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MaximoVLorenzo — Manga/Anime are not styles 2
Published: 2011-03-22 22:22:47 +0000 UTC; Views: 11895; Favourites: 31; Downloads: 0
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Okay, so I'm still getting confusion over my statement Manga/Anime is not a style.
Some people think I'm out to get anime or I'm against it. Other people think I'm only for it, this is my problem in a nut shell. People think it's some kind of war where you pick sides and lob rocks at the other. Why I'm saying it's a medium and not a style is because you can generalize and dismiss a style. But a medium, you can't do that without looking foolish. Imagine someone says "I don't like rap music", well then you just concede the point they don't like it and move on. But if someone says "I don't like ANY music" you'd really wonder what was wrong with them. In this case comics are the same way, and so is manga as they mean the same thing. The only way I can justify using the word "Manga" is for a shorthand of "Japanese Comics". Considering it a style itself is too generalizing.
Maybe this picture will help clarify how countries do not determine style.
I will now post up some people's comments and address them here:
"That said I barely even consider Tezuka to be anime anymore, since the current mainstream stuff is so far from his."
-I wonder how Japanese people would react to that. See this is a big problem when one of that countries culture founders is considered not of that country's style.
"Anime/manga USED to have a style, now is the same generic sht. "
-So you would consider moe to be the same as Hajime no ippo?
I asked "So an artstyle is determined by its most generic factor?" And the answer was "Yeah, and frequently used /copied by other people."
-So by that logic Cubism is defined by everyone who uses it besides Picasso, and his thought process and methods behind it.
"Same as comic art and cartoon not being a style but being used as descriptors. They ain't exactly the most accurate of descriptions, but they're decent umbrella terms. Would be pedantic to ask people if they were emulating more Walt Disney and Ub Iwerks or Chuck Jones if they're drawing cartoon art, same goes if you want someone to proclaim that they are of the Tezuka or Ghibli styles. Is there are more succinct way of labeling a loose but still vaguely connected art-style influenced by the comic and animation of Japan?"
-people sure do love throwing that word "pedantic" out there. To imply that is the only way to classify art by individual personal styles is ridiculous. Scott McCloud showed 2 very fair ways of describing style. The pyramid that consists of realistic, to symbolic, to isometric and the combination of each. The second describes the goal of the artist classical, animist, iconoclast, and formalist. These are very fair terms that cover all styles from any country. As far as publishers are concerned, stick to genres like horror, action, adventure, romance, etc. when it comes to comics story supersedes art.
"1) speed and movement being displayed differently. example: where as western style comics would have something like....repeat images of a person running or lines behind the moving character to convey the motion, manga used things like the speed lines and blurred backgrounds, or a fast moving leg that fades into crosshatching. They both do the same thing but convey it differently."
Jack Kirby used speedlines
"2) setting and environment. Manga frequently uses lots of background shots and different angles of a setting to bring the mood into play.
-Many western comics do that, off the top of my head, Blankets by Craig Thompson.
"anatomical focus. Most major western comics place a lot of focus on size, height, and at least some degree of anatomical display. In manga these elements are frequently distorted giving it a unique charm."
-You mean like looney tunes? Vagabond certainly does not meet this requirement.
"While no, it can't be nailed down to always having certain specific stylistic traits, there are a number of stylistic conventions that go along with anime/manga in my opinion."
-I think there are repeating styles yes, but it ultimately trying to generalize these leads to contradictions and prejudice.
"So I ask you -- why do you "certainly not" see anime/manga as a style?"
-Because I think it does more harm than good, The only reason to refer to anime/manga as a style is because you generalize all the styles as one, but the problems this causes with people assuming anime is all one style are too many. This is when you get uneducated quotes like "All anime is the same"," I don't need to know anatomy if I'm drawing anime" "I used to be a bad artist then I quit drawing anime" "anime is not real art" "anime is superior blah blah blah"....I shit you not people actually say this garbage and they are all equally ignorant, and their problem is all the same, they think anime/manga is a tangible style that adheres to certain rules, when this is not even close to true.
"The first thought that comes to mind is: "Who Cares?"
-Same reason a biologist would care if people said "Rabbits are of the turtle species, biologists are veterinarians"
"I personally don't like anime/manga "styles". I would consider it a style as it is a copy of someone else's way of drawing/painting/etc. I also have a hard time believing someone is an artist that is only capable of drawing cartoons. It reminds me of when I was 12 and tried to draw Trigun screenshots. Was I an artist? No, I was merely someone that liked to draw."
So you consider Vagabond, Crayon Shin Chan, Naruto, and Peach Girl all the same style and you have equal disdain for each? An artist isn't some lofty glorious title only achieved by years of hard work. Anyone can be an artist if they express themselves through craft, no certain skill level is required.
"And don't get me started on digital art. 
Easy or Hard does not mean good or bad, just because you doodled something does not make it bad, just because you spent 3 years on something does not make it good. Digital art is plenty capable of emotion, I think you are mistaking that for digital art's ability to ( not always ) produce work without errors or little flaws that promote humanity. But with this in mind a digital work is still capable of capturing that. All digital art is, is another tool to the arsenal.
"LASTLY, people that draw anime/manga generally have so many mistakes in their work that they don't even give a fuck about.
A background? Who cares! It's a kawaii girl isn't she so kawaii? ^__^ "
-This is exactly the kind of thinking generalizing a entire countries culture into one style promotes. I guarantee you artists like
Tsulala Can draw cute girls and
draw killer backgrounds.
"But Japan, through comics (and later cartoons), inarguably developed its own national style"
-And yet Tezuka "God of manga" was heavily inspired by Popeye and Disney. And other mangas today derive inspiration from other sources not just other manga such as noir, graffiti, and superheros. The first mecha was actually designed for spiderman. So it's not an isolated style as you think, it didn't start out that way it won't end that way.
"If you know the fundamentals of art, have a strong groundwork in working from life, understand proportion- then by all means, draw however you want. But my biggest pet peeve is when people say that they're only interested in drawing anime/manga and therefore do not need to understand the basics."
-The problem lies in the artist, not manga/anime so stop blaming it. Blaming manga/anime for the artist's mistake only appeals to the shallowest of hipsters.
"It's just like how I say "I do Karate" all the time.
I never actually did any Karate, brodog... I did some other asian kicking/punching thing. But specifying with Kung-Fu or Ninjutsu or MMA or whatever specific thing that requires moderate to in-depth knowledge makes you sound like a toootal nerd.
....Well in martial arts talk, it kinda makes you sound like a stupid prick or a showoff. But the principle is the same I think."
-I rather look like a prick showoff for knowing something than an ignorant ass. Being ashamed of knowledge is a very very bad thing.
"Make less posts, do more studies."
I'll quote my friend for this one. "Ya know, being an artist is about more than tweaking the angle of a foot or going through a hundred thumbnails to get a composition right or studying the way cool light reflects off a pair of Beadazzled speedos to illuminate the underside of an erect penis. Being an artist is also about participating in current art culture - arguing and debating and raising awareness of issues relevant to one's craft and career. If you ignore that you're just masturbating onto a canvas.
I'm sorry this response contains so many allusions to the phallus, it's just you remind me of a dick."
I may add more arguments to this page but what I want to know now is, really can you think of ever benefit to considering "manga" a style and every disadvantage...Is it really that helpful to consider it a style? or is it just easier to let the status quo remain?
Additional comment by
"The fact is, "anime/manga" are marketed as something distinct from western comics because it is convenient for the publishers of these products. To put it another way, they have brainwashed their audiences into being antagonistic to non-Japanese content because it is a great way to defend against competition in the marketplace. By subtly convincing readers that they are taking part in something completely different and superior to "western comics," they essentially prevent the loss of sales to other companies.
It's not just anime/manga publishers allowing this to occur, either; there is a similar attitude of disdain among western comic fans which is allowed to persist.
This is why you see different sections for "comics" and "manga" in stores, or an "anime" section and a "family" section for animation. You will almost invariably find the American animated series Avatar lumped in with the anime. It is not uncommon to find Scott Pilgrim in the manga section as well. There is a reason these things are located there and not in their "correct" sections. It isn't because the people putting them up don't know any better, either.
It may be convenient to breed this attitude in the short term, but in the long run it is damaging to the artists that produce these things and fosters stagnation in content. When the audiences stop going along with this sort of thinking, publishers will be forced to embrace a wider variety of styles and talents in order to keep producing things people are willing to read and watch.
The long and short of it: if you believe that anime/manga is a style, you are incorrectly being led to believe so and it is ultimately bad for comics from any country."
Another commenter says: "One of the best sources of ammunition for this debate, I think, is Sazae-san. The forty-year-running anime is the most popular anime EVERY week, with the highest viewship rates by far (totally outstripping Naruto), and yet it looks nothing like "typical" anime."
No kidding!
Work in progress
???
OHKO
Final Fantasy Job Class Pin up
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Comments: 219
"anime is not real art" <-- literally every art teacher i've ever had has spouted that same line. And their reasoning? "It's all the same."
It always pissed me right the fuck off and made me lose respect for them as an art teacher, because you would expect someone who teaches art to understand that, just as you said, it IS art and it is NOT all the same. :I
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I completely respect when teachers say this. An art teacher's job is to teach you the basics of drawing from life and understanding perspective and color. They get to many kids who just want to draw anime all day and refuse to do any other work because 'drawing a still life is to hard' or 'I don't need to know that because I'm ganna make cartoons and video games.' Well I'll tell you I'm going to animation school and they don't take people who just draw anime or cartoons. They need to know you have structure.
I disagree with the argument that anime is not art. It is art because it is a creative expression. But I also disagree with stubborn kids who think that they are going to become a big shot art student when they refuse to learn basics and explore other media.
Art is vast and amazing and I get as much of a joy from painting a drapery study in oils as I do sketching out my anime inspired characters.
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I've seen peers of mine who drew in a vaguely anime inspired but well structured and extremely unique way get told by their teachers that it wasn't art. I've seen people who don't draw in a way that even slightly looks "anime" told that they're drawing generic anime and aren't artists. People who would draw that way for fun but not for their classwork, even.
Honestly, just because some kids want to be 'super desu mangaka nya~' doesn't mean that anyone and everyone who draws in a non-realistic way should be brushed off as non-artists at the first glance. You can draw in a way that's anime or cartoony or in some other way not 100% realistic and still grasp concepts like proportion, perspective, and anatomy. Teachers who don't take the time to get to know their students and how they like to work before passing such judgments should not be teaching, point blank.
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Very true a teacher that will try to discourage a student shouldn't be a teacher. But I think you are also being a bit sensitive. For one thing if your taking the critisisum personally. As if the teacher is expecting you to give up art or what you do for fun. Usually they aren't. My own teacher disliked when I got into anime but even though she didn't like it she showed me how to make human proporions. And my anime got BETTER. Funny how fine arts can help you with art you make for fun.
Second of all it is completely untrue that you are not an artist if you draw cartoons. There are jobs for people who draw cartoons. But to go to the colleges for animation/character design ext. you need to have a fine arts backgroud. I promise you, you will never find a cartoonist/ a character designer/ or maybe even a comic book artist that doesn't have some sort of fine arts background.
If you aren't willing to learn from critisisum and try to get better. If your just going to get insulted and pissed off about it, you can never prove your artistic ability to the people you wish to impress the most.
(And don't say you don't want to impress your teacher or whoever says your art isn't art. You do want to impress them if you want to shove your talent in there nose.)
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I'm not speaking about myself here.
I don't even fucking draw anime.
Nor am I in school. I graduated. Several years ago.
I'm not some half-wit child that you need to swoop in and save from the perils of artistic ignorance.
So saying that I'm taking criticism too personally is kind of douchey. Fuck you very much, don't make such ignorant assumptions.
We're done here.
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well said! i had an art teacher who said to me "When are you ever going to get it out of your head? Manga is not real art." art teachers suck! (well sometimes)
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Excellent journal; feels good to see some common misconception debunking around here.
Drop that knowledge! ;]
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Spot on. Spot on. It's funny. I watch a lot of stuff. Been watching anime for ten years, though, more accurately, that's when I became aware of it as something separate. Loved dragonball, sailor moon, digimon etc for ages before that. Digimon and dragonball practically raised me.
Anyway, used to get caught up in it all, but eventually when I started looking at my hobbies I realized that at the end of the day it's all just stories, and I love em. I read the comics and watch the cartoons of both coasts. I enjoy british television as much as anything else. I play videogames regardless of nation of origin. I read whether it be novel or light novel. There's just so much stuff out there, and it's all the same shit. Some shit's good and some shit is shit. Certainly far too much to get caught up in meaningless labels.
I'm still waiting for the literary community to start bleeding the line though. Japanese Fantasy and American Fantasy are still two very distinct creatures. While the classic epic of sword and sworcery isn't going anywhere, I figure within the next decade or so we're gonna start seeing some japanese fantasy elements in our american fantasy novels. There's a growing market for it, and a generation of writers growing up with less blurred cultural boundaries. Gonna be fun to watch.
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Found a link to this on my twitter page, and then I realize you did Bombos vs Everything! Your entry in the Rising Stars of Manga contest was one of the first works that made me dig my head out of my ass and start looking outside of Japanese works for comics inspiration. It was very much an, "Oh, Western comics can be interesting too," moment for me, and led me to reading and loving so many more diverse comics and growing as an artist, so thank you for that.
Lately I've been trying to pinpoint why I have a hard time talking to some of my friends about comics (these friends being woefully ignorant about animation and it's diversity) and this whole dissection of style is exactly the point I was trying to make.
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Aww thank you! I'm happy I could help in that insight!
Some people don't want to be bothered to think about it, it's too much trouble for them to question what they already know. You might never be able to talk to them about it, then again they might crack eventually. Good luck with that!
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What's worse is these friends are artists too, and they act like I've offended them when I try to talk about the difference between style and medium. Thanks for the good luck, I'll definitely need it.
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i guess you really gotta consider if its worth it or not you know?
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I just realized that it sounds like I thought you did Bombos for the Rising Stars, and I meant your Hellbender entry. Sorry if that was confusing.
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So, which one was the picture in the 'e' in anime in the picture that linked here?
I want to know because it looked interesting, but I couldn't figure out which one it was.
--
Icon made by *AcidKitty3
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That would be Tatami galaxy
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'Kay.
--
Icon made by *AcidKitty3 
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This is epic 
Definitely worth reading <3 You make valid points and I greatly approve. Have a nice day~
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Fantastic entry. I have nothing to comment since you seem to cover it all. I agree, and will also spread the word and rec this entry a bit if I ever bump into such discussions again.
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And not even pixiv, there is a bunch of artists who can draw cute stuffs and killer backgrounds.
A lot of "given ideas" really piss me off, especially in art schools too.
You're supposed to meet people who are more "cultivated" and "open-minded" in there, but I can assure that there are a lot of people who are the most narrow-minded and thinking that they "know their thing".
This year, at my art school, almost EVERYONE was thinking the same stupidities and stereotypes about "anime/manga" that they considered as a style.
"Stop drawing that and you'll improve"
"I don't like it, everything looks the same"
etc etc... (I could go on forever, but you said a lot on your side).
Sadly, I will have to try PLEASING those people to get in the schools I want, but if it was only up to me I'd show them that I draw what I please. They hate anything that looks "anime/manga" because they are still in the old-school system, referring only to a few graphics they might have seen (Candy, Dragon Ball Z, Sailor Moon probably) and disliked. They didn't try to look more deeply into the thing, and with no interest, they completely rejected everything linked to it.
I wish we could make people change their mind about it, but it seems just impossible to speak to people who don't want to hear.
I am glad at least that you engage the conversation about this matter, because it hurt me quite a lot this year. But now I will just fight on and improve ! Taking interest to every type of styles is very important, I guess. Everyone who closes theirselves too much into something are at their own fault (aka the ones who say that "anime/manga doesn't need anatomy skills etc etc" or the ones against it "anime is all the same shit" are only the ones at fault.)
I hope that showing them good quality work will make them change their mind a little...
Anyways, I'm rambling now.
Thank you Maximo for this post.
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yeah it's not a style people are ignorant and prejudice.
I'm sorry you have to deal with that.
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Haha thank you, no worries. I will just work to blow them away so they won't be able to say anything !!
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The person who said "LASTLY, people that draw anime/manga generally have so many mistakes in their work that they don't even give a fuck about.
A background? Who cares! It's a kawaii girl isn't she so kawaii? ^__^ "
should go look at pixiv.
And then cry bucket of tears at their own mistake.
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ohhh it's up on your journal, someone said that and you answered
"-This is exactly the kind of thinking generalizing a entire countries culture into one style promotes. I guarantee you artists like Tsulala can draw cute girls and draw killer backgrounds."
(to which I completely agree btw)
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Classifying other forms of art by country, typically, especially in art history and archaeology, given this is the best and easiest indicator to track the spread of -style- throughout geographical space as cultures contact and influence one another. The reason it is generalized by country and not elements (like realism, isometric, etc.) is that its typically characterized by the emergence of where a particular influence was done -first-, and usually conform to a cultural "norm" of how objects and humans are depicted.
Take for example "roman style" in historical art, most everyone knows exactly what you mean by generalizing by region and country, because that is where a particular prominent style has become most widely spread and based. "Anime" has become synonymous with "Japan" style because of its name--you find in bookstores "comics" are separated from "manga", and in video stores "cartoons" from "anime" based on country for the fundamental differences in cultural elements that -are- based on these general categories, lending the audience some direction in understanding the extreme diversity.
As time passes on however, your examples of manga-like western art styles and western-like japanese styles are wholly based on influence through time. I can almost guarantee that at the time of the emergence of japanese cartoon styles, you will not find that element very closely mimicked across the world where the elements has not yet been exposed, and thus, creating a point of origin for particular influences that retain identification based on origin and the less subtle differences from each region.
In archaology, you find this most notable in pottery, identifying distinct or even subtle differences in iconographic style which are labeled by region, and -not- by realism, symbolic, etc. Those are elements within styles, elements which spread through contact, and not exactly styles in themselves--but a product of it. (In example, La Venta pottery versus Tikal pottery--unique in the most subtle details and yet classified as their own individual styles with tracable elements that emerge through contact like trade, etc.)
It is not a problem with people over generalizing as it is just how most of the world approaches classification and identification because, as universal as art is to being human, the cognitive interpretations of the human form and how to build upon its depiction changes through space and time as with the rest of technology through human history. It is no error on the part of people to "generalize" style by region, but more a failure to arrive at a peaceful consensus that this is how people--especially those who are not practicing artists themselves, or those without education of art in general--come to categorize, classify, and thus identify the origins and culturally influenced "norms" of particular overarching elements.
(Theres probably a ton of errors since I didn't edit this--but this is just my interpretation on the matter from an anthropological and art historical standpoint 
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This is what I teach my students!
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Good to be on the same side! *salute*
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great article..
what i know and understand is anime&manga is more a culture..and yes what i read and know is manga&anime 'style' is born from western (walt disney,felix the cat,propaganda comic from the war era during the u.s army occupation on japan)..i agree that anime&manga is not a style..
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Amen to all that. I especially like the point that it's just as important to be involved in events and debates as it to create the art. I don't think people understand how important and influential words can be. We spend all our time dealing with images that we forget the power of Words.
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You should make this a news article so I can fav it, haha.
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Ah, so you opened Pandora's Box...
I'm the kind of artist who's gotten the "You shouldn't draw Manga/Anime, it's a waste of talent" response more than once. And considering this came from artists I admire and respect, it was a huge ego blow.
And then I read Scott McCloud's "Understanding Comics" and "Making Comics", and everything was fine again. I realized that I just drew what I liked, what I knew, and that if I wanted to change, I'd do it because the things I liked and knew would change, not because I drew "Manga" or "Anime".
That's why it irks me when someone describes my comics as "Manga". At first, I tried to reason, to teach, to educate... But it's always like arguing with a wall made of Ignorance and Pedantry (Use of the word Pedantry is 100% intentional, btw).
Now, I just draw what I draw, like what I like, and shrug and dismiss whenever I find people like that. Art is art, comics are comics, and I love them all!
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Just work hard and study everything you can, style is only a hamper if you believe it makes you immune to improvement.
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Sorry, to tag on to the end of your comment here, but it's good for me to see that someone was in the same boat as me, but has gotten past it. I have just started an animation course at university, and my teacher absolutely hates Japanese animation and comics and the, as he sees it, stereotypical "anime style" - the style he sees in all of my work. He went on to tell me that I need to get away from it as soon as possible, and as you can imagine it upset me quite a bit; this is how I've been drawing for the past 15 or so years. I didn't know what to think about this for so long, but after stumbling across this journal, and reading your post, sindaran-ainu, you've made me finally decide, to h*ll with what my teacher says, I'll do what I want, that's the only way I'll be comfortable with my own work right?
So; thank you sidaran-ainu and speedking, you've made me feel so much better about myself!!
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What I *do* recommend is to get soaked with EVERYTHING you can find and like. One common mistake that I have seen many people make is to try to emulate a specific artist's style, but never growing past it.
For example, my first drawing were considerably more cartoonish. I've gone through many stages: Dragon Ball-like, Tall-and-skinny figures, More-realistic-anime, and now I'm doing a mixture of styles that takes a bit of everything: [link] (Not bad for being a 1-hr comic!)
In short: Listen to your teachers! But also, REBEL against them! Show them that you can go far on your own style
(And sorry it took me this long to reply, life has been really busy for me lately.)
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Thanks for the reply. I'll take your advice! I used to stick to my favourite artist's style, but as I've grown as a person I've grown as an artist as well I think, and I'm taking things that I like and creating my own style. It's just a problem when your teacher is someone who hates anime and manga with his very soul and if he sees the slightest hint of it in your work (which there always will be in mine) he will complain about it. It's sad that people are so intolerent of it, especially when it's someone you actually respect and want their respect in return, but will never get it because of their art preference. I guess it's just a case of, you can't please everyone all of the time. I'll keep learning and evolving and hopefully earn his respect one day!!
Again, thanks for the original post and the reply!!
woowar
(ps, sorry --my-- reply was late, I can totally understand the really busy life right now!! Hopefully I'll get some free time to make some new art soon!!)
pps The style in that comic is super cute!!
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I think it might be worth stating that the real issue is not the fact that people are using certain words for styles which are inaccurate, but the more subtle problems that lurk behind identifying styles in the way that many people do. Many people use titles like "manga" and "anime" not to distinguish a certain piece of media's national origin, but because unwittingly or not, they consider "manga" to be something different (or even superior) to comics.
It's sort of like how people subconsciously understand concepts like "nations" or "government" to be an entity unto themselves and not a collection of individuals. It's why the state is able to do things that the individual would be criminalized for doing. This is why semantics is important. Subtle misunderstandings like these usually have damaging consequences.
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>> Many people use titles like "manga" and "anime" not to distinguish a certain piece of media's national origin, but because unwittingly or not, they consider "manga" to be something different (or even superior) to comics.
You make a Damn Good Point! Can't help but agree.
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I agree and disagree with many things stated. I'm however left confused on who said what. I used to think anime/manga was a large uber style composed of many sub-styles. Now I'm not sure what to think. I used to think true anime/manga was only Japanese originated, but now as the rest of the world has embraced the art style popularized by their country's artists I see that it is a, if it can be called a style, an uber-style that is not based on the country of origin or racial heritage of the author. Perhaps this is why it is no longer unique to Japan and improper to attach all similar artwork to that country. However I knew that Tezuka, god/father of manga, was inspired by Disney (and now I am aware also Popeye, yes?), and since I discovered that I knew that anime/manga had a very Western cartoon heritage and origin. However I felt many artists overseas there had developed their own unique styles not commonly seen in the West (mainly the U.S. where I am as I'm not familiar with the developing art styles of other countries, etc) through out the past 100 years. However I agree with Scott McCloud then on his view of style. However I do not know what all of those words mean. Isometric, for example? I should look it up. I supposed the art coming out of Japan as popularized by the artists there that once were iconic worldwide as some sort of larger anime/manga style composing perhaps 100's of different sub-styles, has gone from often times instantly recognizable as Japanese (when stylized to that extent) to simply that many more artistic choices that add to a person particular personal art style, whether he is from an Eastern, Western, or wherever-it-may-be area of the world.
As Robaato said and I quote, "Just draw." It is nice to divert my thoughts for a little while in order to take a step back from my own stresses, but is not really an important issue worth arguing over. In the end, no matter whom the victor of the discussion, it does not change the world into a better place than it was previously. Perhaps our energy would be better put towards finding a way to aid the people of that country of Japan in their time of need than arguing over it's art.
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I heard there was some minor fuss over here, so I decided to check it out.
You're arguing about semantics in art. Arguing semantics in most fields is a waste of time, but in art it's just absurd. The real beef of your argument (which you may not even realize) is that Japanese, American and European comics have more similarities than they do differences. That's true. But that has nothing to do with the words "Manga", "Comics" and "Style".
When somebody says "I want to draw anime", the literal interpretation of that statement is "I want to create animation", with the languages in the sentence being "English English English English Japanese". But that's not what the person means. What they mean is "I want to be able to create images which share stylistic consistencies with the works of major popular Japanese cartoonists".
If somebody tells you that they want to draw anime, and you then give them a lecture about how anime is just a Japanese word for animation, you're missing the point of language. Language is about communication. If you use non-colloquial definitions for everything, you're not going to get anywhere. If you want to inspire critical thinking about art, there are few worse ways to attempt that than by trying to manipulate colloquial semantics.
Talk about ideas, not words.
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Also, you may not feel the impact as who would debate whether you are or are not "manga style" ? But i assure you there are real values and consequences at stake.
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OH with Sketchy? I just want to avoid her, she has some kind of problem with me and i'm not interested in her using the debate to try to get at me. That's all.
Semantics? I'll refer you to Teben's post above.
"I think it might be worth stating that the real issue is not the fact that people are using certain words for styles which are inaccurate, but the more subtle problems that lurk behind identifying styles in the way that many people do. Many people use titles like "manga" and "anime" not to distinguish a certain piece of media's national origin, but because unwittingly or not, they consider "manga" to be something different (or even superior) to comics.
It's sort of like how people subconsciously understand concepts like "nations" or "government" to be an entity unto themselves and not a collection of individuals. It's why the state is able to do things that the individual would be criminalized for doing. This is why semantics is important. Subtle misunderstandings like these usually have damaging consequences."
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Nice examination, but personally I feel that the matter boils down to
1 - Convenience; Sure lumping the radically different styles of different artists into geographical categories is somewhat ignorant, but because there are reoccurring trends in certain styles that link them together, people are going use those trends to separate this from that. It's contrived when you dig into it, but it works for some folks.
2 - Language; Certain words have certain implications for certain people, so they associate them with certain things. So when you say "anime" or "manga", people might think Naruto, Salior Moon, Astro Boy, etc., which are associated with these two words because the majority use them in connection with each other. Among people, some implications are universal and some vary. So if someone generally associates the styles of Watterson, Moebius, and Kirby with "American/Comics" and the styles of Araki, Oda, Tezuka with "Japanese/Manga", some might cringe, but people categorize them as such since they make sense to a certain degree.
3 - Everybody Else; the matter of how we describe and/or categorize styles might be of little important to the folks who just look at the stuff (that's to say, to people who aren't artists). Likewise, what average people think might be of little concern to artists who do take it seriously. Sometimes distinguishing with "manga style/western style" gets a point across more than "realistic/isometric/symbolic/combination there-of, sometimes it doesn't (not everybody read McCloud, after all). So it's not so much as being ashamed of knowledge as it is not wanting to go over people's heads/appearing pedantic when discussing it with them.
My three bucks anyway. Of course, I do agree that blaming your artistic shortcoming on anime and manga is pretty ridiculous.
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Hrmmm... Interesting thoughts.
Once upon a time there actually WAS a strong difference between eastern and western comic book styles. This wasn't necessarily the big eyes and the spikey hair, though you were way more likely to find those things in Japanese comics. It was more a matter of narrative styles, tone, types of characters, and the fact that stories were written with an ending in mind rather than bullshitted until they died. That last one is why the first season of Sailor Moon blew me away back in the day. They actually killed their big bad which was utterly unheard of back in the late 80's and early 90's.
These days the distinction is a lot weaker thanks to years and years of cross pollination. Western comics and cartoons have gotten a ton deeper while drawing subtly (and occasionally not-so-subtly) from Japanese art techniques (there are a TON of US comics with characters that have big eyes and spikey hair), and on the other side of things Japan had drawn (to a lesser degree) from us resulting in things like Cowboy Bebop and Trigun. While I don't think we're QUITE to the point where we can throw the distinction away completely we're sure getting there fast. In fact I'm pretty sure the only major difference between Western and Japanese comics these days is format size and the fact that Manga is in black and white while most US comics are still in color. Even that's starting to change though.
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This is terribly confusing for someone desperately trying to understand this at four in the morning.
How does dA's category system play into all of this?
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Da's category system is flawed in this regard.
As what is and what is not manga style has never been able to be clearly defined.
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"In the style of, or inspired by popular Japanese artists" is probably best. Not perfect, but at least it lets you know what to expect.
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EXACTLY. I feel like less of a douche for basically feeling the same way. if someone ripps off the look of my art, I dont say they bit my "FORMAT" or the ripped off my "MEDIUM" ..I say they copied(or "swagger-jacked", if I may use this hilarious vernacular lol) my STYLE. And if my STYLE has unequal parts - lets say 15% Italian Comics, 75% Anime influenced & 10% photo realism - chances are, the entire bodiment of my art will fall mostly under the umbrella of ANIME.
Im having trouble understanding the whole debate & why its important... someone ought to make some chart data. much like that "what type of geek are you" infographic [link] and maybe even a vinn diagram [link] Reading a long dissertation intended to persuade people on the fence and berate people who may not agree is a lot to digest.
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Words and their definitions frame how we think about things. So people heavily involved in "manga" styled art tend to take these kinds of semantic questions fairly seriously since the outcomes can have real world consequences.
For example, if the only thing that the larger population thinks of when they hear anime or manga is dating sims and weird porn it can cause parenting groups to try and ban "manga" in general. There's more to it, true. However the PERCEPTION is still there and that's what people act on. This debate is basically a smaller version of the same thing. It's a debate over how the concept of "manga" should be framed in DA which will affect how users of the site unfamiliar with manga will perceive the format going foreword. Speedking is of a mind that it's healthier to define by artist or general style rather than simply by "manga" and "not manga". I agree to a point but still find that the "manga" label hasn't completely lost it's usefulness yet. At least for this sites purposes as well as that of a retail setting.
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