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wilji1070 In reply to Freedim [2016-11-19 13:47:20 +0000 UTC]

As a guess, Custer likely died in the Great War and thus prevented the Barrel Roll Initiative from taking place. I would suspect that the Confederacy implemented their own version of it which would encircle Philadelphia. If Roosevelt was adamant in not surrendering, it's quite possible that Socialist revolutionaries would've killed the Bull Moose and his Vice President would negotiate a cease-fire in order to combat the new revolutionaries in the Union. At least, that's how Presbyterian Butcher describes it

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Freedim In reply to wilji1070 [2016-11-19 18:20:19 +0000 UTC]

I made a story about it which is on my page. In it, I envisioned the barrel roll offensive as basically being the analog of the German spring offensive.

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wilji1070 In reply to Freedim [2016-11-19 18:27:45 +0000 UTC]

Nice

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Breakfasttacos In reply to wilji1070 [2019-08-17 12:30:09 +0000 UTC]

I don’t even know that it has to be quite that complicated.  My impression from the books was that the CSA “Big Wheel” offensive to try driving through Philadelphia and enveloping, DC, Delaware, Maryland, and all the US forces within them came fairly close to working.  A bit like the real world Schleiffin Plan in that one or two things going differently, and the war is finished fairly early on.

Or the war goes on as normal, but the Entente wins in Europe early in say 1916 or 1917. Not to take anything away from the Ottomans, but time and again bad decisions and coordination in the Entente saved them from complete collapse.  The British commander in Mesopotamia wanted to wait until spring to push on and attack Baghdad, but London forced him to roll the dice in the fall trying to capture Mesopotamia before the war was out.  The army ends up besieged in Kit and eventually surrenders essentially undoing a year’s worth of work.  But even then the Russians were secure in Erzurum and likely could have captured Baghdad from the north which would have lifted the siege in Kut, saved the British army, and would have left the door open for a march through Anatolia come springtime.  Indeed St. Petersburg was sending their general orders to do just that, but he demured repeatedly and got away with it since he was on a secondary front.  Similarly, while Gallipoli was eventually settled on consideration had been given to trying to land on the Mediterranean coast in an area with a high Armenian population.  Armenian representatives in Alexandria had promised that they already had 50000 rifles smuggled into the area and as many men trained in their use.  Notice that in either of these scenarios the Russians get a chance to claim significant lands and a real tangible victory , and that may well have staged off the revolution.

all that is to say that all things being equal if there was a general Ottoman collapse earlier in the war the most logical place to send the massive British and Russian armies fighting them would have been the Salonica front across the Bosporus.  This itself would almost replicate what actually happened in real life in that a massive army was assembled in Salonica which through sheer numbers were more than the Austrians and Bulgarians could deal with.  Again as in real life once this front collapsed there would not be enough men or defenses between them and Vienna or indeed Germany itself to hold up an advance.  With Germany and Austria-Hungary brought to the table, it would be hard to imagine the US trying to stick the war out against the freed up British, French, and Russian armies.

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Breakfasttacos In reply to deadislandfan [2019-08-17 12:36:22 +0000 UTC]

More than anything I think it would make the map busy with the name of the country so close to Atlanta.

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MornofVivec In reply to Dyluthus [2014-07-06 13:56:51 +0000 UTC]

Look at it this way: Had the Confederacy won, it would have meant no Jake Featherston. I recall reading on the Turtledove Wiki that Turtledove initially planned the South to win and become more liberal, especially by giving credit to the black soldiers for the victory. Conversely, someone like Gordon McSweeney would rise up in the North, and USA would become more authoritarian.

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Dyluthus In reply to MornofVivec [2014-08-23 23:26:50 +0000 UTC]

Indeed MornofVivec the pieces in hindsight were indeed set for such an outcome. I've heard that theory before and having read the books I can easily believe that Mr. Turtledove had entertained the idea of a Southern Great War victory, yet I have a hard time imagining just how the Confederacy and Canada could have overcome the sheer industrial and population gap with the United States in that timeline. It would have been very interesting to know what Turtledove had in mind.

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CheeseburgerTom In reply to KantiaCartography [2014-02-07 17:30:47 +0000 UTC]

It always bugged me that the CSA bought two Mexican States for the explicit purpose of building a transcontinental railroad that didn't go to the Pacific Ocean.

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KantiaCartography In reply to CheeseburgerTom [2014-02-08 06:00:23 +0000 UTC]

I think that the Bay of California is arguably a part of the Pacific Ocean, but I see your point.

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BiggyGirlsLover In reply to HufflepuffBadger1978 [2014-04-02 09:54:03 +0000 UTC]

Of course not. Rumania was defeated in 1916 and Russia in 1917. So the Germans had the troops free for the western front. Italian hadn't made it either. They have lost at the Isonzo-River about 15 times hundreds of thousands soldiers. So they were going to loose too. So France and GB wouldn't had hold the western front line. And that is the reason, why the USA got in. Because if the Entende would have lost the war, all goods and money which had been send to the allies would had been lost for the the USA.

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XxStayXPositive In reply to Saint-Tepes [2012-12-05 23:10:51 +0000 UTC]

This was possibly the greatest comment I read today. You win.

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Saint-Tepes In reply to XxStayXPositive [2012-12-06 09:47:36 +0000 UTC]

Thanks

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AlternateHistory In reply to pete8680 [2012-11-29 19:58:41 +0000 UTC]

Based on the color, I'm figuring any plebescites are part of the USA.

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DXvsNWO1994 In reply to xDraconianKingx [2012-07-18 19:22:01 +0000 UTC]

Actually Turtledove had "supposedly" had originally planned on having the US (and Germany) loose World War 1 in the Timeline 191 Series with Gordon McSweeney becoming the "Adolf Hitler" of the US

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Saint-Walker In reply to DXvsNWO1994 [2012-11-24 23:20:55 +0000 UTC]

I never really saw how that would work, Featherston was a very talented demagogue who was believable in seizing the CSA with his brand charismatic madness. McSweeny was nowhere that good a speaker and seemed to aggravate everyone he met so unless he got someone as talented as Featherston I don't see him getting into Powel House. Same with the Catholic holocaust, the Mormons would be more believable, or the USA's more limited black population

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DXvsNWO1994 In reply to Saint-Walker [2012-11-25 00:17:16 +0000 UTC]

I agree, but again that was only his original plan (supposedly) so obviously he changed things around. I'm sure if he had decided to go with McSweeny as "The Dictator", he would have given more time to McSweeny, and the character would (obviously) be different because of that. But again that was just something I heard. I actually would be against that idea...The CSA Dictatorship is better

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AmongTheSatanic In reply to AlexDartois [2013-01-17 20:40:35 +0000 UTC]

I think it's the CSA's way of saying fuck you to West Virginia for betraying them back in the Civil War

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Breakfasttacos In reply to TomBombardier [2020-06-21 03:31:41 +0000 UTC]

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KantiaCartography In reply to Guyverman [2013-07-19 23:30:36 +0000 UTC]

Actually this map is from a book series, and the British and French forced the Confederates to free there slaves in the 1880s or so although there conditions were no better afterwards.

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AlexDartois In reply to Salnax [2011-09-22 05:46:24 +0000 UTC]

Umm, France was fairly badass in WW1.

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AmongTheSatanic In reply to AlexDartois [2013-01-17 20:41:19 +0000 UTC]

France lost three wars in a row ITTL.

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