mortalshinobi In reply to ??? [2014-06-25 21:06:44 +0000 UTC]

I think that depends individually.  while i went to art schools and did the anatomy studies it did not compare to trying to identify the issues myself and look up the problems myself as opposed to someone telling me "you have to draw more still life, you have to draw more fine art"
I learned very little if at all from the figure drawing studies and still lives in school as compared to looking at chosen poses myself and trying to study them.

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sleepyowlet In reply to ??? [2014-06-25 17:11:45 +0000 UTC]

Actually...I think there is no such thing as talent. There is just finding joy in doing something again and again - which means you don't mind practising a thing. The 16 year old doesn't spit out things without thinking - you just don't see how many failed attempts are crumpled up in his waste paper basket. Maybe he's just more observant than you are and has an easier time drawing what he sees because of that. Maybe his visual imagination is stronger than yours. But even these things must be trained and aren't innate.

And none of that is "talent".

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mortalshinobi In reply to sleepyowlet [2014-06-25 17:19:35 +0000 UTC]

and that observation is part of the talent friend.  observing, learning quicker, knowing how to correct if fast, these are part of what make up that talent.  i draw daily but that 16 yr old is still kicking my ass.  so you can tell me all you want talent doesn't exist and that i just need to work harder, but i don't know how much harder i can work to achieve what he has. it is a talent of learning as some others says, but it is still a type of talent.

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sleepyowlet In reply to mortalshinobi [2014-06-25 21:09:25 +0000 UTC]

I struggled along just as you did, until I met a mentor who taught me how to observe instead of just looking. It's your eyes you need to school, not just your hands - and that is something everybody can learn, to consciously observe shapes and forms. If you can do that, you can draw it too. And it's something everybody has to learn in first place, some people just learn it sooner than others through other means than art. The consciousness is shaped when we are really young. Geneticists have found out recently that almost everything, personality, certain mental predispositions, are learned, not inherited. You are born with a certain hardware, the software on it entirely depends on your surroundings. Getting that software (what you call talent) into your brain is easier when you're little, yes, but that doesn't mean you can't compensate later.

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mortalshinobi In reply to sleepyowlet [2014-06-25 21:13:29 +0000 UTC]

it simply takes more time than others.  it is that learning software in the system that is different. the "talent" as it were. talent at one thing or talent at another.  why you can be an excellent artist but suck at marketing for example, or vice versa. the understanding of each thing for a particular subject tells how well you can do and later excel at that same subject. you can compensate, but when your understanding finds difficulty it'll take far longer then some who are considered "talented" because you haven't learned the programming to excel or move beyond your current dilema.

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sleepyowlet In reply to mortalshinobi [2014-06-26 06:08:16 +0000 UTC]

Yes, that's what I said. Ergo: "talent" isn't anything that's innate, and something you can do something about (like learning how to observe, that really, really is something you can train yourself to do). It's not something you're born with. And because you *can* compensate, it doesn't really matter in the end result, because while it may take you a bit longer, you *can* get where you want to be. Actually, in the long run hard work wins out. And it's that ability to not get frustrated and stop, that love for what you do, that's the deciding factor, I think. People who are "bad" at something, who have "no talent" simply don't like doing the thing, so they don't have the inner drive to excel (not the "I-have-to-be-good-at-this-or-I'll-get-bad-marks kind of pressure, that's not what I mean).

That said, artists are always overly critical when it comes to their works. Who knows? Your view is probably skewed and you're better than you think you are. Plus, there's a buckload of stuff you have to know if you want do be a good artist, and that's something everyone, "talented" or not, has to learn. Things like anatomy, perspective, how to compose an image, which colours do what. And the only thing that depends on is how hard you're willing to apply yourself, and how available that knowledge is to you. I grew up without the internet and had a much harder time figuring stuff out, because finding decent reference material was a *pain*. Not to mention that I had to seek out artists in the flesh to teach me because there were no publicly available video tutorials for everything under the sun.

This kind of teaching material being available has had a lot more impact on my artistic evolution than "talent".

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mortalshinobi In reply to sleepyowlet [2014-06-26 06:32:30 +0000 UTC]

yeah, the videos are something new and helpful one can take advantage of for a number of things that were once unavailable.  though i still ask artist directly about a few things and then others are simply experimental.  all things you gotta' play by ear if you want to move ahead in it.  now if only marketing were so easy. heh

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Zepeda In reply to ??? [2014-06-25 16:46:12 +0000 UTC]

Talent has a lot to do with it. I can draw but I had to work hard at it my friend dosen't. He can draw anything with out referance. if he did not have this abilty he would be just like me, having to build that skill every day. I am sure everyone knows some one who can do something every well with very little effort, like math. They don't really work at it but yet they always seem to get 100's with not much help thats their talent. I undersatnd that it isn't automatic but once it kicks in it just takes off from there.

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Dragonfly22 In reply to X-DeusExMachina-X [2014-06-25 16:42:56 +0000 UTC]

Ugh, is that sarcasm?

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X-DeusExMachina-X In reply to Dragonfly22 [2014-06-25 18:01:29 +0000 UTC]

What? No! Of course not.. I was being serious..

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Dragonfly22 In reply to X-DeusExMachina-X [2014-06-26 00:55:24 +0000 UTC]

I just don't see in what universe calling someone 'talented' can be offensive. 

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X-DeusExMachina-X In reply to Dragonfly22 [2014-06-26 13:34:26 +0000 UTC]

Not offensive necessarily, just another word would usually work better. After looking at the other comments, I do see the flaw in her reasoning.

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LadyBelva In reply to ??? [2014-06-25 15:21:02 +0000 UTC]

There are people who are born with talent and people who have to work hard to make results, just that. Easy as pie.

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mortalshinobi In reply to LadyBelva [2014-06-25 16:44:40 +0000 UTC]

agreed.  i have worked years trying to develop my ability to that of some users who are half my age and i'm not a third of their level.  there is such a thing as innate ability and comprehension that may be beyond a hard worker for several years.

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LadyBelva In reply to mortalshinobi [2014-06-25 17:54:10 +0000 UTC]

Yup, also a great financial situation helps discovering and enhance any skill ^^ All the talent/skill thing is kinda complicated but easy at the same time...by the way, sure things are impossible to know

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mortalshinobi In reply to LadyBelva [2014-06-25 18:38:50 +0000 UTC]

heh. that one can be worked around.  you know all my work i do is done on regular computer paper with regular number 2 pencils and bic pens? quality tools are not a necessity but they help.  and yeah, there are things that are beyond us in learning.

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UAG In reply to ??? [2014-06-25 15:14:26 +0000 UTC]

Hard work, practice and developing a trade throughout many years are essential to even begging to understand and exploit the potential of any given form of art. (I think) With that said, I'm a firm believer of the innate talent. There's always some people who really have a let's call it "God given talent" for something... These people, once they've mastered their trades, make for amazing artists... which, I think it's not the same as "studied" artists... I think you can really feel the difference between a natural artist and a "studied" artist work.... They might both be really impressive, but the nature of the true artist lies in capturing more than rules or styles in a piece of paper, canvas, song, photo etc... They capture feelings, states of mind... vibes... appealing to more than just the primary sense stimulated by any form of art.... and that.... No school can teach you my friends.... 

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endless-spirit In reply to ??? [2014-06-25 14:45:37 +0000 UTC]

I as well think it is not just myth. For some people things come easier than for other. An example is a friend from first grade who was already able to easily pull of drawing from life (I admit I exploited it). I could not. With the years I put a lot of work into learning how to draw and paint and it is true that I am getting better. But I wonder what this classmate could do today if he had not become an alcoholic. 

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Sunrise-LoneWolf In reply to ??? [2014-06-25 14:11:21 +0000 UTC]

Very interesting article!
 However there is something that really intrigues me and I can't understand lol... I agree that what makes someone good at something, like art, isn't the "simple fact" they have "talent", but the time they spend on working for improve. The better an artist is, the more experience years and pratice they have, right? So in a logical way, one would think that an artist that have 10 years of pratice is better skilled than a 2 years one, I guess.
But so how it's possible of two artists that have exactly the same time of hard work and pratice (years of experience) to one be away better and more skilled than the other?

This is the part that makes me think that talent does exists and have influence in one's life.
 So this artist that is better must have a natural talent to it, that makes it learns faster and better than the others. Of course, since they grow and develop this talent, that is the case of artists (of all kinds).

Though I definitly agree that just the fact of having the talent doesn't magically give you these "superpowers" so you are born alreayd knowing how to do something. Instead I guess you must work IN ORDER to "activate" this talent. Maybe there are a lot of people who have talent for something but don't know and so don't work with it.

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Dragonfly22 In reply to Sunrise-LoneWolf [2014-06-25 16:54:42 +0000 UTC]

Of course it exists. It's called genes.  Ever heard of multiple types of intelligence?

Indeed, talent does exist and it's the one factor that can tip the balance between choosing to be a doctor or a physicist. And while I do understand the purpose of the article is to provoke thought and encourage meaningful criticism rather than the inane "OMG this is so beautiful!"  to-go-comments, disregarding the existence of talent despite the massive evidence against it is just ridiculous. 

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Dragonfly22 In reply to Schwaiger [2014-06-25 17:16:09 +0000 UTC]

Hell, I couldn't have said it better myself!

As an artist, I couldn't ever imagine another artist reading a comment "You're so talented" and be offended. I mean how does that happen? And what type of comment should we expect anyway? Something like "Wow I can see by your work that you have clearly invested a great deal of hard work on this. It turned out fantastic." maybe?

Personally I don't care people appreciating how much effort or time or whatever I put into my creations.  If anything I care about constructive criticism. And really, at the end of the day I just do whatever I'm passionate about. And if someone wants to think i'm a talent, my skills come from thin air or I'm a bloody witch, as long as they like my work, then that's great. 

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EmisBakery In reply to Schwaiger [2014-06-25 14:56:43 +0000 UTC]

Amen

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Flittr In reply to EvelineVdp [2014-06-25 15:55:32 +0000 UTC]

I completely agree with your two bits about interest in topics. If its not there you don't get far trying to do art, or in any other avenue for that matter.  

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FranciscoSJC In reply to ??? [2014-06-25 13:25:01 +0000 UTC]

So true, it kills me when in person they call me that or "you're just as your father, you heir his draw skills". I've heard this even from my family, and it kills me, because I always want to scream to people "I worked my ass in being so skilled in this! I hadn't heir anything from anyone!"

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Basement-Aviator In reply to ??? [2014-06-25 13:24:02 +0000 UTC]

I call bullshit.

I've been drawing longer, and more, than a good friend of mine, but I'm still not on her level and probably never will be. Another friend can't even make a good-looking stick figure, and this sounds bad, but no amount of practice will make him godly at drawing.
I remember being asked in school, "How are you so good at drawing?" Not gonna be humble, I was a better artist than a lot of my classmates, but I don't know how I was better than them. I didn't practice at all, and I didn't read "how-to-do-art" books.

Now, I've gotten as good as I'm ever gonna be. I've reached the limits of my talent. I practice a lot, but I see I'm just not going to ever be on the level of artists with more talent. I'm about to try and move on from art and finish an online programming course instead. That's something actually useful. Programming is simple: you learn what each command does and then type it in to make what you want. Art doesn't work that way.

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Cydnee-B In reply to Basement-Aviator [2014-06-25 13:54:56 +0000 UTC]

'Talent' is often misunderstood as 'understanding'. People improve on their skills by practicing yes, but you can draw the same character over and over again and it wouldn't be any better than the first. Why? Because you need to realize what have you been doing wrong and how to improve it. You need to notice your flaws such in how you draw anatomy (oh his shoulders are too small, and this foot is too big compared to the other), use colors (this is too strong of a red as a more greyish-red will fit the tone of the picture), execute a technique (this area looks too smooth, i'll try to use a more rough brush next time), and so on....

There will be people who understand art better than others, just like in school when there will be classmates who grasp a certain subject better than you. You may need extra help like lessons (as i've taken art classes and learned things that i wouldn't ever learn on my own), and you have the internet at your hands to look up references, tutorials, free lessons, and even feedback/critiques from art communities!

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Basement-Aviator In reply to Cydnee-B [2014-06-25 14:39:14 +0000 UTC]

Talent IS a predisposition to understand a subject better. Some kids are better at math. That's a talent.
I draw this character all the time, because he's cool and there's no good art of him, and I never completely like how it turns out. I know exactly what's wrong with it every time, but my hand lacks the physical ability to get it right. I understand anatomy but can't draw good anatomy.

Lessons? No thanks. I don't want to go back to high school and paint shitty still lifes with Tempera.
Tutorials can be useful, but a lot of techniques boil down to this skill of their users.
Critiques and feedback are very, very hard to get.

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Cydnee-B In reply to Basement-Aviator [2014-06-25 22:46:31 +0000 UTC]

'Talent' is learning. Some people learn faster than others. What one needs is patience and
even Masters use help for themselves. If you visit one's studio I brt you thry have a library of references and guides because they are still learning (and often thin they're not good enough yet).

In highschool I drew stilllife as well and thought it was boring as hell. Now I see how benefitial it was for me and I want to go back in time and kick myself for slacking off. And I admit I wasn't grasping everything my teacher showed me. All I wanted to do was draw anime art all day.
If you're looking for critiques, DA is probably the worst place to look for it unless you have willing followers. There are better websites for it.

I am no one to stop you from changing your career choice or how you think of what talent is. So what ever you do I wish you luck.

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Basement-Aviator In reply to Cydnee-B [2014-06-26 12:12:38 +0000 UTC]

We all use references and such, but some people are just predisposed to get more out of them and properly draw what they're attempting.

I want to draw mecha and landscapes. Don't see how drawing fruits will benefit straight lines.
What other sites?

Same to you.

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Cydnee-B In reply to Basement-Aviator [2014-06-27 06:15:37 +0000 UTC]

No one who never has held a pencil before can sit there and draw say a flower decently. The predisposition comes from experience and learning.  Finding out how do you learn best and the two most general paths are learning from another, or going at it yourself by trial and error. The latter one is the longer route because you make mistakes that everyone makes, and a good instructor (friend/family/teacher) will guide you past those mistakes so you can develop quicker. You did say you didn't practice or used guidebooks in high school and that does put you at a disadvantage against those who practiced hours every day for years.

I used to attend an art college and my major was sequential arts (pretty much comics and story boarding). But no matter what major you were, even if your major had nothing to do with drawing such as visual effects or fibers/knitting, you still had to take pre-required classes on how to draw (yes still lives and usually-naked models), how to use different mediums even if you'll never use it ever again (like stinky expensive gouache), and art history (i hate history in general). But my two years there had taught me that if I wanted to be better, I'd have to do things I don't want to do to get there.

There's more to drawing fruits on a table than just drawing fruits on a table. Its hardly ever about the fruits at all. It about placement, foreshortening, overlapping, perspective, size relationship... For example Where light falls on one fruit, how does the shadow fall on the fruit behind it? Learning these things helps you move on to bigger more complex objects like your mechas. If you can draw say an apple leaning against a watermelon, you can replicate that image but with a character leaning against a tank instead. If you can draw the apple and watermelon from different angles, you'll be learning how to keep the proportions consistent through each drawing (with practice of course). And you can translate this skill to drawing your character in relation to the large tank in various illustrations, because no one wants to see the character get smaller or bigger in different drawings when its in the same picture touching the tank.

img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20… I've noticed you made a giant journal with halo 4 concepts... this is a good example on how size relationship in figures work, because thanks to the size of the human figures and the larger vehicle we can tell the buildings around them are huge, and we are view thing them from a good distance.

img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20… this one isn't highly detailed and is only in black and white, but you can tell what is closest to us is what's dark/black, and whats farthest away like the moon/planet is light grey/white. That's that sense of overlapping and placement.

img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20… I can bet my right hand that this artist had gone out and seen actual stones of these shapes and rock formations, studied and doodled them numerous times until he was satisfied (or sick of looking at boring rocks) before finally rendering the stones' texture and shape to look like what was in the picture. And again about placement and size relationships. If we didn't have that building right there as a reference to size, we'd assume those stones would be much smaller. Idk if you're a pokemon fan, but everyone thought Charizard was a HUGE pokemon, until if you check the pokedex which compares it to the pokemon trainer, you can see its only 5'7"/1.7 m. Its that size relationship. (the anime speaks differently, but its hardly ever canon to the game counterpart).

How did this/these artist(s) learn all of these magical rules? Were they born with it? The Talent gods blessed them with understanding? No, not really... Most likely from drawing some boring fruit on a table years ago in a boring art class that they didn't understand why at first. And it probably took them some months to a year to understand how useful it was themselves.

Sorry for the text. Btw good places to find critiques are in forums more often than not. Conceptart.org is a good place in my opinion. But if you find even a small group of honest friends, you'll get somewhere.

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Basement-Aviator In reply to Cydnee-B [2014-07-01 02:07:33 +0000 UTC]

Maybe part of the problem is I have no clue how to "practice" art.
Until reading your comment here, I had no idea there was any point to still lives. I feel like I would've actually learned something if someone told me that we were meant to focus on shadows and positioning, not just making apples and watermelons. That's why I hate art classes— they never tell you why you're doing something or what you're meant to get out of it, and so you never learn anything.

I appreciate you using the pictures from my journal as examples... it's easier for me to see a concept in the context of something I'm familiar with. My favorite thing about those paintings (and the games) is their sense of massive scale... you pointed out that it comes from having figures, etc. as reference points. I'll remember that carefully.
Yeah, I was one of the people who thought Charizard was huge. The lack of scale in battle sprites is confusing.

I checked out conceptart.org and there are some pretty useful forum threads around there. Thanks a lot for telling me.

No need to apologize for the text. You said what had to be said.
I'm sorry for the delayed reply. I haven't had access to a keyboard until now.

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Cydnee-B In reply to Basement-Aviator [2014-07-03 03:48:47 +0000 UTC]

I'm glad you have a better comprehension now!
I have to admit, the more traditional art teachers i've come across expect you to know what they're saying and thats how i felt in highschool. My college professors though were different and had the more 'modern' approach. I wish i could go back. they were amazing.

Use all the references and don't be afraid to look up some art books too, even if they seem daunting. Hope this helps you get your faith back in improving your skills even further.

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Basement-Aviator In reply to Cydnee-B [2014-07-05 07:05:23 +0000 UTC]

You're lucky with regard to your college professors.

I have yet to come across a helpful art book, or anyone who has improved their art from reading one.
Still think everyone has a personal limit to their skills... I've been doing digital art for a year and have actually gotten much worse since when I started.

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mortalshinobi In reply to Basement-Aviator [2014-06-25 16:51:54 +0000 UTC]

agreed. i can know what is wrong with my piece but learning how to correct is difficult and you run into the same mistakes over and over.  whereas some "talented" person sees it one time and corrects it in the next pic without issue.  i'd say that is the talent of understanding the ability. and a lot of us like you and i simply don't pick up on that understanding so easily

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Basement-Aviator In reply to mortalshinobi [2014-06-26 12:14:12 +0000 UTC]

Someone who gets this.... your comment is appreciated.
Talent definitely is real.

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mortalshinobi In reply to Basement-Aviator [2014-06-26 15:17:31 +0000 UTC]

no probs

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Elise03 In reply to ??? [2014-06-25 13:06:44 +0000 UTC]

Talent is not a myth in any way, shape or form. Some people are born with the ability to do great things, others are not. Some people that are not teach themselves to do it, absolutely. But you shouldn't forget that some people are graced abilities the rest of us lack. After all, we're not all Olympic athletes, are we? And for the majority of us, no matter how hard we try, won't be. because we don't have the talent.

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Cydnee-B In reply to Elise03 [2014-06-25 14:04:15 +0000 UTC]

'talent' is understanding how to grasp and use colors, shapes, materials/mediums... Which you can learn how to do so. Good artists are good observers of life.

Just because one athlete is better than the others in their entire country (and possibly the world), does that mean the other athletes should stop trying? Nope. They keep doing it because either they love it, want to be the next best thing, or both. Art is the exact same thing. There will always be someone better than us. I can't draw horses to save my life, but looking at your gallery you have a 'talent' in drawing horses better than me because you're more exposed and interested in them than I am. You take time to notice the little details in their hairs, how their dark eyes show off light, how their bodies move, how their mane flows... I could go on and on you know!

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mortalshinobi In reply to Cydnee-B [2014-06-25 16:56:40 +0000 UTC]

actually this is inaccurate by your own statement alone.  if talent is a myth then why couldn't you draw horses to save your life? shouldn't you be able to do it with hard work?  but yet it may be like many of us, you lack that understanding that'll help you do it properly.  the 'talent' is the understanding and ability to pick up on mistakes or new techniques quickly.  you and i can see our mistakes but we'll repeat them a hundred times over before we can actually fix them properly.  while other artist can change it in one or two pieces and never repeat it again. that's where the "talent" lies.  it doesn't mean there's no hard work involved, it means that how the brain understands how to do a thing comes more easily and is picked up faster.  a talented individual who combines it with hardwork will become a master where one without that ease ability will do good work but will never be a stan lee or van goh in as short a time as they were. stan and van worked hard, but they had talent as well.  talent alone will take you so far, hard work alone will take you so far, but to excel truly and fully, you need both. if you lack one or the other then your work will stagnate and there will be a point you simply can't get farther without crossing a massive hurdle.  and that's the real problem.

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Cydnee-B In reply to mortalshinobi [2014-06-25 22:35:18 +0000 UTC]

If I applied the time and effort into drawing horses, I would be able to draw them much better than I could now, but i nver personally found a use for drawing horses due to what i apply my skills for.

Also, people have different ways of adapting and fixing errors. The usual way is by trying again and again and yes... most take longer than others, but being a slow learner does not make you any less talented. Most people don't have the patience and/or the right resources to help them improve. There have been studies and attempts at teaching groups of people how to draw and they knew nothing about art. At the end of the time learning, they weren't masters but they were so much better than in the beginning.

And Van Gogh was never popular during his time alive. No one appreciated his 'talent', but he never stopped drawing. He was not considered a 'Master' until way past his death. So, what made people at that time not consider him 'talented', unlike now?

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mortalshinobi In reply to Cydnee-B [2014-06-26 00:07:51 +0000 UTC]

for van goh, probably just a matter of taste.  you'll see it often with who is chosen as winner in da contest and many will often disagree. part talent/skill/practice and part just damned luck you have the style that the employer looks for and enjoys.
and yes, you can reach the "level" someone else can, but will you have the time to employ it and get where you want in time?  it becomes a difficulty when it is something you'd like to live off of and not simply for fun.  to do as a hobby i think people don't worry so much about the ability but when they take it more seriously and still find themselves competing against those who aren't taking it so seriously and yet pick up the learning so much faster, it is quite disheartening.

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iMariposa In reply to ??? [2014-06-25 12:37:22 +0000 UTC]

Thanks for this journal! I never really considered this before, as I often praise other artists for their "talent"; I'll be sure to word my compliments differently next time! On the other hand, this is heartening to those of us (myself included) who have grown up believing that people are given different 'gradients' of talent, and that there's a limit to how great we can get. Again, thanks for the insight!

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kuschelirmel-stock In reply to ??? [2014-06-25 12:35:38 +0000 UTC]

and then there are those who think that hard work alone will get them wherever they want to be. Which in most cases is utter bullshit - some skills/talent is needed to begin with. You can't turn shit to gold

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The1WhoSees In reply to ??? [2014-06-25 12:32:51 +0000 UTC]

Talent IS a myth.  It doesn't EXIST.

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Another-Person In reply to ??? [2014-06-25 12:26:13 +0000 UTC]

My sentiments exactly. As a musician, when someone calls me talented, or naturally gifted, I want to retort, "Bullshit. This is the result of thousands of hours of arduous practice!" The work that is required for mastery of any craft doesn't get its due in society.

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