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DarkspearDevil — What I left behind...
Published: 2010-11-15 06:46:09 +0000 UTC; Views: 6076; Favourites: 104; Downloads: 33
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A drawing that has been sitting around for a long time. I've worked on it off and on, but the fast coming of Cataclysm made me want to go back and finish some old Warcraft drawings. So here goes!Jonmarc Wolvenskorn, my significant other's concept for a Forsaken hunter.
He used to be a Theremore Isle guard and was married to a night elf woman. They lived together in Dustwallow Marsh near Theremore. His son, Trent, is half-human, half-night elf and about 2 in the left image. He is trying to tell daddy that he wants to be a paladin just like him. This is just before Jonmarc is sent off to Northrend to fight the Lich King and his Scourge army.
The picture on the right is after he fell in Northrend and was raised as Forsaken. He spent some time with the Vrykul and adopted the way of a hunter. His puppy's name is Martris. He adapted to life as an undead surprisingly well, though he still thinks about returning to his family to see his wife and son once again.
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Comments: 58
He was a fun little cutie 
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When they announced the new Race/Class combinations before Cataclysm I was hoping for Forsaken Paladins for this very reason. You can imagine my disappointment.
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I feel the same way! I think if a race can be a priest, they should be able to be a paladin. It only makes sense.
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So why are there no night elf paladins?
While I see where your coming from, the Forsaken priests worship a bastardised version of the Light called the Forgotten Shadow. Obviously Blizzard was counting on Undead priests all going Shadow.
The point is, being a paladin requires that one have strong belief in the Light and, lorewise, most Forsaken think the Light abandoned them at the moment of truth and accept only religions that emphasise the strength of an individual. It just wouldn't make sense for a large group to suddenly have an epiphany of faith.
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If that were so, however, they would not allow Forsaken Priests to do anything BUT shadow. But seeing as how they CAN choose to do Heal spec, or rely on the Light (or in this case the Forgotten Shadow) for their power in other words, they should also be able to be Paladins. A Light reliant priest and a Light reliant paladin need the same level of belief. Replacing Light with Forgotten Shadow should not change the way that power is expressed.
I understand why Blizzard didn't do it, but a state of mind is not racial. They show that all the time with NPCs of the same race in different groups. I mean, a forsaken can be in the Silver Hand and yet another can be a Twilight Cultist. Many Forsaken share a belief set, but it is not universal by any means.
I, personally, think if a race can be a holy priest (a priest of the Forgotten Shadow), they should be able to also be a paladin of the Forgotten Shadow as well. It only makes sense.
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But such individuals could only get their way on a larger scale with the consent of their leader. The Forsaken, for all intents and purposes, are still undead. Would their leader really allow a large number of an order that would basically allow them to destroy the undead?
And while Forsaken do join the Argent Dawn and similar groups, an official, flaunting-it order of paladins just isn't the Forsaken's style. It's made abundantly clear in Cataclysm that the Forsaken play fast and loose with the rules of the Horde. Garrosh made it abundantly clear that the Forsaken Blight could not be used at full strength and anyone engaging in dishonorable conduct could face execution if their crimes were great enough. Despite this, Sylvanas completely disregards his rules, using the full strain and resorting variably to torture, raising people as undead against their will and kidnap and ransom to achieve victory. No reasonable paladin organisation could condone such acts; the Scarlet Crusade (a bunch of zealots) is the only such organisation to display such tendencies. In fact, the Argents are beginning to watch the Forsaken very closely. I just don't see it happening.
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Ok, lemme clarify. I never said I thought Blizzard would introduce this as a playable class for Forsaken, I never really had that idea. I was just musing on a theoretical level really.
Firstly, Paladins do way more than just kill Forsaken. Also, as you said yourself, the Forsaken priests don't really even follow the 'Light' anymore as if were, but a bastardization of such and yet it works on basically the same mechanics. Paladins, in my mind, would work the same way. So, in essence, it would not be exactly the same as if the Forsaken were using the Light, but would draw their power from the shadow and take a more hard-hitting, heavily armored role as a faith-based warrior.
I also never said that the Forsaken would form their own order. I am speaking Lore-wise on an individual basis. I don't think there would be many Forsaken paladins, but the basic principal is Priests and Paladins use the same source of power (whether that is the Holy Light or the Forsaken Shadow) and if you allow one, you should allow the other for a particular race.
Politics should not play into this at all unless you are assuming that as Forsaken Paladins cropped up, that they would be actively hunted and eliminated, which doesn't make sense to me. Classes, to me, have a certain element of innate talent and so, the parties in control of a race would have very little control over whether paladins popped up in the Forsaken or not. It would just happen.
I think a good compromise would not be making this a playable class for Forsaken, but perhaps introducing a few NPCs that were Paladins. That would show it was possible. Just like mixed race characters are impossible as playable characters, but they exist in lore.
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You may not have noticed, but every playable race that can be a paladin has its own organisation. To wit:
Humans/Dwarves: Knights Of the Silver Hand
Draenei: Hand of Argus
Blood Elves: Blood Knights
Tauren: Sunwalkers
They all have to start somewhere don't they?
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I have noticed, but seeing as how I would not anticipate MANY Forsaken Paladins, I do not think an organization would be necessary or logical. I do, however, see them being the heavy-handed protectors of the Priests of Forgotten Shadow. They would not really need their own group.
In the same right, there should be a Paladin-like (or faith-based warrior) class for Trolls based around voodoo (Shadow Hunter if you prefer).
All I'm saying is: if Blizzard has allowed spell-casters from a certain faith for a certain race, they should also be able to attain a melee based class from the same faith. It only makes sense.
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But that begs the question then why there aren't Night elf paladins. The answer, much like a child, is both short and simple:
Night elf priests, a role formerly restricted to females (before the Vanilla WoW period), worship Elune and use the Moon as their source of light; as such, paladins in the traditional sense of the word are impossible. Also, should it not then follow that anyone who has priests also has a paladin class? Sometimes it just doesn't work that way.
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But you see, I think it should be true. I DO think anyone who has priests should be able to have paladin unless their faith is ABSOLUTELY pacifistic. And even then, priests still have offensive attacks, so that doesn't follow either.
And why exactly would that make Night Elf paladins impossible? Paladin in it's broadest term refers to a paragon of chivalry, or a strong defender/supporter of a cause going back to the peers of the court of Charlemagne. Over time it became more known as a label for a warrior of faith. In a fantasy setting, faith often has a very real source of power (such as in Warcraft). If the faith has a source of power, then followers can use that power in various ways to defend it.
So the Moon is the Night Elf source of light, so? It is still a source and as such, can provide power to it's priests....and paladins. If Blizzard chose to give paladins to all races who had a religion, who had priests, they would be totally justified in doing so. It would make sense to me.
So, i think everyone who has priests SHOULD have paladins. I have not yet heard a convincing argument against it.
I am not saying I think they will do it, or that I want them to (though I certainly wouldn't mind). All I am saying is, if they chose to go down that path, I think it would make sense and be very logical. I would love to see more racially specific paladins for every race that has priests. (except Orc, of course, since they have neither priest nor paladin available to them. it makes sense though, since they do not really have a separate religion from shamanism)
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...You don't get it. Having paladins for every species with priest doesn't make sense not because of dictonary definitions being violated, but because it doesn't make sense because there hase to be a lore justification for it.
Warcraft II was the genesis of many of Warcrafts signature races and aspects, the paladin being among them. They were humans; in lore, it was explained they were created because the cleric units from the first Warcraft were too frail, being unable to defend themselves in a skirmish. Thus the Church brought a group of the most devout knights - then units on horseback with shields and warhammers - and taught them how to wield the Light in magic. This trend continued through Warcraft III to the paladins we know today.
Soon enough, the dwarves liked the idea and were starting to copy.
Then the draenei arrived on the scene; the naaru had instructed them in the ways of the Light long before, and like the Church of the Holy Light they new priests could not fight on the level of knights - thus the Vindicators.
And the blood elves, when they were high elves, believed in the Light, as shown by the high elven priests we got in Warcraft III, and some continued to do so, though as time went on their view of the Light became increasingly dark, seeing it as as a source of power more than anything else. They were given in-depth lore evolution over the course of Patch 2.4 and beyond.
Finally, the tauren. While of the many races this one is obviously a source of debate given that it's a Cataclysm feature, Wrath of the Lich King featured a druid (Tahu Sagewind) and a warrior (Aponi Brightmane) discussing the night elves' use of the moon's light as druids and priests and whether they should be balancing it out by looking to the sun. While the night elves see the moon as as a goddess - Elune - the tauren see the moon - whom they call Mu'sha - as the left eye of the Earthmother, with the sun - An'she - being the right. And lo and behold, come the next expansion...
Tauren priests (the Seers) and paladins (the Sunwalkers) appear.
What excuse would there be for the trolls, who worship gods outside the Light or a similar body? It's more or less been stated that they are priests of an entirely different kind than the ones the Alliance know about.
And as for the night elves and gnomes, there are never gnomes personally engaging in warrior combat without a mech suit in World of Warcraft, while if you look carefully, you'll see that any night elf npc you meet who isn't a sentinel or or a priestess (no male priests except players for some reason) is a druid or, in ultra-rare circumstances, a mage. These races have priests, but they aren't considered warrior-worthy. One uses technology to compensate, the other uses nature, stealth and cunning.
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You seem to think I know nothing about lore by spouting facts at me for what, shock value? Proving that you have been playing longer? I know quite a bit about lore, though I will not profess to be any kind of expert (except about a couple of races). If anything you have proven my point correct by this post.
All the races that have developed paladins out of logic and necessity. Why, then, would the other races not follow that path as well? It only makes sense. People never thought we would see Forsaken hunters, etc either, but Blizzard decided it was believable as a developing class/race combination.
Also, in response to the troll post, I think you are looking at the definition of the word 'paladin' in too narrow a scope. Paladin is basically a holy warrior. If you look outside of warcraft to other fantasy titles (since the word paladin has been around long before warcraft) paladin can be interperted more broadly. Troll paladins would be Shadow Hunters. They use the source of their power, the Loa, to accomplish feats in battle. This would not be all white armor, hammers, and shields, but that does not mean they wouldn't be paladins. (Troll lore IS something I know a great deal about, especially since the latest novel shed LOTS of light on the Loa and how they work and it makes perfect sense). They would not be called paladins by characters, but players would know that is essentially what they were. They would be Shadow Hunters. Paladin does not traditionally DEFINE the power source as a particular divinity, but allows the person/race to choose for themselves. The Holy Light seems to be slightly different among the races (not all, but surely some.)
Lots of this is great basis for knowledge, but most of it is in the past. In current gameplay and story, gnomes fight directly quite a bit (without mech suits). Though this is in the spirit of player balance and equality, it cannot be directly discounted as far as lore goes. Lore changes, it evolves along with the game. You cannot base all idea off of the first versions of things. The emergence of Tauren Sunwalkers just recently is sure proof of that!
I do believe we will need to agree to disagree since nothing you have said has really convinced me that I am wrong. It has been interesting debating with you, but I don't believe you have anything that will change my mind (and if you didn't think you would change my mind, I am confused as to why you are still arguing about it). At this point I am not actually sure why you started this discussion in the first place. I am always up for a friendly debate, but I think it has run it's course.
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It really has. But I think I should clarify a few things before this is over.
I didn't cite lore for shock value so much as to express the crux of my point: that everything Blizzard had done, regardless of what you or I might think, shows they do not share your somewhat flexible views of the word paladin.
I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be contrarian, but calling shadow hunters paladins? The naga and murlocs are both aquatic creatures, but you don't see me using their names interchangibly, do you?
And yes, lore evolves, but I only brought up those examples to show that Blizzard changes things based on plausible holes in lore that haven't been filled, and doesn't just make sudden and shocking changes that defy what they've told us before (except Mists of Pandaria's personality changes for Garrosh, Jaina and others; that's the only exception).
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o mai gawd this is SO sad ;-; i think the forsaken are the race that most suffer in the game, great concept and the lil human-nelf kid is cute :33
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lol, yes, I agree. They certainly do. Thanks for the comment, glad you like them!
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i seriously love this art its defenatly going to my favorites ^^
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Thanks a lot! I'm really glad you like it.
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Is there a story to go with this picture that can be read somewhere?
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Mmm, not as of yet, the character belongs to my significant other, who is the writer between the two of us. Maybe I will bug her for a story about them!
If a story goes up it will be here [link]
Thanks so much for the comment and fav! So glad you like them.
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a picture of him meeting his son and wife as a forksaen would be amazing.
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Already in my mind, I can't wait to do something like that, I just need the artistic inspiration. Thanks for the comment!
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Awww, so sad :c Amazing drawing though, it's lovely!
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Thanks so much! They will reunite though, so not all sad.
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Me and my husband always liked the idea of a forsaken hunter.
I love the fact that it shows him in both of his lives. Forsaken weren't always the zombies you see now.
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Yeah, I love getting into the character beyond the race. And I am excited to play a Forsaken hunter too.
Thanks for the comment!
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I really like this image... Not that heavy on Warcraft since WoW came out, but still, love the old lore, and this is a nice image with some interesting back-story to it. Love it.
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Thanks very much! Glad you like it.
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If only forsaken could have kept their human facial hair... for the few that still have their jaws...
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Yeah, i agree....I like certain facial hair styles. I wish trolls could have facial hair too.
Thanks for the comment!
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Hells yeah, trolls need beards too!
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I love pictures that tell a story and although this is a sad one I like the amount of depth and thought that went into it. Instant fav
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Thank you very much! It's not all sad as they will reunite in a short period of time, but that is a story for another picture.
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its so sad!!!
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It's ok, they get reunited eventually!
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I like it! The before and after aspect is touching. Great job!
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Yay! Glad you like it! I always like to hear your opinion on my stuff.
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