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A father picks up his newspaper the morning after he buried his son, a Marine Corps Corporal. He found the front page dominated by a story about protesters thanking God for killing another soldier.The protester's justification? Their message is supported by scripture: God is punishing America for being tolerant of homosexuals and the death of soldiers is a welcome sign of God’s wrath.
How is a parent supposed to feel when their beloved child, who happened to be different, dies fighting to protect a people who's only response is “You’re going to hell!” and “God hates you!” ?
The claim in question today is "Homosexuality is morally wrong, because God says so." I disagree. A person's sexual orientation has nothing to do with morality.
Let's look at what parts of the Bible support this claim. A few sample translations from various publications include:
King James Version, first published in 1611: "Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind: it is abomination."
New International Version, first published in 1978: "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
New English Translation, first published in 2005: "You must not have sexual intercourse with a male as one has sexual intercourse with a woman; it is a detestable act."
-Leviticus 18:22
William Tyndale is commonly called the father of the English Bible. He completed the translation of the New Testament in 1526. In doing so, Tyndale introduced new words into the English language, such as: Jehovah, Passover, atonement and scapegoat.
The Roman Catholic Church protested. Tyndale's translation used words like 'overseer' instead of 'bishop,' 'elder' instead of 'priest,' 'congregation' instead of 'church' and 'love' instead of 'charity'.
Let's look at the definitions of these controversial words:
An 'overseer' is a person who keeps watch over and directs the work of others whereas a 'bishop' is a senior member of the Christian clergy who wields spiritual and administrative authority, even considered in some churches to be successors of the twelve Apostles of Christ.
An 'elder' is an older, influential member of a family, tribe, or community whereas a 'priest' is a member of the second grade of clergy ranking below a bishop but above a deacon and having authority to administer the sacraments.
A 'congregation' is an assemblage of people, animals or things collected together whereas a 'church' is a body of people who attend or belong to a place for public worship.
'Love' is a strong positive emotion of regard and affection whereas 'charity' is something given to help the needy.
The wording in traditional Roman Catholic readings tends towards the clergy's divine right to rule others, to mandate attendance to their sermons and towards giving monetary gifts for the support of the church. They twisted scripture to suit their needs.
However, for the sake of argument, let's suppose that all the various Leviticus 18:22 passages really do mean the same thing and that the message it wants to get across is that homosexuality is an undesirable trait. Leviticus 20:13 goes on to say that it is punishable by death, coincidentally the same punishment given to murderers. Some would agree with Robert T. Lee, the founder of the Society For the Practical Establishment and Perpetuation of the Ten Commandments. Robert says this implies that homosexuality is at least equal to the sin of murder and that all homosexuals should be regarded by every society to be just as much criminals as are murderers. If we take it that far, should every written law in the bible be enforced?
Lee says on his website, "Man has not been given the authority and power to define the nature of crime. That authority is rightfully reserved only by God. [...] Therefore it is God who can best define what is evil for man."
Let's take that idea and see where it goes:
"I do not let women teach. I do not let them have authority over men. They must be quiet." -1 Timothy 2: 12 (New International Reader's Version)
Does this mean that every woman in a position of authority should be fired and women in general striped of their right to vote?
"As for your male and female slaves whom you may have--you may acquire male and female slaves from the pagan nations that are around you. 'Then, too, it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain acquisition, and out of their families who are with you, whom they will have produced in your land; they also may become your possession." -Leviticus 25:44-45. (New American Standard Bible)
Does this give us permission to treat others as though they are less than human, even so far as to enslave them, simply because they are different?
"Withhold not from a youth chastisement, When thou smitest him with a rod he dieth not. Thou with a rod smitest him, And his soul from Sheol thou deliverest." - Proverbs 23:13-14 (Young's Literal Translation)
Does this mean that children should grow up thinking that violence is an acceptable form of conflict resolution?
One argument in defense of biblical law is that it is mainly passages from the Old Testament that promote slavery, sexism, child-abuse, and other vices now that were considered virtues in their day. When Jesus died on the cross, the believer's sins were covered by his blood which granted forgiveness and began a new covenant that made the laws of the old obsolete. This can be interpreted from Hebrews 8:8-13.
However, in Matthew 5: 17-18, Jesus says:
"Don't assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all things are accomplished." (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
Jesus basically explained that every single law in the Old Testament is still applicable and his teachings have no impact on their relevance. He even reiterates that yes, disobedient children should be put to death (Matthew 15:4-7). Even if you choose to ignore that passage, Jesus supposedly died two thousand years ago. Why is it that less than two hundred ago, in 1865 when Congress passed the 13th Amendment that abolished slavery, people were still quoting those same Old Testament scriptures to justify keeping their black slaves? One could argue that those people were misguided, that the Bible was written for a different time, when it was culturally acceptable to do those things; that the Old Testament is not used by Christians for laws we must live by, and is instead more of a history book. In that case, my argument that there are no moral grounds for condemning homosexuality still stands since the book in which it is prohibited, Leviticus, is from the Old Testament.
Others continue to justify their condemnation of homosexuals by pointing out that it is carried over to the New Testament:
"Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality, nor cheats, nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God." -1 Cor. 6:9-10, (Amplified Bible)
"Worse followed. Refusing to know God, they soon didn't know how to be human either—women didn't know how to be women, men didn't know how to be men. Sexually confused, they abused and defiled one another, women with women, men with men—all lust, no love. And then they paid for it, oh, how they paid for it—emptied of God and love, godless and loveless wretches." -Rom. 1:26-27, (The Message)
"We also know that the law is not made for good people but for those who are against the law and for those who refuse to follow it. It is for people who are against God and are sinful, who are unholy and ungodly, who kill their fathers and mothers, who murder, who take part in sexual sins, who have sexual relations with people of the same sex, who sell slaves, who tell lies, who speak falsely, and who do anything against the true teaching of God." -I Timothy 1:9-10, (New Century Version)
Now, it should be noted that all of these verses are excerpts from letters by the apostle Paul to their respective recipients. Before taking them at face value, listen to what the apostle Peter had to say about Paul's writings:
2 Peter 3:15-17 "You can be sure the long waiting of our Lord is part of His plan to save men from the punishment of sin. God gave our dear brother Paul the wisdom to write about this also. He wrote about these things in all of his writings. Some of these things are hard to understand. People who do not have much understanding and some who are not strong in the faith change the meaning of his letters. They do this to the other parts of the Holy Writings also. They are destroying themselves as they do this. And so, dear friends, now that you know this, watch so you will not be led away by the mistakes of these sinful people. Do not be moved by them." (New Life Version)
With this warning in mind, it should be noted that the very word 'homosexual' and phrases specifically referring to sex between people of the same gender for the previous condemning verses are NOT found in all Bible translations across the board.
Each translation reflects the world-view, beliefs, and mind set of its translators. Their personal biases distort their work. It is therefore no wonder that many have wished to know what the original text actually said. The National Gay Pentecostal Alliance (NGPA) has analyzed the Leviticus verse in great detail to produce a word-for-word translation of the original Hebrew. In English, with minimal punctuation added, they rendered it as: "And with a male thou shalt not lie down in beds of a woman; it is an abomination." That is, rather than forbidding homosexuality, it simply restricts where it can happen. This may seem like a strange prohibition to us today, but it was consistent with other laws in Leviticus which involve improper mixing of things that should be kept separate. Much of Leviticus deals with the "Levitical Holiness Code," a code of conduct that was part of a covenant that prohibited the children of Israel from participating in the religious rituals of the Canaanites once they entered the promised land. They were not to eat with, intermarry, worship with or in a similar manner to the Canaanites. They were to remain "holy" or set apart. In obeying this covenant, they would prove themselves to be God's chosen people.
Since women were thought to be unclean during certain times of month, they had beds of their own. Only her husband was permitted there, and then only for the purpose of having sex with her. Any other use of her bed would have been a defilement. An argument against this interpretation is that it would not go well with the next verse that discusses a man or a woman engaging in bestiality. However, in defense of the NGPA translation, there is already a break in topic between verses 21 and 22 which prohibits children being sacrificed to Molech. So a second break between verses 22 and 23 would not be unreasonable.
The seriousness of this crime in Hebrew eyes was made worse by the belief that 'to lie with a man as with a woman' violated the dignity of the male gender. Women were considered property but men were the direct image of God. To treat a man the way a woman was treated was to reduce him to property and, thus, to violate the image of God.
Those who thump their Bibles against the gay community complain that the scriptures which attack women, children and people of color are being taken out of context. In the case against homosexuality, I accuse these people of the same crime.
Religion is supposed to help people. How does condemning homosexuality help anyone? Is it because homosexual couples can't produce offspring? Today people are growing healthier and living longer due to modern technology. Infertile couples have the options of in-vitro fertilization, surrogacy, and adoption. With the world population estimated to have hit 7 billion people in the year 2012, humans are hardly in danger of dying out.
Is it because the AIDs epidemic started with homosexual men? Why should the victims be blamed? If every homosexual in the world turned straight overnight, would the AIDs virus cease to exist? Of course not. AIDs isn't caused by homosexuality, it isn't transmitted by casual contact with homosexuals, it isn't cured by sexual intercourse with a virgin, and it won't stop spreading until people are educated about it, learn to practice safe-sex, and stop sharing contaminated needles.
The senseless fear and hatred of homosexuals has to stop. Otherwise we will continue to hear about tragedies like the police officer who denied a gay man CPR, the young boy beaten to death on the mere suspicion of being gay, and the gay teenager struggling with social hostility and isolation who turns to suicide as a solution to their pain.
Today, laws against homosexuality still exist around the world. The punishments range from a fine and 3 years incarceration in Algeria to being put to death in places like Saudi Arabia. There currently exist groups here in the U.S. like the Traditional Values Coalition, Focus on the Family, and the American Family Association, that are dedicated to the promotion of anti-homosexual legislation: to prevent them from being a protected class against hate-crimes, from getting legally married, from adopting children or serving as foster parents, and even to deny their families health care.
As a country founded by people seeking to escape religious persecution, for having beliefs that differed from the norm, as a country that established a democracy proclaiming that "All men are created equal" why do we try so hard to make others conform to our personal way of life and scorn those who have the courage to stand their ground?
We need to give homosexuals the chance to live normal lives; to accept them for who they are without making them feel shame, guilt, or unworthiness; to address them and treat them in a civil manner and accord them their dignity; to give them back their unalienable rights guaranteed to them as human beings and under the United States Declaration of Independence, their rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Chief Justice Earl Warren presided in the 1967 Supreme Court case "Loving v. Virginia" involving an interracial couple, and he wrote: "The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."
I hope this provoked some thought, and that everyone will agree that there are no moral nor practical grounds to condemn homosexuality, that the biblical law is set to the standards of an out-dated code of conduct, and I hope that we learn, once again, that it is wrong to hate someone simply because they are different.
Related content
Comments: 1274
MissAloofLady In reply to ??? [2014-02-05 04:57:58 +0000 UTC]
opps I meant: if we can't agree or at least, can't agree to disagre, then I don't see any reason for me to continue to talk to them.
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Jabber-Wock In reply to ??? [2014-01-12 04:33:50 +0000 UTC]
I believe homosexuality is a sin, but we're all sinners. God loves homosexuals just as much as heterosexuals, and that should be all that matters.
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to Jabber-Wock [2014-01-12 17:00:02 +0000 UTC]
You're right. Sin is the act of violating the Abrahamic god's will, and the bible clearly states that said god disapproves of homosexuality. However, ancient Abrahamic laws are not what modern society bases it's morality on. Normal people do not and should not be ashamed of being in mutually consensual relationships with each other.
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licorishhh In reply to Andalitebandit-6 [2020-11-17 21:45:22 +0000 UTC]
Modern society also condones Facebook and Twitter banning someone for saying "I love Jesus," and a woman hitting a 12 year old boy because he was wearing a Trump hat. If you ask me, modern society doesn't have many morals left.
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GamziMakr In reply to ??? [2013-11-17 04:24:01 +0000 UTC]
While I believe any sexual activity outside of marriage is sinful, it's not my place to judge others. Bullying is wrong, 100% of the time. It would be better if people on both sides of this issue could be more civil.
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to GamziMakr [2013-11-17 20:22:45 +0000 UTC]
Well behaved people seldom make history. If homosexuals are to be true equals among their peers, they must fight for the rights denied to them by the heterosexual majority.
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GamziMakr In reply to Andalitebandit-6 [2013-11-17 20:54:50 +0000 UTC]
Homosexuals who want marriage to be redefined couldn't do it without the support of all those heterosexuals.
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to GamziMakr [2013-11-17 23:35:05 +0000 UTC]
Your point is? They're not fighting against the ones helping them, they're fighting against the ones making legislation like Proposition 8, in which marriage is legally defined as the union between one man and one woman. You think the law would be repealed if they just asked nicely?
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GamziMakr In reply to Andalitebandit-6 [2013-11-18 00:02:20 +0000 UTC]
"If homosexuals are to be true equals among their peers, they must fight for the rights denied to them by the heterosexual majority."
I thought you were saying here that homosexuals are fighting against the heterosexual majority, meaning (I thought) all heterosexuals. But I don't think you would say that, so my point is moot. X)
Well, I rarely see a SSM-proponent describe Prop 8 for what it actually is instead of naming a list of things they think it is but really aren't. Do you usually talk about SSM with such a calm and collected tone?
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to GamziMakr [2013-11-18 21:49:58 +0000 UTC]
Proposition 8 consisted of two sections. Its full text was:
Section I. Title
Section 2. Article I. Section 7.5 is added to the California Constitution, to read:
Sec. 7.5. Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.Explain to me how you believe everyone's getting the wrong idea?
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GamziMakr In reply to Andalitebandit-6 [2013-11-18 23:04:34 +0000 UTC]
It seems to me that most people, when they talk about Prop 8, speak as if it's as bad as how homosexuals were treated in the Holocaust. I recognize that same sex marriage is a very heated issue for people, but it would do well for everyone to be realistic and honest about it. California already provided the same rights to same sex couples under a civil union as they did married couples. Because of previous Supreme Court cases, the Californian law requires civil unions to be treated the same as marriages. The only difference is that they called one a "civil union" and one "marriage". I know that just isn't good enough for most same sex couples, and the Left loves to call it "separate but equal", but it's not. It's just a different definition. Now Prop 8 had forced same sex couples or homosexuals to use different water fountains or restrooms as married couples or heterosexuals, then we'd have a problem. I mean, if marriage is "just a piece of paper", when same sex couples already receive the same things married couples do, why is it so big of a deal that they receive the same piece of paper as opposite sex couples do?
The real problem here is that democracy is being overturned in favor of the opinion of an oligarchy. Time and time again, the people of California voted that marriage is between a man and a woman. And time and time again, government and courts slapped them in face and said, "You're too stupid to know anything. WE, the government, knows what's best for you." We know eventually CA's population will change as to support SSM. Why can't this happen as a result of democracy instead of tyranny?
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to GamziMakr [2013-11-19 02:00:22 +0000 UTC]
I grant you that some people go overboard with how bad it is. However, I'd say Prop 8 is merely a symptom of a bigger problem, and not the basis of it. I mentioned in my essay that there currently exist groups here in the U.S. like the Traditional Values Coalition, Focus on the Family, and the American Family Association, that are dedicated to the promotion of anti-homosexual legislation: to prevent them from being a protected class against hate-crimes, from getting legally married, from adopting children or serving as foster parents, and even to deny their families health care. And those are just to name a few.
How do you propose these organizations be dealt with, if at all?
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GamziMakr In reply to Andalitebandit-6 [2013-11-19 03:25:20 +0000 UTC]
They do on both sides. I wish I could bring clarity to them all about it.
I'm not polarized. There should be legislation that criminalizes hate-crimes against people with same sex attraction. There should be no violence against anybody. People are going to say that gays are evil and dirty and stuff like that, but if they start saying that gays need to die, then we've got something that can turn into violence. One must find a balance between allowing freedom of speech and punishing pure hate-speech. I would prefer people don't go around bad-mouthing people simply because they have same sex attraction.
I'm for the traditional definition of marriage, but I am not explicitly against the government granting privileges like tax breaks to same sex couples. The inner libertarian in me says "Tax breaks = good!" If a government (hopefully by virtue of democracy) says that same sex couples are allowed to adopt children, then that's the law. I would rather the children be raised by loving mother and father, but if there's nothing I can do about that, then why would I want to take away healthcare from that family? It gets very complex right here, but if a same sex couple has adopted children, then they shouldn't be denied programs like medicaid simply because they're not a traditional father-mother family. If we're going to be giving Medicaid to children with a father and mother, then we should give Medicaid to children with two fathers and two mothers.
I feel that children would best grow in a home with a loving father and mother. I don't doubt that some people with same sex attraction have what it takes to raise children; that ability is not really determined by the sexual attraction they have. This is probably what seems most radical to you, unfortunately. I can't really control that children have to grow up in homes where the parents divorced because they lacked the pertinacity to keep it together or where they married irresponsibly. I can't control that people have sex willy-nilly and when they get pregnant they just give it up. If I can have any bit of say on where children can go to be adopted, I would say it's a home where there is a loving father and mother, married. A father and a mother both bring something the child needs. This is another part of the issue, which we can discuss if you like.
I know that marriage will eventually be redefined to include same sex couples. I don't like that, but what really makes me nervous is when that happens, people who still hold traditional values will be punished by the government. For example, a photographer respectfully declines a same sex couple's request to photograph at their wedding. Say the guy's name is John. John doesn't decline because he hates homosexuals, he does so because he would feel uncomfortable photographing a wedding like that when he personally feels is wrong. Heck, he could have even voted for SSM just so he could say, "I gave you the right to marry. I leave you alone, now you leave me alone." or something to that effect. He refers the couple to another photographer who would be more than willing to take pictures at their wedding. Is he in the wrong here? Doesn't he still have his right to decline business if it interferes with his personal beliefs? I would say that he has that right. But this hypothetical same sex couple would not take any of it. They don't care that John gives them the information for a photographer who would be happy to do the job. And they certainly don't want some "homophobe" to photograph their wedding either, would they? No, instead they want to get the government to punish John simply because he believes what he believes. They sue him for discrimination. They want him to suffer for his beliefs.
Now, you seem like a reasonable individual. SSM-proponents often like to use the argument "It's not your life. Mind your own business" in favor of SSM. Isn't this hypothetical same sex couple betraying that very ideal? WHY can't they just call another stinking photographer? Why can't they say "live and let live", and hire another person to do that job? If same sex marriage is legal in a state, then that probably means there's going to be a professional photographer somewhere that prides him or herself in the fact that she is pro-SSM and would be delighted to photograph a same sex wedding. It's not like John is going to miss the fact that it's a same sex wedding they're having, and say yes up until the very date and suddenly say, "Wait, same sex marriage? Count me out!" Surely, these two parties can get what they want without getting the government to slap people with penalties? After all, if they can punish an individual or a business for not complying with a same sex marriage because of their religious beliefs, then what's to stop them from punishing a religion for not holding a same sex wedding because of that religion's religious beliefs?
This hypothetical situation has happened before. Many other possible situations. I know I can't stop SSM from being legalized, but I hope I can convince people that if it's going to be that way, then people's religious liberties can be preserved as well. It doesn't have to be "them vs us".
I'm very eager to hear your response.
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to GamziMakr [2013-11-19 08:58:05 +0000 UTC]
I see you hold no ill-will to homosexuals. However, that was not my question. How should the organizations that hold them in contempt be dealt with? They are the ones who are actively fundraising, lobbying, and pushing for legislation that slaps an unmistakable "Heteros Only" sign on medical care plans, adoption agencies, and government jobs. Should those organizations be allowed to continue doing as they please? Should no one speak up against them? Should their activities be protected under the right to 'freedom of expression'?
Regarding the 'perfect' family situation, I agree that two parents are better than one, but I also think that one is also better than none. The need for adoptive parents is so great that many agencies are facilitating single adults to adopt. The sexual orientation of the parents is a moot point as far as I'm concerned. What happens to those orphans who never get adopted because potential adoptees were turned away based on arbitrary discriminatory factors? What happens is those children age out of the system, never knowing the love or support of either a father or a mother. Over 40% of the foster children who age out in America end up homeless. Only 20 % graduate high school with a diploma or GED and only 27% of those go on to college. If they are lucky they know someone who can tell them how to get food assistance so they don't starve. A lot of them turn to crime, prostitution, gangs, ect just to try to survive. The Australian Study of Child Health in Same-Sex Families collected data on 500 children nationwide, up to the age of 17, found that there was no statistical difference between children of same-sex couples and the rest of the population on indicators including self-esteem, emotional behavior and the amount of time spent with parents.
Regarding your hypothetical situation with the photographer, the answer is no. He does not have his right to decline business if it interferes with his personal beliefs. Businesses DO have the right to refuse service, but it depends on the circumstances. The Federal Civil Rights Act guarantees all people the right to "full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the ground of race, color, religion, or national origin."
The question regarding whether or not the business is justified in refusing service depends on whether the business's refusal of service was arbitrary, or whether the business had a specific interest in refusing service. For example, a California court voted against a motorcycle club accusing a sports bar of discrimination that had denied members admission to the bar because they refused to remove their "colors," or patches, which signified club membership. The court held that the bar was justified to protect their legitimate business interest in preventing fights between rival club members.
On the other hand, a California court voted in favor of a gay couple accusing a restaurant owner of discrimination when he refused to seat them in a semi-private booth reserved for opposite sex couples. There was no legitimate business reason for the refusal of service, and so the discrimination was arbitrary and unlawful.
In your hypothetical, what legitimate business interest would be served when the shop owner is acting on his arbitrary opinion that he finds his clients icky?
Anti-discrimination laws in matters of public accommodations always create a conflict between the ideal of equality and individual rights. Does the guaranteed right to public access mean the business owner's private right to exclude is violated? For the most part, courts have decided that the constitutional interest in providing equal access to public accommodations outweighs the individual liberties involved.
And now I feed your own words back to you. I rarely see a SSM-opponent describe SSM for what it actually is instead of naming a list of things they think it is but really aren't. In this case, churches are well within their rights to change their bylaws to clarify that they won't be blessing same-sex unions. The extension of civil marriage rights to same-sex couples has never posed a threat to churches' right not to perform same-sex weddings. The Supreme Courts supports this: "Requiring a church to accept or retain an unwanted minister, or punishing a church for failing to do so, intrudes upon more than a mere employment decision," wrote Chief Justice John Roberts on behalf of the entire Court. "By imposing an unwanted minister, the state infringes the Free Exercise Clause, which protects a religious group's right to shape its own faith and mission through its appointments."
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FireBay In reply to ??? [2013-11-12 19:03:41 +0000 UTC]
you, Miss, are the VERY best.
and for me, about homosexuality, since i am a Muslim, my parents ,or any family member, try to not bring up the topic, thinking if they did, we would be gay, or have sinful knowledge..send us to hell and other stuff
which was bullcrap, actually, for me, homosexuality is...is ...normal, but more i got into it, the more i know about it, and reading the RIGHT AND TRUE FACTS (like yours)
so, thank you!! and thank you for posting up your hardwork for everyone to see!
sadly, if my tell my parents or anybody from my area, they'll consider me "satanist" etc etc you can guess, but whats right and true, you have to follow it...
also, the fact that having such sexual orientation "WONT EFFECT OTHERS OR YOUR OWN LIFE" being gay wont make you kill people or molest children, literally, judge people on their characters and actions, not for whom they are.
some times i think, following any certain religion, its better not to follow any, and follow the right and obvious facts...simplifying life right on my door steps! and if I go to hell when i die, I wont even give a damn and blame the very creator to fill his holes and flaws in his teachings...literally.....
dude of you send a book, AND THE MIGHTY CREATOR, you cant protect a single book form being changed or couldn't right in SIMPLE WORDS and causing diversity so many loop holes
sorry for going off topic
all in all, GREAT INFO, I HAD FUN READING THIS....too bad it was mostly directed towards Christians , but, meh, at least i got the message
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to FireBay [2013-11-13 08:46:16 +0000 UTC]
Wow, thank you for the long and thorough comment! I understand, my father also thinks that way about gays, and often will say that all gays should be killed... I ignore him because I know we will only fight but he will not change his mind.
I also think that religion does not matter. It only matters if you are a good person and do good deeds.
Yes, I wrote this mainly for Christians because I live in the United States, a place where 83% of the people are Christian. I have more to say about homosexuality, about people who are not religious that think homosexuality will destroy the human race, but my essay is already very long xD
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IrkenConfederate In reply to ??? [2013-11-02 23:38:14 +0000 UTC]
Wow. Really incredible work here! I've never read such a well-researched document on the subject of homosexuality. I say again: well done!
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to IrkenConfederate [2013-11-03 20:21:02 +0000 UTC]
Thank you! It's gone through a lot of revisions to get it polished to this point, and I'm glad it still impresses people 5 years later ^_^
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wingedblue In reply to ??? [2013-10-10 06:34:08 +0000 UTC]
This was a great read I was wondering--for a school project, I have to write responses to two essays, so I was wondering if I could use this essay?
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to wingedblue [2013-10-10 16:06:31 +0000 UTC]
Of course! I'd also love to read your response to it ^_^
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SaintHeartwing In reply to ??? [2013-10-05 17:37:42 +0000 UTC]
....dammit. This is so well researched and examined I've no choice! I HAVE to favorite it!
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to SaintHeartwing [2013-10-05 18:40:23 +0000 UTC]
Thanks! I had wanted to pick homosexuality for my topic during my speech class, but got stuck with the insanity plea instead. The guy who argued in favor of homosexuality did such a poor job though, that when it came time to vote who the better debater was, I had to vote for the other guy >: That pissed me off so much I HAD to write this! *w*
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SaintHeartwing In reply to Andalitebandit-6 [2013-10-05 19:06:50 +0000 UTC]
Understandable. I felt the same way when I saw someone laughably try to argue Leviticus as for why God hates homosexuals. Leviticus is a collection of laws Moses is giving to the future clergy of the Jewish people in Canaan and Deuteronomy, which also whines about gay people, is a speech given by Moses that's trying to inspire his people and to warn them away from engaging in the type of behavior they'd seen in the Canaanites. It's not like the Ten Commandments, which were meant to stay with all Jewish people forever. Moses was being very specific about a very specific circumstance. But hey, it just sounds more impressive to take crap out of context and quote it like it means something because that's how ALL pundits do things nowadays.
I'd wager most people couldn't even tell you what half the Commandmants are unless they saw the Charlton Heston movie.
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silversongwriter In reply to SaintHeartwing [2014-03-31 05:57:32 +0000 UTC]
You know the NT condemns it right?
Romans 1:26
1 Corinthians 6:9
1 Timothy 1:10
Explain these
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SaintHeartwing In reply to silversongwriter [2014-03-31 09:16:29 +0000 UTC]
Letters from Paul, not Christ. Less important and with no appreciation for historical context.
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silversongwriter In reply to SaintHeartwing [2014-03-31 21:14:47 +0000 UTC]
Do you hear yourself? Are you telling me the things that Paul, an apostle, wrote don't matter? That's just silly. He recieved revelation from heaven
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SaintHeartwing In reply to silversongwriter [2014-03-31 21:31:20 +0000 UTC]
The problem is Paul CLASHED with the brother of Jesus, James, who led the apostles after Jesus died. Not to mention this little thing: Jews associated homosexual behavior with the rampant and out of control sexuality of the cities that had persecuted their kind: Sodom and Gomorrah. So they wouldn't have a lot of good things to say about gay people. But even then, it's not from Jesus nor from God, so it's not quite as important.
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silversongwriter In reply to SaintHeartwing [2014-04-01 03:20:26 +0000 UTC]
When did Paul and James differ in their message?
Yahuwshuwah condemend fornication, did he not. "Fornication" is "Sexual immorality" when you translate.
Sexual immorality of any kind. So whenever fornication is condemned, homosexuality is too.
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SaintHeartwing In reply to silversongwriter [2014-04-01 12:03:22 +0000 UTC]
James had confronted Paul and saying that Paul had been teaching believers to "forsake Moses" and "not circumcise their children or observe the customs (of the law)". It's in Acts. Not to mention he didn't LIKE James. Even if the gospel came from Heaven itself, Paul wrote, ignore it, he remarked in Galatians 1:8. "Be imitators of ME, as I am of Christ", he writes in Corinthians 11:1.
Also, sex is actually a holy act. It's what marriage is for, after all. It is a union of two bodies into one. But even if you don't agree with homosexual behavior, I would think telling them they should be married would solve this, because then they cease to be two separate entities and are united under God's eyes. Marriage makes sex acceptable.
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silversongwriter In reply to SaintHeartwing [2014-04-03 17:18:17 +0000 UTC]
Rom. 2:14-15 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them
Rom. 6:14 -15: “For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!”
Rom. 8:2-4: “For the law of the Spirit of life in Yahuwshuwah HaMashiach has set you free from the law of sin and of death For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, Yahuwah{did:} sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and {as an offering} for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”
I know we arne't under the law. We are under the righteousness of the law. The law is written in out hearts. So the MORAL laws of the OT and NT are to be followed. Not all the laws in the OT were moral laws, but homosexuality was one of them.
And homosexuality is condemend in the NT. Also, what makes you think the most high will recognize gay marriage if he declared it a sin in both the Old and New testament? You think he cares what this legal system says?
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SaintHeartwing In reply to silversongwriter [2014-04-03 17:33:44 +0000 UTC]
The law's written in our hearts...but how do you know who's moral compass is better and who's isn't? Therein is the tricky part. Also, homosexuality only ever gets mentioned by Paul. Jesus didn't say anything about being gay. Not to mention he ignored the old testament means via Moses on divorce if you'll remember.
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to SaintHeartwing [2013-10-06 06:14:43 +0000 UTC]
That's so true! I love teasing people with this question:
Me: Would you agree that the Ten Commandments are laws everyone should live by?
Random Person: Yes, of course!
Me: Can you list them?
RP: Uh.... don't steal... don't kill... don't covet... uhhhhh -brain explodes-
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Myrethy In reply to ??? [2013-09-25 15:44:05 +0000 UTC]
OOOOH I found a loophole!
"Thou shall not lay with a man as with a woman." Shall I interpret the 'as with a woman' to mean 'in the same manner in which one would lie with a woman'? Considering that it is physically impossible for a man and a man to engage in sexual acts in the exact same fashion as a man and a woman-there's a difference in, ah, biological components, after all-then no man ever lies with a man as with a woman.
Is my logic flawed? I understand the implied meaning of the scripture, but you know, if we're being technical, there's nothing wrong with homosexuality.
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to Myrethy [2013-09-25 23:25:18 +0000 UTC]
It's a little flawed. There are men who manage to convince their wives to *ahem* turn the other cheek and switch entry points. But that's besides the point.
I think a better argument regarding technicality would be to question why the most sexually sensitive part of a man (his prostate gland) is located deep in the recesses of his anus, and reachable only by anal sex ;D
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IrkenConfederate In reply to Andalitebandit-6 [2013-11-02 23:41:35 +0000 UTC]
Also, your definition of "man" can reshape the argument entirely. Do you consider a transsexual man a man? What of a transsexual woman? Or someone who's transgender?
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Myrethy In reply to Andalitebandit-6 [2013-09-26 01:47:11 +0000 UTC]
You have a good point there in the second paragraph... I was just poking at technicalities because I'm like that.
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DyingMarshmallows In reply to ??? [2013-09-08 23:00:07 +0000 UTC]
:iconsuperbrillantplz:OMFG. BRILLIANT! Seriously this was awesome.
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to DyingMarshmallows [2013-09-09 16:22:27 +0000 UTC]
Thanks for the comment! This essay is OLD, but sadly, still relevant today =w=;
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roleplay4life In reply to ??? [2013-07-17 04:18:12 +0000 UTC]
I really like this, and I'll tell you why.
For the past twenty years (i.e. since I was born) I've gone to a United Methodist church in what has historically been a very conservative state. My church's music minister has been a part of my life and so much more than a clergyperson - he's been a friend, a guide, a teacher, and more or less like family to me. And when I found out a few years ago that he was gay, I... Well, honestly, I thought nothing of it.
But I know there are people on my congregation who would think something of it. And despite the fact that he is - in my mind - is a blessing from God himself to this world, there are those who would disagree just because he fell in love with a man instead of a woman.
People can argue all day about the historical context, about how "homosexuality is damaging our society", about how it's "unnatural", but at the end of the day, I wonder how much that really matters. In a world where we have so much killing and warfare, what's so wrong with a little love - or a lot of love, for that matter?
I loved how you said how the Bible has been used since its creation to defend any number of heinous acts - sexism, racism, slavery, warfare... But at the end of the day, I think God's given each of us a conscience that speaks louder than a text which has been translated and retranslated so many times, and the question I think we all face is how we choose to use that. Do we spread a message of love and hope and open-mindedness, or of intolerance and hatred?
I and a few of my peers once stood in front of about 200 pastors at a statewide conference and told them how we could not claim "Open Hearts, Open Minds, Open Doors" (the mission statement of the United Methodist Church) if we were going to be exclusive. Not everyone in that room agreed, but sometimes you just have to have the courage to speak up for what you believe in. That is, after all, what Jesus did.
How's that saying go? "What would Jesus do?" I'd just say that's some food for thought for folks like the Westboro Baptist Church.
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to roleplay4life [2013-07-17 19:32:42 +0000 UTC]
Wow, I can see this provoked a lot of thought! I'm glad you were able to look past your music minister's preferences and continue to see him as a human being worthy of love and respect. I'm also happy to hear that you and your friends were brave enough to stand up for homosexuals in front of so many authority figures!
I would caution against using the WWJD slogan with Westboro though. There are a few instances in the Bible where Jesus behaves in a less-than-saintly manner. Some examples that come to mind are the time when he fashioned a scourge (a multi-thong whip used to inflict severe corporal punishment) to drive out the money lenders in the church, and the time he cursed a fig tree for not bearing fruit, even though it was out of season.
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to masterofsteam [2013-07-08 04:19:34 +0000 UTC]
I worked hard on it :3 Thanks for the comment and fave <3
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Prettykitty473 In reply to ??? [2013-06-10 03:25:59 +0000 UTC]
I must say, you did a fantastic job with this. I honestly hope some religious homophobes read this.
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silversongwriter In reply to Prettykitty473 [2014-03-31 05:54:49 +0000 UTC]
I've read this and I know it's wrong. I can disprove all this stuff.
The Greek word for "abusers of themselves with mankind" is refering to male homosexuality. All you gotta do is combine the roots and you'll see it.
www.blueletterbible.org/lang/l…
Romans 1:26
1 Corinthians 6:9
1 Timothy 1:10
Explain these
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to Prettykitty473 [2013-06-10 06:21:26 +0000 UTC]
Thank you very much! Though people that are homophone for religious reasons usually avoid anything containing logic and reason xD
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Prettykitty473 In reply to Andalitebandit-6 [2013-06-10 13:56:35 +0000 UTC]
Eh... So true. They say that "God has his ways" and refuses to further upon the subject....
Those are the people I avoid in life: the closed-minded and the overly religious.
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Scarecrow113 In reply to ??? [2013-06-09 18:08:37 +0000 UTC]
All men are created equal never meant that. It basically meant, in context, "all white males who own land are equal".
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Andalitebandit-6 In reply to Scarecrow113 [2013-06-10 06:20:17 +0000 UTC]
True, however, the Declaration of Independence is considered a "living document" meaning it is not set in stone. If the original intent was never meant to be altered, then the founding fathers would not have included the Bill of Rights that allows amendments to be made according to the evolving ethics and morals of the American people.
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Scarecrow113 In reply to Andalitebandit-6 [2013-06-10 12:09:23 +0000 UTC]
Yeah, I know, I'm just saying
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