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RobynRose β DA's Commission System and Minimum Wage
Published: 2013-04-11 23:38:27 +0000 UTC; Views: 33894; Favourites: 188; Downloads: 0
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DA has recently announced a new portal for users to search through those offering commissions to find artists they want to support .
The commissions system will be handled using DA's internal currency system of points, of which DA takes a royalty from.
Commissions are allowed to start at 10 points each for any type of art produced, from rough sketches and small icons to full digital works. Commissions is a great way for artists to offer their services, but are we creating a low-wage market where over-abundance of supply and lack of unification undercuts everyone?
That is to say, how can we guarantee that artists get paid fairly for their work?
- 10 points is roughly 13 cents. 1000 points may seem like a large commission, but it's really only $10.
- Right now DA takes a 20% cut of point commissions.
- DA's commission system also has a $50 cap set on it. Many professional artists charge much more for full, detailed art and simply won't use the system for professional work.
For more information on industry standard pricing and salaries, see the jornal below. Beside it is a USD to points calculator.
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For an hour's worth of work, 10 pts / 13 cents is a pitiful wage, yet many young, inexperienced artists are willing to offer their work for such low costs. Worse, they're afraid of seeming greedy if they charge too much, and will undercut an artist that values their work at or above minimum wage.
We also have the problem of hobby and amateur* artists competing with professional artists** who want to create for a living. Amateurs don't care about wage and do it for fun, or don't feel like their art is worth much, and so offer a much lower price for their work.
Should DA work to ensure that artists who are providing real-money commissions work for at least minimum wage?
Should there be a set minimum price for certain complicated works like full-body drawings and animated art?
Also, what about commercial use and licensing? What are these commissions for and how will they be used?
I've had a lot of shady and questionable offers for my work, some of which I have been scammed into doing. I regret those decisions, but they have helped to make me less naive about the world of buying and selling intellectual property. Other artists will inevitbly experience the same thing at some point in their careers, but I feel as though older and more experienced artists have a responsibility to encourage new artists to value their work at a livable price, whether they feel like it is worth that or not.
In such a low-wage environment, how can we ensure that new, young, inexperienced artists are not being ripped off and abused by those who want free or cheap art and may even try to profit off of an artist's work?
My suggestions so far:
*In this case I define an amateur artist as someone
- Who draws as a hobby or simply for enjoyment
- May not have schooling or training in art
- Does not earn living income off of their art (they may take in money with a "jobby" but it's not the sole income)
- May not be able to guarantee quality or deadlines
- May be young, still in school or in a career that has nothing to do with art as their main job
- Does not consider themselves and their work professional
**A professional artist would be
- Someone who is trying to make most or all of their living income from their art
- Someone who charges industry standard price for their art
- Someone who usually has some form of training / schooling or a skill level that is the equivalent
- Someone who can guarantee quality and deadlines
- Someone who considers themselves and their work professional
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Comments: 356
But points cost money to buy. I don't understand the mentality of being willing to spend money on points, but not directly on the art. Because when you buy the points, both you and the person you're commissioning lose out.
Basically this comment says it better than I can: [link] "WHY would any good person demand their potential customers pay $50 for the ability to purchase $40 worth of art?"
I can see why points work as an in-site currency for site functions like saving up for a subscription or a group subscription or badges or what-have-you, and maybe for smaller things, like adoptables or downloadable resources. I can see why they're useful for people who can't just spend money. But I still wouldn't ever use them for commissions.
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That "OK to spend on spend on points, but not on art directly" mentality doesn't exist. A good amount of people who're looking to part with points never bought those points, in the first place. Mostly kids, who don't have bank accounts and whatnot. Thus, whatever the reason, they'll only be interested in paying you with their earned points, best case scenario.
In the event they can and want to pay with other methods such as Paypal, they will avoid dA's system, problem solved.
That's how the system really works, it wasn't designed to do something else.
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No, I get that, and no offense to them, but people without money aren't really people I'd look to earn money from.
I guess what I'm really disappointed about is the fact that, like you said, the system wasn't designed to do anything else. I expected better. People have been hoping for a commissions system for years, because it provides a more structured, safer way to do commissions. This thing could have been so much more, but it's all just centered around the in-site currency. It's wasted potential. If they want more people to use it, it needs to be more flexible and more attractive.
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Personally I do not think a professional artist should be brokering deals through DA, and I doubt thats the point of the system.
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I tend to agree. The whole thing seems to be to be designed for the very young, for-fun, low-level fan art, pixel doll, draw-me-as-a-cartoon-kitty kind of "commission" which gets worked on after homework is done and their room is clean. I take this as seriously as I do Llama collecting, and buying tiny Llama sunglasses, which I avoid entirely. But some people think that's fun, so whatevs. Just leave the damn thing alone then? It's not like the evil mandatory changes to basic User functions that effects (fucks up) everyone on DA -so BFD
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the whole commission involvement they've made is GARBAGE to rob us of part of our payments!
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Actually for my 3 year stay on da, I've been asked about point commissions. I don't know anything on how point commissions work so I don't take any. This however answered some of my questions regarding point commissions so thanks!
DA should impose a minimum wage on point commissions considering the cash value you posted. It seems unfair to some artists that take more than a day to finish their work.
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My view on this is that if you're offering commissions over $50, you're not a beginner or amateur dicking around with the idea of offering commissions -- you're offering them seriously with intent on providing results. Using DA's own commission system probably doesn't even register for artists advanced enough to confidently ask for serious money for their work, if only because the whole points system is just another middleman to the middleman that's not worth dealing with. They want their services in exchange for actual money, so PayPal becomes a service of choice.
The DA commission system would technically be lowering standards, but I think anyone who knows what they're doing also has commission and business interests OUTSIDE of the DA community as well, and therefore don't use it as a yardstick.
Not to undermine amateurs, but unless you get to the point where you're making a living off of your art, (or are good/recognized enough to place true value to your work,) these limitations will likely rarely be breached.
That said, don't sell yourself for 10 points. Remember the real value of those points. 100 points does not equal 100 dollars, eesh.
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I do agree that users need to charge more than just a small amount of points for commissions, but I am sure there are examples that justify smaller amounts too, just as there are examples that justify larger amounts. This is why, at least at launch here, smaller 10 point commissions are accepted. One thing I hope will happen with commissions is people will start seeing what their commissions are worth from the enthusiasm of "wow, I got this for 60 points?" I was talking with someone today with that same example, where he argued UP to that, which was hard to do as the artist wasn't sure about it, but would have happily paid 3-400 points as it was a quality piece. It is a learning curve and, as we're just getting started, people aren't sure what to charge yet or feel their art is worth it. We need more people like you saying YES it's worth 300 points for an icon, not 30.
I know I have had that issue when I'm hesitant to charge more than $30 because I don't want to scare the potential buyer off.
For professional artists and anyone who wishes to charge a heftier fee, we do have a professional alternative called Dreamup: [link]
While it's not a free-for-all like deviantART is, where anyone can submit anything, it is a very good place for the more expensive commissions that we hope more people will be able to use and profit from. It is different from commissions as it is a website totally devoted to finding and hiring artists.
I hope you have expressed your concerns and suggestions on the portal journal and also have added your screenshots there. We are looking very closely at every comment as it is in both yours and our interest that commissions is successful. 
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Question: The max cap for the commission widget is ~$50. The min price for Dreamup is ~$200.
Using myself as an example here (and I know this makes the minimum wage thing go out the window): I have a well paying job for my age, I make about $15 an hour. That's how much I have been told for the past 3 years my time is worth. I typically spend 5-6 hours on a single character drawing (the most popular type of commission I get).
$15 x 5.5 hours = $82.50.
... Where do I go to offer commissions at that price? I can't go to Dreamup: my prices are too cheap. And the commissions widget cap won't allow me to sell anything that would take longer than 3 hours without cutting prices.
And I know you're probably the wrong person to ask, but this just bugs me. Why the silent gap where all the reasonably priced simple commissions are?
*if my numbers are off a bit, consider them ballpark numbers.
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I'm not sure why the gap - I'm not sure there actually is a gap, but, eh - but most virtual currencies - which is what dA points are - are extremely susceptible to abuse through money laundering. I wouldn't be hugely surprised if the weird $50 cap was an effort to make dA less attractive a middleman for that sort of thing.
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That is most definitely a gap in prices. You're correct that I don't know as much about dreamup as I should as it is all but a different website.
I can offer you an example of how I have in the past, before the commissions widget and portal, structured my commissions. It is not a single button click, but maybe this will work for you.
Example prices, as I couldn't find where I put my pricing structure:
Half body: $20
Full body: $35
Second person: $20
Simple background: $20
Complex background: $40
Color: $40
There are many ways the commissions widget can be utilized and stacking multiple parts for a true custom commission is one of the ways to make that happen. For anything below full and half body in the list above, I would then explain in the commission description that this is just an add-on for my character art and to find the main full or half body one on my userpage.
For each add-on, I would also have example images to make sure they see what a potential "finished" version would be. Not only will this help those curious to know that I am the correct artist for the job, it will show people that are browsing the portal my art up front and easily. Everyone should have example pieces shown whenever possible, if only because we are forming the portal now. 
This is one way you could positively exploit our commissions system as it currently is to make sure that you get fair compensation for your work.
I hope this helps.
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This is a great comment right here, with using the widget for 'add-ons' as well, I'd never thought of that. Not that I do professional-priced commissions (actually I do insanely cheap ones just for the fun of it lol) but its a good thought. Maybe that should be added to the portal blog itself, to get others thinking
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I actually came up with an idea for offering add-ons through the individual commission itself , but I don't know that it's going to be implemented.
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That's a pretty cool mockup. Did you post it in the portal journal?
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The commissions Portal journals? No. I don't have access to comment on those (not an alpha tester).
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Very nice! Commented and fav'd
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Thanks. (and while I don't use craigslist [O.O] I know what you mean about examples.
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...I think the point commission system is pretty shady to begin with, and I really don't see how it's practical. Ultimately, the artist don't earn any money from this, since points can't be converted back to money. (Unless I am mistaken.) It would also be ridiculous for DA to take a 20% cut of the point commission because all the money from buying coins goes to DA anyway. Even though the points technically goes to the other artist, overall the effect is to increase the sell of points.
I honestly don't think anyone should use this system at all, regardless of minimum wage. I mean, some artists are particularly generous and likes to provide freebies or cheap art, that's fine, but that is not really "commission", that's just... people being nice. Some artists may also offer some cheap art to continue their subscription, that's also fine and good. But to promote that as "commission" just seem very inappropriate.
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Points can now be redeemed for real money, but at a 20% cut.
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Eh... that still doesn't sound fair...
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so, in order for people to get money from points, they have to give up 20% of their cut?
the commission system seems useless if that's how it's really run...
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The whole point of the new Commission widget is to be able to convert points into actual money when doing point commissions
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Oh I see... I still don't see how that would help artists earn much money though. 20% cut seems to be quite a lot. I still don't see why anyone would do point commission as oppose to using paypal.
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It's for people who can only get points but wants to pay the artist real money. So like, they would get the points from commissions or donations and then commission other artists with "real money" via the Commission widget (or motivate the artists who didn't have points commission open to have that open as well).
It's not really designed for people who are professionals.
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Yes, hence the 20% transaction fee. It is quite a hassle to convert fake money back into real money. But, a lot of people are complaining and pressuring other artists to not use them as well. :<
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This is something I think needed to be said, sure, it's one thing if someone doesn't care if they don't get "much", but it hurts those who want to charge a price that reflects a minimum wage. I feel that pressure of looking "greedy" for charging what I do, but I always relate it back to time, and that's how I know I'm being at least somewhat fair to myself. If I don't charge a fair price, then it makes it that much harder for anyone else to.
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Suggestion C. Hopefully it's not based solely on how much you charge, because if it is... I'd exploit the hell out of it.
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It should be balanced with a review and ranking system similar to Ebay or etsy. Too many bad flags and a seller should be reviewed by admin and either banned from selling or have reduced exposure.
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I think the biggest issue here is the dA works very well as a gallery site, but not well as a commissions site. There's a difference between artists making fine art and then putting it up where people can buy it or not, a people paying artists to create things for them. As a gallery site, people really don't need to advertise themselves; the art does that for them, but as a commissions site, people need advertising... and advertising costs money, or at least, it costs having the skill set for what a person is willing to pay. I really don't have a problem with the way dA does prints and stuff as that's all in dollar amounts and it's the artist's choice to have prints or not, and having prints doesn't penalize the artist any. But the way the commission widget is set up does penalize the artist and that's not good.
What also makes this harder is that a lot of artists are not aware of what dollar amount their skills are worth, and the only way to know that is to know how much people will pay for that amount of skill. And often, what people are willing to pay does not match up to the amount of work an artist put into their art. Add to that professional artists will most likely have another site apart from dA...
I think what really needs to happen is for dA to be more up-front with dollar amounts vs. points. I'd say they should get more into what other people charge for a similar type/quality of work, but as dA is a global community, that really doesn't work well.
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Yeah, but DA is NOT the right place to make a job of it... It's more a suportive cash revenue, a bonus.
That said, I hope they pay well and just for what is done.
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I think artists should charge what they want. They shouldn't feel pressured by other artists to increase OR decrease their prices if they don't want to. If an artist charging $5 is told they could get $50 for their work and they increase their price, that's fine. But there should be absolutely no bullying artists to put their prices higher. This is especially true for artists who can only get $5 for their work because no one will purchase it for higher. It's their art, their time, their choice.
There is a huge supply of artists, though, and demand fluctuates. If an artist is charging 10 points/13 cents for their work and gets commissions, but could not net any commissions at 100 points for their work (which is still ridiculously low for the usual amount of time these take, but it's an example), that's an issue they have to face and make the decision what they want to do: keep charging low prices, wait for someone to purchase a higher priced one someday, or quit doing commissions because the price doesn't match the time.
Buyers are always going to look for a lower price. If someone is offering a drawing for $100 and someone equivalently talented is offering one for $50, they'll probably go for the lower priced one if both services are equal. Of course, art is never perfectly equal but lower prices drive purchase. I just don't see a point of pushing that an artist should get minimum wage for their work if they have an issue of not having any buyers willing to purchase from them at that price. If they do, that's great! But the fact is, generally? They don't.
Someone below mentioned a scenario where an artist charged $20 and netted nothing, but then charged $10 and netted $200. It's up to each individual artist to decide whether they want $0 at the end of the day, or $200, and whether it's worth their time.
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I have many dreams, and while I fall under the Amateur/Hobby category, I do plan on earning money with art someday (I want to earn more for my family). Right now, I'm doing commissions at rather cheap prices, but only because 1) I don't have such skill, 2)My art is worth that much, and 3) I'm giving it to others.
However, I do like your suggestion a lot. Option C & A are my pick.
Sure, I don't mind not getting commissions- I'd rather have someone who needs the cash get paid than me. (hence why I still don't use the widget)
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Honestly, I really, really, dislike this commission system. And the whole concept of points in general. It has seriously devalued art which is tragic to see, I still can't believe some people will charge five cents for a detailed image.
I've actually had a lot of kids come up to me and say that I'm charging too much because I won't go below a dollar an hour. I normally charge $1.33-$3.33 per hour for most images simply because I don't have a large enough fanbase to put whatever pricetag I want on it. For private, more serious commissions (like for somebody IRL or detailed/larger traditional work) I will charge a more fair $9.50 per hour. But it's still very disheartening when I have multiple people telling to to work for mere pennies because they only have points... I am trying to get into college and with tuition being many thousands of dollars up front, putting in four or more hours of work for fake currency is just a... massive waste of time. Even if I were to use the new deviantart features to turn the points into USD, they still take off an excessive 20% plus an extra dollar fee since I don't have a premium. Besides, even if I were to charge the buyer for the amount of those fees, the limit makes it difficult to charge a fair working wage. $40-$50 is unlikely to even get you a simple sketch from a professional artist. While I am not a professional, art is my only job and letting dA devalue it any more is ridiculous and no one else should have to put up with it either, amateur or no. Things like these are why many users are losing faith in DeviantArt. I've said it before, but it's sad that one of the biggest art sites on the web is just contributing to the devaluation of artwork.... you think they out of all people would understand?
I am probably rambling by now, but my point is... dA needs to fix this stuff! I've seen them add so many useless features that only distanced users more and it seems they don't listen. I can only hope just enough people protest so they consider doing something for once.
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as I quipped a bit internet cold ass style, DA is not really a site of pro arts and artists... it's not 'serious'.
But you have good points.
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I am sorry but I thought DA main purpose was to display (show off) their art (hobbyist, amateur, or professional). If someone wanted to sell stock/art for income, you would put a link to a site that catered to professional art sales like [link] . Or sell professional stock on a site like [link] .
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DA is always good for complicating a subject and making poor decisions with new widgets and upgrades etc.....
The only reason why the 'service' exists is because DA wants a piece of the pie.
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Nicely done defining the differences between hobbyists and professional artists. It's why I'm afraid to do legit commissions, even cheap ones, since I have yet to get a tablet, learn all of Photoshop's tricks, and refine my skills at a school. I may have improved a lot since last year, but I'm not a professional and don't want to undermine the work of the amazing work of artists here at dA by me offering to draw on the cheap.
I may eventually offer to quality vector wallpapers of peoples' OCs and FCs for a small price, once I have a tablet and get better, but until I have some formal schooling under my belt, and can create professional quality works, I'll leave the real commissions to the advanced artists on dA. Great artists should get the pay they deserve, and commissioners should get the most for their money; that's the way I see it.
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i think option C is a really good suggestion. c:
*coughcoughHINTHINTDEVIANTARTcoughcough*
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I've been taking commissions via Paypal (the 'usual' way?) because there is no way I can accept commissions at the price cap - most of the projects I make cost that much in materials alone. :U
There is absolutely no reason for me to use the widget unless the 20% is lowered and the $50 cap is increased, and even on top of that adding to Paypal fees anyway makes it just a headache.
Instead of making things easier for artists, it just seems to me dA is making it more complicated.
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My point-of-view in the situation of "professionals" being upset by what the amateurs and hobbyists is as follows: some people can't afford to spend one hundred bucks a pop for the pictures they really want, but they can afford ones that are maybe ten dollars (which would likely be the most I would charge in most situations).
As a hypothetical situation, I would love to have a nice, commissioned print of my fantroll, Halynn, but I don't have many points with which to buy that from Artist A, who charges fifty dollars for only a sketch. Artist B charges maybe five dollars total for a coloured picture, and he or she has pretty good quality artwork despite it only being a hobby for him or her.
Besides, I think the cheaper commissions would gather more revenue in the long run because more people can afford to buy them. Plus it's more convenient because it's not as mch pressure to "give themtheir money's worth, so it's less stressful in general.
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I think the problem is that people have no idea what points are worth IRL. If someone charges 200 points for something, it looks like a heck of a lot on the surface, even if it isn't.
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Excellent job defining professional and amatuer.
The real issue though, is defining what 'fair' means. It's already mentioned, but points are *probably* not meant to be used by professionals considering that points have extremely limited uses. I don't see much of a point trying to establish what's fair when we're not dealing with people's livelihoods.
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Nice article Kxhara! ItΒ΄s ever a good discussion.
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ThatΒ΄s the old problem of trying to explain people way of how the artistic profession works. The costs of a job is based of how much the client pretend to gain using your artwork, and the price would be a fair percentage of this gain.
We live in a society which donΒ΄t valorize in the right way the artwork, the artists and designers. Depend of us, in our behavior and offering the right prices, making a better professional envinroment.
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Things like this make me thank God that I'm studying to be an architect and I could never really use dA as a platform for it save to show my WIP's and sketches.
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This is totally moot so long as there's a $50 price cap and a 20% DA fee. No one looking to make decent money off of their art is going to use that system, certainly not if they've been doing commissions on their own terms up til now. So trying to enforce some kind of minimum wage policy would be ridiculous (as well as impossible, as there's no way of monitoring how much time someone spends on their art, and time spent isn't an indicator of quality).
I think this is a system that will appeal to the young, student-aged userbase that does tiny commissions mostly for fun/practice/lunch money (?). Maybe some of the bigger artists would offer simple items through it (like icons) so they'll show up in the commission lists and then do their regular commissions through notes/email as usual. It just seems like a waste. If the price cap was higher and the fee lower (i.e. competitive with the paypal fee) I'd be interested.
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