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ChrisMasna — Interesting
Published: 2015-11-15 13:52:12 +0000 UTC; Views: 1756; Favourites: 17; Downloads: 2
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Description
I've read a discussion like this on Twitter and I'm finding difficulties to think of a counter-argument. If you don't endorse X set of ideas that form part of the core of an ideology/group, why would you still identify yourself as part of that group?This MUST be applied to ALL religions/dogmas. This example today is obviously meant to provoke everyone.
Discuss.
On a personal note, not directly related to this image, I do think Islamophilia is becoming a real problem these days. You speak about Christianity's crimes through history and why we need a secular society (as I've been doing for years) and no one bats an eye. You criticize Islam and suddenly you are the worst scum on earth. Hypocrisy much?
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Comments: 13
its because of islamophobia, which is when dumbasses go around to american muslims, call them terrorists, and harass them for the dumbest reasons.
"They're muslim so they must be with ISIS!!!!!!!" no dumbass, they were born in america stop stereotyping people.
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I think the main point is that while the majority of Muslims would say they are peaceful and would "condemn" those who carry out the atrocities (for a pretty good daily rundown of all the atrocities, go to thereligionofpeace.com ), the truth is that when ISLAMIC organizations and Middle-East-based journalistic organizations poll the masses, there is overwhelming SUPPORT for their actions. In other words, they ALL See it as the right way to go, but they are sure glad someone ELSE is getting their hands dirty, or, if you will, bloody.
I will ONLY believe that there ARE "moderate" Muslims when I see one of two things:
a) either the Islamic powers-that-be (or strong populist voices in the Islamic World) actually try to DO something (physically, militarily, etc) to destroy the "radicals" who are "giving their religion a bad name," or
b) they (the Islamic powers-that-be) actually share RELEVANT information with those who are trying to stop them.
The problem with these two vain hopes is that when you look at the Koran the way a Muslim looks at the Koran, all the killing, the terror, the beheading, the hatred is actually JUSTIFIED and ENCOURAGED by their Scriptures, and by the principles of abrogation and the authority of the hadith, we're actually lucky it's not worse ALREADY. But its GONNA get worse, you can bet on that.
Two of the most DECISIVE events in the West's defense against the Muslim hordes of past centuries were the Siege of Vienna, on September 11, 1683, and the Battle of Zenta, on September 11, 1697 [which led directly to the Treaty of Karlowitz, which effectively ended Ottoman control in Central Europe]. It has been said by many scholars that the date of 9/11 was chosen as a way of showing the Islamic world that they hadn't forgotten, and are prepared to avenge those defeats.
I believe the same thing happened on Friday: On NOVEMBER 13, 1918, the Allied Occupation of Constantinople (major player: FRANCE) began, which signalled the end of the CENTURIES-old (Islamic) Ottoman Empire. I would not doubt AT ALL that the date was CHOSEN SPECIFICALLY to send a message to France and the rest of the Western world that THE ISLAMIC OCCUPATION OF THE WEST has begun, signalling the end of something else...but then, as soon as the "Syrian Refugees" started surging over the borders of the west, we knew the occupation was beginning, didn't we?
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I totally agree with you and find these other comments on here disappointing. I'm guessing the other commenters have never even read a single page of the Quran and all their knowledge of Islam and Muslims from across the planet is based purely on politically correct media and a few nice Muslims that they have met in life.
Let's start with the Quran. I began reading the Quran earlier this year to procrastinate. I'd heard from a fellow liberal (keep in mind that liberal here in the US is about as liberal as conservatives in Europe) that supposedly the Quran is a hate filled book with supposed vitriol against the infidels on nearly every page (that liberal is Bill Maher, by the way). After reading the first 250 verses or so of the Quran, I found that while Maher might have exaggerated a bit, he was certainly right on the basic concept. About half of what I read was distasteful condemning of the infidels. & I've seen verses from later on describing in detail how to cut off infidel heads & whatnot.
There is undoubtedly a lot of goodness & beauty in the Quran; I'm not denying that. But there's also a strong message to condemn & decapitate infidels till there are none left. Politically correct westerners stand shocked @ ISIS's action. Yet if you actually read the Quran, there'd be no shock @ all. Everything they've done & everything they plan to do you can read about yourself in the Quran.
For all you western ignoramuses who think the nice Muslims you've met represent Islam worldwide, put your head out of your butt & do some research. There've been numerous polls conducted regarding Islamic sentiments worldwide, & they are increasingly disturbing:
www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04…
www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pag…
Worldwide, a large minority, if not the majority, of Muslims support Sharia law or at least hold terrible views of women, gays, Jews, etc. If you don't believe me, go to Saudi Arabia, go to Iran, Egypt, Jordan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkey, etc. & don't go to a university and think you've seen it all. Go to the rural places & the politicians. Turkey's own president Erdogan has explicitly said that in their religion, women hold no place other than motherhood. & when you're in these countries, bring a gay or Jewish friend, or a female friend dressed in miniskirt, & see what happens.
Finally, you politically correct western liberals are part of the problem. You remain entirely ignorant or @ least ignore the true state of Islam worldwide and try to claim the real threat is "Islamophobia." Well, if you'd actually read the Quran, you too would fear Islam. & don't pull that "but what about Christianity" crap on me. Christianity used to be just as awful, if not worse than, Islam. But that was in the Middle Ages. In 2015, only one religion will kill you for drawing a cartoon, writing a book, or saying the wrong thing. If you think that several hundred or thousand people being offended is far worse than the millions of women, gays, Jews, etc. being physically persecuted or decapitated across the planet, you should stop reading this, do some research, & use your head for once. Your cries of "racist" & "bigot" only fellates ISIS even further, as millions suffer around the world. Islam hurts moderate Muslims the most (don't believe me? Go to Saudi Arabia), & as we saw on Friday, we westerners are putting ourselves at risk by being blind & throwing the words "racist," "bigot," "Islamophobe" like monkeys throwing poo. If you want to help moderate Muslims, how about freeing the ones in Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc.?
// End of Rant
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I don't think using the Quran is a good example because one could equally equate the Bible with Christians. There is a lot of unpleasant stuff in the Bible justifying rape, genocide, sexism, homophobia etc. but of course most Christians have nothing to do with this kind of stuff and find it just as unacceptable as anyone else.
I also think its worth considering that the West has only very recently overcome its racist, homophobic, sexist ideologies. Only 50 years ago attitudes were very different and pockets of such attitudes still exist. We can't expect everywhere to change at exactly the same point in history. There are groups fighting such oppression, the women's group RAWA in Afghanistan springs to mind, that are working for change. And of course bombing the f*ck out these countries does nothing to help those fighting injustices there. It's the most oppressed that usually suffer the most and the fascists that rise to power in desperate times.
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I don't understand what your first paragraph is trying to say. Equating Christians with the Bible is an incredibly provincial parity for anyone to make. The big difference between Christianity and Islam today is that while Christians worldwide have relinquished the dark passages within the Bible, a VERY large minority, if not the majority of Muslims in Muslim countries (& even in countries like Russia) still are Quran literalists. I've provided the Pew surveys as evidence. Further evidence came after Iran added Salman Rushdie to its kill list for all eternity (literally) & after the Charlie Hebdo attacks.
The amazing culture gap between the US & the UK continues to amaze me. "Overcome" is stretching it quite a bit here in the US. Homophobia is still fairly prevalent in more conservative states, & racism is still a systemic virus within our police departments. Glad to confirm that the UK has moved beyond such backwards ideologies.
The problem is though that we can't wait forever for large swaths of the Muslim world to grow up out of the 7th century. After listening to British writer Douglas Murray discuss this with American writer Sam Harris (soundcloud.com/samharrisorg/on… ), I think he's right that ultimately this giant culture and human rights gap between Quran literalists & moderates/reformers will likely lead to war soon within the Muslim world. Ultimately though, I feel that here in the West, there is nothing we can do to stop this. The Quran was written in a way that made such a gap inevitable millennia later. I'd actually advocate inciting the inevitable war at this point. After it is over, Islam will undoubtedly be purged of its wickedness the way Christianity was. Until then, millions of apostates, gays, Jews, Muslim women, etc. will continue to suffer. It's a sad fact that it has come to this. Christianity's purge took centuries but was centuries ago. In 2015, Islam's purge will likely be soon, very fast, & very violent.
Yes, & that is why we must continue to support the moderates / reformers as much as possible. Yeah, I agree that the West's current military policies are doing nothing against ISIS & are a waste of valuable resources. Hopefully, none of our leaders take ISIS's propaganda bait & enter a ground war... Yep, the aforementioned apostates, gays, Muslim women, etc. sadly will suffer the most until the great purge. Fascists rising to power? What's terrifying is that it's happening both in the Muslim world & possibly beginning here in the US with the rise of Trump...
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I'd also note that you're the only person so far to use the words "racist" and "bigot". Are you ascribing those terms to me? Or insinuating that I think that of you? If so, why? And did you mean to write "fellates"? I get the feeling you mean conflate or inflate. I suppose fellate could be used in this context but it seems to jarr with the rest of your prose and debating style (the former seems fine to me, latter is not to my liking). And what is "Islam hurts moderate Muslims the most" supposed to mean? You mean extreme or fundamentalist Islam hurts moderate Islam? Surely no-one here is defending extreme interpretations of the religion? (I'm not a huge fan of the moderate aspect either which, as you point out, preaches intolerance).
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No, I am not ascribing or insinuating. When did I ever do that? No, I meant fellate. "Islam hurts moderate Muslims the most." Look @ Malala. Watch this video:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWNv97…
Read this letter from a Pakistani woman:
www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2014/…
Read this from the WHO on female genital mutilation:
www.who.int/mediacentre/factsh…
I think we agree on a lot more than you think & have the same goals. Yes, I'm vitriolic, but that's me. I just find it disappointing that your first response to this picture is to defend ideas, books, & imaginary feelings rather than care about real human lives across the planet. Think about this for a bit. I hope we can be on the same side here instead of debating how to be liberal.
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Hmm, it's curious that you dislike poo-throwing but are willing to "guess" that I'm ignorant, gullible, and PC. I've merely pointed out some of the positive aspects of these institutions, Islam being among them, but we're discussing all of them if you remember the third sentence in the description. You've rightly highlighted some of the dangerous and negative aspects of these creeds (you focus on Islam, which at this point in history is, on balance, the most backward and dangerous of them all imo). What "disappoints" you about the fact that I've chosen to point out some of the positive influences of these mass-belief systems? Systems that spawned and supported law, art, science? Is discourse offensive to you?
I've read some of the Quran. Some of the Torah, some of the Bible too (haven't explored any of the non-judeo-christian books of religion). Dropped them all after a few dozen pages, as I do all literature that doesn't catch my interest after a fair chance (assuming I'm reading for pleasure), so you can be disavowed of the notion that I form my views based on gutter media and my own limited circle of acquaintances. I doubt you will be though, you don't seem the type.
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I called you an ignoramus. That's it. You're as ignorant of the rest of what's in the Quran as me. Don't put words in my mouth. No, discourse does not offend me. What's disappointing is your first response after round 140 are slaughtered is to defend ideas, books, & feelings, rather than human lives. You don't know me, & I never referred to you personally getting your views from media.
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I don't know where this idea of Islamophillia is coming from. Of course terrorism is evil, and the sects of Islam that condone it or enable it are disgusting. But Islam is a huge religion, with many different interpretations, and just because sect is abhorent dosen't mean all of them are. To put it simply, the reason people are touchy about people pointing out crimes committed in the name of the Islamic faith is the way they are perceived. When a Christian commits a horrible crime (such as the Westboro Baptist Church, or pedophiliac preists) they and those who enable them are blamed, when a Muslim commits a horrible crime the entire religion, and the more than a billion people who practise it, are all blamed for it.
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Some thoughts
Pretty sure they go to mosque each week (I sometimes hear my muslim friends say "Saw Jimmy at mosque yesterday" etc).
Talking about the wrongs of a whole way of life is kind of touchy as it's happening now (as opposed to christianity's bullshit which is historical as far as some people are concerned).
Do you identify with capitalism as the best system so far? (I do). Do you not think it's horribly fucked up in some ways? Do you acknowledge the millions of lives ruined and wars fought? (non-religious wars). Do you acknowledge some of the many positive aspects of a lot of these creeds and dogmas that have essentially bound our societies and brought us progress over the millenia? And the comfort and strength that these systems give to many millions of essentially good people?
I'm agnostic, I can't pretend to have any answers to the grand questions. I sometimes dislike the anti-religion crowd more than the religious nutters. They seem just as certain in their infinite ignorance but often more smug about it all.
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