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Velica β The curious case of the niqab
Published: 2010-02-11 01:16:47 +0000 UTC; Views: 18305; Favourites: 101; Downloads: 871
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Description
All across Europe a strange phenomenon is occurring.Both the left and right wing strongly oppose the use of niqΔb and the burqa by Muslim women. Months after the minaret ban in Switzerland commotion begun in France, UK, Germany and other European countries to ban the face enveloping garment.
However, and this is in my opinion the curious bit, the reasons behind this opposition are completely different between left and right wingers.
The right bases its argument on security and integration. This is, of course, a mask for the post-9/11 islamophobia and the result of a conservative bunch not liking to see people dressed differently. Maybe the next ban will be the Sikh turbans, then the tatoos, long hair and so on.
At the left the word of order is equality, female emancipation and fight against patriarchy.
From my description of things you can imagine I sit closer to the left than to the right. Yet, I can not agree with any sort of government-endorsed ban on clothing. I too disagree that women should cover themselves for fear of punishment, shame or any sort of oppressive force but it is up to them to initiate the struggle against it.
The western values of freedom, equality and emancipation should not be imposed to anyone. Instead these values should remain strong here amongst us and seduce other cultures to adopt them. If they want.
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Comments: 245
Alright then lets agree that though understanding and living/considering other cultures can be a pain at times, it's important not to make any assumptions, judge and or be intolerant/ignorant of other peoples cultures and be respectful however hard it may be. As it will lead to more intolerance.
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trust me I understand. You are going to have to back up your comments more with facts and proof to be able to sway me
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The problem I have with your comment is that you are generalizing woman's attitudes about this subject. I happen to be a Muslim in a western country, I am surrounded by women who feel proud to wear any sort of covering. If you understand the cartoon, it is saying that women who choose to wear them are being stereotyped as neglected weak females when (depending on the country) they are very capable, and educated women.
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but why do they choose to wear them? What is the point in them?
I didn't say they were not capable and not educated. What I am saying is I hate sexism 
Muslims can do what they want in their country's. But in our countrys they should follow our rules.
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The hi-jab is not sexist. They choose to wear them so that people will look at their personality and listen to their words and not judge them for their looks. It's true that in some countries some women are forced to wear them, but when you see a woman who wears a hi-jab in a country where not many people wear them, it shows that she wants to wear it. You are truly narrow minded for saying "they should follow our rules". Since when is one country's "rules" involve destroying your culture?
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First why do men not do it too?
yes but some woman have sued and bitched about not being able to wear them in jobs. One woman wanted to be a hair dresser and turned up in one and complained it was her right. Why would you want someone doing your hair when you can't even see her hair? Then someone tried wearing it at a childs school and sued. First the kids were scared at first but they need to see her lips and face. Naturally they both lost their court cases.
I don't mind them wearing the dress but when they cover there face you can't see there facial expressions at all and it makes it very hard to communicate and is unnecessary. I try hard to cover myself up and not wear anything revealing in Muslim country's and they should do the same for us. Otherwise it is ignorant and a bit rude to step into someone's country and then throw a bitch fit.
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The word "hi-jab" means modesty. Men don't wear head-scarfs because it just isn't meant for them. Men don't have to worry about being vulnerable to perverts, and womanizers. So the point of a Hi-jab is to protect women from being victimized in that way. Instead of being seen as a woman, hey will be seen as a person. But men wear a sort of "hi-jab" by being modest. Its true that the full on Bur-qua can be a little much, but its their culture. You cannot call someones beliefs "unnecessary" because its their way of life. Simple as that. When you say "they should do the same for us" it's disrespectful. The only thing they have to do is be a productive part of society. Modern countries are multicultural and should learn to accept that there is more than one way to live life. The people who sued in the first place are very intolerant of other cultures, and it has rubbed off on their children.
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Whats wrong as being seen as a woman? I heard that its the womans fault for seducing the man with her body and she will be punished if he rapes her. Why are woman allowed to be attracted to men but not the other way around? that seems sexist. Sure they might have there beliefs but we have ours. So they can go ahead and wear what they want but they shouldn't be surprised if they are rejected for a job or fired because they refuse to take it off.
I often get annoyed when people say we can no longer put up Christmas trees etc. because of someone else's beliefs in our country. Its a Christian country and it seems disrespectful for someone to then come into our home and boss us around. They should be grateful to be allowed in in the first place
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How dare you call something sexist if you cant even get your facts right. I never said it was wrong to be seen as a woman, Islam believes that women should be respected and protected, whatever her nationality or beliefs. Women and men are allowed to be attracted to each other but Islam does not allow adultery. What you mentioned is yet again, a cultural thing. Islam is against rape. I'm tired of answering your silly questions. This conversation has shown me that you don't know anything. You are a textbook example of an ignorant islamophobic. Your "they should be grateful to be allowed in the first place" attitude is shameful. I recommend that if you ever wish to debate someone about something, that you research it properly and have an open mind. I don't think i've ever talked to someone so intolerant and ignorant. Don't reply back to me or i'll report you. Learn the weight of your words.
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Its just my opinion dude get over it o.O I respect yours and you should respect mine. I've had a muslim bf and I was even going to become a Muslim. But guess what? Your words aren't fact. There are many different opinions out there. Get use to it ^^
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Firstly you don't understand the term "don't reply". Secondly, you obviously don't respect my opinion because you are using very degrading language and bad-mouthing my background. My words are fact and yours are built on ignorance. I'm not the person who constantly says: "I heard" or describes what i saw on TV and makes a judgment on a persons background. I'm a Muslim telling you the facts and you are ignoring me.
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well in Egypt some guys backed me and my mum in a corner and tried to rape us because we weren't wearing one. We were lucky because there are tourist police there making sure men don't get grabby. I covered up in those country's. I didn't wear a swim suit even. I followed there rules because I was a guest in their country. The least they can do is do the same for me in my country.
The don't reply thing? I don't think you have any means to get me banned because I said nothing but my own opinion. I think there are plenty of nice muslim people out there who don't take things to the extreme. I never said I didn't think that, I know lots of Muslims believe me, and I know its not the case with them. But I also said there is alot of people that treat there woman like slaves. Jeez all religions have bad and good people. I was merely pointing out the bad part where men use it as a form of sexism. If they don't where you are thats great for you but there are countrys where that is different. They would stone the woman for sleeping with another man but not the man.
I also think that everyone should have there own choices on marriage etc.
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in EGYPT = cultural
Islam is explicitly against arranged marriages. Countries with that problem have always been like that.
I don't think you knew how you sounded, you were using degrading language. You might as well of said "Get out of our country because you're not like us" I don't call that "expressing opinion". I have been constantly pointing out that there are countries with sexism problems. I have and Iranian background for heavens sake.
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I was saying that we shouldn't follow your rules in our own country =/ Its just something that irks me a lot. Same with anything: sexist, racist blah blah. I have no problem with muslims I just have problem with the extremists... sorry if you misunderstood
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Its not YOUR country its EVERYONE's country. That frame of mind is the reason why different culture in countries clump together, e.g. lebanese communities. The best that we can do is just accept their way of life and try to make a productive country. Just remember that those guys that attacked you in Egypt aren't extremists , they're just plain bad people.
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they have tourist police in Egypt because the Muslims there believe that anyone who is not wearing a nigab is up for anything and does not need to consent for it. They need them there or no tourists would come to Egypt and they would lose money.
The country is a Christian based country. Yes everyone has to live together and get along so everyone needs to follow rules and laws. If I was in a muslim country I would follow their rules and laws. Each country has its own set of rules and people need to respect that. They can wear a nigab if they want but not then try to sue someone when they get fired for refusing to take it off. Kids needed to see her spell out words with her mouth and read her facial expression. She should of just taken it off or quit and found a new job.
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This is why your argument is flawed. So what you are saying is that when you got to Islamic countries you have to cover up a bit more, fair enough right? no, because you say that when someone who does follow that country's rules an has an Islamic background, who had worn a nigab for most of their lives, comes to a country (which isn't actually Christian more like none) they are forced to give up their culture because some intolerant people believe that it is "against the rules". That's just islamophobia. That case you constantly refer to is just silly. 1. it is against the law to fire someone because of their culture. 2. they shouldn't of hired her in the first place if they knew that the kids haven't been exposed to other cultures. she did the right thing by taking it to court. When you say that "Muslims believe that anyone who is not wearing a nigab is up for anything and does not need consent for it" you are plain wrong. As i have said earlier Islam is against rape. Go read the Quran. You make too many assumptions from cultures.
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she lost her court case. She didn't do the right thing. She went to the interview not wearing it. Then went in on her first day fully dressed in one and refusing to take it off.
This is what I have been speaking of [link]
[link]
[link]
There are 2 sides to this because it is a matter of opinion. You should respect my side to it. It is cultural and not religious. Culture is not homogeneous - "One man's meat is another man's poison." Values differ from one culture to the next. For example, people of the western world shake everbodyβs hands β be they an elder or toddler. As a contrast to this, the Yoruba people find it offensive to shake the hands of elders. If you are a stranger to these cultures, it takes some time to learn and understand their customs
The fact that we should follow your cultures but you do not follow ours seems rather rude don't you think?
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well that's just her fault. But why would she wear it one day and not the next? lol.
i understand what you mean by the difference in cultures but you shouldn't judge their ENTIRE culture because they live differently. That example is RARE for someone who has moved to a western country knowing that they shake hands there. Western society doesn't have that many traditions, its mainly a free for all. People who have moved here from other countries DO follow western norms (apart from religions and clothing obviously) because they have to live in that environment. What you're saying is that they dont have the SAME way of life therefore it makes them rude for not being the same as everyone else. Saying that they are bad because its too hard to learn their customs is just plain ignorant. its common courtesy to understand ones culture.
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another thing i just noticed. "I was watching a episode of wife swap. Where they swapped a muslim woman and a woman from liverpool. The liverpool woman was talking to the young muslim girls, and you could see they were not happy.
Living in England they see what life they could of had or could have. They weren't even allowed to go out. They said they wanted to marry for love and not because they're parents had arranged it. The muslim woman did all the work around the house. I hope they 2 muslim girls get what they want, it be unfair if they were forced into something they did not want. Its scaring when you hear of all these "honour " killings..." You sound exactly like an Islamophobic.
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that little "extract" from your comment i pulled out sounds like a typical case of someone being confused with "culture" and "religion". You see, the Quran explicitly states that Allah does not approve arranged marriages. Those girls you were talking about probably come from a culture which approved of arranged marriages long before Islam came. You'd be surprised how much a culture can change a religion to better suit it's own needs.
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All those countries are trying to do is protect their culture. Every country has it's own culture and immigrants should be willing to accept the culture of their new country.
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But isn't culture an ever-changing aspect of Humanity? I mean, our current culture in Europe, the one we so desperately try to "protect", is a result of, to mention a few, Roman, Germanic, Arabic, Greek and influences alike, not to mention the massive cultural re-shape that happened after the "discovery" of the Americas.
But to be completely honest, ny culture hasn't changed a tad since I've been sharing the bus with woman wearing burqa, sikhs wearing turbans or public-school boys wearing expensive suites. Or maybe it has, now I know more about other cultures and expanded my mind.
All that should be expected of an emigrant is required to do is learn the language of its adoptive country and respect its laws.
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No.
Islamic cultures don't belong in Europe OR North America for that matter. Europe's history is full of successful people and I bet you couldn't even name 5 successful middle easterners.
But to be completely honest, ny culture hasn't changed a tad since I've been sharing the bus with woman wearing burqa, sikhs wearing turbans or public-school boys wearing expensive suites. Or maybe it has, now I know more about other cultures and expanded my mind.
...And you haven't even tried imagining what will happen when those children form their own families and have their own children? Wait, nvm you probably want the UK to become an Islamic republic.
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Portugal and Spain were once almost entirely Muslim (the Arab kingdoms extended all the way up to Barcelona). Many of their habits, technology and culture remained there after the Reconquista. For example, many Portuguese and Spanish words (not to mention all of the world's number system) are of Arabic origin. The navigation technology that the Portuguese and Spanish used to reach India, Africa and America was due to the legacy of the great Muslim mathematicians of the time. Muslim presence and culture had direct influence in the Balkans and indirectly in the rest of Europe through business and scientific exchange.
Don't forget that before Europe navigated away to conquer other lands and riches it was the Muslim world that held all the money and science.
You can find out more about Muslim scientists here: [link]
I assure you there are much more than 5 successful middle easterners.
An Islamic republic in the UK? Are you serious?
I know plenty second and third-generation British Muslims and none of them seems to have such evil plan in mind. Besides, what about us Atheists? We also live here. And the Christians, and the Jews and the Hindus and Mormons. Are we in danger of having a Mormon republic in the UK?
You can not be serious.
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I don't think they meant in any form Muslims have any sort of evil plot for Europe. Indeed I don't think any race is, or to say they want any invasion - there is extremist groups with those ideals in mind!
Of course I agree that cultures expanded off one another's ideas - but each is distinct in its own right today - Slavic culture, Arabic culture, etc etc. Not to say one overrides the other and they do share some beginnings. And yes I agree- Muslim culture had many VERY good things to give to the world. I Think where this divides is the fact that followers of the Islamic religion tend to have a very high birthrate. They have a worldwide diaspora which is not a bad thing just like many other ethnic groups in the world have had one of their own. However some people's concern lies in the matter that the group already established in that nation (not Natives, Inuits etc which had suffered similar fates although more violently) would in time be overrun because they tend to have much lower or even negative growth rates (like in the case of Russia), as well as interracial marriages and all the aspects of what once existed there would be summarily wiped out. It is indeed extreme to think- but it seems an inevitable future. It won't right now in your visible lifetime but you can observe the seeds of it, and because we probably won't be alive to see this extreme change it most likely doesn't bother most people.
Although my sentiments lie on the complete opposite of the political spectrum it's not to say whoever says one thing is wrong or right and surely they didn't mean that. Some people are strong conservationists like myself and not at all trying to accuse one race of being lesser. I just support separate ethnic and cultural groups because certain things would be lost if there was an Islamic majority (or any other non-"native" population) in most European countries speaking Arabic or Persian or whathaveyou, celebrating Eid al Fitr instead of Victory Day or Boxing Day which hold no importance to them over their own loved cultures. Just like how I'm living in a country that is different from my home I still don't take on the cultures and celebrations as my own (I suppose you could say I'm part of the problem).
But that's just my two-cents as to better state what this person was getting at without any hostilities and racial profiling.
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Well, I guess the niqab isn't enough to protect you from the peanut gallery... :/
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Spectators, people who don't live in the Muslim world--armchair philosophers/politicians, people like that.
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I agree. I'm against the niquaab, burqa, or hijab only in cases where a woman is FORCED to wear it. But if she is wearing it of her own choice and faith, then who am I to tell her that she shouldn't wear it?
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Also, if we are forcing the women to NOT wear those garments in public because we deem it inappropriate, how different are we from the people who DO force them to wear it?
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no difference, everyone must choose their path as not to disturb others
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I've always hated the burqa the Muslim women are forced to wear anyway, but I wouldn't go up to someone who was wearing it and rip it off their head. I'm more on the left wing side with this issue; if they want to wear it, because it makes them feel secure or some such reason, then they should be allowed to wear it, and vice-versa if they don't want to wear it, they shouldn't be condemned for thinking differently/having different beliefs/just wanting to be treated like an actual person and not a baby making factory
Also; U.S.A. should seriously just butt out of other countries' business and stop being the world's police
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Y'know, the way I see it, those women should be allowed to wear those garments ONLY if they truly wish to, for whatever their reasons may be.
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But now being serious, I don't agree with any of them :/ Women that still use the niqab in the West are free to use they aren't forced to wear it, ok, there are people and there are people but they aren't oppressed , tell me this: if a women has the right to reveal there body parts then why can't a women choose to cover theres?
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I think we all agree that a woman should be free to cover or show however much she wants (without causing many car accidents, of course).
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It is always easier to tell other people how to do things correctly. And it's so arrogant and pseudo-elitist from our "democratic western" nations to point at and judge other countries like Egypt, Tunisia etc. Same with the issue of the Burka/ Hijab.
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One can not argue for female empowerment and equality by dictating what is and is not right for them to wear. Telling a woman she may Not wear 'A' is the same as telling a woman she Must wear 'A'. Both sides are wrong, but for different reasons.
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Peace be to you,
"The western values of freedom, equality and emancipation should not be imposed to anyone. Instead these values should remain strong here amongst us and seduce other cultures to adopt them. If they want."
I can't agree more. that's really how things should be. religion or culture should not be forced on anyone. everyone is free to take what suits them and leave what doesn't suit them.
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Just: It's sad, how many people misunderstand your works!
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I liked that it sparked some debate here.
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I agree with you. I'm American and Islamophobia takes a different face here, but I think if they feel it is in the best interest of their spiritual self to cover up then it's not the government's business to interfere.
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I completely agree with you, religious freedom should mean you can't take away other people's symbols, even if you don't like their meaning.
uh.. awful redaction for me, sorry for that.
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erm is it really necessary to look down on others religious?
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