalled if a dog was killed in front of you, but apparently if that same dog was transported to another country where it is culturally acceptable to kill them, then you'd say it was fine. Think it through - it's the same dog, precisely the same thing is happening to them. Why does it matter where it happens?
With out stopping once it ate it up as if it didn't even notice it was there, which it most likely didn't.
So cows deserve to be raped, tortured, sexually exploited and have their and their newborn babies' throat slit because they accidently consume insects and small animals while grazing without noticing? Are you serious? 0_o
And no I do not think humans need to die just because some did horrible things to each other, you are assuming that because you think humans and animals are on the same level which they aren't. Besides we kill animals to feed others while the nazi 's killed jewish people because they hated them, so nice non-comparison there as its wrong on multiple levels such as assuming I want all animals to die, which is stupid because then I wouldn't be able to eat any meat if that was the case,
I didn't say that you wanted all humans to die for a crime some committed. I simply applied your logic of "a cow ate a chick without noticing, so all cows deserve to be tortured and killed for my enjoyment as punishment for this cow's unconscious act" logic in general. It's absurd.
The reason why people find these comparisons insulting is, from a psychological viewpoint, because of a false feeling of superiority.
E.g. When I was younger, I’ve been discriminated a lot. I was bullied, beaten, humiliated almost every day at school, simply because my skin colour was different. One day, me and my friends compared other forms of oppression to the oppression of people of colour. My bullies got all defensive and were like “No way! You can’t compare Jews to brown people! They are different, so this is different! That’s an insult to Jews!”
Other victimizers often respond in the same way. “You can’t compare gays to women! You can’t compare women to men! You can’t compare animals to people! They are different, so this is different! They are oppressed for different reasons than the other group! They matter less because they are not like us!”
This arrogance is all based on a false feeling of superiority, on the superiority complex of the victimizers. Because while the reasons for oppressing each group of victims may vary, and Jews were oppressed for different reasons than gays were/are and women were/are oppressed for different reasons than blacks and animals were/are, this is completely irrelevant. What matters is that they are all forms of oppression, based on the same mentality: “They are different, so they matter less.” They all have the same roots. Apparently when people finally learn that it’s wrong to oppress a certain group of victims, they have to learn the same lesson all over again when they get ahold of another group of victims... From women, to blacks, to Jews, to gays, to animals. When will it stop? It would of course be a different story if one of the groups would be compared to objects or machines, but that is not the case. All of these victims, women, blacks, gays, Jews, animals... they all have feelings and feel pain and fear, just like you and I do. The life of a homosexual person or a non-human animal is just as important to them as a woman’s or black person’s life is to them. The reason behind the comparison of one form of oppression to another is therefore not to insult or degrade any of the mentioned groups; on the contrary: it’s to show that we recognize how horrible a group of victims has suffered and to convince others that we should learn from the mistakes we made in the past rather than repeating these barbaric actions over and over and over again, with a different group of victims every time. Because in the end, all forms of oppression share the same basic relationship: that between the oppressor and the oppressed.
“They are different, so this is different!” The victimizer’s mindset. The very same mindset which applies to all forms of oppression: racism, sexism, homophobia, speciesism, the Jewish holocaust etc.
Making this connection is what made me go vegan. I didn’t want to be like my bullies. I couldn’t put myself to say that it’s ok to oppress any group of victims just because “they are different”. Not anymore. Because oppression is oppression, no matter who is the victim.
and because I do not hate animals that eat each other or even people for that matter because I'm not a hypocrite about these things.
Yes, you are. You insist on copying only certain wild animals their behaviour, animals which you biologically have literally nothing in common with rather than copying the behaviour of species which you're biologically close to. Not only that, but you cherry-pick which parts you want to copy from these specific animals. If it's ok to kill animals because lions and dolphins do it, then why do you dissaprove of rape, theft, murder and war? After all: don't these specific wild animals do this, too? By your logic all aforementioned violence would be justified because "wild animals do it too, and we wouldn't want to be a hypocrite by refraining from this." Again: what's up with the cherry-picking wild animal ethics? You do realize that you're using rapist anologies right now, right? They use the poor "wild animals do it, too" argument all the time to victim-blame. It's insane when you think about it. You're not a lion. You don't need meat to survive. What about cannibals? Are you ok with this, too? After all, some wild animals are cannibals, too. So why is is bad when humans do it? I hope you realize that your excuse can be used to justify any form of violence in the world, which makes it a poor argument. The same counts for the "I'm ok with it" excuse. It is not about you, but about your victims. Saying that you're ok with harming someone (no matter who) doesn't justify harming that someone. Remember: this is not about you.
So no I wouldn't want orphans to die because they aren't food,
To cannibals they are. But does saying "they're food to me" make it ok to kill them if they don't have to? Of course not!
they have something more to give to the world besides just existing, and they have higher brain functions then the common cow or pig.
What more do they have the world to give? I mean seriously, think about it. You admitted yourself that you're a meat eater. Like I said, animal agriculture is the leading cause of deforestation, habitat destruction, ocean deadzones and many more environmental disasters. By contributing to it, you're actually making the world worse and technically (from a neutral perspective, from the earth's perspective) would be better off not existing at all. Your existence doesn't contribute to do good to the world. You exist and live soley for your own enjoyment, not to make the world better. Technically most humans are parasites to the planet, always taking, never giving back etc. So I don't know why you think so highly of yourself. Because when it comes to who is the most useful, humans would be the first ones to go, despite their "high brain" fuction of which most people only use to make their own lives more comfy and enjoyable, at the expense of the earth. Stop acting like we're the crown of creation already. We're not. And "intelligence determines your value" is also a very poor argument. By this logic, children and heavily mentally handicapped people would be of lower value and it would be ok to kill them, just because they can't function like the average adult. And dogs would also be of higher value than cats, which makes no sense. When it comes to suffering, the only question that matters is "can they suffer?" Everything else is completely irrelevant.
I wonder if you get this way when some one kills a bug, or gasses their house because of an infestation, or when the thought of you unknowingly stepping on ants through out your life floats through your mind.
Seriously? You're comparing unconsciously stepping on a bug while walking without noticing to consciously mass-breeding, genetically manipulating, raping, sexually exploiting, torturing and killing sentient beings for your enjoyment? 0_o Wow... just wow. I seriously hope that you're trolling with this one. But even if you are serious with this argument, which narrows down to "you can't be 100% perfect, so why bother avoiding violence?" I have a few things I will share with you: People look at me as a vegan and conclude that since I stepped on a snail or because the vegetables I eat resulted in a tractor death for a squirrel somewhere in Paraguay that somehow vegans are hypocrites, which of course they’re not since perfection is an unattainable goal and is something to be driven towards, never actually achieved. The difference between you and the vegan standing next to you is that while you’re both going to step on a bug tomorrow, they’ve decided to dedicate their lives to as little harm as possible, completely independent from what you do. So in no way does the protozoan life form they step on negate your responsibility for the lamb you’re paying a stranger to cut tomorrow. And falling 1% short of an unattainable goal is really good when you’re standing next to someone who wouldn't even try.
Would you be fine with killing hundreds of roaches that have entered your home or would you be so good hearted to take each and everyone one of them out in little cups and poor them out side so they can infest others yards and homes
There are plenty of ways to get rid of pests without much efford and without killing them. All it takes is a bit research, but the easiest way to keep these roaches away is to keep your home clean. It's that simple. Also, what does this have to do with your choice to needlessly torture, sexually exploit and kill sentient beings for your enjoyment anyway? It is completely irrelevant and I don't even know why you brought this up. Trying to pick holes into someone doing their best to avoid violence doesn't justify the needless violence you contribute to yourself, you know. Like, even IF I would kill roaches (which I don't) then that still doesn't justify you paying someone to grind up male chicks alive from the first day they're born just because you want to steal their mothers' eggs for your palate pleasure and neither does it justify paying someone to smash newborn piglets to death on the concrete floor because they don't grow fast enough for your bacon.
I hope you think about this.
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I mean its easier to get other meats then it is to kill and eat my cat, you can get a hamburger for a dollar instead of breaking the law by killing what isn't yours for food. I explained this already I don't see why you try to bring this up as a point.
But nice non-comparison in the next line there buddy comparing religious beliefs to logical ones. What makes you think I care what some one's god thinks of killing animals? I only care about what is and isn't considered to be 'food' in this case, so stop bringing up things unrelated to the subject if you want to continue this discussion please.
You can keep saying taste is a matter of 'opinion' but that won't make it true. Some one could love the taste of crap all they want but in the end its still going to taste like crap. The people who do think that things like raw house cat flesh tastes 'good' are literal crazy people that would need to seek professional help or people in third world countries that don't know any better. In other countries they make do with what they have, even the people that eat bugs try as best they can to cook them up with other things so it doesn't taste so much like a bug. Some people even eat food that tastes horrible not because they like it but because its a 'delicacy' and they want to look fancy.
By the way, some one elses cat isn't considered a 'delicacy' in case you were wondering. Also yes I do think those people are stupid as those types of food seem to only be made to fool rich people into spending money on garbage.
You trying to say taste is an opinion is like saying the feeling of your bones breaking is an opinion on if it hurts like hell, if some one enjoys that happening to them then they are fucked in the head.
No it does make sense if you listened to a word I said so far. I am alright with animals being farmed for food, I have no problem with what kind of animal as long its not specifically my own because that animal belongs to me personally. This has nothing to do with what is socially right but what I can and can't do with what belongs to me, which in this case would be my house cat and their own property. If they don't have the means to farm bigger animals for meat then of course they would farm dogs and cats for food as well, but even in those countries its illegal to steal and kill those animals from their owners so its not like its alright there to take a leg off some ones dog while they are taking it for a walk.
Of course I am only talking about countries where the people decide on what is and isn't illegal through logical thinking and not because a book or some dictator told them so. In those cases its just some one forcing their opinion on to others because they think its the right thing to do.
Again, you are making a bizarre comparison to something I said about what YOU think. YOU said that for some reason I thought it would be okay to kill orphans because I eat animals and I was just showing evidence that if you thought some one like me would be okay with that then an animal that has shown the same tendency would be okay or at least asking for its kind to be farmed. Don't know how many times I have to explain that to YOU but I feel like this won't be the last.
I'm going to skip some of this if you don't mind because I feel the last part I just talked about applies to your misunderstanding over what I was saying. That and this is a long ass comment and I have things to do besides reading through comparisons that are not the same and assumptions on what I think.
You said certain wild animals, not me. I said I was fine with what ever animal being farmed for food, now this does have some limits mind you such as farming the whole race of them into non-existence, I am against that because I do not want to wipe out a whole type of animal just for food when we have others to pick and choose from. Cannibals are crazy people... don't know why you brought them up.
And here is where I think your problem is, you consider humans worse then animals. To some degree I would have to agree with you on that one, we are bad for nature itself, but even if we were to shoot every nuke we had and blow up every power plant there is then 'The World' as you like to think ( I was speaking about the world of people in my last post by the way, just thought I would point that out. ) wouldn't care one bit. The Earth would be fine and in a couple hundred thousand years it would be pretty much back to square one, comparing that to how long The Earth has been around it would barely be a week or two of being sick. No one and nothing is making the world better, not you, not me, and certainly not animals themselves. So what do I think Orphans contribute to The World itself? Nothing, because no one and nothing does because Earth is just a rock flying through space and we are all just lucky enough it hasn't hit anything yet... well hit anything yet again anyway.
But if you want to stop being over dramatic about things and get back to what we were discussing then I would say one of those Orphans could be the person that curse cancer, or maybe stops world hunger by perfecting something like clone technology to the point where we would only need one cow or pig to feed the whole world. If that were the case then said Orphan would be a great help to the world in your eyes wouldn't they?
Oh and our final point of this extremely long comment! ..... and you missed it completely. I was asking if you cared for the bugs you have killed unknowingly through out your life, or if you would be alright with killing an infestation of insects if they invaded your home. In stead you avoided the question with out answering it. YOU are the one who said "Senseless violence, any type of senseless violence for that matter, is not morally justified by saying that you enjoy it." not me, YOU were the one who said any kind of senseless violence is not morally justified because you enjoy it but then turn around and say it would be alright if you didn't notice it at all.
Also I did do a bit of research for this sort of thing and all I found were the best ways to KILL the bugs. Oh there are plenty of ways to keep them away but as soon as they make themselves at home it seems the only way to get rid of them is by killing them. What was my question again? Oh yes, Would you be fine with killing an infestion in your home. Though I will be fair and let you say what ever way you think of to get rid of hundreds of thousands of roaches with out killing them, if its with in reason and available to people easily then I will concede this point at least.
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"It's easier" for me is no valid reason for senseless violence.
But nice non-comparison in the next line there buddy comparing religious beliefs to logical ones. What makes you think I care what some one's god thinks of killing animals? I only care about what is and isn't considered to be 'food' in this case, so stop bringing up things unrelated to the subject if you want to continue this discussion please.
Yet your superiority complex saying "animals matter less" is based on belief just as the Muslims their "dogs are unclean" belief is. Both statements are not logical, nor based on facts; they require faith. Also, by this logic, if someone considers dogs, cats and people "food" then it would be ok to slit their throats. I'm sure you realize this logic is extremely flawed. Animals are living beings with their own goals in life. Just because you reduce them to a "thing" doesn't mean they are. I think you're the one who needs to let go of your dogmatic beliefs and start focusing on facts.
You can keep saying taste is a matter of 'opinion' but that won't make it true. Some one could love the taste of crap all they want but in the end its still going to taste like crap.
Dogs like the taste of crap. Therefore they disagree with you that crap is gross. If taste was a matter of fact, a dog would never enjoy eating poo. If you don't see why taste is a matter of opinion, you are delusional.
By the way, some one elses cat isn't considered a 'delicacy' in case you were wondering. Also yes I do think those people are stupid as those types of food seem to only be made to fool rich people into spending money on garbage.
No, the dog eaters live in very poor areas of the world. It has nothing to do with preparing food for rich people. They eat them for the same reason why you eat pigs, cows and chickens; because they enjoy it, because they consider them food, because it's normal for them to do. So what makes you better than them?
You trying to say taste is an opinion is like saying the feeling of your bones breaking is an opinion on if it hurts like hell, if some one enjoys that happening to them then they are fucked in the head.
Comparing the taste of food to physical pain? That comparison is extremely flawed. I personally think olives are gross. So does that mean that no one in the world likes the taste of olives? Of course not! And does that make the people who enjoy olives "fucked in the head" because they would not enjoy breaking a bone? Of course not! Physical pain has nothing to do with taste preference. It is completely irrelevant.
I am alright with animals being farmed for food, I have no problem with what kind of animal as long its not specifically my own because that animal belongs to me personally.
That is not a justification for killing other animals. Somebody could equally say to you "I don't have a connection with your dog, so I am going to slit their throat". Just because of how you feel about an animal, doesn't mean that animal is disposable, they are sentient beings. Also, killing someone (no matter who) is not justified by the killer saying that he's ok with it. It's about the victim, not about you.
but even in those countries its illegal to steal and kill those animals from their owners so its not like its alright there to take a leg off some ones dog while they are taking it for a walk.
This is an absurd comparison. The reason why you'd be upset with someone killing your dog is not because they are your property, it's because they are sentient beings, living their own life, and you don't want harm to come to them. Damage to your TV is a financial loss, your companion animals are more than that surely? Most of the dogs and cats there are bred for meat by the way. So you're ok with that? If a dog lived with an owner, you'd be against slitting his throat, but if the owner decided to dump the dog on the street, you'd suddenly be ok with slitting his throat? Your argument is pretty shaky if you ask me.
Of course I am only talking about countries where the people decide on what is and isn't illegal through logical thinking and not because a book or some dictator told them so. In those cases its just some one forcing their opinion on to others because they think its the right thing to do.
Yet you defend the very same countries you criticize here, because in Western countries we force our opinion on others, the animals, and don't base all of our laws on logical thinking, but mainly on making profit. That's why many elders are treated like shit - to save on money, why there are many legal medical scams - because of money and why we breed billions of sentient beings for the sole purpose of torturing, exploiting and killing them for our enjoyment, even though doing this is the leading cause of environmental disasters and food- and water shortages. All this clearly is not based on logical thinking, yet we do it for the very same reasons why the other countries dominate women, allow child abuse and bullfighting - greed, money and dogmatic beliefs.
Again, you are making a bizarre comparison to something I said about what YOU think. YOU said that for some reason I thought it would be okay to kill orphans because I eat animals and I was just showing evidence that if you thought some one like me would be okay with that then an animal that has shown the same tendency would be okay or at least asking for its kind to be farmed. Don't know how many times I have to explain that to YOU but I feel like this won't be the last.
You've clearly missed the point of my argument here. Maybe read it again?
You said certain wild animals, not me. I said I was fine with what ever animal being farmed for food, now this does have some limits mind you such as farming the whole race of them into non-existence, I am against that because I do not want to wipe out a whole type of animal just for food when we have others to pick and choose from. Cannibals are crazy people... don't know why you brought them up.
Like I said before: oppression (no matter in what form) and senseless violence are not justified by saying that the victimizer is ok with it. This is about the victims, about their feelings, their life. Not about if wether or not you're ok with harming them. This is not about you. It's about them. I brought up cannibals because you claimed that it was ok to kill animals "because other animals do this, too". I brought up cannibals to show how absurd your argument was. An act of senseless violence is not justified by saying that wild animals do it, too. By that logic not just cannibalism, but also all other forms of violence wild animals practice would be ok for us to do. And it's not. Rapists, child molesters and murderers often pull the "wild animals do it, too" argument. It is insane. We're not lions, crocodiles, wolves or snakes. Stop acting like they're our moral guides.
So what do I think Orphans contribute to The World itself? Nothing, because no one and nothing does because Earth is just a rock flying through space and we are all just lucky enough it hasn't hit anything yet... well hit anything yet again anyway.
Exactly. So stop acting like humans are some kind of gods who are superior to all living. We're not.
But if you want to stop being over dramatic about things and get back to what we were discussing then I would say one of those Orphans could be the person that curse cancer, or maybe stops world hunger by perfecting something like clone technology to the point where we would only need one cow or pig to feed the whole world. If that were the case then said Orphan would be a great help to the world in your eyes wouldn't they?
No. That would only benefit our own lives, but would not help the world. In fact: it would make the problem worse. Your argument is on par with saying "a parasite discovered how to multiply faster and kill millions of more animals and people, so that parasite is very useful to the world". They aren't useful to the world for inventing something to destroy even more of its creatures. It's funny that you mention cancer and world hunger... you do realize that animal agriculture is the leading cause of those, right? If the orphan wants to improve the world, he should therefore advocate against the meat industry. We could feed the entire planet multiple times over on plants. Yet we choose to starve millions just so Western people can have bacon, only to whine about getting cancer, heart disease or other meat-related diseases later. It's insane.
I was asking if you cared for the bugs you have killed unknowingly through out your life, or if you would be alright with killing an infestation of insects if they invaded your home.
There are many ways to get rid of "pests" without killing them. All it takes is a bit of research. If you have some at the moment, I suggest contacting Vegan Publishers on facebook, who has simple and quick solutions to your problem. Also, by comparing unknowingly stepping on a bug while walking to systematically breeding, sexually exploiting, torturing and killing billions of sentient beings for your enjoyment I now officially question your mental stability. It is a very desperate attempt at an argument, not to mention very disrespectful to your victims, and could be used to justify literallty all kind of violence in the world. Veganism isn't about dogmatically and irrationally saying "I am perfect, I harm nothing". It is about recognising the harm that is being done by our society, and trying to make a change, avoid being part of it - as far as we can. If you believe that senseless violence is justified by the fact that people unknowingly step on ants while walking, I suggest you seek mental help as soon as possible.
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You really like cherry picking don't you? I said its easier and NOT ILLEGAL to buy meats at a store rather then killing and eating my cat.
No my idea that animals matter less then humans is not a belief its fact. A person can understand and help others, they can create homes and make food for the hungry as well as invent things that make the world better to live in for other humans. Animals at best can keep you company and with the right training might be able to save a person from danger and even then thats a very small selection of animals such as dogs.
There is no "Belief" in that as humans have proven to be above other animals, no animal has done even a fraction of the things Humans have there for they are above them. The only person here using their belief is you as you are only using feelings to say why eating meat is wrong.
Dogs don't 'like' the taste of crap they just like to eat. Given the choice between a freshly prepared ham burger made from a cow that was killed not 30 minutes ago and its own shit the dog will always eat the hamburger with out any complaints. There for Dogs like the taste of meat so they disagree with you that eating meat is bad. Even the animals you are trying to defend disagree with you by your own, rather stupid, logic!
I wasn't talking about the people who eat dogs when I brought up "Delicacy's" I was talking about rich people who eat snails and fish eggs! You really do not read my posts and are just going in trying to look for any faults don't you?
Fuck it, if you don't actually care about having a discussion as you are clearly just trying to pick and choose from my words to try and prove some kind of rather stupid point then I'll just do the same and we can go on our ways okay?
You said that the child that curse cancer and solves world hunger through cloning one animal's meat basically eliminating farming live animals as you can now just grow meat would just be HURTING the world now? Oh wow, ya I guess getting rid of a sickness that kills people who most likely ate a hot dog before would hurt the world because there would be more meat eaters that are no longer hurting animals! Obviously we can't let that happen or else you would lose your moral superiority you are holding over everyones head right?
Seriously though I think we are done here, I came to have a friendly discussion on the topic but now I see that was never going to happen and most likely never will happen.
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"It's easy" is no moral justification to needlessly harm others.
No my idea that animals matter less then humans is not a belief its fact.
No. It is an opinion, just like "women matter less than men" or "gays matter less than straight people".
A person can understand and help others, they can create homes and make food for the hungry as well as invent things that make the world better to live in for other humans. Animals at best can keep you company and with the right training might be able to save a person from danger and even then thats a very small selection of animals such as dogs.
So the way you determine one's moral worth is based on how much they can serve you and your own kind and make your own life more comfortable? You're basically saying "if you can't serve me, you're inferior". That is absurd and extremely arrogant, and also very typical for a victimizer. The worth of one's life is not determined on how well they want to serve you, but on how important the life is to the individual and wether or not they have feelings. By your logic, heavily mentally handicapped people and babies would be of less value.
Know that humans are the only species who destroy the earth in all ways possible; meat eaters especially. We force millions of people into starvation every year, willingly fund the leading cause of deforestation, species endangerment- and extinction, ocean deadzones, habitat destruction, greenhouse gas emmissions, water pollution and many more environmental destruction caused by its leading cause (animal agriculture) just because we enjoy the taste of a certain product (meat). So from a factual perspective, we are the most "worthless" beings on earth and every single species would benefit if we dissapeared. So stop acting like we're the crown of creation. When it comes to who is the most useful, humans would be the first ones to go.
Dogs don't 'like' the taste of crap they just like to eat. Given the choice between a freshly prepared ham burger made from a cow that was killed not 30 minutes ago and its own shit the dog will always eat the hamburger with out any complaints.
No. That depends on the dog. One of my dog chooses cat poo over literally everything else. Maybe this is the time that you admit that this whole "dog meat is not good" thing is not a matter of fact, but opinion? Especially since you've never tried dog meat to begin with.
There for Dogs like the taste of meat so they disagree with you that eating meat is bad. Even the animals you are trying to defend disagree with you by your own, rather stupid, logic!
Dogs are biological meat eaters. Of course they like the taste of meat. So do I, not going to lie. But the whole point is that we're not dogs and that the enjoyment of taste is no moral justification for taking the life of sentient being. Dogs also rape, kill each other, kill their own babies and fight for territory. But just because an animal instinctively does those violent things, does not make it ok for humans.
I wasn't talking about the people who eat dogs when I brought up "Delicacy's"
Yes, you were. You used this as an argument to claim that dog meat is not consumed out of habit, but that "only rich people do it" which I have proven false. Maybe admitting that you were wrong about that would make you sound more reasonable?
Fuck it, if you don't actually care about having a discussion as you are clearly just trying to pick and choose from my words to try and prove some kind of rather stupid point then I'll just do the same and we can go on our ways okay?
I'm not. I have literally replied to all of your arguments as honestly as I could. Maybe you have to realize that you shouldn't have started a discussion about a topic you know nothing of. Your arguments are shaky and can easily fall apart. How about you apologize for coming to the page of someone who cares about your victims only to argue in favour of harming those victims? I think that would be decent. As for your point on the child curing cancer caused by the industry you fund... you seem to have missed my point.
Seriously though I think we are done here, I came to have a friendly discussion on the topic but now I see that was never going to happen and most likely never will happen.
Apparently not. You seem to be very close-minded and delusional, only arguing in favour of death and destruction. It's a shame, really.
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I actually became a vegan for the animals
I tried many times to become a vegan but because of how bad my health was
yet I always gave up because I am one of these person that hates vegetables alot
Just after I searched for myself on farmed animals, I gave up on meat and animals byproduct.
I'm still unhealthy because i still dislike most vegetables, but fake meat works great to me, plus tons of pasta and rice : p
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Have you ever tried any vegetables from asian and Indian tokos? They're very different from the boring basic vegetables you find in the supermarket. Another option would be fruit or trying youtube recipes like jackfruit vegan meat.
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I don't think we have those here in italy,
but I'll try to do a detox, my body is quite failing because of how unhealthy im being lmao
i think i just really need to stop being a cry baby just for the taste of food, i should eat vegetables
and wait my pH restores itself from all the acidificants food I've been eating all those years welp
wish me luck
and keep with the great work, we need more vegan artists like you tbh
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Thanks! You don't have to give up enjoying taste of food though. Since you live in Europe just like me, you might consider sometimes ordering stuff from www.alles-vegetarisch.de/leben… or www.veggiedeli.nl/ which taste similar to meat. I know the first one ships internationally, because I sometimes order from there, too and they ship it to my country. I can't read German, but luckily they have an English flag on top of their site: just click it. They are all organic, non-gmo products though, so they are pricier than the ones in chinese tokos.
I don't always have the money for these organic products, so I usually make mine by myself. Maybe you can try it sometime! It's easy and you can save enough of the homemade vegan meat in the freezer for a long time if you wrap it in a plastic bag, and take a handful to cook every time. Here are some recipes: www.youtube.com/results?search… and www.youtube.com/results?q=seit… They all taste different, so you should try and stick with the ones you like most. Good luck!
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Can you try a vegan restaurant and ask them for advice what to order? Maybe you find something that suits you, or start liking how a certain vegetable is prepared that you might still like to eat it. I used to hate zucchini but after eating one well-prepared meal with them, now they are one of my favourite veggies. Same happened to me with tomato.
Good luck, either case. 
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I also don't understand people who say they are afraid so-called friends will judge them. If a so-called friend is mean when one is trying to make more compassionate choices and one is afraid, it is time to reconsider that friendship. From experience helping a dying person, these types of false friends will not be there when they are needed for anything else more serious either, let alone supporting kinder purchases. It is better to have compassionate friends and/or go out and make some new friendships.
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I think it's just like with bullying - many bullies follow the "main" bully because they're afraid to be judged and ridiculed when they want to defend the victim. After all, society has this "picking on the weak is cool" mentality.
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So many consumers say they want cruelty-free items to buy, but then say it is too hard to ask store managers for them. Why settle for less, for the consumers or our fellow Earthlings? We are the customers and shop keepers and restaurant owners stock what we pay for. The customer is king. If we want a more compassionate world, we have to fund it with our purchases.
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A rising number of people is demanding vegan options though. I see more and more vegan products appear in the supermarket every year. It saves me the time of having to prepare my food myself.
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Agree- I live in a remote area and being vegan is easy enough. The products sell well too.
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It's strange how vegans and non vegans think so differently. Carnists see something like this and as the person below this did, they find it seriously awkward and uncomfortable, i'm guessing it's because of their subconscious guilt, or maybe valuing an animal's life is so foreign and unheard of to them that they just cringe or awkwardly laugh.
If feel so disconnected from carnists, they're so different from me, yet I know it is probably ignorance that causes this. Whenever a carnist tries to bribe me into eating animal products again I feel very offended, but I try to realise they just don't know how strongly I feel about this subject, how it's not just a diet, it's a strong rooted moral belief for me. I look at dead animals the same way I'd look at a dead human, I'm just as likely to eat a dead human as I am an animal, I'd feel sick to my very soul if I ever ate one, and every time I see meat and animal products I immediately see what is behind it. The chics in the grinder, the cows shrieking as their throats are slit, and I know people dont realise that. When someone goes out of their way to buy and ADD meat to my cooked vegan meals for them to eat I seriously cant feel neutral about it, I feel angry, and it's hard to empathise with their blissful ignorance :c
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Yeah, most people are just ignorant and brainwashed. Some actually believe that consuming the breast milk of another species in adulthood like a bunch of imbeciles is normal and natural behaviour. They don't see how absurd it is because they have been taught this way, just like how the people of Yulin don't see the absurdity and cruelty in their dog meat festival and how people in Iran don't see what's wrong with marrying 8-year old children. They've been taught this way by society, their culture, tv-commercials etc. Sadly their ignorance goes at the expense of many victims. But that's why we should never give up and always spread awareness! <3
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when you read something and just cringe
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