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#constructive #criticism #fanfiction #improvement #request #response #understanding #loudhouse #theloudhouse #twopeasinaprison
Published: 2019-02-20 19:51:03 +0000 UTC; Views: 2684; Favourites: 5; Downloads: 3
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A response to criticisms made against Two Peas in a Prison
So, as most of you probably know by now, I’ve recently started another FanFiction project, a story called “Two Peas in a Prison” focusing on Lynn Loud Junior being under the influence of dangerous sports enhancements and getting herself in trouble with the law. There’s a lot more to the story than that, but we’re only 3 chapters in, and there will likely be over 20 chapters by the time the story is done, so I won’t go into more detail concerning the story because of spoilers. That’s not the subject of this article, anyway.
Some of the feedback I have received for this FanFic has been… mixed, to say the least. It’s had a few follows and favourites, and a few short, praiseworthy comments, but there’s also been a large handful of criticisms directed at my work. Many respected users on the FanFiction.net website, such as WDGHK, ThatEngineer, Ink-Dub, Delquea and DarthWill3 have all provided a series of recurring critical arguments regarding my work. At first, I thought it was just a minor issue that only a few people had, but as I continued to upload more new chapters, it became apparent that the opinion that my FanFiction had a problem in terms of how it was written (concerning its dialogue, use of exposition and quotation speech marks) was a widely held one. At that point, I couldn’t disregard the criticisms being made anymore, so I decided to look further into exactly what they were telling me and what I needed to change about how I was writing my story for the criticism to be resolved.
The aforementioned users make some very interesting points. I’ve had multiple critical statements from the user WDGHK (who regularly follows my reaction-based content on DeviantArt), who essentially tells me that my story had “clunky” dialogue, clumsy exposition which points out the obvious way too much, and the overall script format is unnecessary, as it too strongly resembles a script for a show, rather than what is supposedly expected from a typical FanFiction.
In response to this, I explained in chapter 3 of my fanfic, as you can see above, that my writing style is intended to be a combination of a TV episode/movie script, and a traditional fiction book. This is a style I intended to use because I do not intend to just write a fanfic to be a fanfic, but to be what could be adapted into an actual TV story. Something that could be made into a real episode (more accurately, an extended special or direct-to-tv movie, given the length of the story). Now, as has been quite rightly pointed out to me, it is true that my stories will never ever actually be turned into real episodes in reality. There are numerous copyright issues associated with that notion, and besides, my narratives are a fair bit darker in theme and concept than the stories this Nickelodeon cartoon would normally have in its episodes.
However, I still intended to make them resemble what COULD be, in a hypothetical reality, a real episode. As such, there is an element of script format in my writing style, if mainly to make it feel as if the stories I write could actually be part of the show and its canon, as opposed to being so far removed from it that the story is utterly pointless in terms of its meaning. Moreover, I also intend to make my writing style resemble that of a story book somewhat, like Harry Potter, etc. Mainly because this writing style has proven to work for many successful authors in the past. However, whatever my intentions may have been, the format has received criticism for being unnecessary and distracting. Even little things like my use of quotation marks has been questioned (see in the above image a comment made by DarthWill3, who actually appears to be quite a closer follower of my written works).
Other users, like Ink-Dub, have agreed with the assessment made by WDGHK. Looking at WD’s own fanfic’s, like A Second Chance, then I can see where his opinion is stemming from. In his works, he doesn’t have large paragraphs of expositional text, for example, which was one of his main criticisms against me. This would suggest that, in his view, such a use of expositional paragraphs in big lumps of text is unnecessary and even a hindrance towards the writing process. Now, his works do receive a respectable size of following and positive feedback, so his opinion should be taken into account. It is clear he favours mostly just dialogue and letting the words spoken by the characters in a story speak for themselves, without the need for expositional dialogue pointing out what the reader should already be able to take from the dialogue itself. Subtlety is key, after all. And to an extent, he’s right. Sometimes, pointless exposition in story writing is unnecessary and does cause a problem.
Except sometimes, it is necessary to use expositional text for fanfics. Not always, but sometimes, when there are scenes where dialogue alone cannot convey all the meanings, feelings, and/or eventfulness that is associated with a particular point of occurrence within the narrative. It would seem WD is simply someone who has his own style which he favours over alternatives, which is fine. But I don’t see why, when it is needed, that expositional text is an issue. I also don’t see why it’s only a problem when it comes specifically to my fanfic. Because other authors in the fandom utilise this technique and are not met with backlash.
Here’s the thing. While explaining why I write my stories the way I do, I received feedback from the very popular user ThatEngineer. Now obviously, his success in writing FanFiction speaks for itself, as his stories are some of the most well-known and beloved out of all the Loud House fanfics, so his views and advice are clearly things I need to take seriously, since he knows what he’s talking about. After telling me that my stories will never be turned into canon, which sadly, I already knew was true, he explained to me that stories intended to be written as episode scripts (most specifically, the way I said I write my stories) don’t tend to be very popular. I accepted this point of view, and decided to follow his advice. Apparently, my attempt at designing my story like an episode script was misguided and I need to alter the format, so I began to read some of the website’s most popular fanfic stories, including his own stories, Syngenesophobia and What is a Person Worth. Also, I looked at UnderratedHero’s Requiem for a Loud, and TvFan2244’s Losing Him. This was the first time in ages that I’d actually looked at someone else’s FanFiction in great detail (Admittedly, it’s been a while since I’ve actually taken a look at another person’s fanfic, as it’s not my main focus as JustSomeOrdinaryDude). All of these are some of the most favourited, followed, and reviewed fanfic stories. I did this to find out how the writing formats of these stories were, and most importantly, in what ways they significantly differed from how I write my own fanfics.
But here’s the thing. When I did exactly that, as you can see above, I find that there’s no real difference. The most successful stories actually have a strikingly similar writing format to my own.
For all the criticisms that have been made against how I write for FanFiction, from the use of quotation marks, to how I use paragraphs for exposition, to how I write the dialogue. For all those things people have held against my story, these are all the same things other successful fanfic writers have used to make their stories. Requiem, Syn, WIAPW, Losing Him, and so many other stories which have received universal praise from the online Loud House fan community, have been written in an extremely similar manner to how my story has been written. Yet, for all the praise those stories have received, my story is being heavily bashed for the same things that made those stories so highly regarded. Even WDGHK’s fics aren’t too dissimilar from my own, despite his heavy critiques against my work. The only difference being less exposition and in smaller doses, as explained previously. But nobody complained about this when UnderratedHero or ThatEngineer did it, so why is it a problem when I do?
One more thing worth addressing. I keep receiving complaints that the dialogue in my stories is “clunky” and corny” and needs to be finetuned. Okay, can I receive examples of this? Especially since, I’m not seeing any major differences in how I write my dialogue from any of the other stories I’ve taken a read of. To be sure, let’s extract a few sample lines and conduct an evaluation.
Let’s take a look at the opening few lines from my most recent chapter. The lines from the fic are Italic, while my commentary of the lines is highlighted in bold.
Lucy: "Lynn, where have you been?" she asked from her coffin as her older sister entered the bedroom and fell on her bed. This scene’s context is that Lynn had just returned from a fast paced and adrenaline filled soccer game, so Lynn was exhausted in this scene and was uninterested in engaging in conversation with Lucy, who was curious to know where Lynn had been.
Lynn: "Soccer Practice." She replied, with her head buried in her bed cover. A straightforward but nonetheless valid response.
Lucy: "Mom and Dad were really mad with you earlier! They said if you did something like that again, you'll be grounded indefinitely." In the story, Lynn had been involved in an aggressive altercation with Lori and her parents earlier that day, and this scene is Lucy mentioning the aftermath of that. Again, it’s simply a line of dialogue where Lucy tells Lynn what’s what and how her actions have consequences. Not sure why that’s considered “clunky”.
Lynn: "Whatever, I'm going to sleep. Night." She concluded, wanting the conversation to end as she had ran out of energy. Again, Lynn is exhausted, so it makes sense that she would respond with minimalist sentences in this scene, as she doesn’t wish to begin a long, in-depth conversation with her sister. So she provides a short and simple, conclusive reply to her sister’s statement.
Lucy then looked over at the shattered and exhausted sports girl, lying face first on her bed. She was worried for her sister, and she was right to be worried. This is one of those expositional sentences I’ve been talking about. The main point of this sentence is to emphasise the intentions, as well as emotional state of Lucy. While Lynn’s emotional state is clearly conveyed through the dialogue alone, Lucy’s is not necessarily. While her intention of interrogating her troublemaking sister is made clear, it is not made clear through dialogue that she is also trying to find out what Lynn has been done out of concern for her well-being, nor the fact that she is genuinely fearful or what Lynn might be getting herself into.
So, if dialogue like this is unbearably clunky, I need to understand why that is. From what I can tell, there’s nothing especially wrong with it, as it reflects on the personalities as well as emotional states of the characters in the given situational context of the relevant scene. It also gets across the information that is supposed to be made clear in the scene itself. So why is it bad, and why is it any different/worse from the dialogue that other authors use? I genuinely want to know.
To be honest, before this, it had been a while since I had last taken a read of anyone else’s fanfics, so the writing format that the majority of users were actually going with was unknown to me until now. When I decided to look at the works of other successful writers, I thought I would see something different, as opposed to similar, but alas, the works of all the best Loud House FanFictions all appear like mine. But if this is the case, the struggle I now have is, what can I take from that?
Honestly, if this is the result of my research, then there’s not a lot I can do. I’m being told to change up my dialogue, exposition and overall writing process so it is less “clunky”, “clumsy”, “corny” and just generally problematic. But I don’t see how what I’m doing is actually any different from what anyone else is doing. It’s not just me, is it? Look at the images above? The structure and writing format of all those stories look rather similar to me. So why is mine being singled out?
I must stress that I haven’t written this response as a way to be some sassy smartass who is pointing things out just to one-up anybody. That’s not what I’m doing. I appreciate that all these people who are criticising my work are only doing so because they are providing tips and advice on what changes I should make to my story. They are trying to help me enhance my work through constructive feedback, which I am thankful for. Plus, they're people with proven track records who have a right to dish out advice and constructive criticism, given their own successes. However, I am having trouble with interpreting and understanding exactly what they are telling me. Because when I’ve researched into the issue, I’ve found that these problems I’ve been told my story has… seemingly don’t exist. Because of this, there’s not a lot of action I can take to rectify any of my story’s informed problems. So, I’ll just have to carry on… I guess.
Seriously, if there are major issues, then I want to correct them. But if so, I’m going to need more explanation as to why the dialogue is so clunky/clumsily done. I’m going to need to understand why the way I include exposition is so objectively flawed, especially since well-respected authors with successful track records have implemented the same techniques. I’m going to need to understand why my story is so flawed and in what way it differs from other, more fondly looked upon fanfics. I’m going to need more than just a few vague critiques which just say and don’t justify why my story is clunky and amateurish (a word that has been used against my work, though amateurish in this context surely can’t qualify as a legitimate criticism, since we’re all amateurs as Loud House FanFiction writers. I doubt anyone’s being paid to do this sort of thing within the fandom). Because I am told my story needs work, but the evidence I’ve seen doesn’t support that conclusion.
This is my request. For anyone who has criticised my work and happens to come across this response. I don’t intend any disrespect or undermining towards your opinions, nor am I trying to be a smart aleck by pointing out what I perceive to be flaws in your advisory claims. I simply ask for more elaboration on, firstly, why the dialogue and exposition is so flawed, and secondly, what makes it differ from anybody else’s work, which appears to be the same anyway. As for my regular watchers/followers on DeviantArt, I also ask something of you. For those of you who regularly comment on my reactions, could you also read my fanfic, Two Peas in a Prison (if you haven’t done already)? So far, there’s only 3 chapters to catch up on anyway. I would like honest feedback regarding what I have written, and if there are notable problems or quirks, please feel free to tell me. But do more than that, elaborate on what you mean so I can understand and fully realise what the problems with my story are. If anyone could do that for me, I would be most grateful.
Just before I was ready to upload this written piece, I received another comment from WD (while using the username NoOriginalName101) on DeviantArt, who told me that I should stick to writing reviews and not try to make my own stories because I lack the talent. But here’s the thing, is that really the right thing to do? In most cases in life, greatness isn’t instantly accomplished. Rather, it is something that is continuously strived for, through a process of constant and often gradual improvement. That is the end result I am working towards. I don’t wish to just give up on this FF project, especially considering I’ve already spent a lot of time working on its draft version behind the scenes. Greatness has been achieved by people who didn’t just quit and move on after a rocky start, but kept working on improving until they reached heights nobody thought they would. What would I be if I just gave into criticism without doing anything to remedy the situation? Then I’d just be that guy who can criticise but can’t actually create something himself. I don’t want to be that guy, nor do I want to be a quitter. If my work needs improvement, explain to me why. Don’t just tell me to go and give up. That’s not the way it’s going to be. This is something I want to do, and I won’t just quit because some of the feedback hasn’t been as favourable as I would like at the start.
P.S. Let’s quickly go through some other subjective criticisms regarding the story itself. One thing is how it is supposedly too comedic for what is supposed to be a serious and dramatic type of plot. It wasn’t explained why that is the case, so I’m going to make an estimation and conclude it’s because I have a few lines in the story which come across as attempts at humour. Well, yes, there is the odd funny line in there, this is a fanfic for The Loud House, after all. But sometimes contrasting tones can compliment and work off one another, rather than conflict with each other. Remember, many movies in the MCU, including the more serious ones like Infinity War, have the occasional gag or moment of amusement scattered throughout their running times, while still managing to maintain a sense of seriousness and/or drama overall. That is what my fic aims to do. I don’t believe any moments or lines of humour I’ve included have destroyed the overall emotional tone or sense of seriousness of the story. Also, one person claimed the narrative was rushed. 4 chapters in, and we’re still in the set-up stage of the story, so I’m not sure why that is something my work is being accused of. Anyway, let’s hear what people have to say. Maybe I’ll now receive some new insights which will make me more aware of exactly what people mean with all these comments, since as it stands, I can’t figure out what I’m doing wrong. Then again, that’s why I’m asking. Hopefully, this request will generate the right kind of constructive feedback and advice I’m searching for. I hope I haven’t come across as unnecessarily nit-picky or somehow vindictive while writing this, but I needed to address the situation with a critical and analytical approach so as to achieve the outcome I am seeking.
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Comments: 6
ThalassoAtrox [2019-03-22 22:07:46 +0000 UTC]
Well, you chickened out on the script format in the end anyway. XD What was the point of this lengthy post then?
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Justsomeordinarydude In reply to ThalassoAtrox [2019-03-22 23:17:52 +0000 UTC]
Well, as the title of this post suggests, the point was essentially a more in-depth justification from the critics in order to achieve a greater understanding of the problems my fic allegedly has, and why they are problems which required correction. I defended my fanfiction’s strengths and explained my reasonings, and promoted constructive response from critical readers. I was never that strongly opposed to the idea of changing my format that such adjustments were off the table completely. It’s just that making such changes would require time and effort, and I needed to understand exactly why such a seemingly minor and insignificant change would deem said effort necessary.
As for chickening out? Well, that’s a rather negative way of putting it. When enough evidence was put in front of me that suggested the format was a problem in terms of reception, I simply decided to experiment with alternatives, including altering said script/story format to see if such changes would enable greater acceptance of the fic. In the end, since format complaints ceased, I decided to keep the change. Again, I'm not against changes if there is a meaningful enough benefit behind it.
Believe it or not, I’m not an arrogant douche ignorant to his own flaws. I accept my story isn’t perfect, as no story is, and if there is room for improvement, then why wouldn’t I embrace it? The only thing is, I need to understand why something is considered as such a problem in the first place, and why it is considered by so many to be big enough a deal, quite frankly, to be worth changing (especially when, keep in mind, I had already written several chapters in draft format at that point, so if I were to implement any of the suggested changes certain critics were suggesting, it would need to be important enough an issue to be worth doing).
As I said in this post, about a month ago now, the point of this was not to be nit-picky against critics, vindictive or snobbish, but simply to gain a greater understanding of the perspective of the critics and their opinions. Hence why it was called ‘Understanding FanFiction Criticism’.
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Blackgiro [2019-02-20 20:14:50 +0000 UTC]
I like your stories, but i have admit that they’re a bit clunky and corny, i mean, i’m not the best fanfic writer out there, but i think you should improve your stories, they have a lot of potential, but sadly, they often feel rushed, but practice leads to perfection, plus, you could write another types of stories that aren’t Fix fics.
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Justsomeordinarydude In reply to Blackgiro [2019-02-20 21:54:35 +0000 UTC]
Okay, that's fair enough, and thank you for the encouragement of improvement.
But what I need to understand is exactly what makes my stories clunky, corny and rushed. Can I please have an explanation as to why they are looked at in this way? Any examples?
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Blackgiro In reply to Justsomeordinarydude [2019-02-20 22:23:56 +0000 UTC]
I only had read Pushover or Payback, but i can see the problems with this fanfic, first of all, is that your story had some great potential, but you decided to focus more on Lincoln and Viribus’ relationship, second of all, there’s the fact that the ending is a bit predictable, plus, there’s some mistakes such “Lincoln is the physically weakest character”, even though he has multiple times proved to be quite strong by it own and the fanfic also is a bit cliche, we all know how is going to end and the dialogue is too corny, doesn’t look like The Loud House and looks almost like a boring and dramatic movie, for example, Lincoln saying that he had made a lot of effort to be a better brother, we all know that in this situation, Lincoln would just angrily say that he would leave this family, plus Lincoln is just as bad as his sisters, as in some episodes were shown that he doesn’t give a crap about them(e.g: Ties that bind and Mall of Duty, the former he was actually happy when he heard that his parents will get rid of his sisters and in the latter, he cares more about a fucking game than his own five younger sisters and when he lost them, he only apologized to them due to fear of getting grounded and most of the time, Lincoln is trying to avoid his sisters instead of trying to bond with them, i mean, the Loud sisters have their flaws, but at least they care about Lincoln, but there’s very few episodes where Lincoln shows to care about them) back in 2018, i used to love this fanfic, but, now i see how flawed is, i haven’t read Two Peas in a Prision yet, but i’m going to read soon.
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Justsomeordinarydude In reply to Blackgiro [2019-02-22 23:26:37 +0000 UTC]
Thanks for the feedback. You've made some specific and substantial points that I can understand. But I have some responses and explanations to those criticisms. I'll address your points in chronological order:
- "but you decided to focus more on Lincoln and Viribus’ relationship" = While there is a lt of focus on Lincoln and Viribus, due to necessity, there is still enough focus towards the relationship between Lincoln and the rest of the family in order for the arc between them to be satisfied. In chapter 2, Lincoln leaves the house after the conflict between his sisters (portrayed in a similar manner to the typical conflicts which occur between them in the show). Chapter 5 later concentrates on the sister's sense of regret and their realisation that the behaviour they display in episodes where their hostile and conflictual nature is overplayed and exaggerated beyond acceptance (like in Brawl and NSL). Chapter 6 is about them sticking their necks out to find their lost relative and eventually tracking his whereabouts, and chapter 7 is about them comfronting Lincoln and his new friends, who make it clear to them forgiveness will not be so easily earned. After Lincoln spends some time learning that his friends aren't so good after all, chapter 10 shows Lincoln recognising that despite their occassional shortcomings and notable character flaws, his sisters aren't so bad when all is said and done, and his efforts to act as an aggressive, hateful person out of spite are not worth it. Then in chapter 14, Lincoln returns to (half of) his family, and they all mutually make amends with one another. Lincoln and his older sisters and parents then later go and rescue the younger sisters from Viribus, and the bunch work together, utilising their best qualities and the strength of their character to defeat a common adversary. The story then concludes with a final chapter, showing how everyone is improving in terms of their behaviour, and are making active progress in enhancing the state of their relationship. There is enough focus that the character arc is resolved and complete. Yes, there could have been further still (and if I were making one of those overly long fanfics, then yes, I probably would have) regarding focus on Lincoln and his sisters, but what there was should have been more than enough to satisfy the needs of the character and story arc that took place, and positively portray all of the Louds.
- "the ending is a bit predictable" = In terms of the happy ending where the status quo is more or less resolved? Remember, I write my stories so that they could function as actual episodes. Yes, I know that will never happen in reality, but I still want to be able to say something like "Pushover or Payback" could be an extended special, and for it to feel like such. Even if it is a little predictable, often solid execution and entertainment value can make up for that. Many episodes of the actual show fall into this category. Furthermore, just about any story has some predictable elements, given the existence of so many cliches, tropes and techniques that are universally used among writers. It's the whole postmodern argument that 'everything is a remix' that has an everlasting prominence in media. What matters is that it's not TOO predictable, and that something interesting, fun or meaningful is done with the otherwise 'predictable' tropes used in a story.
- "plus, there’s some mistakes such “Lincoln is the physically weakest character”, even though he has multiple times proved to be quite strong" = I wouldn't say the fic goes as far as to treat him as the physically weakest character throughout. He's certainly not aggressive or dominant in the slightest, but it is clear that Lincoln has a backbone and often will stand up for himself when the situation calls for it. The story treats Lincoln as such. He isn't quick to join in the bickering in chapter 2, but does actually call out his sisters for their behaviour and then attempts to leave the house as a way to show them he's serious. As far as physical strength goes, Lincoln goes toe-to-toe with one of Viribus's cronies later in the story, and holds his own, and gains considerable fighting prowess after about a mere week of training. Either way, I wouldn't say the story treats Lincoln as overly weak or physically helpless, just a little bit passive-assertive and not especially strong by the standards of his sibling group. Compared to Lori, Lynn, or the twins, for example, he's nowhere near as rough, violent or strong as they are.
- "the dialogue is too corny" = Still not sure what people mean by that. I honestly don't see what's wrong with the dialogue. I already analysed and countered this point, as seen above.
- "looks almost like a boring and dramatic movie, for example, Lincoln saying that he had made a lot of effort to be a better brother, we all know that in this situation, Lincoln would just angrily say that he would leave this family, plus Lincoln is just as bad as his sisters" = Lincoln sometimes acting in a manner as bad as his sisters can be is something which is clearly pointed out in this story. For example, in chapter 14, after Lincoln reunites with them, he mentions that he's guilty of being selfish and scheming for his own needs to his own discredit. Earlier in chapter 10, he also reflects on this, as he comes to the realisation that both he and his family are flawed, albeit still overall good people. In addition to all that, the point of my fanfic was to highlight the strengths of the characters and their more noble qualities, so he was meant to resemble a better person here than he was in some of those examples from episodes that you had pointed out. While my story did not intend to misinterpret the character and pretend he is a saint, because he is not and so POP did not present it that way, it did mean to show his better qualities overall. You mentioned some examples of Lincoln's more selfish and inconsiderate moments, which is a good analysis, but my story does not disregard this. Yes, the story shows Lincoln making the effort to be a better brother, which makes sense in the context of the story considering his character arc in the 1st 10 chapters is about him learning that A, his sisters are better people than they're sometimes criticised of being, and B, his hostile and self-centered mentality that he overplays in the 1st 10 chapters because of the influence of Viribus is not doing him any good.
- "back in 2018, i used to love this fanfic, but, now i see how flawed is, i haven’t read Two Peas in a Prision yet, but i’m going to read soon." Well, that's a shame. Honestly, if you did once love it, I suggest reconsidering your current stance on reducing your sense of fondness towards it. If you like it, like it. Don't let any overly critical influences stop you.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to provide those criticisms. They are helpful.
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