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brentcherry In reply to ??? [2016-11-27 10:24:51 +0000 UTC]

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Android3000 In reply to ??? [2016-11-27 10:15:14 +0000 UTC]

Hillary losing did womankind a favor. History will not be kind to her, all things considered.

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xSocratesx In reply to Android3000 [2016-11-27 17:16:12 +0000 UTC]

History is already kind to her if you are willing to find the facts rather than the propaganda spoonfed to people by BS sites on both sides of the isle.

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brentcherry In reply to Android3000 [2016-11-27 10:24:40 +0000 UTC]

Woman AND mankind, I'd say!

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NinthMusketeer In reply to ??? [2016-11-27 10:14:04 +0000 UTC]

It seemed to me not that she was speaking of a general 'glass ceiling' but rather POTUS specifically; she made a point to call out 'that highest and hardest' as you quoted. Regardless, 11 women isn't a statistically relevant sample size. If the majority, or even a significant fraction, of women are experiencing trouble in one or more areas of society then it is still an issue. The thing is, if a woman worked hard to make it past gender barriers and failed no one would ever hear about it. Further, women make up 51% of the population yet far less than 51% of the government, the disparity indicating that there still is a barrier to overcome. Ultimately I think this work paints the wrong picture with these women gazing disdainfully down on Clinton, yet she is the first female presidential candidate and arguably the most successful female in US politics. I think all of these people would be first in line to congratulate each other on their actions and its better to focus on the success of these women than turning it into an anti-Clinton piece. Especially when there are so many easier and more relevant ways to criticize her flaws; even if the above was completely accurate and Clinton was fully detached from reality in regards to woman's status that would still be a lesser character flaw than others (her arrogance, lack of respect for the military and complete detachment from how the average American lives come to mind).

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hollyleaf53 In reply to NinthMusketeer [2016-11-28 03:16:43 +0000 UTC]

Actually, there were women to run for president before her, she just made it the closest. She's still the first skank to run for president tho c:

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Schwarzer--Ritter In reply to NinthMusketeer [2016-11-27 12:54:10 +0000 UTC]

The 51% population argument assumes that men and women pick the exact same career choices.

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brentcherry In reply to NinthMusketeer [2016-11-27 10:24:23 +0000 UTC]

I know she was referring to being President of the United States when she said that, but the point is that the "glass ceiling" concept she's using is still wrong.

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ThisNickname In reply to brentcherry [2016-11-27 16:19:59 +0000 UTC]

So you're... aware that pointing out that there are 11 women in government positions is a total non sequitur response that proves nothing?

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brentcherry In reply to ThisNickname [2016-11-27 22:35:26 +0000 UTC]

It's a position under U.S. Government, just like the President. Not equivalent, but still related.

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bent-art In reply to brentcherry [2016-11-28 05:58:28 +0000 UTC]

Mate, "First Lady" is not a position under the US Government. Melania broke no glass ceiling. Kind of ruins the point you seem to be trying to make.

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enote-art In reply to bent-art [2016-11-28 06:59:51 +0000 UTC]

Agreed. Marrying someone who does something is not an accomplishment in itself.

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brentcherry In reply to enote-art [2016-11-28 12:19:53 +0000 UTC]

I never said it was an accomplishment. I said it was a milestone. Big difference.

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Silverspar In reply to brentcherry [2016-11-28 22:41:15 +0000 UTC]

It's not a milestone either. The hypocritical thing of a concession speech the day after, it really wasn't since the election as called after 2 in the morning, she delivered the speech around 11 am, which isn't even 9 hours later. Furthermore, your attempt at claiming a glass ceiling was broken, when she was mentioning the presidency, then trying to claim that Melania Trump some how superseded that, because she was married to Trump, you realize Clinton herself was a First Lady, not only does that really cut the legs out from your argument it just shows ridiculous levels of silliness in your biasness. You're also trying to downplay the statement she made, a statement to others that the position of POTUS was still needing to change, that America is the only first world country that has yet to elect a woman to its highest office to date, and it just sad how bitter people can be or twist words to suit a narrative at this point. And of course, the entire message was completely lost on a misguided attempt to make a political statement.

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brentcherry In reply to Silverspar [2016-11-28 22:53:14 +0000 UTC]

A person born in a communist country has never been First Lady of the U.S., which is a new occurrence, and therefore a milestone, by definition: www.merriam-webster.com/dictio…

After Hillary called Trump to concede the election, it was announced that she wouldn't speak, which she could have done, but chose not to. Doesn't look good on her.

The entire premise of the "glass ceiling" argument is that women and other minorities are prevented from achieving or setting milestones set by others. Not only have I provided evidence that others have done so, but even with the context of the U.S. presidency, Hillary is the first woman to be nominated as a primary candidate and to go as far as she did. No matter which way you spin it, she's still wrong, and the "glass ceiling" argument is complete bullshit.

I haven't twisted any words or taken anything out of context. Everything I've said is entirely valid.

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Silverspar In reply to brentcherry [2016-11-28 23:23:39 +0000 UTC]

It's not exactly a big feat, she won big in the life time lottery, thanks to a lecherous and unfaithful man picking her. You act like being attached to the arm of a man some how holds her up higher, when just being lucky to be married to a man, who btw, has been spouting tough illegal and immigration hate rhetoric for the past 18 months, some how makes it more special. It's silly and ridiculous notion. You are not actually putting any proof or actual evidence to back your claim, as you are actually demonstrating and unfavorable bias at this point. Making up a defacto point that doesn't exist when it was clear which glass ceiling was being talked about all in the name of hate and bigotry at this point and do the exact opposite as has been declared. So yes, in the end you are twisting words to meet your narrative and while people have been celebrating those small wins in an incredibly race ridden, hate filled election.

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brentcherry In reply to Silverspar [2016-11-28 23:29:09 +0000 UTC]

I never said any of that, nor did I imply it. If that's what you got from it, that's your problem, as I've made it clear that I'm not a fan of either candidate.

"Not actually putting any proof or actual evidence to back your claim"? Read the description! I've provided numerous linked backing up my point, which is more than you've done in either of your replies.

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Silverspar In reply to brentcherry [2016-11-28 23:38:49 +0000 UTC]

You've provided nothing actually. Instead you are trying to elevate a privileged white woman, oh who was illegal and working in the US on an expired VISA at the time mind you, who happen to be married to the dick who the minority of American's want as president, though the electoral doesn't go to vote until the 19th so it is not official until then as compared to the office of the president? Yes, you are indeed are saying that, and I find it funny, despite all that you put Melania Trump up there, but what about Michelle Obama, the first black woman to be First Lady, since Melania was kind enough to steal most of her speeches from her to begin with? I take issue with putting a woman who did nothing to earn her position as part of a glass ceiling that isn't even on the bar set at foot level, just because she happened to marry the rich dick at the time. That's like complimenting the dog the president-elect has of being the first of its breed in the white house as breaking a glass ceiling because it happens to be the president-elect's dog. You are giving an accolade that isn't even deserved, and especially of a woman who is, herself, an illegal and only hasn't been deported by proxy of being married to the dick himself.

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brentcherry In reply to Silverspar [2016-11-29 00:33:58 +0000 UTC]

I've explained myself thoroughly, and provided sources. And now you're pulling up irrelevant facts to try and make my point invalid and denying everything I've said and shown.

There's clearly no reasoning with you and there's no point in furthering this discussion.

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Silverspar In reply to brentcherry [2016-11-29 01:42:51 +0000 UTC]

No, I am not pulling out irrelevant facts, you are making up facts to try and elevate a person that doesn't deserve to be elevated. She did not work for where she is at. She did not even put a tenth of the effort in the other women on your list did. She basically married into royalty while the others actually had to campaign, talk to people and get endorsements, all she had to do was hang around the dick who was doing all the slandering, lying and attacks on actual citizens of this country. Hell, I doubt, like most of the country, you never even knew who she was until well into the campaign. You're basically insulting the women you are demonstrating to actually have broken a glass ceiling by elevating a person who didn't even put a hundredth of the effort in the others did. You are disrespecting those women who actually did something, and then trying to ignore the real facts of the matter. She does not deserve to be in the same room as those people, let alone even considered remotely close to the same level you are trying to put her on. That's just an insult and disgrace to the actual hard work those other women put themselves through.

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brentcherry In reply to Silverspar [2016-11-29 04:10:02 +0000 UTC]

Yeah, sure. Whatever. Keep telling yourself that.

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Silverspar In reply to brentcherry [2016-11-29 05:32:47 +0000 UTC]

Yes, I will because that is indeed the facts. Sorry you don't like to hear it, but elevating Melania to the level of those women who actually achieved something is just disrespectful to the hard work they did and the fact you are trying to twist a statement that was an attempt to stop the infighting only to reinforce the infighting is incredibly callous and honestly just demonstrates you attempting to chase a waterfall to find an issue that didn't even exist.

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brentcherry In reply to Silverspar [2016-11-29 05:37:19 +0000 UTC]

I never said it was comparable to what the others did, or even that it was much of a milestone. Hell, it's not even an achievement. But regardless of how you or I personally feel how important it is, it's still a milestone, and it would be insulting to overlook it.

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Silverspar In reply to brentcherry [2016-11-29 05:43:16 +0000 UTC]

It's not a milestone, hell it's not even a foot note. The only thing Melania is known for, at this point in history, is plagiarizing Michelle Obama's DNC speech. And no, it won't be insulting to overlook, because the bar she went over wasn't even ankle high. You are disgracing and insulting the work and name of those women who actually worked, who actually had to put in effort, who had to overcome actual adversity and other prejudices to get where they are compared to a gold digger woman who married into royalty as it were. Melania only had to sit there in a dress and look pretty. She didn't do anything to earn her spot as first lady and this does not make it a milestone or even a remote accomplishment. In fact it just shines and even more powerful spotlight on Trump's hypocrisy, since Melania herself is an illegal.

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brentcherry In reply to Silverspar [2016-11-29 06:02:18 +0000 UTC]

I've already gone over this, and I'm not repeating myself. Believe what you want, but I stand by what I said.

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brentcherry In reply to bent-art [2016-11-28 06:18:56 +0000 UTC]

No, but it's still an important role, nonetheless. www.britannica.com/topic/first…

It's still a milestone and doesn't ruin my point at all.

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bent-art In reply to brentcherry [2016-11-29 04:52:55 +0000 UTC]

Actually, it does ruin your point trying to jam her in there. She didn't accomplish anything and being the latest in a series of women to marry Trump is not a milestone. Being in an "important role" because a rich businessman chose to marry you as wife #3 is *not* breaking the glass ceiling. It's quite the opposite really, because she only got there *due to her husband*.

If you're after generic "milestones" to praise, sure, a foreign-born woman is married to POTUS. If you're looking to examples to castigate Hillary about her "glass ceiling" speech - Melania is not going to work for you.

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brentcherry In reply to bent-art [2016-11-29 05:29:17 +0000 UTC]

I never said it was accomplishment, which I agree it's not. I said it was a milestone, which is completely different.

The glass ceiling argument includes both personal accomplishments and advancements of women and other minorities, regardless if it's earned or not. I absolutely agree that it's not much of a milestone, especially compared to the others up there. But it is one nonetheless, and cannot be overlooked.

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bent-art In reply to brentcherry [2016-11-30 04:32:23 +0000 UTC]

And, as I pointed out, it is neither an accomplishment nor a milestone.

The "glass ceiling" is not broken or even scratched when a woman gains an honorary non-government role *solely by being married to a man in a position of power*. That's all Melania's "First Lady" status entails. Being married to Donald Trump. If he divorces her, she loses her "First Lady" status. No amount of grace, poise, or political accomplishment on her part will change that. If Donald decides to keep her around, no amount of idiocy, nepotism, or even outright illegal behaviour on her part will remove that status. It is nothing more than a fancy name given to the female partner of POTUS. Women were married to men who were president before, they still are. Louisa Adams beat Melania for being a foreign-born First Lady by almost two hundred years - there is no milestone here, no matter how many ways you spin it.

Milestones are markers along the journey towards an eventual goal and unless the eventual goal is that women get honorary roles outside government based on being married to the right man - Melania's position is not on that journey. You undermine your argument about Hillary's glass ceiling speech by trying to jam her in there. 

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brentcherry In reply to bent-art [2016-11-30 04:50:30 +0000 UTC]

Not an accomplishment, but by definition, a milestone. This is not debatable. www.dictionary.com/browse/mile…

The "glass ceiling" argument says otherwise. And the while the role of the First Lady constantly evolves, it's still seen as an important position: www.theatlantic.com/politics/a…

They certainly can be. And yes, the other 10 women definitely worked to where they are now, making their milestones on the grounds of accomplishment more significant. But on the grounds of ethnicity and diversity in American politics and government positions, Melania is no different than any of the others that are recognized for.

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bent-art In reply to brentcherry [2016-11-30 11:17:26 +0000 UTC]

Yes, the definition of milestone is known and, by that very definition, the foreign-born First Lady that occurred nearly two hundred years ago might count but Melania doesn't.

If there was anything "significant" in the first woman born overseas happening to be wife of the man becoming president or if you believe that is "progress" - it wasn't Melania that achieved that, it was Louisa Adams back in 1825. Melania's role as First Lady is not "significant", is not "progress", and was pre-empted before your grandparents were born. By definition.

  glass ceiling: (noun) an unacknowledged barrier to advancement in a profession, especially affecting women and members of minorities.

Wife is not a profession. First Lady is not a profession. Regardless of how much it has "evolved", First Lady is not a position in government. There is no unacknowledged barrier to women born overseas marrying US businessmen. There is most certainly no unacknowledged barrier to foreign models marrying US businessmen after they've moved on from previous wives. Finally, there is no unacknowledged barrier to men marrying women from overseas being president, at least not since 1825. No matter how many times you repeat yourself, the "glass ceiling" argument doesn't apply to Melania.

That in no way impinges on her character, her personal accomplishments, or that she will probably make a fine, if somewhat less proactive, First Lady. It is just that Melania's "achievement" is very different than the what the others are recognised for. She married the right businessman after he moved on from his older previous spouses. The others you list achieved advancement in their professions that would not even be countenanced fifty years ago. You undermine your argument by trying to jam her in amongst those examples. No amount of stubbornly repeating yourself is going to magically make her marriage to Trump anything whatsoever to do with "breaking the glass ceiling".

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brentcherry In reply to bent-art [2016-11-30 22:11:45 +0000 UTC]

While Louisa Adams was born outside of U.S., her father was American, so her citizenship was a birthright. Melania's wasn't.

I've already gone over everything else, and I'm not repeating myself.

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bent-art In reply to brentcherry [2016-11-30 22:46:07 +0000 UTC]

   "While Louisa Adams was born outside of U.S., her father was American, so her citizenship was a birthright. Melania's wasn't."

Which has nothing to do with "breaking the glass ceiling". 

   "I've already gone over everything else, and I'm not repeating myself."

That's fine, I was only going over it because you kept pushing the idea Melania's position as First Lady was relevant to the idea Hillary was ignoring those breaking the glass ceiling. I'm happy to leave it having shown that is not the case. Happy to revisit the issue if you choose to as well. No axe to grind here.

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brentcherry In reply to bent-art [2016-11-30 22:48:37 +0000 UTC]

Based on the definitions I've come across of both "milestone" and "glass ceiling", I'm going to have to disagree.

If you disagree, that's fine. I'm glad we could at least have a civil discussion about it.

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bent-art In reply to brentcherry [2016-12-01 11:50:54 +0000 UTC]

Based on the definitions you provided, the only way to consider it a "milestone" or "breaking the glass ceiling" is if one considers a foreign model wedding a rich businessman something as yet unachieved and/or being married a "profession". I don't agree with either being the case.

As for the civil discussion, I deal daily with trolls who actually know what buttons to push and I have three teenage sons. I'm not going to explode just because just you're stubbornly wrong.  

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brentcherry In reply to bent-art [2016-12-01 21:21:42 +0000 UTC]

Agree to disagree.

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bent-art In reply to brentcherry [2016-12-02 11:58:41 +0000 UTC]

Not really. Just civilly pointing out you're wrong.

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brentcherry In reply to bent-art [2016-12-02 22:20:33 +0000 UTC]

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bent-art In reply to brentcherry [2016-12-03 13:43:59 +0000 UTC]

Huh? Is that supposed to convey meaning or just add another post to the discussion?

If this is indeed a "last word" thing, feel free to have it. I was sick of that game in high school. The floor is yours...

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the-sonic-guys-449 In reply to ??? [2016-11-27 10:11:20 +0000 UTC]

I can imagine her saying this lol, still it is nice to have fresh faces in congress after 30 years

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brentcherry In reply to the-sonic-guys-449 [2016-11-27 10:22:34 +0000 UTC]

This was a direct quote from her concession speech the day after the election. And I agree.

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the-sonic-guys-449 In reply to brentcherry [2016-11-27 22:18:43 +0000 UTC]

Ah ok

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