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Whatevergoes21 In reply to Whatevergoes21 [2019-08-06 04:36:45 +0000 UTC]

And I’m also sad to see that the ONE Z fighter wanted a family more than anything never got one. He even said during his desert bandit days that he wanted to use the Dragon balls to get over his fear of women so he could get married one day! A wholesome wish if I do say so myself!

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Aremke In reply to SaiyanPrince541 [2015-08-19 16:22:10 +0000 UTC]

You completely missed the point of the joke, but thanks.

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tea78iscool In reply to Aremke [2018-11-19 13:04:04 +0000 UTC]

I like Vegeta and I like yamcha. I live yamchax bulma. And I like vegeta x bulma.  But I hate those yamcha bashers shudders . I hate it when Vegeta x bulma fans bash poor Yamcha....

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SaiyanPrince541 In reply to Aremke [2015-08-19 17:45:23 +0000 UTC]

Hidden by Commenter

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Aremke In reply to SaiyanPrince541 [2015-08-20 01:01:31 +0000 UTC]

No, I wasn't, but I'm about to start due to this type of rage-filled, accusatory, hyper-reactionary commentary being thrown out there.

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draw2much In reply to Aremke [2015-08-20 01:34:08 +0000 UTC]

Now now now... you shouldn't let someone with no sense of humor get to you. Show them pity instead. Imagine what a sad life they have, commenting on a 5 year old comic and not even getting the joke... so very sad.

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Aremke In reply to draw2much [2015-08-20 02:11:41 +0000 UTC]

*facepalm*

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MagicalKeyPizzaDan In reply to EmoNerdFTW [2013-09-22 06:51:35 +0000 UTC]

i know right the fat chicks got in my nerves for bashing on yamcha and made so many of sonic the hedgehog

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Whatevergoes21 In reply to tranki-zieleniack [2021-07-07 01:36:40 +0000 UTC]

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rulkout1993 In reply to tranki-zieleniack [2010-12-04 08:37:49 +0000 UTC]

So, what your saying is....Bulma is the one who cheated on Yamcha, not the other way around isn't it?

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ImperialWrath In reply to rulkout1993 [2017-08-19 22:18:04 +0000 UTC]

I know this is an old comment, but yes I've always thought that was the more likely scenario. Outside of filler, almost NEVER see any depictions of Yamcha paying attention to any other girls/women other than Bulma. But we do see PLENTY of scenes, even in Kai, of her either attempting to flirt with other, strange men (Zarbon) or fantasizing over familiar, but married men (Goku), both of which happened while she was on Namek and Yamcha was dead. I find it ironic that during her time on Namek, she never once appeared to think about Yamcha unless she was comparing him to some other man.

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tranki-zieleniack In reply to rulkout1993 [2010-12-04 21:56:59 +0000 UTC]

yes, that was Bulma who was cheating and it was clearly visible in the anime!!!!

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rulkout1993 In reply to tranki-zieleniack [2010-12-04 22:05:29 +0000 UTC]

Damn. Well, if she's happy with Vegeta, who cares?

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tranki-zieleniack In reply to rulkout1993 [2010-12-07 12:32:24 +0000 UTC]

That's okay that she is happy with Vegeta. But it's not ok that people think that Yamcha was guilty.

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SaiyanPrince541 In reply to tranki-zieleniack [2014-11-13 07:31:28 +0000 UTC]

From Future Bulma's character, I doubt she'd tell Trunks that, unless she knew it was a fact. If it was based on mere suspicion, she'd tell Trunks that she "believed" Yamcha was cheating, but she said it as an outright fact.

My guess is that Yamcha probably saw how Bulma always cozied up to Vegeta and got sick of it and so found comfort elsewhere... Thus they ended up breaking up and she ended up with Vegeta... That's a fair assumption - I just hate excessive Yamcha hate and Bulma hate on both ends, I prefer to keep a more biased/middle-ground view.

Bottom line is, Bulma/Yamcha never really worked IMO - Bulma basically whipped him around as she pleased. Bulma/Vegeta is a great relationship though - two prideful, persistent, hard-asses, who love a challenge.

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ImperialWrath In reply to SaiyanPrince541 [2017-08-19 22:33:38 +0000 UTC]

To your guess on Yamcha, I agree that would be a fair assumption. Except that Toriyama has religiously stated that Yamcha still has his fear/nervousness of women other Bulma. So if we assume that the same might have applied to the Yamcha who existed in Future Trunks' time line, then that throws a major wrench in your theory that Yamcha hooked up with a random woman to get back at Bulma for her clear obsession with Vegeta.

While I usually don't mind middle-ground view in most cases, I do think that there are some where you have to pick a side. And in the Yamcha/Bulma thing, I tend to side with Yamcha, simply for the mere fact that it was frequently displayed in both anime and manga that Bulma not only had a penchant for blowing things out of proportion when it came to her relationship with Yamcha, but that she also frequently flirted with or fantasized about other men. Outside of filler, there were hardly ever any instances of Yamcha engaging in inappropriate behavior. 

I've also always disagreed with the notion that Bulma & Vegeta are a great relationship. I think if we were honest, many of us would admit that in a more real-world scenario those two would be toxic for one another. Their prideful and spoiled demeanor would constantly see them clash heads, and ultimately serve to drive them apart rather than bring them together. Most fans tend to think that the couple are great simply because they had a kid and were able to come together and make it work, but I think that's more because Bulma probably mellowed out a lot once she had a kid to think about. Had it not been for the oops-baby that is Trunks, I doubt these two would've ever worked out, much less tried to establish any sort of legitimate relationship.

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SaiyanPrince541 In reply to ImperialWrath [2017-08-26 16:07:44 +0000 UTC]

I've seen Toriyama's interviews and yes, he did say that Yamcha's shy around women in general, but didn't say "women other than Bulma". Even in the manga, we see him standing or sitting next to Chi-Chi at times and he doesn't act all awkward/idiotic, so I doubt he literally gets thunderstruck whenever a woman's near him. He's just shy and doesn't know how to act... I'm kind of like that myself, truth be told, but that doesn't make me immune to mistakes or cheating (not that I would).

Yes, Bulma was a little paranoid and jealous, when it came to Yamcha's fangirls, but she never outright accused him of cheating, until "Future Trunks'" revelation, meaning that despite being a little jealous at times, she doesn't throw slanderous accusations around, just for fun (especially since Toriyama confirms the accusations). And I wasn't really claiming that Yamcha was trying get back at Bulma, by flinging with other girls. More like, he was seeking comfort elsewhere, because he couldn't find it in Bulma any longer (since she was housing and getting all chummy with Vegeta, the guy that indirectly killed him xD).

Quite the contrary, I remember a personality test conducted sometime on tumblr, where Bulma/Vegeta's personalities were matched together and they fit perfectly... Don't have the exact link, cause it was a while ago. It's not just about the prideful and spoiled demeanor for me (though that is funny at times), but also Vegeta's dark history and need for redemption, analogous with Bulma's desire for true love (which she didn't find in Yamcha).

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ImperialWrath In reply to SaiyanPrince541 [2017-08-31 21:20:30 +0000 UTC]

The thing about your example given is that women like Chi Chi and #18, who he's overly familiar with, aren't even remotely the same as a random woman he meets out in public. For one, he's known Chi Chi, and to a lesser degree #18, for a very long time, so he's had years to get used to being around them. Compare how he reacts to Chi Chi in Z, and how he reacted to her back in her first appearance in DB, and his reaction to her was much more in line with how he reacts to other women he doesn't know. There's a familiarity there, in other words. Also, there's the whole thing of Chi Chi and #18 being attached to men who he knows and considers friends, i.e. Goku and Krillin. And Yamcha is obviously not the type of guy who would go after the wives/girl-friends of his friends (in fact, we never saw him look twice at Krillin's anime-only girlfriend Marron). So the logic of this point fails because you're ultimately trying to take literally a couple of exceptions, and make them the rule, and it doesn't work that way. The point I made above in regards to Chi Chi and #18 being attached to Goku and Krillin makes it even more ridiculous of Toriyama's "allegation" (because let's face it, that's really all it is) that Yamcha would cheat on Bulma. After all, if he's the type of guy who would betray his girl-friend in order to sleep/date/flirt with other women, then why wouldn't he also do so with Chi Chi or #18? I think we both would agree that it's because it's not in Yamcha's character to betray his friends. And if that's the case, then why would that not apply to his relationship with Bulma as well?

My point has never been that he's immune to cheating, almost anything is possible. But if we're going by that narrative, that almost anything is possible when it comes to these characters, then shouldn't we also AT LEAST consider it possible that it was Bulma who cheated, and not the other way around? This is why I have a hard time even having this discussion with most DBZ, and in particular V&B fans, because they never want to acknowledge that possibility. But back to my point, which has always been that there's no logical or factual evidence given to support the "Yamcha cheated" narrative that seemingly most DBZ fans have drank the proverbial kool-aid on. Sure, Bulma may have not outright accused him of cheating, but if you listen to most B&V fans (even the ones who DON'T demonize Yamcha), she certainly implied that he was cheating on her plenty of times. And ultimately the two, accusation vs implication, aren't really all that different. And as for Toriyama's "confirmation", again, this is contradictory information compared to what we've seen in the series, either in manga or anime. There is absolutely NO SCENE in either the manga or anime that anyone, including Toriyama himself, can point to and say "this here is definitive proof that Yamcha was two-timing Bulma". If that existed, then fans who like to trash Yamcha or just support B&V in general, would've presented that scene a long time ago.

But no one, again including Toriyama himself, can do that because it doesn't exist. Think about the narrative that this says about the DB/Z/Super fan-base, that only with this fan-base can a guy NEVER be seen engaging in any inappropriate behavior with other women, while his girl-friend can be seen engaging in plenty of inappropriate behavior with other men. Along with the series creator himself bragging that said male character still has bad luck/misfortune with women outside of his now ex-girlfriend, because of his chronic shyness around women in general. But yet that SAME guy can still be viewed with blame/derision simply BECAUSE the author contradicted himself by blaming said guy and labeling him a cheater, rather than putting the fault where it is really likely to belong.

As for that personality test you mentioned, I would have to seriously question/doubt the veracity of that test. Was it done by an expert? Some type of relationship counselor or psychological therapist? Or was it just random online test that is advertised on the side screen of various tabloid websites? As for what you pointed out about their relationship, I fail to see how Vegeta's dark history or his need for redemption has anything to do at all with Bulma's search for true love. The two are not analogous in the slightest, not even remotely so. As for her not finding true love with Yamcha, I personally think that's only because she didn't ALLOW for that to happen. Bulma's not a person who really spends much time evaluating herself. I think if she had spent as much time asking herself what she could do to try to reduce the amount of fights she had with Yamcha, instead of seemingly instigating said fights by accusing, no excuse me, implying him of engaging in wrong-doing, then perhaps their relationship might have been much stronger than what it was. To me, Bulma & Vegeta only really work much for the same reason that the Inuyasha & Kagome pairing works, because the author simply wants it too. But in reality, neither would really be a good fit/work out ultimately in the long run. This is why, ironically, a lot of Inuyasha fans HATE Kagome, but like Kikyo.

Sorry for the wall of text :-D

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SaiyanPrince541 In reply to ImperialWrath [2017-10-19 14:12:23 +0000 UTC]

I sort of disagree. Yamcha has standards, of course he wouldn't try and go for Chi-Chi/Eighteen (and not just for the obvious reasons you mentioned). What I meant was that he doesn't act like he's been struck by lightning, whenever he's around them. Even in Dragon Ball (23rd tournament), he didn't really know Chi-Chi very well, but I remember her crying on his shoulder when Goku was being tortured by Piccolo, in the 23rd tournament. He was pretty comfortable with it and didn't act all nervous and shaky.

Well, I wouldn't acknowledge the possibility that Bulma cheated, not because I'm a VegeBul fan, but because there's no evidence of it, whatsoever and you wouldn't expect someone like "Future Bulma" to accuse Yamcha of something she did herself. It's not in her character. She's extremely kind, gentle and altruistic. Present Bulma was never shown to explicitly accuse him of cheating, meaning he probably hadn't done anything like that, until Vegeta came along (she's voiced her jealousy over fangirls, but that's about it, unless you can cite me an example that proves otherwise). Trunks' relaying of the future events is all we have to go on (most likely based on what his mother told him). Again, I don't think Future Bulma's the type of person to lie. That coupled with Toriyama's confirmation, kind of spells it out for me.

Now, it could be that Future Bulma was paranoid and mistaken (not a liar, I think it's absurd to think she'd intentionally lie about that) and that Toriyama's words were merely in jest (since he did laugh, after saying it). And if you believe as such, that's all good (sometimes, I like to think of it that way too).

I can't remember the site exactly, but it was a questionnaire and each question was answered, in the way that Bulma and Vegeta would've answered and the results matched together. I think they fit perfectly well together. When you've got someone who's needy, bored, adventurous and has a fierce, assertive personality (not to mention, a think for bad boys), coupled with a badass guy, who's sort of in a grey area and is very domineering himself, it's entirely plausible to see them getting down and dirty (and over the years, developing a connection). I think Bulma and Vegeta brought out the best in each other (Bulma matures a lot, compared to before and of course, Vegeta's no longer evil... eventually). I disagree. I think Bulma/Vegeta's personalities are a perfect fit. But hey, we can agree to disagree on that.

As for Yamcha, I don't blame him as much as the excitement of the relationship, dwindling over time. In the beginning he was wild and untamed, just as Bulma loved, but overtime he grew domesticated and sort of docile. He became a lot nicer too and I think he'd suit better with a nice girl. I think, in a way, Vegeta embodied a lot of the things Bulma loved about Yamcha to begin with, plus more (being an exotic alien etc.). That's part of what drew them together... But, in any case, that's my take.

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ImperialWrath In reply to SaiyanPrince541 [2017-10-20 01:04:01 +0000 UTC]

I get what you mean about Yamcha not being struck by lightning, but your example in regards to Chi-Chi was exactly the point I was trying to make. Yamcha is comfortable around them because they're safe. He knows he doesn't have to worry about any of them hitting on him, because they're married to two of his best friends. So he feels no pressure romantically from them. That's far different than some strange woman who he has no attachment to, and who expresses a romantic interest in him. Two prime examples of this dichotomy are Haske and the soldier girl from the Red Ribbon Army in DB. Haske attempted to openly flirt with him, and he panicked in response. The same thing happened with the soldier girl (I cannot for the life of me remember her name), even though they were fighting each other at first and it wasn't until he unmasked her that he had his reaction. Even though she made no attempt to flirt with him, just her presence in front of him was enough to incite a response. That's why I find it extremely unlikely that Yamcha did indeed cheat on Bulma, plus the fact that at the time the affair was alleged to have occurred, he was training for a life and death battle with the androids. 

I do think it's interesting that most fans won't accept that Bulma indeed cheated, as you stated, because there's no evidence of it. But yet the same fans are more than happy to hold Yamcha as the culprit to this very day, even though there's no evidence that he did either. However, I do believe and have argued that there's actually a lot more evidence to support the theory that Bulma cheated rather than Yamcha. For example, while you are correct in that she's shown jealousy over fangirls, there are also tons of examples of her openly flirting with other men, both in the anime & manga. She even bragged about kissing Vegeta in a dream she had, right in front of Yamcha at the time. And while she may have not outright accused Yamcha of cheating, she did heavily imply a number of times. It's also interesting that many people who defend Bulma tend to describe her as if she's Lunch's good half, but gloss over how much of a shrew she actually was, particularly toward Yamcha. Not to mention that she could also be selfish at times too, as she was going to demand that Goku return her to Earth as soon as he arrived on Namek, even though they had not yet achieved the goal that they traveled all the way out to Namek for. That same selfish demeanor may have also led her to lie to Trunks about who was really responsible for the break up, as she obviously wouldn't want her son to have any type of negative view of her. To give you a real world example, when my parents first separated (and then later divorced), my Mom told my brother and I that it was all because of his drinking and his attitude when he was drunk. But in talking with my Dad, while he acknowledged that his drinking had played a role in it, he also told me of my Mom's domineering and controlling nature, and how he rarely ever had a say in household matters. Rather than be completely honest with me or my brother, she instead told us only her view of things.

As for Toriyama's confirmation, the reason I don't take that seriously isn't simply because he laughed it off at the time he was asked about it by Yamcha's voice actor. I don't take his words as seriously as I would other mangaka because this is a man who has openly acknowledged to making the story line up as he goes, forgetting a lot of his own material, and even contradicting it at numerous points throughout the series. In fact, many fans have called him out on this and it's the reason why quite a bit of them have such a problem with DB Super, as these issues are extremely prevalent in this particular series. A key example of this that I've pointed out before, is how Toriyama has blamed Yamcha for the break up with Bulma, yet he's also stated that Yamcha will always be single because he will always be extremely nervous around them. But isn't that kind of a contradiction? The same for Future Trunks' tale of events, as he told Goku that after the split, Yamcha eventually meets and falls in love with another woman, while Bulma goes on to marry Vegeta. But how could that possibly occur if, according to Toriyama, he will always have terrible luck because of his chronic fear/nerves? It's just simply not logical to trust the word of anyone who outright contradicts themselves or their own material in such blatant fashion. And it also leaves little credence to Future Trunks' story, as other than Vegeta & Bulma marrying, none of what he said about Yamcha has occurred even in Super.

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SaiyanPrince541 In reply to ImperialWrath [2017-10-20 02:31:02 +0000 UTC]

Hmmm, true, good point, good point, but it doesn't necessarily have to be a stranger. As a superstar, Yamcha would naturally have been around a lot of women and would've gotten to know some of them, so... you know. Hmmm, Hasky was filler though and the RRA girl was in the movies, which are also filler xD. But yeah... I too think that Yamcha is more natural around women he knows.

I think it entirely possibly, with the Bulma break-up, that he felt a sense of desire to some gal he knew from his time in baseball, but had kept faithful, until he saw Bulma warming up to Vegeta (and might've wrongly suspected that something went on behind the scenes). Again, it's all speculation, but I like to give Yamcha the benefit of the doubt and not place him entirely in the wrong, same with Bulma. Painting it as a black/white issue, with Yamcha totally innocent and Bulma totally guilty, is a disservice to both characters IMO. Incidentally, in my own DBZ Story (The Light to my Darkness), neither of them technically cheat on one-another and to tell you the truth, part of me prefers it that way.

Okay, but that's where you're wrong. There is evidence of Yamcha cheating, with Future Trunks' revelation and Toriyama's words (from that Furuya Toru interview), but again... it's entirely reasonable not to accept that claim, because Future Bulma could've been mistaken and Toriyama isn't always serious xD. But to me, accusing Bulma of cheating is just plain slander, because there's no evidence, unlike in Yamcha's case (yes, she's flirted and been fickle, but never outright cheated or ever been accused of doing so by Toriyama or other DBZ characters). Flirting/mooning isn't really the same thing as cheating, so yeah... Unless there's an excerpt of Yamcha or Pu'ar or someone else, accusing Bulma of cheating, it's all speculation.

You talk about Bulma's selfish demeanor, but you have to remember the developments she underwent after motherhood. She wasn't anything like that, in the later sagas and I seriously doubt it's in her character to lie to her own son and accuse Yamcha of something she did herself. It's not the type of person she is. And you say that Present Bulma's implied that Yamcha's cheated throughout the series, but I haven't seen a single example of that (only Future Trunks' example).

You make good points and because of that, I take Toriyama's words as canon unless proven otherwise. Toriyama didn't say he'll be single forever, he just said that Yamcha's still out searching for his true love and is still shy/nervous around girls (but as demonstrated, this doesn't necessarily apply to girls he knows)... Hmmm, you seem to be confused because of the English dub. In the original manga and Jap dub, Future Trunks never says that Yamcha falls in love with another women.

But, anyway, it's all up to fans to decide, since as you said, there're contradictions and discrepancies, even within the canon.

Personally, I prefer a route where both Bulma and Yamcha are in a sort of grey-zone, but neither is fully innocent or fully guilty. As a Yamcha fan, I can understand why you'd want to paint Yamcha as fully innocent, since a lot of VegeBul fans stupidly do the same thing with Bulma, but I do think it's better if we try and be reasonable and look at things from a completely unbiased lens, recognizing that both characters and heck, all characters have their ups and downs (it's not easy, but we can try).

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ImperialWrath In reply to SaiyanPrince541 [2017-10-23 19:12:48 +0000 UTC]

I've never said that I hold Yamcha as completely innocent. I've simply stated that I don't find it in his character to cheat, the same way you find it's not in Bulma's character to lie. Throughout the series, Yamcha was the ONLY character among all of the Z-fighters who actually WANTED to get married and have a family. This is stated in continuity, so again, how is it all of sudden that he went from THAT, to the serial cheater that Toriyama attempted to paint him as? How come people take Future Trunks' words of what happened as gospel, over Yamcha's initial desire to get married and have a family? Again, I don't see the logic in taking Toriyama's words as gospel when myself and others have pointed out numerous inconsistencies and blatant contradictions he's made throughout the series. 

And for the record, the reason why I accuse Bulma of cheating, is because we don't know exactly WHEN Trunks' conception happened. Was Bulma still together with Yamcha when she slept with Vegeta? Or had they broken up at that point and Vegeta was just a rebound? We don't know, and as you stated, it's all speculation. If Toriyama had made that a bit clearer, then the argument would be settled. But if you're going to ask me who I believed was more likely to cheat between the "fickle and flirtatious" female character, and the male character whose LITERAL only wish was to settle down and have a family, guess who I'm gonna go with? Sure, flirting/pining isn't the same as cheating, but BOTH are behaviors that have been historically present in people who have or do cheat. 

I honestly would like to think that their break-up happened BEFORE Trunks was conceived, and that's how I think Toriyama should've written it. That way neither party would have to be slandered. But that's not what he did, and again, I simply just CANNOT accept the words of a man who's literally bragged about forgetting his own material and contradicts himself at every turn, as gospel.

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SaiyanPrince541 In reply to ImperialWrath [2017-10-24 05:45:43 +0000 UTC]

Okay, consider the example you cited, regarding your parents. Your mother accused your father of drinking, but omitted her own controlling nature (maybe because she didn't see it that way). It wasn't a lie, as much as a half-truth and I think it's the same with Future Bulma. She mentioned Yamcha's cheating, but probably didn't mention what must've led to it (which, in my head canon, is her cozying in, on Vegeta and Yamcha's possible suspicion that something was happening behind the scenes). Those are my thoughts, anyway.

Also think about Bulma's character progression, through the series. She doesn't flirt as much in DBZ, as she does in DB (even the Zarbon scene is really exaggerated in the anime, in the manga, she just says: "Maybe a handsome guy's come to rescue us." or something to that effect). If she were the same as in DB, for instance, she'd flirt the heck out of Future Trunks, since she doesn't know who he is (but all she does is give him a harmless wink). Maybe it's just co-incidence, but her fickle behaviour lessens overtime and after motherhood, it's more or less, gone, so I'd pretty much count her out where cheating is concerned (that and absolutely NO evidence).

As for Yamcha's initial dream to settle down, yes it's still there, but that doesn't mean he isn't a man who makes mistakes. Things often go awry, even in the real world. For example, hypothetically I might dream of winning an olympic gold medal in Bodybuilding, but when it comes to training, I end up being a lazy slug. Some may argue that being nervous around women, can make one even more susceptible to being seduced (though I don't think that's the case with Yamcha).

I'm pretty sure their break-up did happen before Trunks was conceived. Remember the Androids saga scene, where Yamcha's all upset and says: "That's not my kid (referring to Trunks). Bulma and I broke up long ago." To me, that strongly indicates that they weren't together, at the time.

Again, I think outright rejection of Toriyama's words isn't the right way, but treating them as canon unless proven otherwise, would be better xD.

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ImperialWrath In reply to SaiyanPrince541 [2017-10-26 02:04:39 +0000 UTC]

I agree with you on that real-world example I gave regarding my parents, in fact I think I even did mention it as half-truth. At the very least, it could also be argued as lying by omission. In any case, my point was that the hole in Future Trunks claim regarding Yamcha, is that he was told that story from his mother. The fact that Future Bulma probably didn't mention her ignoring Yamcha in favor of "cozying up to Vegeta" as you put it, is pretty much the point I was making. As his mother, if she had either openly flirted with or even cheated with Vegeta on Yamcha, she likely wouldn't have told Trunks that because no mother wants to give their child (especially their son) reason to view them in a negative light.

As for her character progression, sure it had lessoned over time, but it was still there and very noticeable. Her behavior changing after Trunks was born is a moot point, because we're discussing the behavior of Bulma pre-motherhood, not post. As for your point on Yamcha's dream, sure every man can make mistakes. But does that not apply to women as well? You mean to tell me it's entirely possible for Yamcha to have messed up the relationship, but not Bulma? This again, is another point I'm trying to get across, and an issue I have with most DB/Z/Super fandom, is the double-standards we create when it comes to characters. You've gone out of your way to paint Bulma as innocently as possible, while giving Yamcha very little, if any benefit of the doubt.

For one, your body-building analogy would work a lot better if Yamcha had been accused of being lazy in the relationship (I think it's entirely possible that he might've ignored her a bit during his baseball years, as those seasons tend to run long, 8 months out of the year!). Toriyama accused him of cheating, which would be akin to you dreaming to be a body-builder, and your Dad later telling people you used steroids after you started working out. Now, if no one can prove you ever took steroids, then and your Dad has a reputation for contradicting himself, does it make sense for people to believe him SIMPLY because he's your Dad? In all of the discussions I've had with fans on this subject, I've never heard of anyone arguing that Yamcha being nervous around women would make him more susceptible to being seduced. But speaking as someone who was incredibly nervous around girls in high-school, I can tell you that a girl openly flirting with me would've given me a near panic attack. And as a guy, being nervous with a woman is NOT conducive to being able to hook up with one, a big reason why I only had literally 2 girlfriends by the time I was 20.

I respect your dedication to Toriyama's words, but again, I don't see the logic in it. Think about it, Toriyama is the one who made the claim that Yamcha cheated on Bulma. Shouldn't HE be the one to prove that happened? Where's the evidence of that, other than Trunks story which we've both already acknowledged he only had one side of. ;D

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SaiyanPrince541 In reply to ImperialWrath [2017-10-26 06:09:52 +0000 UTC]

No, I doubt she cheated with Vegeta (flirting/teasing was likely the case). Of course, she wouldn't want Trunks to view her in a negative light, but she isn't a total bitch. You would expect that of the most coldhearted of women and while Bulma can be a little callous at times, she has a strong caring/compassionate side to her.

No, no, not at all. I'm not saying that. I think both Bulma and Yamcha are more or less equally at fault here and the relationship itself, just went past its due date. IMO they should've probably split up a while ago, cause their personalities just don't match.

Come on, really? This whole time I've been saying that Bulma's definitely not fully innocent and I've certainly given Yamcha the benefit of the doubt (i.e. saying that he might've suspected something was going on with B/V, which led him to seek comfort elsewhere). I think it's the other way around, when you accuse Bulma of outright lying, cheating and being a total hypocritical bitch (which she would be, if she cheated herself and falsely accused Yamcha of it), while painting Yamcha as fully innocent. I cast blame on both of them, the surrounding circumstances and the relationship itself. Honestly, I think I'm being pretty fair.

Well, of course Toriyama shouldn't have to prove what he claims of his own story, unless he directly contradicts it. If he confirms Future Trunks' revelation as the true version of what happened, that pretty much seals the deal. Again, it could've been he was saying it all in jest and perhaps Bulma was mistaken etc. but yeah. I can see it happening one of two ways:

(1) Bulma was getting a little too familiar around Vegeta, while keeping Yamcha at bit of a distance, which led to him cheating and their subsequent breakup. Afterwards, there was Trunks' conception.

(2) Same as the above, except Bulma's suspicions that Yamcha cheated were incorrect (of course, this would be for the benefit of Yamcha fans).

I don't see a third option where Bulma cheats, because we know she and Yamcha broke up before Trunks' conception, as I showed in the previous post, plus Trunks says that his parents came together, as a result of loneliness (the only reason she would be lonely, is because of the Yamcha-breakup).

And if you notice something else, in both instances, Bulma has at least some degree of blame for the collapse of the relationship. I feel I'm being impartial and not painting either party as fully innocent.

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ImperialWrath In reply to SaiyanPrince541 [2017-10-28 16:46:05 +0000 UTC]

I haven't necessarily been accusing or trying to paint Bulma as being a bitch. I've simply pointed out specific aspects of her character, at least prior to her giving birth to Trunks, as indicators that if anyone were likely to have cheated in the relationship, it would be Bulma, not Yamcha. Does that mean that I don't have any criticisms in how Yamcha handled their relationship? Not at all, in fact, I would even AGREE with your assessment that Yamcha likely was too soft when it came to Bulma. Which I believe is also why you said you view Vegeta as a better romantic partner for Bulma than Yamcha. He clearly let her run things and get her way the majority of the time, something that she was used to coming from the type of background she comes from (a family with a TON of money and who's Dad likely gave her any and everything she wanted). And while I personally don't think that should be reason enough for their to break up, I could definitely see it being a catalyst, as one I learned from my Father and other men growing up, is that women tend to lose a lot of respect for guys who they know they can walk over. Or who will cater them and never push back against them, and like it or not, I have to acknowledge that Yamcha was the type of guy who was just willing to cater to Bulma and let her run the relationship, likely just so he could avoid having to deal with her if he didn't.

But again, we have to be HONEST with ourselves and each other, if we're to have a rational and mature discussion on the nature of their relationship what might have ultimately caused it. The  thing about Bulma is that she's not a one-dimensional character, there are different sides to her. Sure, she's definitely shown times where she can be kind, and welcoming (such as when the Namekian survivors briefly lived on Earth after Freeza), but that doesn't erase all of the other times we saw her screeching at and talking down to Yamcha, Krillin, or other people over something petty and insignificant. Or her flirting with other guys in both DB and DBZ, whether her boyfriend was present or not, or her selfish desire to leave Namek and have Goku return her to Earth immediately, even while he, Krillin & Gohan were still out risking their lives to gather the dragon balls so they could wish her boyfriend (and everyone else who died protecting Earth) back to life. And I think that you and I are not having an honest discussion if you're choosing to only acknowledge one aspect of her character, while ignoring or dismissing the others. You likewise do the opposite with Yamcha, as I've pointed out already that there is not a SINGLE instance in either the manga or anime that so much as hints that Yamcha ever cheated or was otherwise unfaithful to Bulma. Why is it that you require proof that Bulma was the one who cheated, but you don't require proof that Yamcha ever did?

The whole reason this narrative is even being discussed is because of some off-handed comment that Toriyama made to the seiyuu of Yamcha and Bulma, when it was revealed she has a child with Vegeta. My answer was that if anyone had cheated, it would've been Bulma simply because of certain traits she exhibited throughout the series. Your answer was Yamcha simply because that's what Toriyama has said. And even when I point out how Toriyama has stated other things that contradict the "Yamcha's a cheater" narrative, you still refuse to acknowledge them, while simultaneously defending or dismissing every example I gave in regards to Bulma's behavior throughout the series prior to Trunk's birth. You state that unless Toriyama contradicts himself, then he shouldn't have to prove what he puts in his story, but how does that make any LOGICAL sense? Toriyama has NEVER given us a single instance in the series (anime or manga) to believe or even suspect that Yamcha ever cheated on Bulma, even Future Trunks didn't accuse Yamcha of outright cheating, he just said that Yamcha was "too non-committal". But again, this is an exact contradiction to A) what Yamcha's primary motivations as a character were (that his biggest wish was to settle down and start a family), B) the indirect proposal Yamcha makes to Bulma when Goku wishes her to have a healthy baby, and when she wonders what he means, Yamcha says out loud that it perhaps it was his way of saying they should "stop putting it off and get married". Again, as I've stated before, I do not see the logic in taking for gospel the words of a man who admits to contradicting and/or forgetting his own material.

I'm not sure how familiar you are with the Naruto series, but at the end of that series two characters wind up getting married and having kids, the series protagonist Naruto, and his long-time hidden admirer Hinata. Now, while Naruto was pervy guy practically since he was a child (although he did mellow out much later once he got older), Hinata was chronically shy. Now imagine after all the years of pining for, and then finally getting married to the man she had admired and loved since they were kids, it is stated in the beginning of the Boruto (named after their son) spin-off series that the two got divorced. And later on, when asked by someone why the couple split up, the series' creator Kishimoto casually states "because Hinata cheated." Now do you really believe that even his most hardcore fan-base would believe a character with her background and personality would engage in such behavior? Because that's essentially what you're saying by suggesting that Toriyama should never have to qualify or justify his own material, and that whatever half-assed explanation he gives should just be blindly accepted.

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SaiyanPrince541 In reply to ImperialWrath [2017-10-29 04:57:32 +0000 UTC]

I disagree with that. In terms of characterizations, yes, Bulma seems more likely to cheat, but in terms of chronological events, it would have to be Yamcha, because: (1) We know Bulma and Yamcha broke up before Trunks' conception (2) We know Bulma got with Vegeta because the two of them were lonely (she would only be lonely because of breaking up with Yamcha) and (3) Yamcha never accuses Bulma of cheating and is still friends with her, even after the whole debacle between them (not something you'd expect from even the most forgiving of people, if their girlfriend cheated on them, with the guy responsible for his demise).

Okay yes, the petty screeching and flirting does occur, true, but it's nowhere near as bad as cheating. As for the wish to return to Earth, she wouldn't really do that, if it came down to it xD. It's just the terrible circumstances she's caught in. Bulma's a Princess, used to being lavished, comforted and spoiled, but on Namek she has to live in the middle of an island, without a bed or good good (probably go to the bathroom outdoors, as well). And hey, of course I acknowledge Bulma's flaws. It's part of what makes her such an intriguing character.

What do you mean there's no hint that Yamcha ever cheated? There is Future Trunks' revelation, plus the timeline of what happened, not to mention that Yamcha might've probably had a semi-legitimate reason to seek comfort elsewhere, since he might've wrongly suspected something going on between Bulma/Vegeta, behind the scenes.

Actually future Trunks did accuse Yamcha of cheating. The non-committal translation isn't correct. "Playing the field" is more accurate and that, of course, means cheating. I don't see how either A or B are in anyway a contradiction to a man, whose girlfriend is harboring the guy responsible with his death, acting a little too familiar with him (as is her style) and is keeping him at a distance. That sort of thing creates animosity and yeah, it can lead to cheating, in even the best of people. Like I said, I give Yamcha the benefit of the doubt here. If I were some hater, I'd just say: "Yamcha cheated, end of story", but based on his and Bulma's characters, I would imagine a set of circumstances where both parties are to blame (as well as the relationship itself). Wanting to get married, having a child and being nervous around women, doesn't mean you're not human. Anyone would be pissed at the way Bulma treated Yamcha and I think that led him seeking comfort elsewhere OR accepting comfort from someone else (again, HUGE benefit of the doubt).

Basically here's what I believe is likely to have happened:
- Yamcha sees Bulma acting a little too friendly and caring around Vegeta (nursing him back to health and even sleeping by his bedside, while he's recovering).
- Yamcha questions Vegeta's presence in CC and Bulma's overt familiarity around him, but Bulma dismisses his claims (Bulma probably has a bit of crush on Vegeta, by this time, but doesn't act on it).
- The distance and awkwardness between them begins to grow.
- Yamcha tries to mend the relationship, but Bulma always too busy, building training equipment for Vegeta. This results in a major argument and Yamcha leaves, possibly believing that Bulma's cheating on him.
- Yamcha goes to a bar, gets a little tipsy and a fangirl starts flirting with him. Nervous, he tries to resist, but she keeps up her game. One thing leads to another and eventually, he falls from grace.

Tell me, what part of that really contradicts the canon characterization of either Bulma or Yamcha? In fact, I would argue it possibly casts more blame on Bulma than Yamcha. Is my head-canon narration really hateful or one-sided in your opinion?

Incidentally, I'd like you to tell me your headcanon in brief (the way I did) and perhaps we can discuss that.

No, I don't think Toriyama's half-assed explanations should blindly be accepted, but at the same time, they shouldn't blindly be rejected. Again, he doesn't need to "prove" what he wrote himself. If, however, he directly contradicts it (the case with Yamcha is NOT a direct contradiction)

I feel the same way. Yamcha was definitely far too whipped and I can see it happening in a lot of relationships.

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ImperialWrath In reply to SaiyanPrince541 [2017-11-01 20:45:08 +0000 UTC]

I'm sorry, but that first part makes no sense to me. Since when does the chronology of events count, or matters more than the actual characterization of the characters? But okay, let's go with your belief that chronology of events matters more than the characterization of the characters. That argument is still flawed because it's ridiculously full of holes. For one, if Bulma and Yamcha had broken up by the time the alleged affair took place, then how would it be possible for Yamcha to have cheated? Cheating on a partner can only occur IF you're still in a committed relationship with said partner, otherwise both individuals are considered single, and therefor cheating cannot have occurred. Secondly, Bulma being lonely is a moot point, because according to your own head-canon the relationship is over. If we're going by your head canon, then the relationship ending wasn't Yamcha's fault, it was Bulma's, and therefor her being lonely isn't Yamcha's fault either. As for your third point, just because Yamcha doesn't outright accuse her of cheating doesn't mean it's impossible that it happened.

Remember, this is a man who was able to forgive Tien in DB for intentionally breaking his leg almost immediately after it happened. Now you might say "well that's a minor issue, so it's not worth harboring a grudge over", okay, but he had also forgiven Vegeta for being indirectly responsible for killing him, and I would argue that is a FAR more grievous offense than the prospect of Bulma cheating. Heck, I could even take your argument and flip it, that Bulma appeared to still be friends with him, and that she never accuses him of cheating to their friends as the reason for their break up. Something that I think anyone who's ever been around a spurned woman would say they would have NO problem bringing that up, let alone most women who have been cheated on likely wouldn't still be friends with an ex who engaged in such behavior.

This goes back to my characterization over chronology argument, because it's the CHARACTERS we're debating about, not the chronology. And the fact is there is NOTHING in Yamcha's character, either in the manga or anime, that would back-up the accusation that Yamcha would ever cheat. But as you admitted, it IS more likely for her to have cheated based off of what we have seen of her own character within the series. This is also why I say there's no hint of Yamcha ever cheating. Future Trunks' accusation doesn't change that it contradicts everything we've seen and know of Yamcha's character. Plus, I've already pointed out the flaw in Trunks' accusation, because it's a one-sided accusation. His knowledge of what happened (as far as we know) only came from one source, his mother Bulma. He never verified her story with Yamcha (he couldn't because Yamcha had been dead for quite some time by that point), so his story at the very least is also incredibly biased. Ultimately, to believe in Future Trunks' one-sided accusation, is to say that said accusation trumps ALL of the other things we've ever seen of Yamcha's character, and in making that argument, you are essentially saying "Yamcha cheated, so that's the end of story". It's not really any different.

Sure, wanting to settle down and start a family, as well as having a crippling nervous reaction to women, doesn't mean you're not human. But no one is arguing that Yamcha is not human, we're debating whether or not those nuances fit a character who would cheat on his/her spouse. And the fact of the matter is that those things DO NOT fit a character who would cheat on his spouse. Based on the canon characterizations that I've listed, I'd say that yes, your head-canon does contradict that, at least in terms of Yamcha's characterization. That's what I've been trying to point out to you, the characterization of Yamcha. Based on what we've seen, and know, of his character in the series, the idea that he cheated on Bulma is a contradiction of the character, plain and simple. As to your point on Toriyama's explanations, no one is blindly rejecting his explanations. That would imply that I'm rejecting his cheating accusation in SPITE of what the series has shown us, and that is not the case. I'm rejecting his cheating accusation BECAUSE of what we've seen in the series, and in particular what we've seen and know of Yamcha's character. And how is Yamcha's characterization NOT a direct contradiction of Toriyama's half-assed explanation?

I've stated earlier, but my head-canon belief of what happened (in either Future Trunks' or the Z-fighters time line) is that at some point prior to the Androids arrival, Yamcha and Bulma went through another break-up due to perhaps another argument, possibly about Yamcha's busy schedule playing baseball, did you know the pro baseball season in Japan lasts 8 months??  And during said break up, Bulma wound up having a one night fling with Vegeta, and a pregnancy happened. And Yamcha, willing to forgive her, probably wasn't really willing raise the child of a man he viewed as being responsible for his death. To me, that makes a lot more sense than Toriyama just making stuff up to satisfy certain portions of his fan-base at the expense of a character he likely views as minor or unpopular.

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SaiyanPrince541 In reply to ImperialWrath [2017-11-10 08:33:57 +0000 UTC]

Actually characterization isn't necessarily as important as chronology. Sometimes circumstances can cause characters to commit acts we wouldn't expect of them. Take, for example Goku threatening to kill the Supreme Kai in the Buu saga. Goku's the last person you would expect to threaten an innocent. But again... circumstances! The very same thing can apply to Yamcha and in the circumstances I mentioned, it's very plausible for even the most noble of persons to commit such an act.

Okay, I guess I've been explaining this the wrong way. You're saying that Yamcha "cheating on his girlfriend" is off-character, plain and simple. But it's not that simple. Yes, it is very off-character for a guy like him, BUT as I showed above circumstances can cause people to act off-character (even in real life, for example, there are committed, Straight A model students, who end up joining gangs and what not).

Again, picture this scenario: Bulma's overly curious about Vegeta, probably talking about him all the time (even when she's with Yamcha), her dates with Yamcha grow more infrequent (since she's busy working on Vegeta's training equipment) and months later this causes an argument, which makes Yamcha storm out of the house (though they haven't officially broken up). After that Yamcha winds up at a bar, is recognized by some fangirl or other, they start talking to one-another and she sympathizes with his situation (possibly because something similar's happened to her). Though awkward at first, one thing leads to another and they eventually end up beneath the sheets. He feels extremely guilty afterwards, tells Bulma and she dumps him. Weeks later, she ends up in Vegeta's arms, but he's obviously very cold and unfeeling.

How is any of that out-of-character? It's something that any human could end up doing, no matter how noble their intent. What's more, neither party is completely innocent in the above. And where are the plot holes, in my scenario? I don't see any.

I feel that my headcanon makes a lot more sense than yours, as far as characterization goes, because even though Yamcha does technically "cheat", he does so out of a sense of loneliness and insecurity that goes on for months, which Bulma doesn't exactly help solve (in fact she does the opposite by spending so much time doting on Vegeta). Yours on the other hand, really paints Bulma as a terrible, terrible person, since she not only cheats, but falsely accuses her ex of cheating. That's a pure bitch move, if you ask me and though Bulma can be a bitch quite often (something I sort of like about her), nothing in her character suggests that she'd ever go that far. She never explicitly accused Yamcha of cheating, back when they were together (sure, she was pissed off about his fan-club, but that's about it), so it's not something I'd expect from her future counterpart, who's a lot more kind, mature and compassionate.

On a final note, I don't really think you can flip my argument about Yamcha forgiving Bulma, because Yamcha having a fling with some girl, is NOT the same as Bulma cheating with the guy who indirectly caused Yamcha's death and on top of that, falsely accusing Yamcha of cheating. Furthermore, Bulma forgiving him makes more sense, since she ends up in a committed relationship, whereas Yamcha ends up in a series of failed relationships. As for Yamcha forgiving Vegeta, remember that that didn't happen straight away. It was only after he saw him stand up in defence of Future Trunks and saw that noble side of him that Bulma might've mentioned (which he didn't believe existed, till that point).

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ImperialWrath In reply to SaiyanPrince541 [2017-11-11 07:23:04 +0000 UTC]

Okay, so let me break down your arguments one at a time: 

For starters, your first comment about circumstances had absolutely NOTHING to do with your prioritizing chronology over characterization. Yes, Goku threatening to kill the Supreme Kai was about the circumstances, but those circumstances had nothing to do with the chronology. You can't just move the goal post in a debate just because you can't argue your previous position, that's not how these things work. 

Another point I've been repeatedly bringing up, is that what you're suggesting (aka your head-canon) ISN'T TRUE!!! It's simply not backed up by anything in the series, and I've gone to great lengths to point that out already. That's what makes it out of character. Notice in your head-canon, you've gone out of your way to create this "perfect storm" of a scenario just to justify Toriyama's lazy story-telling. Heck, even your comparison of "straight A students joining gangs" is practically so rare that you might as well be arguing the existence of Bigfoot. It's that unlikely for a situation like that to happen. Notice, I don't have to create any perfect, "what-if" stories, all I have to do is simply stick to the characterizations of the characters. 

Also, another thing about your head-canon, is that you're obviously not seeing how it makes one character look vs the other (that, or you don't care). This is an example of why I accused you of playing favorites earlier in our debate. You want to talk about "being human" and what not, but you ignore a simple aspect of humanity. And that is that most people tend to look down more on a person who cheats (especially if he's a guy), a lot more so than they do the spouse who drives them to do it. Heck, for further evidence of this, all one has to do is look no further than Yamcha & Bulma, and how fans treat/view each one differently. Yamcha is practically looked down on, and even HATED by most DB/Z/Super fans, simply BECAUSE Toriyama labeled him a cheater (not depicted mind you), yet Bulma spent years being bitchy to not just Yamcha, but other characters as well, and fans not only defend it but celebrate it. Something that even you just admitted doing.

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SaiyanPrince541 In reply to ImperialWrath [2017-11-11 13:54:27 +0000 UTC]

Quite the contrary. Those circumstances had everything to do with the chronological events that led to that point, i.e. Vegeta going dark-side, murdering scores of innocent people and threatening to kill even more etc. and that's the same thing with my head-canon. I think the problem here is a sort of lack of understanding, on both our sides.

Rare? So what if it's rare? You're acting as if "rare" things don't happen. This is Dragon Ball, where the most unlikeliest things happen every odd episode. Yes, you're right that my headcanon isn't necessarily TRUE, that's why it's called a head-canon to begin with. However, it is very plausible and fits perfectly with Toriyama's version of the story and remains true to every character (i.e. Bulma being naive and selfish and not considering Yamcha's feelings; Yamcha feeling lonely and neglected and thus being more susceptible to the approach of other women, despite his shyness; Vegeta being a coldhearted jerk but still giving in to his desires and budding sentimentality etc.).

On the contrary, I think you're the one playing favourites not me. As I've stated many times, in my scenario both parties are guilty and in fact, Bulma may be seen as even guiltier, since she's repeatedly snuffing Yamcha's feelings (again, that's true to her character).

Simply sticking to a rigid characterization of characters is ridiculous, because as I said, circumstances can cause characters to act off-character and in Dragon Ball, there're tons of instances of character development. Hypothetically, if we stuck to the "characterization of characters" and there was no DBZ, could we ever imagine Piccolo becoming an ultra-compassionate foster father to the son of his worst enemy? No!! Again, unexpected things happen, especially in DBZ and unless they DRASTICALLY contradict canonical events (e.g. Toriyama caring that Goku doesn't care about his family and only cares about fighting), we just have to swallow it and accept it!!

Yes I am creating "what if" stories, BUT my what-if stories are NOT based around any wishy-washy favouritism, but around (1) Canonical events (i.e. Future Trunks' revelation), (2) Toriyama's words (verifying Trunks' revelation) and (3) The characters themselves and what could potentially lead to such an unexpected situation. That's being reasonable and fair in my eyes, something I don't think you're doing with Bulma.

Like I said, I enjoy Bulma's bitchiness to an extent (same with Chi-Chi), but not so far as her supposedly cheating on her boyfriend and then falsely accusing him of cheating (again, that's something drastically out-of-character for her, because no matter how bitchy or selfish she's been, she can only go so far until her compassion kicks in, e.g. in the Namek saga she bitches all the time but when she sees the dead Namekian children, she cries and realizes just how easy she has it). She wouldn't be so coldhearted as to falsely accuse Yamcha of cheating, when she did it herself (especially the older, kinder Bulma in the future timeline).

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