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kevmesser — Spock vs. Vader
Published: 2005-06-02 23:50:13 +0000 UTC; Views: 6145; Favourites: 92; Downloads: 161
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The epic struggle between the Star Worlds. Who will win?! Spock's has his Vulcan neck pinch firmly in place, but is he any match for the dark power of Vader's grip?This one's for sale. $300. You know you want it.
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Comments: 101
except that Vader has armor around his neck and is about a foot-and-a-half taller than Spock at least...
just saying.
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I like both but I do have to say Vader has more abilities to his advantage in a fight, Spocks main disadvantage is he needs to get close to Vader to get the nerve pinch, however Vader could use the force to lift him in the air...also there is force choke, lets not forget the lightsaber. Spock is pretty strong and both have combat experience, so should Spock manage somehow to get close to Vader it could go either way, I'm all for superpowers (especially non-attribute based ones like telekinesis or the force) so I've got my money on Vader in this one.
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Yeah! You show him Spock!Star Wars is SO overrated!
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vader wins, the force chokes spock, and spock cant grip vader through his armor
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Spock can reach his neck cuz Vader got that plate around it.
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Spock any day.
Because Star Wars is dumb and overrated
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Oh, then you suppose Star Trek?
I'm looking forward to seeing your explanation as to why SW is any dumber than ST...
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Look, if your name was Leia, you'd hate Star Wars too.
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Let's see here:
?
Well, Spock does have the strength advantage due to his Vulcan heritage, but his technique with minds is very much discipline only and a matter of extreme meditation.
?
Vader has some physical strength, but, using his words, "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force". I'm inclined to say that ANYDAY!
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There is a slight problem with your second set of icons ;D
Spock has green blood!
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I would bet on Vader against spok any day. For one, since Vader is mostly machine i don't think the neck pinch would work.
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I got bet Spock wins I'm on team Vulcan he could give Vader a Vulcan Nerve Pinch and then shoot em with his ray gun duh!
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spock is damn azz fucko go lord vader and palpatine
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Luke will step in and save his Father thus turning to the darkside and changing the whole outcome of the universe......uh, I was in a bizarro world alternate universe......
Vader winds hands down!
Great concept! I love this!
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hahhah very funny
but too xpensive for my room
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did you miss vaders armor plates?
no, spock is PWND.
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"The Force has a strong effect over the weak-minded." --Obi-Wan
Somehow, I don't think Spock fits there. So he wins.
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That's the most blatant out-of-context quoting I've ever seen, man!
How does this even make sense to you?
How about all those times we've witnessed the Force affecting INANIMATED objects, lock rocks?
By your logic SW rocks are actually sentient beings, albeit weak-minded!
Specifically, Ben was talking Force mind-tricks - they work only on weak-minded individuals (evidently).
Thing is, it's not in Vader's custom to use mind-tricks in combat - he got a little bit more effective tricks...
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...Right. So I get mixed up. But technically, rocks have no mind, so that's VERY weak, isn't it?
And I was mostly referring to why Spock would win.
But I can attribute any quote to anything, almost, and have it fit in my mind, but in nobody else's at all.
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And I was mostly referring to why Spock would win.
Yeah, I got that, but since the quote in question was referring only to one, single Force power (which has no use in combat anyway), it's largely irrelevant.
But I can attribute any quote to anything, almost, and have it fit in my mind, but in nobody else's at all.
Well, yeah, of course you can - no one can tell you what to think!
However if you post something you know to be your personal, subjective opinion, yet try to dismiss it as a solid fact, that means you're intentionally deceiving the readers...
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Whatever.
1: I tend to attribute that Obi-Wan quote to all Force powers.
2: When did I say it was solid fact? Even fact in a Star Trek/Wars crossover?
I was really just being silly, and such logic does not mix with silliness. Believe me, I've tried. Can't we just say stupid things, people ignore the stupid things, and we all live happier, less stressful lives? We don't have to stress over being logical, and we don't have to pay attention to various bouts of madness...
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I tend to attribute that Obi-Wan quote to all Force powers.
Which is blatantly wrong.
When did I say it was solid fact?
You didn't.
Point is, however, that you based your whole point on your interpretation of the quote, which means you actually meant what you said...
Even fact in a Star Trek/Wars crossover?
Suspension of Disbelief. How else are we supposed to have a rational conversation if we don't suspend our disbelief and assume everything we talk about is real?
Can't we just say stupid things, people ignore the stupid things, and we all live happier, less stressful lives?
Well, yeah, of course we can!
Thing is, since we're having this conversation over the web, and you'd agree with me that it's difficult to judge someone's mood from plain text.
That's what the emoticon are for, man - they visually express your emotions!
DA has a whole host f them, why not to use them?
We don't have to stress over being logical, and we don't have to pay attention to various bouts of madness...
Who's stressing? I'm having lots of fun along the way!
P.S.: Sorry for being so anal about all this - I do genuinely enjoy this whole thing...
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First, since when is it mentioned that Force powers aren't totally mental? I mean, sure, it's enabled by the midichlorians, but they respond to your mental commands. What's stopping them from responding to others' mental commands? I think that's how the force-choke works. Therefore, wouldn't training your mind help prevent it? Tell your midichlorians NOT to choke you MORE than Vader is telling them TO choke you.
And yeah, I know all about Suspension of Disbelief. But one thing I always have trouble with is finding one of those Star Wars cutaway books, you know, where they show you how all the tech works, in the nonfiction section of the library. It is non-fiction, but in a fictional world.
I do agree, it is difficult a lot of the time, but often from just the context, it's not hard to tell a mood. Starting with a quote that barely fits tends to be a good indicator of silliness...
PS: It's cool. You're taking this as a debate, which I'm starting to as well. I love a good debate, especially over a slow system like this where you have time to think out your responses.
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First, since when is it mentioned that Force powers aren't totally mental?
Yes, it is mental, but in the concept that the Jedi uses his mind to control the Force, not that it's effects are in no way limited only to the minds of the targets. There's a host of different Force abilities which physically affect matter, instead of the mind of the target - all instances where Forces users are shown to be moving objects with their minds, Jedi's superhuman strength and speed, Palpatine's Force lightening - all of those are examples of such abilities.
I mean, sure, it's enabled by the midichlorians, but they respond to your mental commands.
According to the fluff, midichlorians are a good indicator of one's "connection" to the Force, but they are in no way the cause.
So I heard, at least. It makes more sense, too...
I think that's how the force-choke works.
Why do you think people that are not connected to the Force have any midichlorians at all?
As a proof to the contrary, there was an episode in the Clone Wars cartoon in which Anakin Force-choked some alien scientist which had a large metal collar around his neck (probably some sort of respiratory device). In this case Anakin applied much more force than usual and didn't just choked the guy but crushed his neck together with the metal color.
This means that the Force-choke is nothing but a specific case of telekinesis.
But one thing I always have trouble with is finding one of those Star Wars cutaway books, you know, where they show you how all the tech works, in the nonfiction section of the library.
It's called "SW: Incredible Cross-Sections". There's several tomes of it, each covers one of the movies.
I do agree, it is difficult a lot of the time, but often from just the context, it's not hard to tell a mood. Starting with a quote that barely fits tends to be a good indicator of silliness...
Yeah, maybe I'm a bit too kin to open a heated debate on every opportunity I get.
Then again, it is fun!
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Okay, so accepting that the Force powers are enabled by only YOUR midichlorians, and they are raw telekinesis outside of your body, wouldn't counter-kinesis be a viable option? Evidence: SW EIII, Mustafar, Anakin vs Obi-Wan. They force-pushed each other, but it seemed to repel the other, as if it were colliding with the other push, until they both bounced back, or something.
And you might be a tad quick to debate, and kind of harsh when starting it, to be honest, but debating is a ton of fun.
Interesting how this turned from a question of how Spock beats Vader to how Force powers work, and could be countered.
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Okay, so accepting that the Force powers are enabled by only YOUR midichlorians, and they are raw telekinesis outside of your body, wouldn't counter-kinesis be a viable option?
Well, I don't see any reason why wouldn't it be.
Technically, you could use your own TK to loosen the Jedi's grip on your throat, but that would probably mean that you'd be required to output more TK "strength" than the Jedi himself.
And let's be honest here, I don't remember Spock demonstrating any TK abilities at all, let alone something strong enough to counter Vader's incredible powers...
And you might be a tad quick to debate, and kind of harsh when starting it, to be honest, but debating is a ton of fun.
You might be right, but if you'd ever meet even a portion of the brain-dead retards I've had the questionable pleasure to debate with, you'd understand where's the hostility coming from...
Interesting how this turned from a question of how Spock beats Vader to how Force powers work, and could be countered.
This kind of sudden course change happens a lot in debating, actually.
A simple example to this - a teacher in the class told his students to close the door, and one of the students asked whether he can open the window. In this case you have to take a derivation from the main question (about the window) and find out why did the teacher ordered the door closed. Because if he said so because the students are having an exam and the noise from the hall disrupting them, there's no problem in opening the window. But if he ordered to close the door because there's air conditioning on, you cannot open the window for the air will escape!
See what I mean by course change in a debate?
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I don't remember Spock demonstrating any TK abilities at all, let alone something strong enough to counter Vader's incredible powers
OK, you've got me there, but Vulcans are telepathic, at least, and slightly telekinetic, at very least. See two particular episodes of Voyager, I forget the names: there's the one where B'Ellana gets in trouble on an alien planet for "violent thoughts." There we see Tuvok conversing telepathically with one of the natives there. And in one of the Kes episodes, Tuvok trains her in telekinetic abilities, and, while he does not demonstrate it, he tells her to increase and decrease the power of a candle's flame. He was teaching her some of the Vulcan meditation, so it is implied that this is part of the process for each (at least most) Vulcans. Although Tuvok is full Vulcan, while Spock is only half, it is still possible that he has these powers. Also, the telepathy, along with the onslaught of unrestrained Vulcan emotions, is the reason they suppress all emotion. Admittedly, the only TOS example of the Vulcan emotion is Amok Time, and it is even shown after the Ponn Farr is over, i.e., "Jim!!!! 
This kind of sudden course change happens a lot in debating, actually.
Oh, I know. I just like to note it.
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Well, your TK examples are not very convincing, because, as you say yourself, we don't see any actually TK happening.
But even if Vulcans do have some TK abilities, it's nothing compared to what the Jedi are capable of.
They are basically nearly invincible demigods - they have demonstrated incredible feats of superhuman strength, speed, resilience and survivability. Some Jedi have survived after suffering wounds so grievous (sorry for the pun) that they would be instantly fatal to anyone barring a superhuman being.
One of their most remarkable feats if their unique perception of surrounding - it's as if their senses extend from their skull and encompass the whole room, thus they are aware of everything that happens around them, which allows them to respond to several threats simultaneously.
And there is their "combat precognition" (as some fans call it). It's somewhat different from their somewhat unpredictable ability to perceive events in the distant future. Basically, it's a fairly reliable tool perceiving event mere moments before they happens. This is what allows them to dodge automatic fire, because it makes them avare to the danger before it actually happens.
So you see, Spock is facing a being that he has n real way of harming, while this being retains the many different tools to splatter Spock across a wall without even coming in contact with him.
It's not even a contest...
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OK, I guess you're right. In an honest contest, Vader would indeed wipe the floor with Spock. But I still love seeing Star Trek kick star Wars' butt. Even though I love both.
And yes, that does indeed mean I concede to you. *bows* A wonderful debate, good sir. 
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Of course, it's supposed to read "aware" to the dangers... I'm not sure how did this even happen.
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The fact that Vader was beaten by Obi-Wan and by Luke who had very little Jedi training is proof that someone like Spock whose a Vulcan (smarter than most humans including Luke) can beat Vader..... and as I said... "with" Jedi training. Meaning a Vulcan who can control the Force.
Plus the fact that Vulcans have there emotions under control or purged all together they would not fall to the dark side.
And although it is generally adhering to a philosophy of non-violence, Vulcans have developed martial arts and techniques of hand-to-hand combat. Vulcan martial arts are highly ritualistic, and based on philosophy, similar to Terran counterparts such as Karate. The most extreme example is the "koon-ut-kalifee" or fight to the death.
With Jedi training they would Vulcan logical to a fight.
Vader being in that suit doesn't make him more powerful. It's the only thing that's keeping him alive. He's not as strong or as fast as he could be. Which is why Sidious wanted Luke to replace him.
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The fact that Vader was beaten by Obi-Wan and by Luke who had very little Jedi training is proof
Both were very strong Force users, and Luke had enough training by the time he faced Vader for the second time.
and as I said... "with" Jedi training. Meaning a Vulcan who can control the Force.
Where's the proof that Vulcans, and Spock specifically is Force sensitive? Training in the ways of the force wouldn't give him much if he can't controll the force!
Which is why Sidious wanted Luke to replace him.
No, Sidious wanted Luke because he's stronger.
In fact, it was stated many time that Luke is the most powerful Force user ever!
And Vader doesn't need to be physically strong or fast to be a good sith.
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If you gave Spock a lightsaber and of course lightsaber training... he would kill Vader.
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Oh really?
How about Vader's ability to bend steel beams with his mere thought? And his precog abilities, which BTW what makes the lightsaber such a dangerous weapon?
Quoting Boba Fett: "A jedi's weapon doesn't make you a jedi"...
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There is only one word to discribe a WONDERUL use of subject matter like this...
And that word is... OWNED!!!!
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I like Star Trek and Star Wars, but Star Trek is better! I wonder what would happen if Kirk fought Vader?
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Character shield and Kirk-fu aside?
What do you think happens to an ordinary man who tries to take on a sith lord by himself?
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As much as I love Darth Vader, I think Spock would win. Unless the force could get to Spock before Darth was knocked out by the Vulcan neck pinch. Hmm. This is a hard one.
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Haha, this is friggin' awesome for a geek like me!!
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Ooo.... Tough battle. I'm not sure if Vader has any nerves to pinch, so Spock's at a disadvantage for sure. In strength, they might be matched. Hmmm.... Vader does have the Force, but then Spock has an entire Starship crew behind him, and anyone on Kirk's team doesn't seem to be able to lose.
Is Vader part computer? If so, I wouldn't put him up against Kirk. He'd get overloaded by Kirk's ability to confuse computers...
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