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RobynRose — DA's Commission System and Minimum Wage
Published: 2013-04-11 23:38:27 +0000 UTC; Views: 33950; Favourites: 188; Downloads: 0
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DA has recently announced a new portal for users to search through those offering commissions to find artists they want to support .
The commissions system will be handled using DA's internal currency system of points, of which DA takes a royalty from.
Commissions are allowed to start at 10 points each for any type of art produced, from rough sketches and small icons to full digital works. Commissions is a great way for artists to offer their services, but are we creating a low-wage market where over-abundance of supply and lack of unification undercuts everyone?
That is to say, how can we guarantee that artists get paid fairly for their work?
- 10 points is roughly 13 cents. 1000 points may seem like a large commission, but it's really only $10.
- Right now DA takes a 20% cut of point commissions.
- DA's commission system also has a $50 cap set on it. Many professional artists charge much more for full, detailed art and simply won't use the system for professional work.
For more information on industry standard pricing and salaries, see the jornal below. Beside it is a USD to points calculator.
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For an hour's worth of work, 10 pts / 13 cents is a pitiful wage, yet many young, inexperienced artists are willing to offer their work for such low costs. Worse, they're afraid of seeming greedy if they charge too much, and will undercut an artist that values their work at or above minimum wage.
We also have the problem of hobby and amateur* artists competing with professional artists** who want to create for a living. Amateurs don't care about wage and do it for fun, or don't feel like their art is worth much, and so offer a much lower price for their work.
Should DA work to ensure that artists who are providing real-money commissions work for at least minimum wage?
Should there be a set minimum price for certain complicated works like full-body drawings and animated art?
Also, what about commercial use and licensing? What are these commissions for and how will they be used?
I've had a lot of shady and questionable offers for my work, some of which I have been scammed into doing. I regret those decisions, but they have helped to make me less naive about the world of buying and selling intellectual property. Other artists will inevitbly experience the same thing at some point in their careers, but I feel as though older and more experienced artists have a responsibility to encourage new artists to value their work at a livable price, whether they feel like it is worth that or not.
In such a low-wage environment, how can we ensure that new, young, inexperienced artists are not being ripped off and abused by those who want free or cheap art and may even try to profit off of an artist's work?
My suggestions so far:
*In this case I define an amateur artist as someone
- Who draws as a hobby or simply for enjoyment
- May not have schooling or training in art
- Does not earn living income off of their art (they may take in money with a "jobby" but it's not the sole income)
- May not be able to guarantee quality or deadlines
- May be young, still in school or in a career that has nothing to do with art as their main job
- Does not consider themselves and their work professional
**A professional artist would be
- Someone who is trying to make most or all of their living income from their art
- Someone who charges industry standard price for their art
- Someone who usually has some form of training / schooling or a skill level that is the equivalent
- Someone who can guarantee quality and deadlines
- Someone who considers themselves and their work professional
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Comments: 356
Um, you may not care about US law, but US lawyers certainly do. If you do something illegal on the internet you can be affected in real life. This includes $250,000 copyright fines or jailtime for infringement (as an example)
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I'm well aware of that. But, we just don't understand each other, so let's leave it at this.
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lol i'm repeating the same things i always say but whatever
"how can we guarantee that artists get paid fairly for their work?"
no, da shouldn't do anything to help artists get paid fairly. that is the artist's responsibility, not da's. artists need to make the effort to learn about prices, look at what other artists are selling, and decide for themselves what to sell. and if an artist wants to charge less than min wage, they should be able to w/o da forcing them to, or forcing commissioners to pay them min wage. so, there should be no minimum (except the 10 point thing that's already there)
i have (money) commissioned artists several times throughout my time on da. but my highest was around $35 i think. but i wouldn't have bought commissions if every artist charged min wage or above. if they had, i would barely be able to afford to buy commissions at all. and if you think I'M poor, realize that there are many people who have even less money than i have. they rarely or never commission artists. i commission artists more than a lot of other people do. i'm not trying to brag, that really is the truth. in fact, 3/4 of people on da never commission anyone. (there was a poll at the bottom of the site that said that)
"We also have the problem of hobby and amateur artists competing with professional artists who want to create for a living."
THIS.
PEOPLE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THIS. this is the root of the problem.
people need to understand that not every artist is at professional level or well-known. we are all at different skill levels and popularity levels. (yes, "popularity" matters when you try to sell commissions) a high-quality professional selling for a low price is underselling. but someone who isn't at that high level of art yet... their art actually IS worth a low price and telling them to raise their prices is a mistake.
"Also, what about commercial use and licensing? What are these commissions for and how will they be used?"
let the artists and buyers decide those things for themselves, not da.
"Worse, they're afraid of seeming greedy if they charge too much"
it's not just a fear of seeming greedy, it's the fear of simply not getting any commissions. and, i think that people who get commissioned often don't understand what it's like to be someone who rarely or never gets commissioned. i and others like that have no guarantee that someone will commission us at all. we don't have the option of "should i charge a low price or a high price?" our option is "should i charge a low price or not get commissioned at all?"
and, people who sell commissions need to understand that there are two different types of commissions: art that will be used for something (like a book cover) and art that is just there to look at and make the commissioner happy, and it's not actually used for a specific purpose. i and a lot of others on this site have NO NEED for the first type and we buy commissions just for fun, to make us happy. buyers of the second type honestly need the commission. if they can't afford the commission from the artist they want, they'll say "i need to save up my money for a while!!" but buyers of the first type don't truly need it, we just commission as an extra fun thing to do. so if we can't afford the commission, we could save up but we are more likely to just say "oh well" and spend our money on art supplies or clothes or something else that we actually have a need for.
i have been thinking that da needs to have two separate forums for job offers/services: one for professional artists who are able to successfully sell commissions for high prices, and they are making a lot of money to pay bills or something. and the other forum for people like me who just want to sell for a low price and we are not trying to make serious money off of them that we need to help pay our living. the problem is that the pro artists and the affordable artists are all mixed together. each side does not understand the other. the pro artists think "why in the world are you happy to only receive a low price??" and the affordable artists think "how can you possibly expect to sell a commission for that high a price??"
the problem is where do you draw the line between the two? it's not like there is one clear line...
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some of those standard rates you've linked to are not so standard. your man is rating some aspects of artistic positions incredibly high. it may cause difficulty for emerging professionals who are still lacking certain qualities, either socially or in skill.
they're not all misleading, but i think it would be prudent for your readers to cross reference his price 'guide' with some other research before jumping out into the world.
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If you cna find a better article, I would be happy to link it. i know there are some infographics floating around on tumblr, but I'd have to hunt them down.
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Well, the article is almost three years old, and the numbers are at least seven years old. I suspect they were pretty much accurate then, but, yeah, some of the project prices in particular bear very little relationship to reality at the moment.
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As much as I don't agree with this, I think if dA is going to take 20% profit off our commissions, they should at least try to use that money to fix some of the major bugs I keep finding on this site or maybe try and pay a little more attention to violation reports, since I'm sick of reporting stolen artwork and getting no response whatsoever. I understand it's a colossal amount of work, but you'd think they'd have enough money to sort it out now? :/
Also, I don't think it's fair that premium members have to get 20% taken off their payment, considering they are paying the site monthly anyway.
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Seriously agree, dA's moderation problems are downright shameful. I found some of my artwork reposted on tumblr a few times. tumblr is huge and they responded to my e-mail within 24 hours-- a couple of times they've responded within half an hour.
Meanwhile it takes dA's admins like six months to get to anything... >_> Honestly it's embarrassing.
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They already get basically free money from the 1% of users that buy premium. I'm 99% positive the added features are just a permissions change in their database, I doubt that takes up any manhours as its an automated process.
Giving them more money is not the way to motivate them to fix bugs/art theft. At the moment, I'm not sure what is. The individuals who do it because its their calling would do it anyways, and I doubt dA's giving them a pay raise just for picking away at the mountain.
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does da know that any other legitimate facilitation fee is never more than 10%?
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Try that in a real art gallery and see if that works.
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I think the idea is that artists would make art that is worth about $10-$50 or whatever the price range it is through the commission system to promote themselves and then the more expensive art can be sold through other means.
That being said, them taking 20% of what you're earning is kind of ridiculous especially with all the art theft problems that are still happening in DA.
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I had no idea about the 13-cent to $50 price range limit. That's disgusting. :/
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For what it's worth, the commission system isn't for pros, it's strictly for those looking to convert points into money.
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It's a tough one because people, no matter how experienced, will always suffer on DA because there will always be someone else who can offer lower prices.
I know a few people who are selling themselves far too short and I don't even bother half the time to advertise here because £200 for a fully detailed painting on DA won't get any takers. And if someone wants a commission from me they can ask me, why should DA take %20 just through recognition.
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Maybe all this just shows how saturated supply is, for the low-end market. In some fields, anyway.
Truth be told, I covertly snap every time I hear about how hobbyists and amateurs' competing with professionals is labeled as a "problem." If half the bloody globe could afford to do this for cheaper or for free, wouldn't the real rip-off be charging more for it?
This isn't something that oh me gosh we have to fix, it's an inevitable outcome of the evolution of our culture and tools, and it's only going to swing even farther in that direction, as things become more and more accessible to the masses. It's why people say the 3d printer's a job killer in the making, for example.
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Good points and that link is very good. Even +spyed asked why users were offering such lower prices at 10 
The Commission Widget wasn't really meant for actual professional artists. Not at least at this point. This is just one of the ways to use and convert points into money. Actual money based sellers don't really need to use this. But this opens up another small niche for them if they choose to use it. And that's for users who can only pay with points and don't have other means of paying. Provided of course one chooses to sell at those prices in the widget limit. If that means someone is willing to get even some points converted to money while doing their 100+ works, that's up to them. But those who are using the commission system or trying to earn money this way, or any way that involves art selling would have to step out and research a bit more as to what other users are doing in terms of content, quality, pricing etc. Research is important.
If I remember correctly, several staff, including $Heidi had mentioned in those articles that this is just the starting point for the commission widget (and more likely the Premium Content Platform as well). That means they will increase the upper limits after they see how it goes. It might also have tiered pricing slots from what I can remember.
dA is already working up on an actual site/platform for professional artists. Like `Krissi001 mentioned. DreamUP .
For those who might be doing it as a hobby, this could be a moderate start for them. But the main thing still applies is that if something isn't selling at the price, even if it's such cheap, one thing would be to practice to increase the quality of the work to be able to charge the prices that suit their work and time and resources spent, practice working on a faster method that will not affect quality but will likely result in the time spent.
But the fact is, there should be a pretty good idea when ever someone buys points, or anything, given how heavily it's advertised, that 80
Here's a thread with some more helpful links regarding commissions. This will likely be helpful, and also read through the others' comments which give more insights.
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Also, another workaround is that (while not directly related to the 'low pricing'), now that they have introduced the commission portal, those who do paid works only, they can simply open a commission widget, include they are doing paid job offers through paypal or other means with money and still use the widget to advertise their commissions.
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I think the commission widget should have the real money price beside the points price, simply to let people know how much they are actually paying, even if they prices were low. Something like: Price: 300
And sure, professionals have Dreamup, like `Krissi001 mentioned, but there's no widget or anything else for anyone between "the young and naive the points system exploits" and real deal professionals who charge hundreds or thousands of dollars for one piece/project. dA offers nothing for avarage internet artists who wants to earn a little extra cash (and I mean those who charge usually around $20 - 100+)
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I think the commission widget should have the real money price beside the points price, simply to let people know how much they are actually paying, even if they prices were low. Something like: Price: 300
It actually does that. You set the price in points in 10
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I meant that the dollar price would show in the widget deviants put on their profile page, visible for the (potential) buyer. It doesn't matter if I know what I get when people think I'm charging multiple times what the actual price is (eg how many assume that 300 points would equal around $30 instead of only $3.75)
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That certainly can be done.
But considering this is a heavily promoted scheme, the points system that is, it's really confusing how one can not get that 80
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Such a very powerful question and yet as Artists we all want to avoid the "rip off scheme"* that comes up way to often in this world of Commissions. Honestly I don't think you can really stop the rip off from happening at all but knowledge is the best tool against it. Know who you are pairing up with and if they haggle your stated prices then you may want to question yourself on why they are doing it and if that is even worth doing since people want to be cheap instead of appreciate your quality of work. I honestly was a bit surprised when I read 80 points= $1 and I kid you not that boggled my mind for a full hour. Others I shared that info with didn't even know and are now wondering what their art is really worth without a price tag of actual currency. DA does take a lot from your check but you can use them for advertizing and be part of a different system which doesn't charge so much like the Etsy Store or something similar to DA. Even then you should look into the site and see just how much they charge you to hold up your "shop" or "commissions" slots. Ensuring an artist gets his/her full worthy amount will be hard since websites need funds to run. But looking around and sharing what info you have found is the best way I feel you can show people "Hey I care".
*I feel this scheme comes up many times in an artists' life. At times we don't know it happens until it is too late. But it is something we grow from by either stating No to people or giving our art worthy prices to keep schemes like this at bay.*
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Unfortunately, (or fortunately for some select few) Deviant Art is a for profit company. They can really do whatever they want within the realms of the law. Whether or not what they are doing is ethical - not sure. 20% is pretty high, but not unheard of. Lots of bigger name galleries will take a 20% hanging fee from you if you sell a piece.
I've really never took DA seriously as a place to have a self-sustaining career. Mainly because it seems like the average user is under 18, lives with their parents and does not have a job to pay for said art. So maybe the points system actually works within the DA community. The whole 10 pts = 13 cents outside of DA is absurd and kind of hilarious.
I could see it being used as a commission training wheels of sorts for artists just starting out. But if those particular artists are serious about making their living off art: They'll soon move on, they'll have to.
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The commission widget isn't for professional Artists, Professional Artists should take a look at DreamUP
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I do not feel it is right to take 20% for simply connecting the artist to the commission... I certainly do not agree with a cap being put in place establishing a top price so low, I have a feeling they did this to insure their safety from law suits. I do, however disagree with the comment on amateur artist, i really don't find that term to be fair to anyone, being art is indeed subjective and all a matter of opinion. I paid with hard work and determination for my training in art and had always wanted to work in my field, it just did not work out that way and for that reason, some may deem me amateur. Also, I have met artist with extreme gifts developed 100% on their own while others who graduated along side me just aren't illustrators/painters, this does not make anyone amateur, just unique like everyone else in the world with what they can and can't do. Life is a non stop learning experience. We all have a choice to grow fast or slow... I want to say I appreciate your article for bringing all this to light, every voice counts and only the brave are willing to speak their truths so that you for being brave.
My thoughts on the article "graphic Artist of da" i agree with the logic of this article but sadly this is not how the working world works... Greed is generally not part of the artist make-up, being art normally comes from struggle and most people who struggle are poor. Most artist tend to undersell themselves only seeing the flaws in their works, which also makes it very hard to get a fair wage being most of the world will gladly take something for near nothing, feeling they won a prize by stealing it for practically free. I received my degree in commercial art and advertising design in 1992, and as a 41, almost 42 year old artist i have made next to NOTHING in a lifetime of commitment to my art. I know, as with everything in life that art is subjective and largely based on style and popularity, but I also know that I will keep trying no matter the outcome because it is something I love.
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I think that the Commissions Widget/portal- all of it is designed to take advantage of the young and naive. When you think about it, if this widget was really a tool for artists, with artists in mind, DA would make a widget that anyone could use, with a much higher cap, and a reasonable transaction fee for real money. No games, no fake currency illusions (where 1000 points is actually $12.50 because they know people equate points = cents when it doesn't ), just a no bullshit system where artists could charge what they're worth and hobbyists could do whatever as well.
Nothing justifies their %20 fee. I doubt "The Portal" will serve everyone well ( maybe a few people). Either that or they'll make the Commissions Portal brutally obnoxious for everyone on the Site and try to force people to look at it and advertise it *twitch*.
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how about people just dont use the system, and just go to the people directly, so da gets no profit?
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not many new artists know other ways + rumors at the moment DA is setting up a system to ban people who don't use the widget for commissions or force people to use it instead of journals and such
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It's just a rumor.
I've heard from several staff members that members can continue doing commissions the old way. And this statement also says something about it. "This is not PayPal. We know what PayPal is, and everyone is absolutely free to use it and encouraged to use it. "
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I seriously hope that isn't happening anytime soon.
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Hopefully it is a rumour and that is all or they will kill the site
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"For those who don't see the value in the widget, deviants still have the ability to provide commissions via the same methods they've always had. "
[link] At the end of the Article
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thats BS, DA dosent deserve to make money off of our artwork
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try telling them that but DA come from helping artists to just all about money money mone! They see us as dollar signs heck it pisses me off that on our B-day they STILL think it is ok to say, hey happy birthday, now buy premium off us -_-
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read my new forum post and see what you think [link]
hope its ok, i kninda took what you said lol, it helped get the point across
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no worries and I agree they are greedy, understand it is a site but heck they let stolen work on the front page, renders, bases stuff that shouldnt be on here as it is stolen be seen!!!!
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I say it is also stated how to price your work
Materials:
Price per hour:
Quality:
sadly unless you are famous on DA such as DD or front-page famous, people will think you are over-charging because they are used to others selling low which is a disagrace. I seen many good artists just as good as front page people selling for pennies! just because they are not as popular
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how about people just dont use the system, and just go to the people directly, so da gets no profit?
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It is also for those who don't use the widget, same way to price your work.
Using DA's rip-off widget or not still artists must price their work properly and not cater it around those who are greedy to not pay for what they get fairly
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i mean why use DA widget? if you dont use it, DA will not know if you made a sale. also, its BS that Da even gets a royalty if you dont use their widget. DA dosent deserve to profit off of our artwork.
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People will argue it is for using their site to advertise your art but there are other art websites which do this for free, DA is just getting more greedy with money more and more
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i know they have grown greedy, why charge us for commisions while they let us do it for free for years?
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guess they had enough and seen a way to get money out of us, heck even that download pay to get the file option is BS because they forgot to add that it takes the points off you as royalties + takes 2 weeks just to credit them to your account!!
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read this and comment [link]
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And this is why I really disapprove the point system, because somehow 1000 points translates as $1000 to people.
I seek commissions, but I usually keep my prices low only because I'm still an intermediate artist. I may switch to having being paid by the hour and get an up front payment in case they don't like it.
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how about people just dont use the system, and just go to the people directly, so da gets no profit?
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