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XxDiaLinnxX In reply to superbatprime [2012-12-25 23:20:01 +0000 UTC]

ffff, typos suck. Thanks, I've been meaning to change that but forgot.

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XxDiaLinnxX In reply to LightPony [2012-12-11 19:25:14 +0000 UTC]

Seems to me like people either will not understand because they use the wrong logic, their way of thinking is too black and white about it or they are not comfortable enough to accept it :c

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LightPony In reply to XxDiaLinnxX [2012-12-14 11:08:50 +0000 UTC]

Those are some of the reasons.

But I think the main reason is to try to get additional ammo: try to paint something bad, without considering all the changes and things that happened.

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XxDiaLinnxX In reply to BlameThe1st [2012-12-11 03:23:40 +0000 UTC]

LOL, I've seen that cartoon lol

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BlameThe1st In reply to XxDiaLinnxX [2012-12-11 05:04:01 +0000 UTC]

Yeah. TektonTV is the best. A breath of fresh air from the likes of NonStampCollector and DarkMatter2545.

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XxDiaLinnxX In reply to BlameThe1st [2012-12-11 05:44:19 +0000 UTC]

Been keeping tabs on Holding's videos for quite a while. Never bothered to watch NSC or DM2545 after maybe a couple of their videos. Honestly, TektonTV's is far more humorous as well as stimulating lol

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BlameThe1st In reply to XxDiaLinnxX [2012-12-18 00:50:02 +0000 UTC]

Exactly! He's entertaining and educational.

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gdpr-19335497 In reply to XxDiaLinnxX [2012-12-12 19:42:52 +0000 UTC]

I personally take TektonTV with a grain of salt. He did write a very inflammatory book about my denomination, after all. And he rarely links to the videos he criticizes.

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XxDiaLinnxX In reply to JediSenshi [2012-12-10 01:09:07 +0000 UTC]

Didn't bother reading the blog, by chance?

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XxDiaLinnxX In reply to Pencilartguy [2012-12-11 19:26:03 +0000 UTC]

Right. It gets old REALLY fast, huh lol

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Pencilartguy In reply to XxDiaLinnxX [2012-12-11 23:24:34 +0000 UTC]

Yeah it does. If we cannot use the Bible, then why should they?

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XxDiaLinnxX In reply to Pencilartguy [2012-12-12 01:04:34 +0000 UTC]

Too many self-defeating tactics, and that's one of them.

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RoninDeVamasArt In reply to Pencilartguy [2012-12-09 21:19:13 +0000 UTC]

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Pencilartguy In reply to RoninDeVamasArt [2012-12-11 23:21:21 +0000 UTC]

Thanks you.

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Xiao-Fury In reply to Berserkeroo [2012-12-09 05:06:31 +0000 UTC]

If the word of God was written by man alone, then why one earth would man write a book that exposes all of His sins and even reveal the way to salvation? Sounds to me that you just want to hold on to something that God wants you to do away with. God's word convicts your soul, and you probably can't take it.

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Berserkeroo In reply to Xiao-Fury [2012-12-09 08:57:31 +0000 UTC]

Exposing your sins isn't even that big a deal. Everyone isn't perfect and anyone who is too arrogant to say otherwise is a moron. There are various reasons as to why someone could/would put their sins in a book for all to see. To have some form of self repentance to ease their conscience, to show people they aren't alone as to gather a fellowship, to gain supporters in hopes of making a functioning group, etc. If the bible really was the word of god, then humanity has had too much sway in its interpretation in order to for it to work in todays society.

Your salvation can't even be proven. You gain something so "great" when you die. You can't come back to prove or disprove it. You go to a place where you're either eternally happy or eternally damned? Really?! For a deity meant to be so loving, it's messed up on his end to turn a blind eye towards his "children" when they aren't gullible enough to believe in fictitious tales and a man who is meant to die on a cross so that you don't suffer this fate. A man who claimed to be the son of god and did nothing wrong goes to die in a horrid way because god threw a temper tantrum because he couldn't simply forgive the sins of things he created. And the all-knowing god didn't see this coming when he decided to give them free will? Way to teach a lesson god. Sin for your life or you get crucified! Your heaven isn't even that great. You either live there, knowing your relatives didn't make it and are burning in hell as we speak or your memory on earth is wiped so you can't remember those you loved and they're still burning, all so you can eternally worship some deity that made unreasonable conditions to gain entrance into this "paradise". Streets of gold? What use is money in heaven! Milk and honey as food? What's the point of food when you are never to go hungry in heaven. Aren't you guys supposed to be spirits or angels in heaven or something. You should have no desire to eat!

I don't give care about your god any longer. I've done enough of my research to come to a conclusion that the book is contradictory, full of more hate than love, and that your god is doing the very things that he doesn't want you to do - almost committing all of the seven deadly sins. He has shown wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, and envy. Your god is a hypocrite and a liar. If he does exist than he isn't a benevolent, omniscient, omnipresent, or omnipotent god. What god sits back in a suffering world and does nothing? If he's everywhere, why doesn't he stop someone from being murdered. If he was all loving, why doesn't he care enough about the victim to stop the murderer. If he's all powerful, then it shouldn't take more than a blink of an eye to stop it. If he's all knowing, he would know it's going to happen and divert the disaster. Either he's all of these things and doesn't care or he's not as great as you make him out to be. For a god that is supposed to be as awesome as the Christian community tries to make him out to be, he isn't living up to expectations. A corrupt religion for a corrupt god. Your convictions are nothing more than bigotry and hate that can be justified by the sheer numbers of ignorant human being that follow the paths of their forefathers just because they weren't given the option to believe in anything else.

Your god has more that it needs to improve on than me. I have never wiped out an entire people, spread a plague across a continent, let millions of children suffer and die before the age of five, let rapists rape, let a religion be a reason to treat other human being badly because they don't follow my ways, let people like Kony or Hitler walk the face of the planet (or if I did, not take actions to have them help people instead of hurt them), cause wars on a global scale, cause natural disasters. Seriously, I could keep going with the things wrong your god has done in comparison towards not living up to unreasonable deeds by a deity that doesn't even exist. You can take your self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitude and accusation as save it for your brethren who go against your religion as is. Fix your own religion before trying to convert someone to a broken religion.

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LightPony In reply to Berserkeroo [2012-12-10 15:54:44 +0000 UTC]

I don't want to intrude... but there are some things you said that are clearly mistaken. The reason of that is that you don't understand God justice. I was kind of avoiding in getting in another of those discussions, but you made a lot of points that need to be explained.

If you want, I may tell you more about the proof that shows the bible is true. But I will refrain to do so unless you specific request me. I am more interested in explaining your issues with the bible.

“God turned a blind eye for us, because he condemns us to hell.”

God didn't turn a blind eye to anyone. In fact it's the opposite: those who don't go to heaven are those who turned their backs to God. Using a real life example, when you are invited to live on a house it’s expected that you will follow its rules. If I invited you for my home, I wouldn’t like to see you stealing things or beating on my brothers. If you don’t agree with them, why should you be allowed inside of it?

Now you will say: ‘I have no problem in not getting inside of heaven, but why I must go to hell?’ Let’s keep the example of the house: heaven means ‘inside’ and hell is ‘outside’. That explains everything: you aren’t being cast in hell… you are simply not allowed inside of heaven. And if you aren’t inside the house, you must be outside, correct?

At last you will say: ‘Right… but you are forgetting its AN INFERNO OUT OF THERE.’ Let me explain that the bible uses symbolism: things like ‘fire’ are used to symbolize suffering. That means there is suffering outside of the house. And why is that? It’s because our souls needs God’s light to be happy.

You will probably be asking yourself: ‘What?’ It’s simple: remember when God created the world? He blessed it. We are living in a blessed world, a world which carries a bit of his light. In heaven, there will be only his light. And in hell, there won’t be any more light. He will close the door and the light won’t leave there anymore. This is why hell is a place of suffering.

‘Couldn’t he then put a lamppost of his ‘presence’ outside of it?’ you could ask. And yes, he could. He can do anything. However, remember that hell is where those who don’t want to walk with him choose to be. Would you walk with people who don’t want your presence?

This is why hell is fair: it’s not a prison where you are punished. It’s simply what remains when you take God out of your life.

“Jesus sacrifice wasn’t fair.”

Jesus sacrifice was fair. Jesus knew about what his fate was and he accepted it. He died to save humans from the sins of the whole humanity. And then he went straight to heaven, to live with his father.

You will say: ‘I don’t believe in heaven.’ But if you believe that Jesus sacrifice was God’s will, then you have to accept that Jesus also knew about it beforehand. If that is true, then why do you put the blame on God? God gave him a mission... and he accepted it.

Now you will ask: ‘Then why send Jesus to die, if he could forgive the sins?’ I will explain it to you on my next point.

“Why doesn’t God simply forgive all the sins?”

You see, it’s a misconception that God is only love. God is perfect… and a perfect being isn’t just love. It’s also about mercy, holiness and justice. A perfect being issues fair judgments upon his creation. Can you imagine a world where everything is forgiven without merit? It would be a world where everyone can kill and steal as much as they want without repercussions.

God is not a doormat. God ensures that all the sins are punished. Of course God also ensures that the sins can be forgiven. However, you have to search for repentance in order to find it.

This is where Jesus’ sacrifice enters: remember that the wage of sin is death? First let me explain this phrase: this death means ‘spiritual death’. With this known, when Jesus died he took the burden of all the sins. God fulfilled his need of justice alongside his need of giving mercy: now he can take us under his wing… as long as we wish to walk alongside him.

‘Why he couldn’t do that before?’ you may ask. That is because he is holy: he cannot turn a blind eye to the things we do wrong. But with our debts paid we are exempt from his justice. Now we just need to acknowledge that our debt was paid and wish to be with him.

“I don’t think God’s judgment is fair.”

Why do you think so? First, I already explained that hell is not a prison: it’s just a consequence. When God warns people about hell, it’s a warning not a threat. It's like warning your son: 'Don't touch the fire. You will get burned.'

But let’s consider that hell is a prison… and that God is the most lenient judge on Earth. He will keep you in prison for just a minute each time you broke one of his laws. Now imagine him counting each time you broke them… in your entire life. Mind you, he sees sins from the heart: that means you don't need to act on them in order for them to be counted. Now imagine that he will also count the times you repeated those offenses while in this prison. Would you ever pay your entire sentence?

Let me give you another quick example: imagine that the police are now omniscient, and they will fine each family who ever littered, each family who ever took a preferential car spot or forgot to use a seatbelt. How much money would people own to them? And could you say that this isn’t fair?

God is fair. We are subject to the laws of our country… just like we are subject to the laws of God. There is no blame in God for this.

“How could God not known the consequences of free will?”

God knew about the consequences of free will. Just like you know about the consequences of breaking the law. Why would someone break the law if they know the consequences? Because they think that what they can achieve is better than the risks they receive.

‘Then why give us free will, if he will punish us if we falter?’ you could ask. Let me ask you: would you rather lose your ability to choose just to avoid punishment?

Let’s suppose you were imprisoned for a crime you committed. Would you accept to be lobotomized in order to be released immediately? I don't think so.

He gave us free will because that is the greatest gift you can give to someone: that doesn’t mean that he has to accept everything we do. When he made us, he wished us to be more like him; this is why we gave us free will. We also give the ability for our children to make their own choices, and we punish them if they do something wrong… because we love them. Just like God loves us.

“How can people be happy while others suffer in hell?”

Do you cry at night for the people who sleep in prisons? I won’t lie: I would rather that criminals don’t exist. But they do and I accept that they need to receive consequences for what they do.

Now let’s suppose your father is a murderer. Of course you would still love him… but would it be right to help him avoid the law?

So in the end, people aren’t happy that others are going to hell. But we cannot say that it isn’t fair either: because it is. There is no blame in God for this.

“Why in heaven there is X?”

Those are mostly symbolism: they tell that heaven is a place of peace, of light. This is it.

Hell is not a place of brimstone at the center of Earth: hell is a place of darkness. This is it.

They were used to make it easier to people to understand. You know that people learns more with examples. For example, if the Bible just said: ‘Heaven is a nice place!’ people would ask: ‘Nice like what?’ This isn’t really a fault that could be applied to God... but I felt like explaining it anyway. ^-^

“God sins in the bible.”

Which of the sins he does? The only sin I could see to apply to him is pride and that frankly would make no sense. Pride means giving more success to yourself than you deserve. And God is perfect: there is no one better than him. God deserves all the glory of the world… and that probably wouldn’t be enough for his magnificence. There is no sin there.

“Why God allows evil?”

Because he allows free will. Tell me: what happens if you shelter a child the entire life from the outside world? The child will probably grow spoiled, naïve or with other undesiring traits. It’s in the trials and challenges that we humans have the chance to improve yourselves. He does this because he loves us. Can you really blame him for that?

You also blame him for not stopping evil. Again, that is answered with free will. Would you chain your son just to make sure he won’t do anything bad?

“You follow religion just because your forefathers did it.”

I won’t lie: many of us does. Me? I started religious… then I became somewhat atheist for a time… and now I am converted. There are also many of us that follow it because we researched and now we understand it. Please try to not make generalizations.

“Your God kills people!”

In the Bible there are passages where God unleashed his power. You could put those deaths on his account. You could also put the deaths of the nature also in his account too. And since God knows and can do anything, you could also put each murder on Earth on his hat. And you also could… do you see where I am getting?

It’s silly to blame death on God, because no one dies without his consent. He knows the time of dying of each person on this world, and he decided that our bodies aren’t eternal.

“I don’t need to hear things from you while there are hypocrites in your religion.”

Well, there are corrupt police officers. And there are corrupt politicians. Should we give up on law enforcement and democracy just because of that?

If we wait until each organization is perfect before relaying our ideals, then we are doomed to never act: republicans… democrats… don’t matter. There is no single organization in this world that is perfect.

We humans aren’t perfect, be in the church or outside. Only God is perfect. This is why we should strive to be more like God: because he is the example of what we should do.

…

Sorry for intruding, but I felt the need to contest some of your points. I will wait your answer. Keep safe.

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Berserkeroo In reply to LightPony [2012-12-11 05:06:13 +0000 UTC]

No need to worry. I don't mind talking about religion so long as you aren't rude about it. I will respect your opinion so long as you respect mine. I was once a Christian. I've been that way since I was born, but I've grown tired of the bigotry and lies that come with it. I am well aware of Christianity's "good" points, but there is far too much negativity that I simply can't (and don't feel like I should) tolerate.

Like I've stated, be my guest for I have nothing against those who love their religion enough to defend it with in a rational and gentle explanation. Doesn't necessarily mean that it will change my outlook, but it could bring more insight about the religion. I like to learn about as many as possible.

That wasn't my quote so remove the quotation marks. I said he would "turn a blind eye towards his 'children' when they aren't gullible enough to believe in fictitious tales." This doesn't necessarily mean that I said he sends people to hell because he doesn't care, but that for a being known to be all loving, it's not right to sentence creatures that you are supposed to love so much to an eternal fiery damnation. It defeats the purpose of being all loving. If you want people to believe, give them a reason to believe. Quit the mystery and show yourself. That's basically what I meant by that.

God didn't turn a blind eye to anyone. In fact it's the opposite: those who don't go to heaven are those who turned their backs to God. Using a real life example, when you are invited to live on a house it’s expected that you will follow its rules. If I invited you for my home, I wouldn’t like to see you stealing things or beating on my brothers. If you don’t agree with them, why should you be allowed inside of it?

But you leave out the fact that there is no where else to go. It's either living in your home or going to an abusive home where you suffer. Certain things in the bible, I can agree with. It makes life easier for all who live on this planet, but if you expect someone to follow your every whim just to gain access into your house is completely ridiculous and unreasonable. Do I walk on eggshells my whole life and live a life to this one person, or do I live a life worth living and suffer for not living up to par with this person's expectation. Why can't there be an intermediate home. One that's not abusive, but not perfect either. If you're too scared to live, then you're not living; you're existing.

For one you didn't need to use caps to emphasis you're point. I am reading your post as I go along with my response so yeah, I did talk about hell. Sorry to say this, since I'm really trying not to be offensive, but do you know how absolutely illogical that sounded just now. I have felt happier than I ever had since I've left the Christian faith. My soul feels free from the dominion of a religion that restrained me.

You might want to keep into consideration that I once was a Christian. I know what you are referring to. I actually believed that while I was younger. I'm not an atheist, more so, Deist.

It's not that they don't want to walk with god, if he or she existed, it's that people are flawed and that the standards that are set are unreasonable for humanity as a whole. Why raise a bar so high that people can't reach? That's like putting cookies on a shelf that short people can't reach so since they can't have a cookie, they have to go with a less desirable alternative because the jar is out of reach because of their nature. No one would choose to be eternally harmed so don't say it's by choice. Yes I would, if it would prevent them from excruciating pain and suffering! I'm not even a social person, but I know that if put in that situation it would be the better choice. Would you not walk with a woman whose lover beats her because she doesn't enjoy your company? Are you that selfish that you can't find the compassion to put something petty over the life of an individual?

There is no way to explain eternal suffering of an individual as being fair. It's not love or compassion. It's not taking him out of your life if you can't even get to him because of his unreasonable demands...

If we are going to keep this discussion, please quit the quotations since it's not my exact words. You're paraphrasing.

And god couldn't simply forgive? Why should anyone have to die to save someone from eternal suffering from a god that shouldn't make that a form of punishment? Couldn't he, I don't know, have them experience the crime they committed, that way no one has to die and they learn a much valuable lesson. What's the point of punishing them in death when they can't take their lesson and spread it to their fellow man? Back on subject, I don't think that's a good lesson to children is the main reason I said that. The other person just set me on a rant is all. Don't take me as ignorant to the bible. The good are sacrificed to help the bad? Be him the son of god or not, that's the lesson that some actually get. My little cousin was the one who pointed that out to me a few years back. It was shocking (and that is bad considering how young she was and came to that conclusion on her own) when I thought about it...

I never said that I don't believe in heaven. I'm really iffy on that subject, but I doubt it exists. I've read the bible on this part, but for the sake of that statement, just because something is "god's will" doesn't mean the person under that influence knows it. This is another thing that gets me about Christianity. Why do you say we have free will when god is always in control? It makes no sense. Either we have free will meaning god doesn't interfere in our lives or that we have no free will, meaning god is setting us on a path of either eternal bliss or eternal damnation...

Again, fair judgment is to punish people who did something wrong. Certain things are not really horrible, but against a book written millennia ago. There's a difference between things that are harmful to others and things that you like to indulge in. Being able to enjoy things that are available on Earth isn't a bad thing... But people going to hell just because they lie? Because they disrespect a parent that has been nothing but cruel to them? Because they wanted sex before marriage? Because they are a different sexual orientation? People have their own sense of morality based on nature and upbringing. If they don't want to harm someone or take something, they won't.

That, my friend, is complete and total nonsense. There are people here who have great lives on Earth, but oh wait, they burn in eternal purgatory. It's not even a need to repent; it's a feeling of guilt for doing something you feel is wrong. A few animal species have even been known to feel guilty. Search for it in Google if you don't believe me.

One thing that will probably be repeated again, throughout this discussion is that I'm aware of the things in which you speak. But because we want to live our lives as we want, we don't want to live in a "paradise". So if a hungry person steals an apple and doesn't feel bad for it and just so happens to die because the apple had Salmonella or something, he/she should be cast into hell...

But there's more to it than that. "You must turn from your wicked ways". Ways, which you think, are regular behavior, but are far from it; they're sin. That is the catch. If he can't turn a blind eye, why chose to let children starve in poor countries. They have done nothing wrong and even when they praise this god; they still may not be helped. "They were removed from their suffering to join god in eternity". If he can't turn a blind eye to evil, why turn it to the miserable?

It last forever and you can't get out. At least in prison, you have an opportunity to be removed based on the crime committed. Prison is a consequence. Hell is eternal torture. It's not like warning your kid about a stove. At least if they touch the stove the burn will heal. You don't heal from a kind of thing like hell.

Or how about like I stated before. Let the punishment fit the crime. Let them suffer the crime they committed so that they can tell others not to do the same. As for the whole "sin from the heart" thing, that's wrong to infringe on someone's privacy and punish them for what they thought instead of the act is wrong. That's like sending a pedophile to jail for just thinking of children. They aren't looking at child porn or molesting/having sex with children, but simply thinking of them. Heaven help us that they aren't committing the crime, but simply thinking of something they desire. Better a thought stay in the head, than be executed. Now as for the hell being a prison thing... if you were sent into such a torturous prison, why would you repeat the offense? Hell is supposed to be worse than any jail on this planet. There is no comparison. Some people are criminally insane or adapt to prison life. With hell, there is no adaption. Humans are stupid, but I believe after the third time you went to hell, you would get the message.

Those are minor crimes, not even worth paying. I've even gotten out of several tickets for those. Plus, cops are biased and most go by color profiling. They will be kinder to those like them so that would mean that god would be biased...

The laws of ones countries are founded by the dominant religion. If humanity would drop religion and go by developing a widely accepted sense of morality, there would be no issue. And refrain from the "if you don't believe in god you have no morals" thing. It's highly moronic and without foundation. Research a country based off of its religion or culture (which is shaped by religion).

There are several reasons one would break the law. If a man robs a bank so he can buy milk for his baby daughter, does that make him a bad man? If a woman takes the knife at her throat from the man trying to rape her and kills him, is she a bad woman? If a man is surrounded by angry religious fanatics trying to harm him for not being of their religion and lies to save his life, is he a bad man? If you say yes, then you have no capacity to love your fellow man.

No, because that's not in my personality, nor in my being. I will die for my freedom and right to a life I want to live. That's kind of how the US was founded. Note that the founding fathers said "creator" instead of "God" (or any variation of the name). They wanted a freedom of religion. The right for all to live with the religion (or lack thereof) based on choice.

Get your facts straight. You would need to be a mental patient with a severe form of psychosis in order for the word lobotomy to fall from a practitioners lip. If you are in prison and the State or government finds out, the jail could be closed down, inmates would be transferred which would cost huge amounts of money, the individual would be released with pay for suffering, and the individual(s) performing the procedure would lose their license and probably be exiled for cruel and unusual punishment. This will be on the media and other countries will hear of this. The government would not allow this to happen, so your point is moot. Pick a different scenario.

He gave us free will because that is the greatest gift you can give to someone: that doesn’t mean that he has to accept everything we do. When he made us, he wished us to be more like him; this is why we gave us free will. We also give the ability for our children to make their own choices, and we punish them if they do something wrong… because we love them. Just like God loves us.

Then don't moan and complain about it when you give them the option. Unlike him we aren't supernatural beings with the ability to better lives for all. If you are afraid of the boat tipping over then don't rock the boat. But we don't send them to a place like hell either. Religious people don't really give them freedom of choice; otherwise you would take your kids to church at a young age and stop after a while. If they want to go back, let them go back of their own accord. Don't let them sit in a brainwashing service instilling a fear and forced acceptance to a religion that they were in from birth. I wasn't given that. I had to go through finding this out on my own.

My father is in a prison (for a crime he didn't even commit) so yes I feel bad that people are in prisons. A former friend of his planted drugs in his car for an incident that happened when they were taking photographs at a club. You have to account that some are innocent in the jail system. Even those who are guilty don't deserve to be in a jail cell. Shooting someone who is in your home out of self-defense. They obviously deserve to be put in jail.

So again, I can blame the judicial system as much as I can blame god.

This was meant more as a taunt towards the other person, because he/she was being an inconsiderate, rude individual. Well aware of the symbolisms. I don't usually like to sound like a douche bag or something, but some of the Christians are just... (refer to Wesboro Baptist Church)

Everyone deserves the right to be prideful. You shouldn't take all the adoration for yourself. If you want praise and glory all to yourself, it's pitiful. To make creatures worship you every day for eternity... Wow, that's kind of pathetic. Again refer to the list I gave you; wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, and envy. He is a jealous god, he wants what has been taken in conquests, he slept on the seventh day (and sits back and does nothing but watch things roll by), he exerts his wrath on those who don't want to bow down to him, and he desires our love and attention.

That's not completely true. Just because someone would lack physical experience doesn't mean that they will be worse off than the other person. That's like saying a home schooled child will make worse grades than a public or private school child. The traits of a child depend on the care of the parent. Yes, yes I can. It's not right and you completely negated the horrors that he lets go by. Forget about being sheltered. This lesson is saying that he cares about the murderers free will to kill, than his/her possible multiple victims free will to live. He cares more about the rapist’s free will to rape, than his/her victims. Forget the lesson if it causes suffering in mass! I wouldn't chain him to make sure he doesn't do anything bad, but I would report his behaviors to the cops or send him to get help if he was doing something like what I mentioned. If he's doing small deviant things (swearing, graffiti, tattoo, etc.), let him. He's a human, and entitled to make mistakes.

“You follow religion just because your forefathers did it.”

It's still fact! Most people are religious because they're parents put them in Sunday school... It doesn't even have to be Christianity this is religion in general.

His lack of action is action. If you choose not to help a child being killed across the street then your wrong for sitting there and doing nothing. He holds death in his hands so why not put a stop to it, make death bearable, or forget death all together and ascend people into heaven. He did it for Elijah and Enoc.

Precisely, which is why it's his fault. He kills people. To cause death = killing. If someone managed to pull it off without his consent, then that would mean they are beyond god. Since Christians do not believe this that means it's his fault. I can accept that the body isn't eternal, but no one decided that someone should have the right to end our lives.

To be honest, yes, because Switzerland is beating us at our own government. Though not a world power, they are doing democracy better than us. If the country can do what the founders originally planned and kept the church and state separate we wouldn't have certain controversies.

It doesn't need to be perfect to make people happy, it needs to be equal. That's what the US is supposed to be, a land of opportunity and equality. You've heard of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

I don't strive to be perfect, I strive to be a better me. I don't have to live a life trying to mimic someone else.

I appreciate your conversation since I don't get much with a levelheaded individual very often. Keep safe yourself.

👍: 0 ⏩: 1

LightPony In reply to Berserkeroo [2012-12-14 11:03:01 +0000 UTC]

“No need to worry. I don't mind talking about religion so long as you aren't rude about it. I will respect your opinion so long as you respect mine. I was once a Christian. I've been that way since I was born, but I've grown tired of the bigotry and lies that come with it. I am well aware of Christianity's "good" points, but there is far too much negativity that I simply can't (and don't feel like I should) tolerate.”

Of course Christianity isn’t perfect. But to call it lies and bigotry is wrong: the bible doesn’t approve what isn’t true. In fact there was never been a contradiction in the bible that wasn’t been rebuked. As for bigotry, the bible teaches us to be kind to everyone so I don’t see your point. Unless you are complaining about disagreeing with certain comportments, which would be wrong: just because we love someone doesn’t mean we have to turn a blind eye to their mistakes.

“Like I've stated, be my guest for I have nothing against those who love their religion enough to defend it with in a rational and gentle explanation. Doesn't necessarily mean that it will change my outlook, but it could bring more insight about the religion. I like to learn about as many as possible.“

There is plenty of proof that the bible is real, however that really depends on how much proof you need.

If you are talking about historic evidence, then there is plenty: historical tablets, temples... in fact there is even a chance that Noah ark has been found. Many historians, backed with archaeology, accept that the bible has sound historical value.

If you are talking about the bible scientific value, then I also have to disagree: concepts like the roundness of Earth, gravitation and even conservation of mass are present on its pages. Of course their understanding was far more limited because they didn't have the tools that we do: nonetheless those concepts are still sound with today science.

At last, if you are talking about God miracles... then, like many other things, science cannot prove them. That's because when God did them he was showing his power over nature: as such, the laws of nature cannot apply over them. Still, there is something that is sound in its pages: prophecies. The bible is a collection of books separated by many years, and yet they fill each other perfect. There is never been a broken prophecy: each one was fulfilled or is to be.

If not even this is enough, then I have to tell you that we accept a lot of things in our lives with far less proof than that. We (as individual beings) never did all of the scientific experiments to ensure our science books, we weren’t alive at the time of history to ensure its all truth, in fact we never visited each country in the world to make sure they really exist and that the people who live there really are what they are.

For example, a lot of people think that Brazil is a forest country: this is a misconception. The cities of Brasilia and São Paulo are huge cities which fall in par with many cities of the developed world. We humans accept a lot of things with limited proof, so why not accept the best thing for humanity? Of course you may disagree that God is the best thing… but for me He is.


“That wasn't my quote so remove the quotation marks. I said he would "turn a blind eye towards his 'children' when they aren't gullible enough to believe in fictitious tales." This doesn't necessarily mean that I said he sends people to hell because he doesn't care, but that for a being known to be all loving, it's not right to sentence creatures that you are supposed to love so much to an eternal fiery damnation. It defeats the purpose of being all loving. If you want people to believe, give them a reason to believe. Quit the mystery and show yourself. That's basically what I meant by that.”

Sorry, I was trying to compress what you said in order to save space. I will direct quote you from now on.

As I said, God doesn’t necessary send people to hell. He simply refuses their entrance to heaven. That’s quite a difference. I will expand more on your other point.

As for God not showing himself… how much proof do you actually want? Should God show himself to you just so you can believe in him?

Let me expand: do you believe Bin Laden is dead? Most of America accepted that he was killed in the Obama raid. Others don’t. Do you believe man landed in the moon? Most of America accepted… others keep their conspiracy theories even today.

God gives enough proof for people to believe in him. The thing is that God keeps an indirect approach in this world: he talks through his people and his word. Why he doesn’t take a more direct approach? Remember what Jesus said: ‘Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.’

If God showed himself, there wouldn’t be a need for faith. People wouldn’t believe in him because of what he did for us, people would believe in him just because he existed. It would be like: ‘I follow you God, because I know that you exist.’ That isn’t the reason that God wants us to follow him. ‘I follow you God, because I know of your great love for us.’ that is his true reason.

If he did that, he would receive a lot of followers who follows him just because of his existence and his power. And that would hurt his church and his word more than simply refusing to show himself.

“But you leave out the fact that there is no where else to go. It's either living in your home or going to an abusive home where you suffer. Certain things in the bible, I can agree with. It makes life easier for all who live on this planet, but if you expect someone to follow your every whim just to gain access into your house is completely ridiculous and unreasonable. Do I walk on eggshells my whole life and live a life to this one person, or do I live a life worth living and suffer for not living up to par with this person's expectation. Why can't there be an intermediate home. One that's not abusive, but not perfect either. If you're too scared to live, then you're not living; you're existing.”

You are quite close. It isn’t two homes: it’s a home and what exists beyond the home. Like I said before, there is a difference: you aren’t being sent to another place, you are just outside of it.

God demands can be seen as hard to follow, but he gave us ways to atone for them. God doesn’t expect us to be perfect: but he does expect us to repent when we make mistakes. That is not an unreasonable thing to demand.

The problem is that we humans tend to wish to do things we shouldn’t do. For example, people nowadays don’t see a problem in picking a chainsaw in a videogame and go cutting people open. But if you imagine what is going through their own heart, you will see how God is fair in showing his dislike for those kinds of things.

We should strive to do and keep good things in our minds, as such we should follow God example. It’s not being scared: that would be the same as saying: ‘I don’t kill people because I don’t want to be sent to jail.’ The correct would be: ‘I don’t kill people because I understand that I should love my brothers.’

As for why there isn’t an intermediate home… as I explained, imagine a box. If you aren’t inside a box… where are you? God could even make an intermediate place… but it would be like hell if he doesn’t give his light. And if he gives his light, would it be right to force his presence to people who don’t want it? And how would his holiness react with seeing so many things that are wrong, and that it demands to be justified?

Do you see how problematic it would be to create a middle ground? The same way it would be to take a more direct action upon the world. God’s wisdom is unlimited; he considered all those things before making this world.


“For one you didn't need to use caps to emphasis you're point. I am reading your post as I go along with my response so yeah, I did talk about hell. Sorry to say this, since I'm really trying not to be offensive, but do you know how absolutely illogical that sounded just now. I have felt happier than I ever had since I've left the Christian faith. My soul feels free from the dominion of a religion that restrained me.”

Well, laws do also restrain us. Do you think laws are bad?

Our society couldn’t exist without laws. We need to have some form of control, something that we can stand by and teaches us. Imagine if everyone acted upon their own whims: the world would become a place of barbarians.


“You might want to keep into consideration that I once was a Christian. I know what you are referring to. I actually believed that while I was younger. I'm not an atheist, more so, Deist.”

Like I said, I was a Christian too. But not a ‘Christian’.

We only become ‘Christians’ when we are reborn again. And that only happens with the study of the bible, daily prayer and much faith.


“It's not that they don't want to walk with god, if he or she existed, it's that people are flawed and that the standards that are set are unreasonable for humanity as a whole. Why raise a bar so high that people can't reach? That's like putting cookies on a shelf that short people can't reach so since they can't have a cookie, they have to go with a less desirable alternative because the jar is out of reach because of their nature. No one would choose to be eternally harmed so don't say it's by choice. Yes I would, if it would prevent them from excruciating pain and suffering! I'm not even a social person, but I know that if put in that situation it would be the better choice. Would you not walk with a woman whose lover beats her because she doesn't enjoy your company? Are you that selfish that you can't find the compassion to put something petty over the life of an individual?”

They would be unreasonable if there wasn’t a way to deal with them. For example, let’s suppose that you had to climb the tallest mountain in the world without using any tool. That would be a terrible thing to do. But then I came and say: there is an elevator that goes there. That is kind of like it.

As I explained, God demands are on perfection because he is perfect. Because he knows that we humans cannot be perfect, we give us a way to find perfection. This is it.

As for you nobody would choose harm for themselves, yes they would. How many people in the world smoke knowing it’s complications, for example? How many people drunk drive? People usually choose what gives the most pleasure, without thinking about the consequences later on.

I am not sure which of my phrases you are referring; however God doesn’t beat anyone: but he doesn’t stop us from harming yourselves. Taking your example, it would be like that woman was blind and kept falling into pits through the street. When her lover, God, tries to help her she usually tells him to scram, saying: ‘Go away, I can do things by myself!’.

“There is no way to explain eternal suffering of an individual as being fair. It's not love or compassion. It's not taking him out of your life if you can't even get to him because of his unreasonable demands...”

It is when you put that this person chooses to receive it. Now you will ask: who would want eternal suffering? And I will reply: how many people smoke, use drugs, steal and kill when fully knowing the consequences?

It is in fact a great show of love to allow people to make choices, even if those could land them in a prison or hospital. You can warn about them, but you can’t really restrain them.

And the demands would be unreasonable if there wasn’t a way to do them. There is. And it’s even simpler now with Jesus sacrifice

“If we are going to keep this discussion, please quit the quotations since it's not my exact words. You're paraphrasing. “

Already did. That was explained, I was just trying to solidify the text in order to make that comment a bit shorter. Because this one is over seven thousand words.


“And god couldn't simply forgive? Why should anyone have to die to save someone from eternal suffering from a god that shouldn't make that a form of punishment? Couldn't he, I don't know, have them experience the crime they committed, that way no one has to die and they learn a much valuable lesson. What's the point of punishing them in death when they can't take their lesson and spread it to their fellow man? Back on subject, I don't think that's a good lesson to children is the main reason I said that. The other person just set me on a rant is all. Don't take me as ignorant to the bible. The good are sacrificed to help the bad? Be him the son of god or not, that's the lesson that some actually get. My little cousin was the one who pointed that out to me a few years back. It was shocking (and that is bad considering how young she was and came to that conclusion on her own) when I thought about it...“

Why he shouldn’t make this a form of punishment? In fact, is it really a punishment?

Like I explained, it’s silly to complain about Jesus’ sacrifice. Because Jesus knew full well what was going to happen and accepted it. In fact, you seem to forget that Jesus revived, unless you don’t believe in this following part. If God came to me and asked me to sacrifice myself for the whole humanity, of course I would do it. And I am sure you would do it too.

As for your theory of punishment, this would be flawed. Would a rapist be raped, for example? God cannot fight evil with evil. That is why he uses the perfect justice.

What is wrong with the good sacrifice ‘themselves’ in order to save the bad? God didn’t force us to make a sacrifice, but he expects us to do it.

To sacrifice your own life for someone an ally is a great deed. To sacrifice your life for the sake of an enemy… is there a deed greater than this? You may disagree with it, but you must remember that loving someone that likes you is easy: loving someone who hates you is the true challenge that we Christians have to strive for.


“I never said that I don't believe in heaven. I'm really iffy on that subject, but I doubt it exists. I've read the bible on this part, but for the sake of that statement, just because something is "god's will" doesn't mean the person under that influence knows it. This is another thing that gets me about Christianity. Why do you say we have free will when god is always in control? It makes no sense. Either we have free will meaning god doesn't interfere in our lives or that we have no free will, meaning god is setting us on a path of either eternal bliss or eternal damnation...”

One doesn’t exclude the other: God acts indirectly upon our world. He allows you to make our choices, but he also offers support when we ask for it. However, God support is usually a spiritual one: hope, spiritual strength, determination.

Still, sometimes he may grace us with a direct miracle: of course people usually don’t believe in them. But I am sure you heard things such as incurable sickness being cured, for example. But as I said with my other answer, when he does this he does to show his love for us. Death isn’t a thing as terrible as we humans consider it.

“Again, fair judgment is to punish people who did something wrong. Certain things are not really horrible, but against a book written millennia ago. There's a difference between things that are harmful to others and things that you like to indulge in. Being able to enjoy things that are available on Earth isn't a bad thing... But people going to hell just because they lie? Because they disrespect a parent that has been nothing but cruel to them? Because they wanted sex before marriage? Because they are a different sexual orientation? People have their own sense of morality based on nature and upbringing. If they don't want to harm someone or take something, they won't.”

I am sorry, but can you really see what you are doing? You are trying to define what is right and what is wrong, with different levels of a little and a lot.

Listen, it’s not you that decide what is right and what isn’t. There is no such thing as a ‘lesser evil’ or a ‘big evil’. Evil is evil. You may not see them as big deal, but they are. Because they are still wrong.

For example, lying is terrible. God is the truth and a Christian should say the truth even if it hurts. Lies are a powerful weapon that can be both destructive to people lives, or help you build your own power at the expense of half truths. Either way those things don’t please God.

Everyone deserves respect. Even Hitler. You can feel relieved that they are in jail, they are far from you… but you shouldn’t treat anyone with disrespect. When you disrespect someone, you are also doing evil to that person and you really shouldn’t fall to their level.

Sex was been made as a very pleasurable experience for us humans, but God did this to help unite man and woman, not for them to use this as a simple tool for fun. Sex should be treated as something sacred, otherwise it becomes a vice. And God disapproves all the vices.

God wanted man and woman to form couples; this is why he made woman from a piece of man. God also wanted that everyone to love each other. But like I explained, sexuality is something sacred. If you love someone in a no sexual way, what is the different between loving him and loving a brother or father? The problem of God isn’t with love, it’s it sexual instincts. And sexual instincts can be controlled.


“That, my friend, is complete and total nonsense. There are people here who have great lives on Earth, but oh wait, they burn in eternal purgatory. It's not even a need to repent; it's a feeling of guilt for doing something you feel is wrong. A few animal species have even been known to feel guilty. Search for it in Google if you don't believe me.”

But really, being ‘good’ isn’t enough, because good is a human value. You can consider yourself to be good and be a jerk, for example. Also, how much good should you be to enter heaven? You really can’t define this in steel and fire.

Also I wanted to point that you can feel guilt is a personal emotion and doesn’t apply to God justice. You can feel bad about something you did and never repay it, for example. About your animal example, yes, animals are able to feel many types of feelings. But different from us they don’t have the concept of what is evil through the Lord eyes.

“One thing that will probably be repeated again, throughout this discussion is that I'm aware of the things in which you speak. But because we want to live our lives as we want, we don't want to live in a "paradise". So if a hungry person steals an apple and doesn't feel bad for it and just so happens to die because the apple had Salmonella or something, he/she should be cast into hell...”

Correct, that explains the gist of it.
As for your example, stealing is a wrong choice. A Christian would beg for food, but shouldn’t ever steal for it. It’s better to starve your body than starve your spirit.

“But there's more to it than that. "You must turn from your wicked ways". Ways, which you think, are regular behavior, but are far from it; they're sin. That is the catch. If he can't turn a blind eye, why chose to let children starve in poor countries. They have done nothing wrong and even when they praise this god; they still may not be helped. "They were removed from their suffering to join god in eternity". If he can't turn a blind eye to evil, why turn it to the miserable?”

Sadly, people do think that some things they do every day is not sin. But when you study sufficiently the bible, you begin to understand and are able to avoid them.

About your example, I will say this again afterward, but let me say again: you are giving to much value to death. It’s better to lose this life than love the afterlife.

He cares about them, but as I said before he doesn’t direct act. But he does indirectly: he sends rains to those places. He sends missionaries, who often bring supplies to them. He hears their prayers and their wishes, giving them hope to try to survive in the harshest places.

In fact I say that we could even be a bit envious of them: because they are probably going to receive greater glory than us when we die. If you remember the bible, those who suffer will be satisfied.

“It last forever and you can't get out. At least in prison, you have an opportunity to be removed based on the crime committed. Prison is a consequence. Hell is eternal torture. It's not like warning your kid about a stove. At least if they touch the stove the burn will heal. You don't heal from a kind of thing like hell.”

How do you get out of outside a ‘home’? You can only get inside of it.

As for the burn, that was an example. Hell is not a threat: it’s a consequence. The thing is that each mistake takes its toll and since we are not perfect we will keep sinning forever. The good thing is that we can atone for those sins, so that justice is still served.


“Or how about like I stated before. Let the punishment fit the crime. Let them suffer the crime they committed so that they can tell others not to do the same. As for the whole "sin from the heart" thing, that's wrong to infringe on someone's privacy and punish them for what they thought instead of the act is wrong. That's like sending a pedophile to jail for just thinking of children. They aren't looking at child porn or molesting/having sex with children, but simply thinking of them. Heaven help us that they aren't committing the crime, but simply thinking of something they desire. Better a thought stay in the head, than be executed. Now as for the hell being a prison thing... if you were sent into such a torturous prison, why would you repeat the offense? Hell is supposed to be worse than any jail on this planet. There is no comparison. Some people are criminally insane or adapt to prison life. With hell, there is no adaption. Humans are stupid, but I believe after the third time you went to hell, you would get the message.”

But here is the thing: isn’t a wrong a wrong itself? I will say this again later, but follow with me. Is there a thing as ‘very wrong’ and ‘a little wrong’?

We humans give value to crimes based on our beliefs: there are countries that have death penalty, others don’t for example. God also does this: consider that God is the light itself, the most pure thing on the universe. How much value do you think he gives when he sees something evil?

There is no ‘little’ or ‘big’ sin. A mistake is a mistake that needs to be atoned. And if you think about it, there is no way to be fairer: would you let someone evil in the holiest place in existence? You can’t, unless that person earned redemption from it. That is God justice.

It’s wrong because we humans say so? Can you really say that there is nothing wrong with thinking about raping someone, for example? Those things are sins, and sins are and always will be sins.

About the last thing, you have to remember that sins come from the heart. You can still curse someone, or think bad things while in hell. You wouldn’t stop being human just because of that.


“Those are minor crimes, not even worth paying. I've even gotten out of several tickets for those. Plus, cops are biased and most go by color profiling. They will be kinder to those like them so that would mean that god would be biased...“

Isn’t a minor crime still a crime? I am sorry, but if you break the law you need to receive the fair punishment. You can’t really say that it isn’t fair.

You can accuse cops of being biased, but even if they were perfect fair those things would still be crimes, and you would have to pay what you owe to society when you break them.

“The laws of ones countries are founded by the dominant religion. If humanity would drop religion and go by developing a widely accepted sense of morality, there would be no issue. And refrain from the "if you don't believe in god you have no morals" thing. It's highly moronic and without foundation. Research a country based off of its religion or culture (which is shaped by religion).”

While I don’t disagree that the laws are inspired by religiosity, you have to remember that the laws are made for humans. And humans are affected by religion, so it would be silly to expect it to play no part.

Humanity would never drop religion, because like it or not humans are spiritual beings. In fact I have met atheists who believe in things like extraterritorial life, which others can see as absurd. The thing is that we humans need to find something to believe, and that is an aspect that is impossible to remove from us.

I don’t remember saying it, are you sure you aren’t putting words in my mouth? Nonetheless, everyone can have personal morals. Still, the bible offers the only moral code that even through is one of the oldest, with rules can still apply today. And the problem with your approach is this: if you say that you have a human moral, then I can say I have a human moral. We both have morals with the same value, so both of our morals have the same value. Now apply this for six billion people: which morals are right?

But now let’s say that a figure of authority was a set of morals. His morals are stronger than the rest, so he is able to apply it them to us. And while that thing could be a king, a president… which better thing to be rather than God, the perfect being?

As I said, the predominant religion does make it easier to convert people. Still, if that was all true missionary work wouldn’t work.

“There are several reasons one would break the law. If a man robs a bank so he can buy milk for his baby daughter, does that make him a bad man? If a woman takes the knife at her throat from the man trying to rape her and kills him, is she a bad woman? If a man is surrounded by angry religious fanatics trying to harm him for not being of their religion and lies to save his life, is he a bad man? If you say yes, then you have no capacity to love your fellow man.”

I am sorry, but you are wrong there. A true Christian would rather die than steal to fulfill his needs or the needs of someone we love. A true Christian would rather endure abuse than commit murder. Lots of Christians in the past endured terrible deaths in order to stay faithful to their principles. A following situation doesn’t make a mistake acceptable.

Jesus stood through a lot of pain… and yet he protected those who condemned him. He healed the ear of one of those who attempted to arrest him. Do you remember this?

You can try to paint this as ‘doing a lesser evil to prevent a bigger one.’ But isn’t doing evil still doing evil? You can’t exempt your responsible for what you did by putting the blame in the situation. Is it worth to save this life if you are going to lose your soul?


“No, because that's not in my personality, nor in my being. I will die for my freedom and right to a life I want to live. That's kind of how the US was founded. Note that the founding fathers said "creator" instead of "God" (or any variation of the name). They wanted a freedom of religion. The right for all to live with the religion (or lack thereof) based on choice.”

I am not American, so I cannot say much about this. But you are right: you can live how you want to. But you cannot expect to avoid responsibility for what you do.


“Get your facts straight. You would need to be a mental patient with a severe form of psychosis in order for the word lobotomy to fall from a practitioners lip. If you are in prison and the State or government finds out, the jail could be closed down, inmates would be transferred which would cost huge amounts of money, the individual would be released with pay for suffering, and the individual(s) performing the procedure would lose their license and probably be exiled for cruel and unusual punishment. This will be on the media and other countries will hear of this. The government would not allow this to happen, so your point is moot. Pick a different scenario.”

So instead of answering, you critique the scenario? I will take that as a no. But here is a twist for you: and if I said that this happened in the future, where this practice was acceptable? The point is not moot anymore.

“Then don't moan and complain about it when you give them the option. Unlike him we aren't supernatural beings with the ability to better lives for all. If you are afraid of the boat tipping over then don't rock the boat. But we don't send them to a place like hell either. Religious people don't really give them freedom of choice; otherwise you would take your kids to church at a young age and stop after a while. If they want to go back, let them go back of their own accord. Don't let them sit in a brainwashing service instilling a fear and forced acceptance to a religion that they were in from birth. I wasn't given that. I had to go through finding this out on my own.”

God isn’t complaining about it. He simply says: if you do this, that will happen. Just like a judge when he gives a sentence. It’s the people who receive them that complain about it.

About taking kids to the church… the same could be said to taking children to the school. There are many things that the school teaches that aren’t really facts: principles, habits, solidarity. Are those things bad? No. But they do teach good principles to the children. The same way the church does. If we say that we can’t teach children values we think are good, then we won’t be able to teach any good value to children at all. Can you imagine a society without values?

‘But I don’t think Christians values are good.’ You could say. But people opinion differs of what is a good value or what isn’t.

“My father is in a prison (for a crime he didn't even commit) so yes I feel bad that people are in prisons. A former friend of his planted drugs in his car for an incident that happened when they were taking photographs at a club. You have to account that some are innocent in the jail system. Even those who are guilty don't deserve to be in a jail cell. Shooting someone who is in your home out of self-defense. They obviously deserve to be put in jail. “

Here is another thing great about God: he has the perfect justice. Just like we humans are flawed, our justice is flawed. His justice isn’t.

“So again, I can blame the judicial system as much as I can blame god.”

You can blame who you want for anything that happens. But does it make it justified?

I won’t lie: I don’t think I could understand the pain this must have left you. But you shouldn’t blame the entire judicial system for that… or God.


“This was meant more as a taunt towards the other person, because he/she was being an inconsiderate, rude individual. Well aware of the symbolisms. I don't usually like to sound like a douche bag or something, but some of the Christians are just... (refer to Wesboro Baptist Church)”

As I said, there are the good and the bad. We humans aren’t perfect… so why should our church be? Only God is perfect.


“Everyone deserves the right to be prideful. You shouldn't take all the adoration for yourself. If you want praise and glory all to yourself, it's pitiful. To make creatures worship you every day for eternity... Wow, that's kind of pathetic. Again refer to the list I gave you; wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, and envy. He is a jealous god, he wants what has been taken in conquests, he slept on the seventh day (and sits back and does nothing but watch things roll by), he exerts his wrath on those who don't want to bow down to him, and he desires our love and attention.”

Don’t you like when people praise your deeds? God didn’t exactly make a rule to praise him every day, but he does get pleased to it. Do you know why God made us? This is a question many humans struggle to answer. He made us just so he could love us. And we could love him. Is it a wrong thing to wish?

But before you say again about hell, like I said God is not only love: he is also mercy, holy and justice. He is perfect, so he needs to correct when he sees something wrong.

I am sorry, but what? Let me go through each one:

Jealous? Imagine that you made a beautiful work and someone else took credit from it. Would you be happy?

Conqueror? You mean when Israel fights with other nations, and offer him sacrifices? Israel is happy for their victory and offers his cattle to him because of their victory. After the cattle were sacrificed they were eaten afterwards, so I don’t see the problem with it.

Sloth? I am sorry, what again? He created the universe and he is lazy to sleep on the seventh day? First thing, he slept on purpose: to make it a sacred day, an example to humans to follow. Second he watches every person on the world and on heaven. This isn’t an easy job to dismiss like that.

Wrath? Wrath has more to do with revenge, which is far from justice. God utilizes justice, which is a proper retribution for the mistakes that are done. If you notice, whenever God acted the other nation had done something terrible. God doesn’t really smite people for just not bowing for him. But he doesn’t exempt them from their responsibilities either.

Wishing for love and attention? Is that even a bad thing? Everyone wants love and attention. In fact, we want this because God made us like that. So we could love him and each other, and he could love us. Of course he humans can take it to a dangerous level when we start to force others, but God doesn’t force anyone: he lets people to choose if they want to live in his light or don’t.

“That's not completely true. Just because someone would lack physical experience doesn't mean that they will be worse off than the other person. That's like saying a home schooled child will make worse grades than a public or private school child. The traits of a child depend on the care of the parent. Yes, yes I can. It's not right and you completely negated the horrors that he lets go by. Forget about being sheltered. This lesson is saying that he cares about the murderers free will to kill, than his/her possible multiple victims free will to live. He cares more about the rapist’s free will to rape, than his/her victims. Forget the lesson if it causes suffering in mass! I wouldn't chain him to make sure he doesn't do anything bad, but I would report his behaviors to the cops or send him to get help if he was doing something like what I mentioned. If he's doing small deviant things (swearing, graffiti, tattoo, etc.), let him. He's a human, and entitled to make mistakes.”

There is a difference between grades and life experience. Can you really disagree that a home schooled child would lack life experience when trying to get a job, for example?

Free will to live? I didn’t know that living was a choice. Living is a state, you can be alive or dead. Just like there is no free will to be safe: being safe is not a choice you make.

About the chaining, I said it more to show why it wouldn’t be right to exert fully control over someone. You would still do something, but wouldn’t exactly ‘restrain’ his wishes. Do you see where I am getting?


““You follow religion just because your forefathers did it.”

It's still fact! Most people are religious because they're parents put them in Sunday school... It doesn't even have to be Christianity this is religion in general.”

While there are many who may follow because of their parents, I called you because you had generalized beforehand. Not all of us follow just because of your parents: if that was true missionary missions would be fruitless, for example.


“His lack of action is action. If you choose not to help a child being killed across the street then your wrong for sitting there and doing nothing. He holds death in his hands so why not put a stop to it, make death bearable, or forget death all together and ascend people into heaven.”

Death is a transition in our lives. Final death is a different matter. Here, I will offer you another way to see through this: if God suddenly decided to stop all murders, then he would have to stop everyone that breaks his laws. Would it be fair to direct enforce a law without enforcing the others? As you can see, it would be the end of free will. This is why we shouldn’t do that.

“He did it for Elijah and Enoc.”

When God did miracles in the bible, the miracles were not important. It was the message that accompanied them that mattered. For example, why did Jesus revive? It wasn’t just to say ‘I can revive people if I want.’ It was to say ‘Those who believe in me can defeat death.’ There is a difference: he didn’t want to just show his power, he wished to show a message.

“Precisely, which is why it's his fault. He kills people. To cause death = killing. If someone managed to pull it off without his consent, then that would mean they are beyond god. Since Christians do not believe this that means it's his fault. I can accept that the body isn't eternal, but no one decided that someone should have the right to end our lives.”

You accept that you can die, but don’t accept that someone says when you will?

You see, this is one of the biggest issues you seem to be having. If you were a Christian, then you should know that we have eternal life. Our deaths are not a big issue after all. This life is a gift, just like eternal life is a gift. It’s like a toy with a limited battery: we shouldn’t try to break it just to receive a better one… but we have to accept that it will stop someday. Its batteries aren’t unlimited.


“To be honest, yes, because Switzerland is beating us at our own government. Though not a world power, they are doing democracy better than us. If the country can do what the founders originally planned and kept the church and state separate we wouldn't have certain controversies.“

But here is another thing that you keep forgetting: the state is made by people. And the church has an impact over people. Why shouldn’t the church have an effect on the state?

When I vote on my country, I will of course vote in people that I can sympathize with. And if I think being religious is a good thing, why shouldn’t I vote for a religious politician? Just because some people may not agree with them?

It’s impossible in politics to please all the sides, as such a politician will of course push the agenda of those he offered to support in his campaign. You really can’t blame this as a faulty of democracy.


“It doesn't need to be perfect to make people happy, it needs to be equal. That's what the US is supposed to be, a land of opportunity and equality. You've heard of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.“

You don’t need to be even good to make people happy. Have you ever wondered how there are jerks with so many friends? Your ability to do what is right doesn’t necessary means your ability to bring happiness.

Pursuing happiness is important, but not when you have to break the law to do so. Be it the government laws… or the laws of God, if you believe in him.


“I don't strive to be perfect, I strive to be a better me. I don't have to live a life trying to mimic someone else.”

You could start by correcting your minor issues instead of starting at the bigger ones, like those traffic fines.

You can’t really be ‘good enough’, you need to keep improving. And for that you need the example of what is this better person you could base yourself at. That person is God. ^-^


“I appreciate your conversation since I don't get much with a levelheaded individual very often. Keep safe yourself.”

Thank you. I will await your reply.

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Berserkeroo In reply to LightPony [2012-12-15 10:22:14 +0000 UTC]

Last time I checked, stoning people isn’t love or putting people to death isn’t love. I don’t mind calling people out when they’re in the wrong, but some of your wrong isn’t all that bad by society standards. Well if you think of it as a lie by others vantage. Some people say Buddhism is a lie, or Hinduism is a lie, but they think that their religion is the genuine article. Who are you to outright disgrace another person’s religion by calling it false? Now, I mean some of its teaching clash more so than a lie, though some of it is a lie by my studies. Write the commandments and they go off and kill people because god told them to…

Well if you want to prove your god or religious text is without flaw it all needs to be absolute. Not saying all of it is false, but some of it is. Take one of the most known bits that contradict biblical text; there is no (and I mean absolutely not a smidge) evidence stating that the Israelites were ever enslaved to the Egyptians. No skeletons, no recording in Egyptian hieroglyphs, no mummifications, nada.

The bible can be seen as having historic value since it is a book written millennia ago. Even if it is by fairy tale, they hold historic value since they can secretly relay a message. Little Red Ridding Hood? Be aware of strangers in the forest, especially men, since they would probably rape young women. As for Noah’s ark, I can buy into it maybe existing and saving people in a secluded area, not the world. That tale would have to be exclusive to a small area as global flooding would be something that would be easier to find based off of the fact that it would be one of the most recent things that happened to the planet on that grand a scale. If we can find the Ice Age which happened millions of years ago, why wouldn’t we be able to find a mere flood. We can find out if floods happen in small and large scales. It wouldn’t be that hard. The science in this tale is also contradictory as it isn’t likely to happen. The species of animal at the time were at least 6 million and taking that into consideration, you need two of each on such a small boat, plus you need room for people. The Titanic (882 feet long, 92 feet wide, and175 feet high) was bigger than Noah’s ark (450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high) and it could only hold up a little over 3,500 people and enough provision to last a few weeks, yet this smaller boat could hold that many animals plus like 8 people and enough provision to last a year? Dude, tell me that isn’t sketchy… Let’s try to make this a little better. If god or Noah, whoever decided to take out the variations of the species that would leave 17,400 birds, 12,000 reptiles, 9,000 mammals, 5,000 amphibians, and like 2,000,000 insects. Seriously, with all those animals it could only carry maybe 280 animal pairs. Lets take a few creatures that were there during biblical times. The amount of food the hippos need to eat is like 66,000 pounds of food, the lions are going to need like 17,000 pounds of meat (which would rot over the course of a year. Plus their predators, they won’t behave with all that fresh meat is walking about.), the giraffes are going to need around 55,000 pounds of food. This is a lot of weight for one tiny ark, and you want to put people on it? These are big animals and they will weigh tons. Even if they were babies, by the time most of these creatures reach Noah, they would be adults or if they were birthed on the spot these different species are out of their environment and could easily die by a slight climate change. You know what, forget this, even if all that wasn’t taken into consideration, the highest of mountains were going to be covered which the sea level would be at 29,000 or so feet. All of those animals and people would freeze to death and those that manage to survive would suffocate and die. The animals, the people, and heck even the sea life will die… The flooding will change the water temperature, filtration, the water pressure, sunlight, salt and fresh water will mix. All that equals to dead fish. Getting off the boat is another thing. The herbivores won’t have anything to eat after all the massive amount of flooding (I know the bird found an olive branch, but seriously, that amount of damage will be there for some years); this means that the carnivores won’t be able to eat either. Every time they eat one, an entire species goes extinct. It would take more than two individuals to make a thriving species rekindle. It would take at least 5,000 people to make sure that humans don’t have genetic defect and at least 40-70 individuals to repopulate the animals with enough genetic diversity. That’s jut calling for inbreeding if you don’t. If you don’t believe me, do the research. I did! These numbers didn’t just fall out of nowhere.

Sorry to bring this out on you, but that is one of the most flawed and I will usually like to nip that story in the bud. >.>

Well there are time when science can explain god, but I digress. It isn’t really explaining him, more likely, explaining natural occurrences that are “caused” by him.

That’s not showing power over nature. You cannot stop nature, since it has a science of it’s own. We can’t always prepare for it. If we want to talk about god stopping natural disasters, where was he during in New Orleans, Haiti, Japan, New York, San Francisco, Alaska, and Mt St Helens? Where was that power then? People are dead! That’s families that are never going to see each other again. How are you going to be so cruel to say it was the will of your god? I don’t really believe in things like prophecy or fate or destiny. It makes great material if you want to write a book or something, but that’s as far as I’m willing to dabble into that kind of thing.

I’m not foolish enough to not research a subject before spouting it off as truth. I choose not to look like fool while making my claims. I will however admit if I’m wrong of misinformed if that were the case. Most of this which you speak is a good point, but the world of science will not accept something as fact unless it can be done time and time again. Some things are kept simple based on educational status.

That isn’t really an example, more like a stereotype. Like how Americans are fat, the Chinese have small penises, the French never shave their pits, or the English having crooked teeth. It’s a shame that some people will believe just about anything without looking into things for themselves. I wouldn’t say he isn’t, but if I were to serve a deity that I put my time into believing that they exist, you have to truly earn it. You don’t torture me in this one life to make me so desperate to cling to your saving embrace. You do it through actions towards my fellow man, and a few good things towards myself wouldn’t hurt either.

I appreciate it. It’s just, if it’s compressed, then I fear for misinterpretation being put as a quote. I don’t need someone randomly reading and thinking I said something like “your god made mythical creatures” or something.

Well send them back to Earth with what they’ve learned so they can do better the second time around.

Uh, yeah. It would make things a lot easier on everyone. He is omnipresent after all.

I have no comment on that since I wasn’t given a body to look at or given a moon rock to study.

Uh, his people don’t always do a great job. Referring to these people right here. [link] That doesn’t make me want to come any closer to a god that makes people this spiteful and bigoted. The bible is open to interpretation, which is one of Christianity’s biggest flaws. You pick what fits your agenda and role with it. (Feel free to watch the whole documentary if you haven’t seen it. It’s quite insightful about the darker shadows of Christianity.)

But I wouldn’t have a reason to doubt his existence, which means one less person in hell. Work on the whole love thing after you have shown yourself. That way people know where their unconditional love comes from.

It wouldn’t really hurt it in the least. Society would be better off that way. Besides isn’t that what the church really comes down to. You accept that he’s real and love the great things he does because of his love and power?

Then how about I get extremely silly for a minute and say your house if the armed artillery with food and safety vs. the outside with the zombie apocalypse. XD *cough* Sorry, couldn’t help myself on that one.

Then why would he put a limit on how much he forgives and says that certain things are considered an abomination in his sight? That makes me want to think that there is something that even he can’t forgive…

But its not hurting anyone either. No need to get your feathers in a ruffle over it. If a man or woman decides to lust after my body, do I get angry? Probably not, so long as they keep their hands to themselves.

I don’t mind being an optimist, but chance is that it’s not going to last long. You also left out ‘I don’t kill people because it’s not my place to kill people’ or ‘Killing is wrong’. People can be moral without religious standings. You can have a love for your fellow man without being in a religion. I am usually picky with who I associate with and won’t tolerate talking to a moron, but I know when our backs are against the wall we should stand together.

But it’s not like people don’t want it. They choose not to burn or that thee sinned one time too many; something like that. Where is the justice for those who live in fear of this place or aren’t that bad? Well doesn’t he do that already here on Earth? You did say Earth was a place where he shed his light, just not as much as heaven. Ignore it, like how he ignores the wrongs of certain things on Earth. Some people go unpunished on this Earth. I’m not saying that it should be sin city in this immediate place, but that it should be places where decent people who have fallen short or aren’t that bad deserve to be.

It’s not bad to take a direct approach. At least it shows that you take personal interest in the matter and that you care.

Depends on the law. I take after Gandhi, Thoreau, and MLK when it comes to civil disobedience. You have an obligation to break an unjust law that restrains you.

It’s more like a combination of authority and laws that makes a civilization. If we all had the same moral code then we wouldn’t have issues now would we? We are different, meaning we have different morals that are built based on upbringing and personal experience. If we took a man/woman from Africa and brought them to the US where sacrificing children was immoral, would they be in the wrong or us? They may develop a form of fear/guilt out of being a minority or they may genuinely come towards a new revelation or stay at their current path.

Well according to some, being born again means having a baptism and trying to walk on eggshells from then on.

That’s exactly my point. The devil would be the abusive spouse in this equation. Would you really walk away from her, knowing that her abusive husband was walking a few steps behind you? But elevators can/do break and what about those who don’t have access to these elevators, they have to go it the hard way. A quote from MLK: “It’s all right to tell a man to lift himself by his own bootstraps, but it is cruel jest to say to a bootless man that he ought to lift himself by his own bootstraps.”

That’s like me getting on my kid (if I was to decide to have any), that they can’t do art because I’m an artist. “Oh come on dear, it’s not that hard. It’s just drawing a portrait.”

Darn you for reminding me on that. >.< You have a good point on that, plus you have the sadists, the masochists, the sadomasochists, etc.

Well that’s because they don’t want to rely on help. Some people don’t want to constantly be reminded of how weak they are. It’s like if I were to go up to an overweight person and say “Maybe you should go on a diet” or the massive amount of advertisements stating how overweight celebrities are losing weight. That’s cruel to put it in their face all the time. Even the blind can find their way around without help. I actually read an article of a blind man driving a car for 12 years and never getting into a wreck or pulled over (the only reason he got pulled over was because one of his tail lights went out).

Well what about those in isolated location who grew up away from your god? Some of those you can actually get away with because of police profiling and certain favor towards an individual (class, race, religion, pity, attraction, better thing to do).

As true as this is, that doesn’t usually happen in my family based on the strong bond we have. Believe me, not many of us make stupid mistakes or we try really hard not to.

The sacrifice of one man doesn’t equate to the lives of billions. The math doesn’t add up no matter how holy he is. Not trying to sound rude or anything.

I know. I put this thing in Word and it told me that your response is like an 18 page paper. XD

I did believe in the Jesus and the resurrection thing, but being tortured and revived doesn’t make a person feel better. I know that Jesus was as you said, but on a human level, that’s nuts. If someone dissected me with no anesthesia, killed me, and revived my corpse just to tell me I suffered to save cancer patients and lied about – I would be pissed. Now, if I had the cure for cancer or something and it was true, I would probably feel a bit better. Not everyone accepts this sacrifice. If someone said that I cured cancer and not everyone believed my sacrifice under all that pain, would I get mad? Not really. If the scientists get more credit than me, so be it. It depends. I can be very picky on the matter. I like details.

If you allow evil to exist in the first place, deal with the repercussions. It happens in jail anyways. My dad told me that he had to defend himself from men like that, or men that wanted to rape rapists because they think their evil. I’m not going to say an eye for an eye, but equivalent punishment for equivalent pain inflicted.

I surely wouldn’t do it. If I had to pick between risking my life to save the nice little girl or a greedy CEO from being hit by the truck, who do you think I’m saving? I don’t mind doing the right thing, especially if I live, but I don’t like sticking my neck out for someone who might cut it off either.

So if I sacrificed my life to save Bin Laden from being taken out by Obama’s mercenaries, would I be doing a good thing or be convicted for treason? I don’t mind helping someone who hates me so long as I don’t die.

Kind of knew you would say that.

That’s a matter of your biology working to defend itself. I’m not afraid to die, but I’d choose not to if I had the choice.

Which is how things work on this planet. We might let someone go or give them less time in jail for murder if they defend themselves or someone else, but to plot out the murder of one will probably get you a life sentence. Some ends justify the means.

I’m not saying that I have the right to define what is right and wrong, but I do have an opinion to it. Well that’s based on the Christian perspective; I believe that there is. I can say that it’s wrong to kill someone, but sometimes enough is enough and certain things have to be done to secure the safety of yourself and those you love. Look for the movie Enough, it has Jennifer Lopez in it. Do you think she did as wrong?

I’ve been known to be blunt and brutally honest. It’s a trait I appreciate, but I won’t go raging in a fit because my little cousin took a chocolate out of the jar on my drawer either. I’d simply say, “Ask next time.” or “Apologize.” Now if one is to simply make a lie that puts the country in a panic, then we have an issue.

I say that everyone has a trait that is admirable or respectable, but some people really haven’t earned it. I don’t disrespect anyone, but I’ll let it be known that you haven’t earned my genuine respect.

I can’t really comment on the sex thing since it doesn’t usually concern me. Just be safe and try not to get infected is usually my only care in the matter.

I say they can be controlled, but they shouldn’t be limited to heterosexuals either. It’s not a choice to be bisexual or homosexual. If god made this, then he shouldn’t have a complaint about men falling in love with men or women falling in love with women. Sexuality isn’t always about sex. Sexuality has become an identity.

I’m honest and people consider me an “inconsiderate ass” because I don’t feel that I should filter things to you when you ask my opinion. Does that make me a bad person to not sugar coat it so that it falls better on your ears?

Dude… O.o So if they ask and are denied, they should starve?

You can easily do most of them though. Everyone isn’t going to repent for telling a lie. If I told you a joke that I said happened, and it never did, is it so horrible that something in good humor should get me deduction points from getting into heaven? You can do gluttony too. If you’re invited to a feast, you may eat more than usual here. Is it wrong to enjoy the feast that’s been laid out for you?

It’s the end of someone’s life. You only get one. Some people have extreme phobias of death. Like I stated, death isn’t a big deal to me, but to some it is. Where you are put on the spot when your life is on the line do you sit there with the barrel between your eyes or do you try to run?

It’s the actions of the individuals, not god. They chose to go, but they give their desire to go or the love being placed in their heart to go to god. That doesn’t necessarily mean that he did it. I could go just because I feel bad for them and wish them the best.

You go right a head and envy them. I’m fine with being comfy in my house. And shouldn’t heaven be equal? Why should others deserve greater anything?

Well like I said in my silly example, if someone was beating on your door, trying to get away from ravenous freaks would you let them get their guts and brains ripped out? I

The one thing that I never get is, why is it that in heaven these sins are just wiped from our being. We have no desire to sin once up there.

In my perspective, yes. There is a degree in things.

He either goes full blown or not at all. All sin is considered equal in his eyes, which is not a good thing in my opinion.

People have a right to make a mistake. There’s a difference between “Oops, I took this from the store by mistake” and “Oops, I killed someone”. I don’t mind associating with bad people depending on motive and what they did.

Even though I agree, a rapist can still vary in degree. Some torture their victim, some kill their victims, and some are martial spouses that do it out of rage. Rape can vary, but I’d usually listen to the victim over the alleged rapist.

Which is what I would call a redeeming quality of hell. I get to remain myself.

Yes it is, but like I said crime should fit the punishment. Not eternal purgatory. I’m all for justice so long as it’s fair. Hell shouldn’t be a punishment.

I’d be happier if it applied to all and willing to take what I deserve.

Which is why I say do without religion or have it play less of a role. Things like certain commandments; I have no issue with it being a part of our judiciary branch. But your religion should not infringe on the rights, free will, or body of others – abortion, same sex marriage, medication, birth control, incest. Learn to leave people alone! Live and let live.

But extraterrestrial life isn’t spiritual. Humans don’t necessarily need to believe. Mostly to find out where they came from, what/who created, are we alone, or how did they get here. This curiosity is a main drive to make a person go to religion. Not trying to say people shouldn’t be curious, but certain religious rules, we can do without.

Not putting words in your mouth, but I’ve heard it too many times and I don’t want it coming up. -_- It’s reflex. Religions follow this trend, especially monotheistic ones. Which is why religion is flawed. There are 40,000 official branches of Christianity. Some accept Christ, some don’t. Who’s right? Then you have to remember you aren’t the only religion out there. As to whose morals are right. As far as the US is concerned, whoever holds the power.

It’s fine to have morality, but it will never be absolute. It changes with time for one thing. God’s morality is so set in stone that it refuses to flow with the current. Time changes things, whether people like it or not.

Which is why I can’t be a Christian any more. You don’t give any leniency towards those stuck between a rock and a hard place. I would never sit and watch my child die of starvation. No parent that loves their kid would sit back and watch them starve. I would kill if I had to. I wouldn’t want to, but I would. Don’t say you won’t do something unless you’ve been put in the situation. Other people have suffered for their religious beliefs. Just because you’re the majority doesn’t mean the percentile of the minority can’t overwhelm you. Witches have been burned at the stake because people didn’t understand their belief. Does that make it right? When you don’t understand something you tend to have a negative outlook until proven otherwise, and even then some people refuse to change their views to what’s in front of them.

So does everyone else. I may say that Jesus’s suffering is horrible, but that doesn’t mean his was any worse than anyone else. Just because you want to help someone who hates you doesn’t necessarily make you the better person. Yes, I remember.

Is it worth it to save ones life or the life of another? Depends on circumstance. I can never say until it actually happens.

I don’t expect to. If I do something wrong, then I’ll accept any punishment that comes with it.

I don’t mind answering, it just the situation doesn’t hold much relevance, but fine. The only reason I wouldn’t say yes is because it would change something within me, which I have an issue with. I wouldn’t mind it otherwise. Probe my brain if you please, but put everything back the way you found it.

Only difference between me accepting the judge over god is that in America we usually have a say in how certain things go. The government is supposed to be for the people, by the people.

But unlike church the strings attached are proven as fact. If you don’t go to school, you may not be able to do as you please or your life will become harder. You can look around and see the truth. Religion requires faith. I’m not saying deny them the right to church; just don’t give off the vibe that “hey if you quit Christianity, we’ll disown you”. Believe me it happens.

Not from what I can see.

I can admit when I’m wrong, but if you have the power of sway over someone’s life and you don’t do something about it… Ugh… I’m not going to say I’m right, not going to say I’m wrong.

You’d be surprised at how little I cared. Yeah, he shouldn’t be in there, but it’s life. I don’t usually like playing the blame game since it never really gets anyone anywhere, but most humans need a moment when they need a scapegoat.
But I wouldn’t want to hear that crap every day. It would get so annoying. I don’t usually care about praise. Thanks for acknowledging I did something for you, but I don’t need it everyday. Not from one of the church’s I’ve recently been to. It’s not wrong, but it gets complicated when you start putting rules out there that shouldn’t matter. Plus if he wanted all of us to love him, than he should have made perfect beings that couldn’t be tempted to stay in heaven and enjoy each other’s company. We would have all eternity to get to know each other.

I didn’t even mention hell this time. XD

That already happens. Artist experience art theft. Sure that it would suck, but if you are the only creator how can they take credit for making a living being. Unless it’s your parents. I don’t see how you can be jealous of an idol if it doesn’t even exist.

No one said he had to do it either. He has angels. Act like a manager and make shifts. That was the first that came to mind. Also, sloth has a broad definition.

Wrath doesn’t equal revenge. Punishment at the extent of anger. You shouldn’t have to wipe out cities either.

Then he should get rid of it because that is, by religious standing, a sin.

It’s not always the case. People are different by design.

There is a difference between living and existing. Existing is the state of not being dead. Living is doing something with that existence.

I could prevent them, but I cannot stop the desire. That is on him.

Good point.

A miracle, the things that are supposed to be his proof of his existence, aren’t important.

I say that death should be left to chance, not some deity. It’s like Russian roulette.

I have no issue with death, but I have an issue of what happens after death. I don’t fear heaven or hell, but some do. To put it bluntly it’s saying “Hey, guess what? You’re officially fucked!”

Because your beliefs aren’t everyone’s beliefs.

You’re free to vote as you please, but I don’t think that you should have the right to have a say over policies that interfere with another person.

(Refer to previous paragraph.)

Have you ever heard of Stockholm syndrome or battered wife syndrome?

Tell that to Gandhi, MLK, Malcolm X, and radicals.

Yeah. I’m a better driver and check my car a lot more now. :3 My brother should be the one who hears this more than me though. XD

Well some people think that they are god. What I mean by that is that the reason you are so close to god, that he understands you so well, that he knows when to intervene, that he’s with you at your darkest hour, is that he is you. Ugh, this is hard to explain. >.>;

Here it is. All twelve pages. I swear I think I beat my own writing record. Three hours!

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Xiao-Fury In reply to Berserkeroo [2012-12-09 14:34:53 +0000 UTC]

Can't even be proven... You speak as a fool.


That's because you lack faith and know nothing of the Holy Ghost.

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Berserkeroo In reply to Xiao-Fury [2012-12-10 23:34:53 +0000 UTC]

You are the one who speaks as a fool since you can't see what is clearly in front of you.

I was once a Christian so I know about the holy spirit and I'm not obligated to have faith in something that isn't even there.

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Xiao-Fury In reply to Berserkeroo [2012-12-10 23:35:45 +0000 UTC]

Then don't act all shock when you see Him on Judgment Day.

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Berserkeroo In reply to Xiao-Fury [2012-12-11 05:08:11 +0000 UTC]

It's fine with me. I'll wave to him and then go to hell where all the interesting people are.

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Xiao-Fury In reply to Berserkeroo [2012-12-11 05:12:46 +0000 UTC]

If that's what you want But you'll regret it. All the 'interesting people' are trying to escape from endless fire and torture, but to no avail.

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Mister-Haro In reply to Xiao-Fury [2013-01-13 02:18:59 +0000 UTC]

You do realize that, looking at it through agonistic terms, hell isn't real fire and torture, just shame. If anything the "endless fire and torture" bits came from Renaissance-era ideas shaped from Greco-Roman myth.

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Xiao-Fury In reply to Mister-Haro [2013-01-13 04:40:48 +0000 UTC]

You don realize that everybody is going to see God no matter what they believed while on earth, right?

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Mister-Haro In reply to Xiao-Fury [2013-01-13 06:26:03 +0000 UTC]

Of course I believe that.

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