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Velica — The curious case of the niqab
Published: 2010-02-11 01:16:47 +0000 UTC; Views: 18315; Favourites: 101; Downloads: 871
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Description
All across Europe a strange phenomenon is occurring.Both the left and right wing strongly oppose the use of niqāb and the burqa by Muslim women. Months after the minaret ban in Switzerland commotion begun in France, UK, Germany and other European countries to ban the face enveloping garment.
However, and this is in my opinion the curious bit, the reasons behind this opposition are completely different between left and right wingers.
The right bases its argument on security and integration. This is, of course, a mask for the post-9/11 islamophobia and the result of a conservative bunch not liking to see people dressed differently. Maybe the next ban will be the Sikh turbans, then the tatoos, long hair and so on.
At the left the word of order is equality, female emancipation and fight against patriarchy.
From my description of things you can imagine I sit closer to the left than to the right. Yet, I can not agree with any sort of government-endorsed ban on clothing. I too disagree that women should cover themselves for fear of punishment, shame or any sort of oppressive force but it is up to them to initiate the struggle against it.
The western values of freedom, equality and emancipation should not be imposed to anyone. Instead these values should remain strong here amongst us and seduce other cultures to adopt them. If they want.
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Comments: 245
i have personally never met anyone who was forced into it, i have only met women who have struggled to wear it because their family or husbands often oppose it, but obedience to God comes first for them
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Thank you for your well thought-out answer.
There are things I think I should point out, though. First, it's not "perfectly okay" for a woman to walk around naked. The law prohibits it pretty much everywhere around the world, for obvious reasons. That was a totally unnecessary straw man argument.
I can understand your point as far as the hijab is concerned. The burqa, however, is not specifically mentioned in the Quran and in my opinion it would be very hard to plead that it's in any way protected by any widely accepted definition of Freedom of religion. It's just not. Otherwise you could justify pretty much anything in the name of tradition, including ritual genital mutilation.
I won't pretend that I know what's going on in the minds of muslim women. I'm sure that like any other group of people, they hold all kinds of different opinions and values. However, intentions are one thing, symbols and public perceptions are another. Right now, most people living in western democracies see the burqa as a symbol of oppression, a symbol of inequality, a tool to make sure that women stay subservient to men. Is that true? That's of course debatable, but it remains that for many people, the burqa is simply not acceptable. They feel that we've been there already in the middle ages, and that going back there would be a step backwards.
Western democracies should embrace human rights and cultural diversity, but they're under no obligation to completely forget their values and traditions in the process. Democracy can't be used to end democracy. If a symbol is seen as a threat to those values, these democracies have every right to put a ban on it or to restrict its usage. I'm sure you understand that, considering that Muslim countries have the same attitude towards symbols or attitudes that they deem unacceptable.
Ultimately, I don't think it really matters. The tiny minority of women who feel that they can't accept these restrictions and that their religious rules are more important than the laws of men are free to move to a country where they can live like that.
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but that's the thing...they are not a minority. I know plenty of women who wear the veil and some of them even happen to be english reverts to islam who have studied islam by themselves and feel the need to wear it...they have no male islamic influence in their life at all.
This is what the quran says “And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what must ordinarily appear therof;...."
basically we are told to cover everything except that which is necessary or needs to be uncovered...now here is where the difference is...some have interpreted it to mean that everything should be covered except the hands and face...and some people think its not necessary to keep the face uncovered and believe they only need their eyes to be shown so they can see where they are going. But even a lot of those scholars who say that it is permissible to keep the hands and face uncovered encourage women to wear the veil but they don't believe it is absolutely necessary. Moreover we also follow the way of the prophet (peace be upon him)and there are narrations of the women in the times of the prophet and they describe them to wear something similar to the veil.
its funny how i live in a muslim community...i interact with so many muslims, and so many of those women wear the veil and all of them wear it by choice. I know of the struggles they have faced from their families because their families have been against it. I have personally never come across a muslim who is forced to wear it...that is not to say it doesn't happen..it may do but it is rare from what i know.
The media has a way of twisting things to make it seem to the public they are trying to help people when in actual fact they are somehow pushing their own agendas...like the iraq war etc. Somebody comes along and says the veil has nothing to do with islam so people start believing it has no basis
there are plenty of videos of veiled women on youtube many of htem being reverts who have no cultural influence...they are explaining their choice in wanting to wear the veil. i can post you some links if you are interested in hearing their views?
it doesnt seem that many non-muslims are aware that sooo many muslim women wear the veil by choice they have been completely sucked in by the media and feel like they are doing women a favour by banning the veil when in actual fact so many will be oppressed by this...isnt it better to try and change the perception of the veil rather than to ban it all together?
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As I said, I'm not talking about intentions. I'm sure most of these women are sincere, and feel they have very good reasons for doing what they do. I think most people do. Ultimately though, intentions are not the only thing that matters when it comes to analyzing what makes us tick and why we chose to behave in a certain way. We're all rational beings to some extant, and we're also emotional beings, and we're creatures of habits, and we're products of our culture and traditions, and many many other things. It's never as simple as just saying that we do what we do by choice. I'm a Christian, I chose to be a Christian, but I'm fully aware that if I were born in New Dehli I would probably be a Hindu. Self determination is just one element among many others.
Let me give you another example. In my country, women didn't get the right to vote until 1971, which is something I'm terribly ashamed of. Anyway, at the time the referendum on women's suffrage was held, a majority of women in my country thought they didn't deserve that right, and would have refused it if they'd been asked. Obviously that was their choice, but it's self-evident that these women were heavily influenced by the values of the male-dominated society they had lived in for their entire life. More importantly, these women were wrong: more human rights are objectively better than less human rights, and more equality is better than less equality. Sometimes, even when you're since and have the best intentions, you're still wrong.
Of course I'm not claiming that the Muslim women we've been talking about are wrong. I'm just stating that sometimes what you think are individual choices are actually a mix of different influences.
Anyway, I'm straying far from my original point, which has nothing to do with that, and is very simple: western democracies have moral and traditional values of their own. If you intend to live there, you have to respect those values, and right now, wearing the niqab is usually not accepted in those countries. When I'm in Morocco, I don't wear shorts, after all, and I don't wear shoes when I'm in a mosque. The only thing these countries are asking is the same kind of cultural respect and courtesy. And if some people think that showing that kind of respect is unacceptable, they can choose to leave for a country where they won't have to make that kind of compromise. It's very simple.
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i was talking about Christian British reverts to Islam, we had one at our university (i bet your shocked thinking omg an oppressed muslim woman at univeristy 
I am a born muslim and wear the headscarf and i know the majority of the British public will assume my family has forced me into it but i was never even encouraged into wearing it...i didn't wear it until i began studying Islam by myself and felt the importance of it. And i am also one of those women who will not have the support of the family if i decided to wear the veil.
Certain muslim countries and other countries may bann things which are offensive to them and i agree with you that if the people can't live with those bann's they should leave the country. But the niqaab is not something which is offensive to any other religion. it is like the media has destroyed the image of something and portrayed it to mean oppression and abuse and now wants to ban it.
if the society thinks niqaab is something bad then surely so are knifes yet the law protects sikhs so they are allowed to carry their knifes for religious reasons. It seems that everyone else if religiously free to do what they please but only muslims are being targeted
anyways the point i initially wanted to make was to try and clear the misconception that niqaab = oppression and all veiled women are oppressed or forced into it. That certainly is not the case for the majority of women who wear the veil in the west...i can't speak for other countries but i can say that for sure when it comes to the west
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The niqab is clearly something that is thought of as offensive in many western democracies. It's not a matter of religion, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the media. Western democracies have secular values of their own, and you can't just ignore them or pretend that they don't exist, or claim that people are being manipulated. Let's not be naive here. These values (equality, human rights, secularism, liberalism, separation of Church and state, etc.) do exist, and ignoring them will only lead to cultural misunderstandings and conflicts.
And no, Muslims are not targeted. Almost nobody but the most radical members of the far right has anything against the headscarf. The niqab or any other kind of face-covering veil is quite obviously a different matter, and anyone claiming that it's a mandatory part of Islam is frankly delusional. If it were, it wouldn't be illegal in Tunisia and civil servants in Turkey would be allowed to wear it.
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what makes it so offensive? :s
the headscarf has been brought up as an issue as well along with the long dress that muslim women wear...which isn't very different from any long dress a lady will wear but apparently a muslim woman wearing it may be a hazard
now the non-muslims are teaching us about our own religion? the people that have banned it altogether hardly represent islam. infact almost all the muslim countries have leaders who are sellouts...they don't stand for anything...much like the leaders of the west
The majority of the muslim scholars have ruled the niqaab to be either obligatory...highly recommended or a praiseworthy action that you are rewarded for doing but not sinned if you do not do it.
this is the reason you get so many muslim women making the choice to wear niqaab...they can easily follow the opinion that its not sinful to make life easier for themselves since they are under no compulsion...but after having studied islam they believe it is necessary so they wear it. it's not an easy thing for them to do in this society but that is how important they consider it that they are ready for the abuse that comes along with it which they receive from ignorant non-muslims and muslims alike
i can still hook you up with some youtube videos of niqaabis so you may understand more but if you have made up your mind about the niqaab already then we will just have to agree to disagree...i just felt it necessary to clear the misconception and explain the views of the people who are right in the middle of the whole tugging in ur image
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I think you've made your point very clear and thanks to you, I think I have a better understanding of the situation. Thank you for that.
Unfortunately, I think you're still not seeing the larger perspective. You've thrown stones at "the media", muslim leaders, leaders of the west, ignorant people of all creeds and nations, and, well, me, accusing all of these of failing to understand your point of view. Maybe there's a reason all these people don't agree with you, and maybe it's not just because they're mean and ignorant. Maybe they have a point. Food for thoughts.
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Yeah, and those people do... but nothing happens! I bet you that you wouldn't say that if it was YOUR rights! If you aren't listened to.. how are you supposed to do anything about it?
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Considering you know nothing about me, it would probably be better if you didn't make any assumptions about me.
And the tiny minority of women who have voiced their opinions have in fact been listened to. Interestingly enough, this is what this deviation is all about.
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I can tell a lot by a person's words. Anyone can.
Really? Yeah... if that was true, French Muslim Women wouldn't still be rioting for their rights.
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They have been listened to, that doesn't mean that every single thing they have asked for has been provided. Democracy takes time, dedication and patience. And yes, sometimes compromises have to be made.
Not to mention that French Muslim Women are not rioting for their rights, actually. That's a gross misrepresentation of facts.
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You are horribly mistaken
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Well, yes, maybe I am. I'm perfectly willing to change my mind about it. In what way am I mistaken?
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In that you're totally wrong. You made it seem that these women are not trying to better themselves 100%. To me that seems sexist and very rude.
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I admire your energy and your zeal, but really, it's not every day someone genuinely offers you the opportunity to change their mind. When that happens, you don't reply "you're totally wrong", because that's just incredibly short-sighted and a waste of time for everyone.
You obviously have very strong convictions but you don't seem to be able or willing to build a solid rational argument in favor of them. That's a shame, because I think that critical thinking and skepticism are useful skills in any situation. I'll just assume that your youth is responsible for your unbridled enthusiasm and wish you the best.
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I don't provide a rational argument? Why don't you for a change.
Here's my 'rational argument':
"We live in a country which is supposed to defend human rights, and to practise one's religion is a human right," said Betayeba Hayet, one of the French protesters.
this has been GOING ON FOR MORE THAN 4 YEARS***... What part of the Women are trying to fight for their rights don't you understand? They aren't just 'omg like this sucks tee hee!' There's PROTESTING
BUT NO ONE'S LISTENING TO THEM.
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Thank you for elaborating on your point of view. Hearing what you actually think is interesting.
Obviously the problem is not that no one's listening to these women. Many people are listening, and many people are disagreeing with them. In a democracy, sometimes you manage to convince the majority that rules should change, and sometimes you don't. There is absolutely no obligation to automatically do everything that every minority group demands. Freedom of religion, like any other freedom, must be balanced with other human rights and democratic principles.
Right now the general feeling in France, which is a very secular society, is that some religious and semi-religious traditions are a threat to the separation of Church and State, and are thus unacceptable. While my mind is not made up and I understand where the women you're talking about are coming from, I think the French raise a pertinent point as well, one that can't be so easily swept aside.
Ultimately, right now, in some western democracies, allowing the burqa and the niqab is seen as a bigger threat to democracy than banning them. You may regret it but it's not something that is likely to change instantly just because a tiny minority is demanding it. As I've said, those things take time.
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If you where part of a religion where you couldn't wear a certain pant, but everybody tells you that you can't wear that... how would you feel? This is a religious obligation.. like a nun wearing a habit and a orthodox jew covering their hair... but if it's Muslims.. OH NOOOOO!
You think that Muslim women are a minority? You wont be saying that as the Muslim religion grows and as the Muslim women population gets bigger. It's the minorities that people need to care about, not just the big guys. It's like Democrats and Republicans. Republicans want help for all the 'big' guys. They don't care about the smaller companies! Who cares right?
I think that you need to put yourself in our situation. The religious veil has been around A LOT longer than you have!
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If I were part of a religion where I couldn't wear a certain pant, I would probably have to rethink my life in a major way.
Yes, modesty is a religious obligation in Islam, and some Muslim women chose to follow that obligation by wearing a scarf. I have absolutely no problem with that. In fact, very few people have any problem with that. With the notable exceptions of French schools and public servants in some western countries, no one seems to have any problem with Muslim women wearing the hijab. Really, it's mostly a non-issue.
What we're talking about here is the niqab, though, and anyone pretending that the niqab is a strict religious obligation is simply delusional. Many people in western countries find the niqab highly offensive, they think it's a symbol of gender segregation, of male domination, something that drags society backwards and is potentially harmful. Whether they're wrong or right, those are the dominant values right now in certain countries.
Anyone is of course free to disagree with that, but society as a whole can't bend backwards to accommodate every cultural particularity. If we want to live together, we're going to have to make compromises. People who don't want to make compromises are free to leave. I don't wear shorts when I go to Morocco, I don't wear shoes when I enter a mosque. I expect the same kind of courtesy from anyone.
I expect it, and I usually get it. There are less than 200.000 Muslim women in my country. Most of them don't bother with the hijab, which is their right, some of them do, which is also their right. Almost none of them wear the niqab. I believe we can all live together. Do you?
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French government is trying to get rid of BOTH hijab and niqab.
Well... I think that you should shave of all your hair and not wear any cloths... You can start a new trend.
And btw, Niqab is just the same and hijab... it's not a sign of 'male dominance'. I couldn't let a man walk all over me if I tried!
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I'm sure you wouldn't, and I'm sure your intentions are above reproach. It doesn't change a thing, though: in the west, the niqab is widely seen as a symbol of male dominance. Whether you agree or disagree, it just is. Ignoring it won't do anyone any good.
Anyway, thank you for the interesting conversation. Peace be upon you.
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You just contradicted yourself! You say "Ignoring it won't do anyone any good." yet you say "Tiny minorities shouldn't change the way people live"
Well... why don't you stop ignoring the voices of the french Muslim Women. Hell, I live in the 'west' and I'm still seen as the 'spunky loud-mouth'. And I'm proud of it!
Have fun with your twisted and contradictory ways.
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Peace be upon you.
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Pois, também, igualdade em quê? Nos direitos não é de certeza, se fosse cada um teria direito a ser diferente e a ter os seus valores culturais. Enfim, dizemos mal do outro mas somos iguais ou piores... Se nós cá na nossa Europa ocidental fossemos tão bons, o resto do mundo seguia-nos naturalmente.
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I just wish the 12th Imam would just crawl out of his well and make the rivers run with the blood of the infidel already sheesh.
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he is a shia....muslim extremist ( a sect in islam)
SO dont thingy that bobby represents all muslims...
for me he is an ignorant!
About your western values...No matter what..whether we
were conservative muslims or Seculars will never be adopted
as we are controlled by SECULAR tyrants...who crushes down
anyones who speaks against them...including the muslim scholars!
I prefer a conservative muslim society...you can keep your way of living but without IMPOSING it on us!
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What do you mean secular tyrants?
Apart from this niqab/burqa ban, which many people in the west are speaking against, I fail to see how secularism has been a tyrany. Secularism makes sure religious freedom exists and that no religion imposes its dogmas on anyone who doesnt want them.
Now if some superstitious old men demands that I grow a beard or that my wife and sister covers her face or else I will go to prison or, worst, get beheaded, that is true tyrany.
Religion should be a personal ritual not an imposition.
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lol....Your information about islam is about zero!
And I when I said secular tyrants I meant that they
werent using islamic laws in the country..infact far
away!
Brother in humanity...Please please open your mind
ask muslims and not people who claim to know islam!
There is no verse in the quran that say kill all infidel
civillians and rape their women..hijab is not imposed on women
far from it believe me!
In islam its up to you if you want to pray or not..but if you dont
pray you will recieve punishment from god in this life or in the other one!
If women dont want to wear hijab ok thats fine...aslong as she wears modest clothes and not something nude!
Even with the beard..some muslim scholars said that its something voluntary ALSO THE BURQA IS VOLUNTARY (you have 2 version of hejab,the common one which shows the face and the other one that
covers the face too...its up to the woman to choose)
As I was saying some scholars said its voluntary to have a beard or not..others said you have to BUT they will not aim an ak47
on your head and till you you have 10 seconds to get a beard starting from now!
The middle east is actually SECULAR and if you dont believe me
why dont you go to lebanon or Egypt or syria or any of the gulf countries...well except Saudi arabia as they are a bit extreme (but not as osama bin laden lol).
Btw the that guy talking about the 12th imam thing he adds sunna muslims (which makes more than 80 percent of the muslim population) on the infidel list too! So it looks like me and you
will be in the same whoe for a while!
I can see that your head is full of propaganda and this is sad!
And if you dont know it Saudi Arabia which is seen as the extreme
muslim country out of all (although I see it as not a real muslim country) in the past did executions with fire arms but they started using beheading as its known that if you were beheaded
by an expert who is well trained you will not feel the pain and
it wil be swift....dont look at me look at wikipedia its all mentioned there!
And sorry for saying that but the part your sister doesnt cover her head and so you get sent to jail iS LUDICROUS!!
SERIOUSLY I DONT KNOW SHOULD I LAUGH FROM HEARING THIS OR CRY IN PAIN AND AGONY BECAUSE PEOPLE OUT THERE THINK THAT THIS IS ISLAM!
Al qaeda and taliban I see them as the islamic version of KKK!
the KKK killed lots of black people! does that mean that christians love killing black people and burning them? no!
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You are over-confident in your ability to draw conclusions about a person based on a few sentences. Hence, you were wrong.
I have Muslim friends, one of them a very close one. I lived for 4 years in a city with a large Muslim community and I have interacted many times with them, enough to be able to distinguish propaganda from reality.
What I referred to, when I mentioned beards and niqabs, was the non-secular regimes of Saudi Arabia and Iran. You, and most Muslims, would agree that those are religious dictatorships. What I was underlining was the difference between that form of regime and the secular governments of Europe, where religious freedom exists. This because you mentioned some form of "secular tyrany" and would rather prefer a "conservative" society that, presumably, tells people how to behave and how to dress.
In fact, you only need to read the original caption for this deviation to understand my opinion on islamophobic propaganda. On the other hand bobbymono's comment was sarcastic. You just happened to take it literally.
So before being so quick on the trigger of accusations make sure to do a "background check" of some sort.
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Actually there are shia muslims who believe in what he says!
and I thought he was one of them!
Iran is a shia country and so therefore I dont see it as
Islamic as there is a big difference between sunna and shia
muslims!
In a conservative islamic country (Saudi Arabia is extreme)
there would be education for both genders..women can drive cars
like men..they can go to work...with men but its better to stay
at home and rise the kids (UP TO HER),Children will be taught about hijab and encouraged to wear hijab! NOT FORCED! Its up to
them!
Its sad that there is some families force their girls to wear hijab and therefore the girl doesnt love it or understand it
as she was forced to wear it!
Alcohol will be banned...its a big shock for the west as you guys
cannot live without it but even arab christians live fine without it!
Yes islam tells us how to behave! To treat the muslim and the non muslim the way they treat me...to smile when I see them and tell them salamo 3alaikom (I think you know what that means as you claim you had a long experience with the muslim community)
Even before Islam women in the arabian peninsula used to wear modestly unless they were slaves or dancers who were used to
entertain the men (note thats before Islam).
Did you know that in Islam the husband has no say what so ever on his wifes money? in other words she has control over her money and he has no right to take it from her unless he has her permission!
And I still think you have some propaganda in your head....getting arrested because your sister is not wearing hijab LOL!
Trust me why should I lie to you! If what you were saying about us is right i would have made a comment like DEATH TO YOU INFIDEL AND TO ALL WOMEN NOT WEARING HIJAB MUAHHAHAHAHAHAAHAH!!!!
ok that was not funny!
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I had heard of all these things before. I have no particular quarrel with Islam.
I struggle to understand religion at all (I'm an atheist).
Thus, I am happy to live in a part of the world that respects all religions but imposes (or educates) none. If you want to dress modestly you can, if you want to dress differently you can. Its your choice.
As for the propaganda on women forced to wear the hijab, well, as I said before I was referring to theocratic (non-secular) regimes of Iran, Saudi and the Taliban rule. I'm not saying they represent Islam but they do represent what theocratic dictatorship is!
Europe has had its share of religious fanaticism, crusades, holy inquisition and what not. I'm happy we moved past that!
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But then you faced decadence....The human became an asset!
Women are used in advertisements for their body as a tool
to attract potential clients...pornography spreading like
a plague...Morals falling down!
Actually there is some of the old faaticism left in the west!
many Us soldiers see their mission their as a CRUSADE against
evil again!
PROVING THE EXISTENCE OF ALLAH (SWT)TO AN ATHEIST
by Dr. Zakir Naik
CONGRATULATING AN ATHEIST
Normally, when I meet an atheist, the first thing I like to do is to congratulate him and say, " My special congratulations to you", because most of the people who believe in God are doing blind belief - he is a Christian, because his father is a Christian; he is a Hindu, because his father is a Hindu; the majority of the people in the world are blindly following the religion of their fathers. An atheist, on the other hand, even though he may belong to a religious family, uses his intellect to deny the existence of God; what ever concept or qualities of God he may have learnt in his religion may not seem to be logical to him.
My Muslim brothers may question me, "Zakir, why are you congratulating an atheist?" The reason that I am congratulating an atheist is because he agrees with the first part of the Shahada i.e. the Islamic Creed, ‘La ilaaha’ - meaning ‘there is no God’. So half my job is already done; now the only part left is ‘il lallah’ i.e. ‘BUT ALLAH’ which I shall do Insha Allah. With others (who are not atheists) I have to first remove from their minds the wrong concept of God they may have and then put the correct concept of one true God.
LOGICAL CONCEPT OF GOD
My first question to the atheist will be: "What is the definition of God?" For a person to say there is no God, he should know what is the meaning of God. If I hold a book and say that ‘this is a pen’, for the opposite person to say, ‘it is not a pen’, he should know what is the definition of a pen, even if he does not know nor is able to recognise or identify the object I am holding in my hand. For him to say this is not a pen, he should at least know what a pen means. Similarly for an atheist to say ‘there is no God’, he should at least know the concept of God. His concept of God would be derived from the surroundings in which he lives. The god that a large number of people worship has got human qualities - therefore he does not believe in such a god. Similarly a Muslim too does not and should not believe in such false gods.
If a non-Muslim believes that Islam is a merciless religion with something to do with terrorism; a religion which does not give rights to women; a religion which contradicts science; in his limited sense that non-Muslim is correct to reject such Islam. The problem is he has a wrong picture of Islam. Even I reject such a false picture of Islam, but at the same time, it becomes my duty as a Muslim to present the correct picture of Islam to that non-Muslim i.e. Islam is a merciful religion, it gives equal rights to the women, it is not incompatible with logic, reason and science; if I present the correct facts about Islam, that non-Muslim may Inshallah accept Islam.
Similarly the atheist rejects the false gods and the duty of every Muslim is to present the correct concept of God which he shall Insha Allah not refuse.
(You may refer to my article, ‘Concept of God in Islam’, for more details)
QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE
The methods of proving the existence of God with usage of the material provided in the ‘Concept of God in Islam’ to an atheist may satisfy some but not all.
Many atheists demand a scientific proof for the existence of God. I agree that today is the age of science and technology. Let us use scientific knowledge to kill two birds with one stone, i.e. to prove the existence of God and simultaneously prove that the Qur’an is a revelation of God.
If a new object or a machine, which no one in the world has ever seen or heard of before, is shown to an atheist or any person and then a question is asked, " Who is the first person who will be able to provide details of the mechanism of this unknown object? After little bit of thinking, he will reply, ‘the creator of that object.’ Some may say ‘the producer’ while others may say ‘the manufacturer.’ What ever answer the person gives, keep it in your mind, the answer will always be either the creator, the producer, the manufacturer or some what of the same meaning, i.e. the person who has made it or created it. Don’t grapple with words, whatever answer he gives, the meaning will be same, therefore accept it.
SCIENTIFIC FACTS MENTIONED IN THE QUR’AN: for details on this subject please refer to my book, ‘THE QUR’AN AND MODERN SCIENCE – COMPATIBLE OR INCOMPATIBLE?
THEORY OF PROBABILITY
In mathematics there is a theory known as ‘Theory of Probability’. If you have two options, out of which one is right, and one is wrong, the chances that you will chose the right one is half, i.e. one out of the two will be correct. You have 50% chances of being correct. Similarly if you toss a coin the chances that your guess will be correct is 50% (1 out of 2) i.e. 1/2. If you toss a coin the second time, the chances that you will be correct in the second toss is again 50% i.e. half. But the chances that you will be correct in both the tosses is half multiplied by half (1/2 x 1/2) which is equal to 1/4 i.e. 50% of 50% which is equal to 25%. If you toss a coin the third time, chances that you will be correct all three times is (1/2 x 1/2 x 1/2) that is 1/8 or 50% of 50% of 50% that is 12½%.
A dice has got six sides. If you throw a dice and guess any number between 1 to 6, the chances that your guess will be correct is 1/6. If you throw the dice the second time, the chances that your guess will be correct in both the throws is (1/6 x 1/6) which is equal to 1/36. If you throw the dice the third time, the chances that all your three guesses are correct is (1/6 x 1/6 x 1/6) is equal to 1/216 that is less than 0.5 %.
Let us apply this theory of probability to the Qur’an, and assume that a person has guessed all the information that is mentioned in the Qur’an which was unknown at that time. Let us discuss the probability of all the guesses being simultaneously correct.
At the time when the Qur’an was revealed, people thought the world was flat, there are several other options for the shape of the earth. It could be triangular, it could be quadrangular, pentagonal, hexagonal, heptagonal, octagonal, spherical, etc. Lets assume there are about 30 different options for the shape of the earth. The Qur’an rightly says it is spherical, if it was a guess the chances of the guess being correct is 1/30.
The light of the moon can be its own light or a reflected light. The Qur’an rightly says it is a reflected light. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/2 and the probability that both the guesses i.e the earth is spherical and the light of the moon is reflected light is 1/30 x 1/2 = 1/60.
Further, the Qur’an also mentions every living thing is made of water. Every living thing can be made up of either wood, stone, copper, aluminum, steel, silver, gold, oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, oil, water, cement, concrete, etc. The options are say about 10,000. The Qur’an rightly says that everything is made up of water. If it is a guess, the chances that it will be correct is 1/10,000 and the probability of all the three guesses i.e. the earth is spherical, light of moon is reflected light and everything is created from water being correct is 1/30 x 1/2 x 1/10,000 = 1/60,000 which is equal to about .0017%.
The Qur’an speaks about hundreds of things that were not known to men at the time of its revelation. Only in three options the result is .0017%. I leave it upto you, to work out the probability if all the hundreds of the unknown facts were guesses, the chances of all of them being correct guesses simultaneously and there being not a single wrong guess. It is beyond human capacity to make all correct guesses without a single mistake, which itself is sufficient to prove to a logical person that the origin of the Qur’an is Divine.
CREATOR IS THE AUTHOR OF THE QUR’AN
The only logical answer to the question as to who could have mentioned all these scientific facts 1400 years ago before they were discovered, is exactly the same answer initially given by the atheist or any person, to the question who will be the first person who will be able to tell the mechanism of the unknown object. It is the ‘CREATOR’, the producer, the Manufacturer of the whole universe and its contents. In the English language He is ‘God’, or more appropriate in the Arabic language, ‘ALLAH’.
QUR’AN IS A BOOK OF SIGNS AND NOT SCIENCE
Let me remind you that the Qur’an is not a book of Science, ‘S-C-I-E-N-C-E’ but a book of Signs ‘S-I-G-N-S’ i.e. a book of ayaats. The Qur’an contains more than 6,000 ayaats, i.e. ‘signs’, out of which more than a thousand speak about Science. I am not trying to prove that the Qur’an is the word of God using scientific knowledge as a yard stick because any yardstick is supposed to be more superior than what is being checked or verified. For us Muslims the Qur’an is the Furqan i.e. criteria to judge right from wrong and the ultimate yardstick which is more superior to scientific knowledge.
But for an educated man who is an atheist, scientific knowledge is the ultimate test which he believes in. We do know that science many a times takes ‘U’ turns, therefore I have restricted the examples only to scientific facts which have sufficient proof and evidence and not scientific theories based on assumptions. Using the ultimate yardstick of the atheist, I am trying to prove to him that the Qur’an is the word of God and it contains the scientific knowledge which is his yardstick which was discovered recently, while the Qur’an was revealed 1400 year ago. At the end of the discussion, we both come to the same conclusion that God though superior to science, is not incompatible with it.
SCIENCE IS ELIMINATING MODELS OF GOD BUT NOT GOD
Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ‘g’ that is fake god) but God (with a capital ‘G’).
Surah Fussilat:
"Soon We will show them our signs in the (farthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?"
[Al-Quran 41:53]
Reference: [link]
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Freedom works both ways. Unfortunately you have women in the west who choose to be used as objects (be it for advertisement or pornography) and men who profit from their choice. In my opinion, this is bad to women's dignity, but so is covering them with a burqa or a niqab. But this is freedom, women can choose to cover up or show off.
On the other hand the West is home of the feminist movement and their brave struggle for civil rights. Emancipation of women has led to their right to vote (universal suffrage) and demand equal rights in education and health, that is, not being treated as second class citizens. Nowadays, most western nations have more women studying in Universities than men and more and more women are taking the double task of being professionals and taking care of their family. Just like men.
I am very proud of western women.
As for the propagandist attempt to re-convert me back into a religion, I will pass. I did not try to prove you wrong or "convert" you to atheism so it would be polite if you didn't try the opposite on me.
Take care.
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Well actually I am not doing so...I am just showing you
something I found interesting a few days ago!
and If my aim is to convert you we wont have a discussion
of this sort!
Islam has given the woman her rights...its just that when we started to become backward(if u checked history u will find
that we became history when we took a different path than islam..ironic isnt it?) ignorance started to pop in!
and then you got all the patriarchy thing!
In Islam Yes men and women ARE NOT equal thats because EVERYONE
has a different purpose in life...YES Woman can IF SHE wants to
study in university and work but her main mission should be raising the kids..In Islam its the man who has to handle all the
expenses but if his wife wants to help him financially thats fine!
But there are things that take us into different paths! Like gays
and lesbians and other disgusting lifestyles appearing!
Islam deals with it harshly(if you became gay due to past experience like getting molested then you should see a physciatrist but if u want to be a gay for the sake of being
gay then you should watch out!)
I agree with that!
In france you are not allowed to show what so ever signs of your religion in other words girls are not allowed to wear hejab!
and france is a secular country! When a muslim country then
bans women to wear bikini even if they are western then I see
its justified!
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Why is homosexuality disgusting to you? I have several gay and lesbian friends who are perfectly healthy, intelligent and competent people. What other lifestyles do you consider disgusting? And what do you mean gay people should watch out? Is that a threat? Do you go around beating up homosexuals? I though Islam taught people not to judge...
The decision to ban burqa and niqab in France, Belgium and most recently in Spain is, as far as I'm concerned, wrong! The point is that Europe should not start banning things over the risk of becoming an oppressive regime like Iran or Saudi Arabia. That should not be our model.
I say, live and let live. If you don't like the liberal tolerant system of the west then simply avoid it. I would not raise my family in Saudi Arabia either. If you are happier in a more conservative country, thats perfectly fine! As long as everyone is happy and no one is deprived from basic rights.
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Number 1.Its not only the burqa its also the hejab they are banning which even the most moderate muslim woman wears.
2.Its not us beating them....Its execution!Civillans in Islam
cannot put the law by their own hands..the leader does!
Yes I see them as a threat even if they are rational and
I know that they are like us....intellegent and etc....
but there way of life is not allowed......Even a thief
is intellegent and is a normal human being...being normal
is no justification....Their way of life is immoral and
disgusting....You might think I am sitting right now
somewhere in a cave typing this but no...I am going to
university AMERICAN university and study business administration!
lets put personal life aside.....I c that even freedom has limits!
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The hijab has only been banned in French schools (not that I agree with this). Still, in public life here is no ban on the hijab.
I can't even begin to comment on such backwards thought. You could be the chancellor of your University, but your opinion on homosexuality is not welcome in any free society. Comparing homosexuals with thieves? Execution? What sets you apart from the KKK or any idiotic US religious fanatic?
I think our conversation is over.
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I was actually researching about it and asking why!
I do not simply nod my head for everything I hear!
I see...I read....I think!
I always questioned my religion and looked for answers..
I questioned the jews I question the christians I questioned
the muslims.
Then if our conversation is over remember that you are the
one who decided to end it and not me....It might be over here
but outside there..its not over.....its not over yet!
PS:I thought that you being an atheist is backward too!but I didnt end the discussion!
Dont reply because I will simply delete it...I cant believe I
wasted my time with someone that has no understanding of patience
or how to deal with people with different opinions!
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Up and down, in the Western world style of agreement.
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eu antes de ler a descrição até pensei q fosse daquela notícia parvinha do homem q casou com uma mulher lá pa esses lados e foi enganado.. andou a ver fotos da irmã, q era bem bonita ao q parece,e qd tirou a burka à noiva,quis devolvê-la.. tanto quis que quer, e até quer indemnização --''
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Haha... ontem quando mostrei este desenho a uma amiga ela contou-me essa historia.
Ha que ver sempre a mercadoria!
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We should just drop more bombs on those filthy brown people. God bless America.
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If I were President I'd carry the nuclear launch button on me on a necklace at all times. Then if some bitch tries to front, like try to charge me for a soda refill, all I have to do is waggle my finger over it and go "WHAT? WHAT! YOU WANT SOME? HUH?"
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