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MaximoVLorenzo — Manga/Anime are not styles 2
Published: 2011-03-22 22:22:47 +0000 UTC; Views: 11895; Favourites: 31; Downloads: 0
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Okay, so I'm still getting confusion over my statement Manga/Anime is not a style.
Some people think I'm out to get anime or I'm against it. Other people think I'm only for it, this is my problem in a nut shell. People think it's some kind of war where you pick sides and lob rocks at the other. Why I'm saying it's a medium and not a style is because you can generalize and dismiss a style. But a medium, you can't do that without looking foolish. Imagine someone says "I don't like rap music", well then you just concede the point they don't like it and move on. But if someone says "I don't like ANY music" you'd really wonder what was wrong with them. In this case comics are the same way, and so is manga as they mean the same thing. The only way I can justify using the word "Manga" is for a shorthand of "Japanese Comics". Considering it a style itself is too generalizing.
Maybe this picture will help clarify how countries do not determine style.
I will now post up some people's comments and address them here:
"That said I barely even consider Tezuka to be anime anymore, since the current mainstream stuff is so far from his."
-I wonder how Japanese people would react to that. See this is a big problem when one of that countries culture founders is considered not of that country's style.
"Anime/manga USED to have a style, now is the same generic sht. "
-So you would consider moe to be the same as Hajime no ippo?
I asked "So an artstyle is determined by its most generic factor?" And the answer was "Yeah, and frequently used /copied by other people."
-So by that logic Cubism is defined by everyone who uses it besides Picasso, and his thought process and methods behind it.
"Same as comic art and cartoon not being a style but being used as descriptors. They ain't exactly the most accurate of descriptions, but they're decent umbrella terms. Would be pedantic to ask people if they were emulating more Walt Disney and Ub Iwerks or Chuck Jones if they're drawing cartoon art, same goes if you want someone to proclaim that they are of the Tezuka or Ghibli styles. Is there are more succinct way of labeling a loose but still vaguely connected art-style influenced by the comic and animation of Japan?"
-people sure do love throwing that word "pedantic" out there. To imply that is the only way to classify art by individual personal styles is ridiculous. Scott McCloud showed 2 very fair ways of describing style. The pyramid that consists of realistic, to symbolic, to isometric and the combination of each. The second describes the goal of the artist classical, animist, iconoclast, and formalist. These are very fair terms that cover all styles from any country. As far as publishers are concerned, stick to genres like horror, action, adventure, romance, etc. when it comes to comics story supersedes art.
"1) speed and movement being displayed differently. example: where as western style comics would have something like....repeat images of a person running or lines behind the moving character to convey the motion, manga used things like the speed lines and blurred backgrounds, or a fast moving leg that fades into crosshatching. They both do the same thing but convey it differently."
Jack Kirby used speedlines
"2) setting and environment. Manga frequently uses lots of background shots and different angles of a setting to bring the mood into play.
-Many western comics do that, off the top of my head, Blankets by Craig Thompson.
"anatomical focus. Most major western comics place a lot of focus on size, height, and at least some degree of anatomical display. In manga these elements are frequently distorted giving it a unique charm."
-You mean like looney tunes? Vagabond certainly does not meet this requirement.
"While no, it can't be nailed down to always having certain specific stylistic traits, there are a number of stylistic conventions that go along with anime/manga in my opinion."
-I think there are repeating styles yes, but it ultimately trying to generalize these leads to contradictions and prejudice.
"So I ask you -- why do you "certainly not" see anime/manga as a style?"
-Because I think it does more harm than good, The only reason to refer to anime/manga as a style is because you generalize all the styles as one, but the problems this causes with people assuming anime is all one style are too many. This is when you get uneducated quotes like "All anime is the same"," I don't need to know anatomy if I'm drawing anime" "I used to be a bad artist then I quit drawing anime" "anime is not real art" "anime is superior blah blah blah"....I shit you not people actually say this garbage and they are all equally ignorant, and their problem is all the same, they think anime/manga is a tangible style that adheres to certain rules, when this is not even close to true.
"The first thought that comes to mind is: "Who Cares?"
-Same reason a biologist would care if people said "Rabbits are of the turtle species, biologists are veterinarians"
"I personally don't like anime/manga "styles". I would consider it a style as it is a copy of someone else's way of drawing/painting/etc. I also have a hard time believing someone is an artist that is only capable of drawing cartoons. It reminds me of when I was 12 and tried to draw Trigun screenshots. Was I an artist? No, I was merely someone that liked to draw."
So you consider Vagabond, Crayon Shin Chan, Naruto, and Peach Girl all the same style and you have equal disdain for each? An artist isn't some lofty glorious title only achieved by years of hard work. Anyone can be an artist if they express themselves through craft, no certain skill level is required.
"And don't get me started on digital art. 
Easy or Hard does not mean good or bad, just because you doodled something does not make it bad, just because you spent 3 years on something does not make it good. Digital art is plenty capable of emotion, I think you are mistaking that for digital art's ability to ( not always ) produce work without errors or little flaws that promote humanity. But with this in mind a digital work is still capable of capturing that. All digital art is, is another tool to the arsenal.
"LASTLY, people that draw anime/manga generally have so many mistakes in their work that they don't even give a fuck about.
A background? Who cares! It's a kawaii girl isn't she so kawaii? ^__^ "
-This is exactly the kind of thinking generalizing a entire countries culture into one style promotes. I guarantee you artists like
Tsulala Can draw cute girls and
draw killer backgrounds.
"But Japan, through comics (and later cartoons), inarguably developed its own national style"
-And yet Tezuka "God of manga" was heavily inspired by Popeye and Disney. And other mangas today derive inspiration from other sources not just other manga such as noir, graffiti, and superheros. The first mecha was actually designed for spiderman. So it's not an isolated style as you think, it didn't start out that way it won't end that way.
"If you know the fundamentals of art, have a strong groundwork in working from life, understand proportion- then by all means, draw however you want. But my biggest pet peeve is when people say that they're only interested in drawing anime/manga and therefore do not need to understand the basics."
-The problem lies in the artist, not manga/anime so stop blaming it. Blaming manga/anime for the artist's mistake only appeals to the shallowest of hipsters.
"It's just like how I say "I do Karate" all the time.
I never actually did any Karate, brodog... I did some other asian kicking/punching thing. But specifying with Kung-Fu or Ninjutsu or MMA or whatever specific thing that requires moderate to in-depth knowledge makes you sound like a toootal nerd.
....Well in martial arts talk, it kinda makes you sound like a stupid prick or a showoff. But the principle is the same I think."
-I rather look like a prick showoff for knowing something than an ignorant ass. Being ashamed of knowledge is a very very bad thing.
"Make less posts, do more studies."
I'll quote my friend for this one. "Ya know, being an artist is about more than tweaking the angle of a foot or going through a hundred thumbnails to get a composition right or studying the way cool light reflects off a pair of Beadazzled speedos to illuminate the underside of an erect penis. Being an artist is also about participating in current art culture - arguing and debating and raising awareness of issues relevant to one's craft and career. If you ignore that you're just masturbating onto a canvas.
I'm sorry this response contains so many allusions to the phallus, it's just you remind me of a dick."
I may add more arguments to this page but what I want to know now is, really can you think of ever benefit to considering "manga" a style and every disadvantage...Is it really that helpful to consider it a style? or is it just easier to let the status quo remain?
Additional comment by
"The fact is, "anime/manga" are marketed as something distinct from western comics because it is convenient for the publishers of these products. To put it another way, they have brainwashed their audiences into being antagonistic to non-Japanese content because it is a great way to defend against competition in the marketplace. By subtly convincing readers that they are taking part in something completely different and superior to "western comics," they essentially prevent the loss of sales to other companies.
It's not just anime/manga publishers allowing this to occur, either; there is a similar attitude of disdain among western comic fans which is allowed to persist.
This is why you see different sections for "comics" and "manga" in stores, or an "anime" section and a "family" section for animation. You will almost invariably find the American animated series Avatar lumped in with the anime. It is not uncommon to find Scott Pilgrim in the manga section as well. There is a reason these things are located there and not in their "correct" sections. It isn't because the people putting them up don't know any better, either.
It may be convenient to breed this attitude in the short term, but in the long run it is damaging to the artists that produce these things and fosters stagnation in content. When the audiences stop going along with this sort of thinking, publishers will be forced to embrace a wider variety of styles and talents in order to keep producing things people are willing to read and watch.
The long and short of it: if you believe that anime/manga is a style, you are incorrectly being led to believe so and it is ultimately bad for comics from any country."
Another commenter says: "One of the best sources of ammunition for this debate, I think, is Sazae-san. The forty-year-running anime is the most popular anime EVERY week, with the highest viewship rates by far (totally outstripping Naruto), and yet it looks nothing like "typical" anime."
No kidding!
Work in progress
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OHKO
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Comments: 219
I guess it's like how Japan decided "Megaman" is the umbrella term for Rockman drawn in western style stereotype, over here the west pop culture decided "anime/manga" is any animation/comic influenced by the Eastern style stereotype.
...So aside from philosophy style stereotypes vs. spectrum, this is totally also about language corruption!+_,+
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Also I've noticed a subtle but distinct difference in aesthetics between comics made by Japanese and Korean artists.
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You're right about "anime" and "manga" not being styles, they're more like a collection of styles that follow similar aesthetics... plus anime and manga are Japanese words for animation and comics. You comment about Scott McCloud is spot on too.
Like I said to my bro, "...it BECAME a style when people started trying to differentiate between the common styles of Southeast Asian and American comics/animations." Just a matter of ignorance, really, but I don't think it's worth geting too upset about.
Also people criticizing anime are either being obnoxious or unknowingly ignorant and should be ignored, cause there's some very subtle differences between some styles, and big differences between others.
(I'm tired, excuse me if I don't make sense.)
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What's sad is that I was not wearing my glasses and correctly guessed the nationality of your examples before realizing they were labeled.
I'll say this in as few words as possible. Each ethnic grouping is extremely different because of their culture and history. Aboriginal Australian and Canadian artists may both be called "native" art, but they are vastly different. Same with "manga" versus "comics". The cultural expectations and acceptance/role in the society dictates the styles along with the social norms.
Attempting to define an entirely different cultural art "style" into one is stupid. Is thai food the same as chinese food since they both use bean sprouts? And italian is just another form of french cuisine for using oil?
Manga is a different subgroup of visual story telling. To me, I would also change your analogy about music to something like "Music genres are different from each other, but many individual songs or artists within those groups can expand past the base characteristics that give it that label."
also: less posting, more studies (and it doesn't have to be loomis, just in general)
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"What's sad is that I was not wearing my glasses and correctly guessed the nationality of your examples before realizing they were labeled."
No I'll tell you what's sad, in how incredibly arrogant you are by assuming that this is some sort of guessing game where if you can guess what country it's from it all falls under the same style. I didn't set up a guessing game for you to play I was showing how varied the styles were within each country. That said, of course you can tell what country they are from, I picked pretty famous examples, not only that there are other context clues that would tell you, using those to denote style is retarded. That's like saying this painting of pizza is Italian because pizza becomes from Italy.
"I'll say this in as few words as possible. Each ethnic grouping is extremely different because of their culture and history. Aboriginal Australian and Canadian artists may both be called "native" art, but they are vastly different. Same with "manga" versus "comics". The cultural expectations and acceptance/role in the society dictates the styles along with the social norms. "
People don't always follow their culture of history, not should they be expected to. The world benefits from learning from one another, and like I've said Tezuka god of manga took great influence from Popeye and Disney. So it's not as insular as you think, we are constantly growing and learning from one another
"The cultural expectations and acceptance/role in the society dictates the styles along with the social norms."
Seriously if you think artstyle and influence should be limited to the society you are in, especially in the internet age you have a fucking lot to learn.
"Attempting to define an entirely different cultural art "style" into one is stupid."
EXACTLY, but that's what you're doing when you call "manga" a style,
Style: 9.
a particular, distinctive, or characteristic mode or form of construction or execution in any art or work: Her painting is beginning to show a personal style.
Not every style in Japan share the same particular or distinctive features. Also Korean and Chinese comics share some distinctive / particular features, applying the label "manga style" to them is wrong because they are not Japanese that is a Japanese word. What people make the mistake of, is taking context clues within the work that tell them the work is Japanese and assume it's from japan. But just because the context clearly shows it to be of Japanese origin does not mean it's a style. Also those context clues can not be considered part of a style unless they apply in every instance. Big shiny eyes cannot be considered part of a style of Japan if other countries use the same technique and if Japan itself does not always use this technique.
" Is Thai food the same as Chinese food since they both use bean sprouts? And Italian is just another form of french cuisine for using oil? "
This this is a very poor analogy you have made.
"Manga is a different subgroup of visual story telling. To me, I would also change your analogy about music to something like "Music genres are different from each other, but many individual songs or artists within those groups can expand past the base characteristics that give it that label."
It is a subgroup of visual story telling, it's comics. Comics = Manga. Manga is NOT a subgroup of Comics. Japanese Music is not a style of music, Pop, Rap, Rock, Etc ARE styles. Is that so hard to grasp?
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No I'll tell you what's sad, in how incredibly arrogant you are by assuming that this is some sort of guessing game where if you can guess what country it's from it all falls under the same style
I don't think that was his point. If you examine those examples you posted closer, you can notice characteristic differences for western/Europe/Japan. Posting Asterix & Obelix and Calvin & Hobbes is bad example because majority knows that they're French/American. Japanese ones also can be distinguished if you look at how their face is structured and drawn, etc etc. European one is noticed because various European artist have mild influence from manga culture.(Witch, Skydoll, Wondercity, fun fact: all Italian, here is an example: [link] )and it's expanding.
In my opinion, example would be better if you placed Sandman/Dylan Dog/Uzumaki. Still different, but vaguely similar in some aspects, because all of them three contain more serious art, dark themes and even horror.
And I seriously don't know why do you freak out when someone says that Manga is style. It IS if you look closely, from storytelling, pacing and characters personalization, another example is that most of manga artist are writers at the same time too. It's not just in anatomy features.
It's was not my intention to be rude, and I understand what you're pointing out, but don't freak out because some idiots don't know how to look deeper in some things.
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"And I seriously don't know why do you freak out when someone says that Manga is style. It IS if you look closely, from storytelling, pacing and characters personalization, another example is that most of manga artist are writers at the same time too. It's not just in anatomy features."
Oh I don't mind the opinion, that's not what makes me freak out, it's when people try to talk down to me.
Thank you for your input, i don't think you are rude, many people with that opinion I actually like, I am not angry for their opinion I promise
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dont want to sound like a troll or anything but isnt anime, manga, western comics, European etc etc all "styles" of graphic art
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I don't believe so no, they are not distinctive themselves to be styles.
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I would fave this journal if I could. True stuff.
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You're making a really good point, I have also to agree with the fact that manga is indeed style in some weird way. Although manga is format of comic, there is difference in story-telling, the way the expressions are drawn, the way characters are pulled out... there is enough to name. But most recognized thing about manga is the anatomy of characters: bigger heads, bigger eyes, mouth and nose shape... Look back 50 years ago, did western comics had any similarities with Japanese ones? Or vice versa? They always had their way of doing things. And even today. I just now tried to imagine One Piece and Ultimate X-men swapping places: One Piece now belongs to Marvel, and Ultimate X-men is drawn by Eiichiro Oda (or any other manga artist, it doesn't matter.) Personally, X-men would finally get its part of AWESOME, and One Piece would turn meh.
I don't have to mention that this world isn't inhabited only by people who enjoy various forms of comic. It has people also who aren't in it, and they'll mostly categorize them as Western/Europe/Japan. Even I can distinguish them on that note, but some of European artists are good at absorbing Japanese influence.
Mattering the last example you mentioned... that's true, it doesn't posses typical japanese way of drawing style... but! Animation is what makes it tell apart from western one. The way the walk, run, and talking is animated makes them stand out, while western takes part when it comes putting fluidity in face expression, mouth movement and everything. If you want better example of animation difference, take look at this [link] . You probably watched it I suppose, but this kind of animation is atypical for Japan. Only one from west I can connect to Japanese animation is Avatar the Last Airbender. But even than, the way they're animated makes them still more western than Japanese.
So, in one awkward way, you could also say that manga is Japanese style. Not just in way of drawing, but in every other aspect of comic.
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"Personally, X-men would finally get its part of AWESOME, and One Piece would turn meh. "
Just a honest question...Why?
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Don't get me wrong, I love X-men, but the way western comic books are written is just really fast for me. I just mentioned 'Ultimate X-men' as example because I didn't liked storytelling, pacing and relationships between characters (I think fast pacing is noticeable in other comic books too, but that could be just me). For example (i'll focus on relationships now, but it can be seen in other situations): You have Storm which is dating Beast. Everything is jolly right, but then DUN DUN, Beast is dead. Storm is grieving some time, but then want's to hook up with Wolverine. They screw around (not in literate way), but then, all of a sudden, Beast is alive, and she returns to him. Now, all of that wouldn't be even that bad if the time from start till that point isn't something around 2-3 months. And that's just plain awkward. Same goes for Rogue, she's with Bobby, then goes with Gambit, but then he dies and one month later, she's back to screwing Bobby (IN literate way). I have really hard time consuming that. And then I tried to imagine One Piece with same writing (it still has same concept of pirates and characters) and I simply... Do not want. Not to mention the whole alternative universes and crap like that, because it really shows that writers and creators in Marvel don't have balls to make something official. It could be just me, I really like Marvel comics, but I have hard time connecting whole concepts and characters with actual storyline. While with Japanese artists is whole different story. There is mostly one creator (in some cases there is one writer and one drawer, but it keeps on trough series), pacing is slower, and it gives time to reader to consume it on normal level.
Sorry for tl;dr comment, I just wanted to explain my point. I hope I made some sense.
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I see, thanks for the heads up though I haven't brushed enough comic reading lately (haven't read ultimate x-men yet...from the way you describe it, it sounds so awkward indeed )
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About 15 - 20 years ago, you could see regional differences in pacing more than anything else. If you compare a 2000 AD mag (Judge Dredd, Rogue Trooper, Nemesis the Warlock etc) from the 80s and a Young Magazine (Akira, 3x3 eyes etc) from the same time period, it would be pretty obvious where they came from. This isn't to say that their styles were homogenized and identical. It just means that the storytelling is distinctively regional.
It's cool. Comic anthropology!
I think modern comics all over the world are becoming more meshed together in both style and pacing. The internetzz is making it easier to access art to be influenced by. It's not so much a "what inspiration is the american direct market offering me in my LCBS" thing anymore. EVOLUTIONNN
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I think music is distinctly regional too, especially the farther you go back, certain countries pioneered certain styles. But to say it's that country's style is a bit much for me. "Japanese styles music" is not nearly as useful as saying J-Pop , J-Rock which is a distinct style within that country...does that make sense?
I wish we could sit down and chat about this sometime,
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It's each country's approach to different styles. I like books to be sorted by country just for this reason, but unfortunately our markets only categorize things by America, Japanese, everything else.
Thats why when a comic shop goes out of it's way to manage it's product in an interesting way, it's really important to support that shop and keep it going.
this conversation could go on forever mister
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Granted countries do specialize in certain techniques or styles. However I dislike categorizing by country. I think it's much more efficient to sort by genre, if a reader is into horror comics for example, it seems to make more sense to place all horror in one section rather than to divide by each country. This also makes it more viable to carry this genre from other countries that are not just American or Japanese.
I totally agree, unfortunately though I find what I'm looking for in Japanese bookstores in NYC more than anything else.
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My question is what do we call the "anime/manga" style then?
What do we call all of these styles?
I see a problem, but no solution.
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This is more a question of how to separate these things usefully on a retail store's bookshelf than anything. Outside of that we're just arguing semantics. My personal take is that it's best to separate more by format and target audience (kids, young adult, adult, very adult etc). As spikey hair and large eyes become more and more popular in US art separating books out solely by region becomes harder to justify. Eventually I suspect we'll just have a "teen comics" section split up into things like small paperbacks, large trade paperbacks, etc as well as occasionally by genre. They already do this a bit actually as you can often find Scott Pilgrim, I luv Halloween, Bombos vs Everyting and others in the manga section at Barnes and Noble.
We're still a bit away from that happening though as the people who gravitate towards manga and the people who gravitate towards western comics still ARE separate audiences with unique quirks and different tastes making the separation practical for now. Some examples being that manga fans are more willing to read books "back to front", prefer more self-contained stories, and are more accepting of material not being in color.
Again though, all of that is changing.
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the last line of the journal's first visual aid has a pretty straight-forward guideline. define the style by definition, rather than country.
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yeah, but what would be considered isometric,etc. etc. Not all of us are exactly educated in art terms.
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And it's the Information Age. We generally (but not always) have access to art resources via library and educational Internet resources.
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sure it's there, but this is a website for all artists, from the casual to the pro. ...seriously..I really don't know all of these art terms....how can you expect me to look them up if I don't even know them. I'm betting there are a lot of people on this site who don't know any of the terms would be either.
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Now that's just an excuse. 
Googling something as simple as "glossary of art terms" is a good place to start, even if one doesn't know complicated art terms, you know? (And they're not too bad; anyone can learn them is they take a little time to go through them. They're pretty straightforward.) I think reading and researching is something we as a society tend not to do anymore because we want our information in soundbytes and catchy phrases like twitter, with a short amount of characters and very little time invested. >.>
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Ok, nice thanks. I will look it up.
But I still think it'll kill the fun on Deviantart and make it less...casual if we take out all of these more casual terms. Not everyone here wants to really go far with art...they just want to have fun and draw. I'm very sure there are other sites professionals/the art educated can go on. Deviantart isn't that place to be so serious.
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I think, on the whole, generalization is the easy "out" of the person who doesn't want to be educated and who doesn't want to become a student of art. "Shut up and draw," is the easy out. To commit to being an artist...is to be a lifelong student of everything related to art. Everything that's out there. I meet a professional guy who draws Batman, but he's versed in art noveau. I think a lot of people assume cartoonists and comic artists are not students of art and art history, but in my experience at least, it couldn't be further from the truth!
As for serious art study... If one invests even just the tiniest bit, it's easier to globally pick out similarities, differences, and cross-culture among all sorts of art. 
------------------------------------------------
A small word on manga that has NOTHING to do with the argument. It's just something I wanted to tell you, Maximo. As a young girl, there wasn't a lot for me to read. My uncle was drawing comics filled with blood and people being run over. And it just didn't appeal to me. (Made me cry, actually. For probably a whole hour, as a child.)
The point is, he looked really hard for stuff that I could read and that would appeal to me. I read "Leave it to Chance" but it got canceled. I read "Bone" by Jeff Smith, too. But more and more, he started bringing home manga. I was a little girl, I liked sparkles and pretty things and fun action. More than a style drawing me in, it was simply the demographics that won. At the time, manga wasn't a style for me. It was just a...open field of stories that a young girl could read.
It wasn't violent superheroes or men on steroids or danger girl with hard, cold nipples. Which at the time, that's mostly what I SAW in the comic store. This was around 1995-1997, and the stories had sort of pigeon-holed in my memory... Superheroes, naked girls. I was really confused. As a kid, I saw superheroes on TV, right? Marketed at kids. But when I walked into a comic shop, I'd see the same character...in stories markete at ADULTS. It may be my fuzzy memories, but those comic shops lost me -- the child demographic -- at that time. It seems like there was a fissure somehow somewhere. Like all the little boys grew up and forgot what attracted them as kids themselves to comics in their heyday. It's like everything grew away from good old-fashioned fun at that time...for me, anyways... In short, it felt like there was nothing for me to read (in those stores)!
And then....manga started coming in. There were suddenly issues of things I could read. I liked the girly stories and the young adventure stories. I even liked the war stories with compelling characters and mechanical wonders jumping off the page (Area 88 and Grey and Blade of the Immortal). Saint Tail, Miracle Girls, and Sailor Moon and eventually Dragon Ball. There was more stuff in my age range and stuff that interested me, and I think, on the whole, this is the true appeal of the manga movement in my lifetime. At the time I was in little comic shops in a little town, the manga that hit the shelves found a wider demographic of readership, since there were categories for everyone.
Disclaimer: I'm not saying that all shops had no Western stuff to be read by children or that Hentai doesn't have some of the same objectionable material as what was out in the western market at that time. But my memories as a small child in those particular shops... The Manga that was imported...it's what I as one of the smallest members of the comic community at that time gravitated towards. It's what I saw and was interested in. Not just cause of pretty eyes. It was simply the content being more accessible to me. That means the themes, characters - whole package. *^^*
Just my fun little story. Dunno why but I felt like sharing a look through my eyes.
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Aw, shit. Hide the extra please. Don't know WHY it doubled up like that.
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I think, on the whole, generalization is the easy "out" of the person who doesn't want to be educated and who doesn't want to become a student of art. "Shut up and draw," is the easy out. To commit to being an artist...is to be a lifelong student of everything related to art. Everything that's out there. I meet a professional guy who draws Batman, but he's versed in art noveau. I think a lot of people assume cartoonists and comic artists are not students of art and art history, but in my experience at least, it couldn't be further from the truth!
As for serious art study... If one invests even just the tiniest bit, it's easier to globally pick out similarities, differences, and cross-culture among all sorts of art.
------------------------------------------------
A small word on manga that has NOTHING to do with the argument. It's just something I wanted to tell you, Maximo. As a young girl, there wasn't a lot for me to read. My uncle was drawing comics filled with blood and people being run over. And it just didn't appeal to me. (Made me cry, actually. For probably a whole hour, as a child.)
The point is, he looked really hard for stuff that I could read and that would appeal to me. I read "Leave it to Chance" but it got canceled. I read "Bone" by Jeff Smith, too. But more and more, he started bringing home manga. I was a little girl, I liked sparkles and pretty things and fun action. More than a style drawing me in, it was simply the demographics that won. At the time, manga wasn't a style for me. It was just a...open field of stories that a young girl could read.
It wasn't violent superheroes or men on steroids or danger girl with hard, cold nipples. Which at the time, that's mostly what I SAW in the comic store. This was around 1995-1997, and the stories had sort of pigeon-holed in my memory... Superheroes, naked girls. I was really confused. As a kid, I saw superheroes on TV, right? Marketed at kids. But when I walked into a comic shop, I'd see the same character...in stories markete at ADULTS. It may be my fuzzy memories, but those comic shops lost me -- the child demographic -- at that time. It seems like there was a fissure somehow somewhere. Like all the little boys grew up and forgot what attracted them as kids themselves to comics in their heyday. It's like everything grew away from good old-fashioned fun at that time...for me, anyways... In short, it felt like there was nothing for me to read (in those stores)!
And then....manga started coming in. There were suddenly issues of things I could read. I liked the girly stories and the young adventure stories. I even liked the war stories with compelling characters and mechanical wonders jumping off the page (Area 88 and Grey and Blade of the Immortal). Saint Tail, Miracle Girls, and Sailor Moon and eventually Dragon Ball. There was more stuff in my age range and stuff that interested me, and I think, on the whole, this is the true appeal of the manga movement in my lifetime. At the time I was in little comic shops in a little town, the manga that hit the shelves found a wider demographic of readership, since there were categories for everyone.
Disclaimer: I'm not saying that all shops had no Western stuff to be read by children or that Hentai doesn't have some of the same objectionable material as what was out in the western market at that time. But my memories as a small child in those particular shops... The Manga that was imported...it's what I as one of the smallest members of the comic community at that time gravitated towards. It's what I saw and was interested in. Not just cause of pretty eyes. It was simply the content being more accessible to me. That means the themes, characters - whole package. *^^*
Just my fun little story. Dunno why but I felt like sharing a look through my eyes.
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I'm going to make this simple as possible, art is in fact not exclusive to any region in the world, we as artist have the freedom to draw ANYTHING, whether for good or for worse. What we draw or paint or create or animate is our and what we put into is either a reflection of ourselves or our ideas or fantasies, combine this with what ever medium we use whether it be "manga" or "anime" or "graffiti" "or "cubism" it gives us a style. This is how we want to be known by our style not ",DUR, my style is anime/manga" :l
my 2 cents. :T
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i think graffiti and cubism are styles they have a clear focus and method. Manga is too nebulous to be a style, within it there are styles though.
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This is so great because it hardly applies just to anime, it applies to everything and all studies of art.
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You may have started a revolution here my friend, and i support the cause, haha bring some noise to this fake silence on what we are.
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I keep trying to write something thought provoking in response, but I can not get one, simple thought out of my head:
I believe that you, Maximo, deal with more inane, mass consumers of culture than I do. I believe that, if this is true, you deal with a lot more uneducated, opinionated bullshit. To these thoughts, if they are true, I am sorry for your position, for I think I would snap.
These thoughts lead me towards my opinion that I stated on Tumblr: "Who cares?" The reason I feel that my response, with this explanation of its position, is valid. So here goes:
I assume that the majority of people who make broad, general assumptions to a broad array of artists and their work, in this case by pooling all artwork which resembles or derives from Japanese comic art, lacking in forethought and personal experience. Anyone who would instantly discredit an artist or their work, despite all items of concern, simply because it exudes a certain style which suggests to them a general opinion, is a lacking individual. (Does this not make sense yet?) What I'm trying to say is, these peoples' opinions are of no importance. These peoples' opinions may perpetuate a "style generalization" or a "style discrimination", but I highly doubt that these people have a strong foothold or impression on a vast audience of people. I'm sure I'm wrong, there could be artists out there with thousands of fans who tell those fans that "anime" is bad and harmful to your growth as an artist, harmful to the industry, etc. However, they are entitled to their lacking opinion.
The reason they're entitled to their vapid opinion is the same reason that we are entitled to ours: we are further educated and have a better understanding of the subject. We understand certain values to be present that the latter can not comprehend. This is a valid attribution which brings us paid work. Even if it did not bring paid work, it would still be valid.
----
I'm not even done, but I'm getting confused. I might add more to this after I germinate on it more. Let it be understood that I have not made my point in its entirety (oh boy!)
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Well said,
And traveling the internet and poking my head into everything, I find horrible amounts of "wow you should know better than that." But no one educates them, and I doubt most art teachers will educate them in this topic either unfortunately.
I think simply put , these people are entitled to their opinion however, I feel like if I can educate a few, perhaps they will go and educate others? ...It seems like a responsible thing to do with the few viewers I have. Hopefully it'll come back and make a positive impact for me and my comic brethren?
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Couldn't agree more with "anime/manga" not being a style. It is pretty much only means "cartoons/comics from Japan". Within anime/manga there is so much variety in the styles of individual artists. I could just compare the comics within Weekly Jump just to illustrate the point that every artist has their own individual quirks. Of course the artists are going to draw from their own cultural interests and what the market finds appealing, but you couldn't say that One Piece is the same style as Bleach, and neither are the same style as To Love Ru. They are clearly related as they are words and pictures laid out in panels, but that is the same as every other country that produces comics. What really ticks me off is how my local bookstore used to keep American/European graphic novels and manga together on side-by-side shelves, and now with a restructuring of the store has left the two sections separate. I realize the target audiences tend to be different, but they're *comics*. And it's equally confusing that Osamu Tezuka would be lumped in with Batman and The Watchmen, whereas Scott Pilgrim gets lumped in with Naruto. Just rename the sections to "Western comics" and "Japanese comics" and put artists in their respective geographical regions, rather than try to decipher the art style and arbitrarily assign them to a shelf.
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SIIIIIIIIGH.
Good fight, *speedking . Very competent analysis/rebuttals! I think there are some things I do disagree with slightly, but just as opinions, not enough to think that you're "wrong."
One of the best sources of ammunition for this debate, I think, is Sazae-san. The forty-year-running anime is the most popular anime EVERY week, with the highest viewship rates by far (totally outstripping Naruto), and yet it looks nothing like "typical" anime.
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i been mulling this over fir about 2 -3 years, but i decided dive in and test my arguement ;D
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I don't know. Maybe it's because I'm so close to this stuff, but if I didn't have prior knowledge of where each of your examples came from I'd still guess right.
I suppose transposing that knowledge onto others might be incorrect. But I can see traits common in art from each region that I find hard to explain, almost a kind of tacit knowledge.
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well its not about guessing its about comparing,
You could tell this was Japanese because its obviously Japanese people doing Japanese things, but the art style itself is not region specific. [link]
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Your past two journals on this are perhaps the most intelligent discussion I've seen on dA in a LONG time. I never really thought about this before you brought it to attention, because I sort of just had a generic anime style in mind. But there really isn't an anime/manga style. People are getting influenced by all sorts of art from all over the world in this age of modern communication, so I see a lot of American artists, for example, with elements from multiple artists from all over the globe.
Don't let the morons get you down. :/ Some people are so quick to jump on OMG DON'T INSULT MAI ANIMU.
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Don't let this all get to you man. I know you're passionate about this but you can't win against SOME people. There's just too much ignorance. I'm right there with you, believe me. :3
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but not winning is no excuse not to try, even if just a few people change their views surely it's worth it?
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Well I know, and he's trying, I get it, but I just dont want him to get TOO worked up over it. If he does, then it's kinda like losing. XD It's kinda like religion. Just let people believe what they want to believe. If everyone thinks their way is correct, we'll just never stop fighting.
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I've seen your latest deviation and the first thing that crossed my mind, is that I wish people will see more like you because these stereotypes not only apply to the artistic world but to how people view people of other cultures.
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This discussion is really fascinating, I love the points you bring up. And although I was confused at first, I'm grasping the ideals presented a lot more. It's hard to get away from blanket terms like "style", and since thats how things seem to be marketed it'll continue to be used, unfortunately. (Hence the "all anime is the same" statement that I hear often) I am enjoying your journals thoroughly though! Thank you!
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I do have to say I very much like your journal.
I've had my work by family members call my "style" anime, but I don't think it is. It is more of an influence of the Japanese culture in it. I've had had professor's call my style cartoonist. That being said Anime and Manga is just that a cartoon but in form of their culture. It's all the same. The Japanese people who do things like this take inspiration from their cultural prints. Not everyone but its there. Now to call that a style I just dont see it. There are too many manga artist who do different styles that you cannot group manga in a whole as style. I wouldn't consider Kohta Hirano and Shohei Manabe the same style. In fact they are not. they are very far from it.
Now the question comes down to why do some read manga's over western comics? I still read both and I don't even know why I read manga's. I guess I like being diverse and learning history in the making. Though fictional Comics go back to ancient history. I think calling such things a style is incorrect. It just needs to be a movement just as we call Cubism, Modernism, Post Modernism, Surrealism, Dada, and many more. Learning a lot about art history I do know that in these movements, the artist do not look at all the same! That's whats sets them apart from others. Making them famous before their death or even after.
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I'm glad you're choosing to fight for this. Maybe, just maybe, you when enlighten some ignorant, close-minded people who have no better understanding. And the examples you gave are amazing. I wish at some point you would have compared "Akira" to "Pokemon" or "Berserk" to "Cardcaptor Sakura".
I know there is still going to be idiots out there who are willing to butt heads with you no matter what, because we all know that some people just CAN NOT be proved wrong.
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