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Mon311 — Frustrated pomf
#bed #dawn #prison #sheep #spoilers #zootopia #bellwether #pomf
Published: 2016-03-26 05:45:56 +0000 UTC; Views: 4252; Favourites: 111; Downloads: 31
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Maybe working in a broom closet wasn't so bad.A spoilery request for the cute wrong sheep.
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Comments: 43
Fluffyness! Evil, evil, loveable fluffyness!
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I love her face, her character, the prison outfit.
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Love her face here. And actually, that mattress looks pretty comfortable !
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Thanks. Poor Bellwether can't escape being cute, much like Judy.
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That diabolical cuddle-bug. X3
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I could hate Bellwether if I wanted to, but I can't seem to. Sure, she needs to pay for her crimes in prison, but at least her life was spared in the end because like Hans and Callaghan, she doesn't deserve to die. I feel her actions and motives were based on more than just Lionheart's mistreatment, possibly what she experienced as a child and teenager from other predators. I wish we could have known more about her backstory, just like Nicky and Judy, but I understand if movies can't always reveal every single detail, and sometimes save that for a graphic novel, animated short, or sequel.
Some people may see all villains as pure evil with no redeeming qualities, but most of them have had a reason to do what they did. Other villains like Joker, Riddler, Fire Lord Ozai, Princess Azula, and Hama the Blood-Bender deserve worse and have done a lot worse than Bellwether.
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I agree. Good to know I'm not the only one who feels this way.
We were given a clear look into the troubles of Nick and Judy's past, so why was Dawn, another key character denied that? It would have further legitimized her motive.
But it never happen, forcing us to speculate.
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True, I know Dawn herself isn't a complete saint, but I don't see her as a true monster either for some reason. I just feel there is something about her that she's not telling anybody, possibly too ashamed to reveal it, even to Nick and Judy, and even if she did, they'd most likely never believe her about it. Sometimes I get sick of the "evil for the sake of being evil" cliché used with almost every villain when there are those that deserve sympathy like Bellwether here. Why deny Dawn a backstory and just leave a whole lot of unanswered questions about the night howler scandal? I hate when they do that and just expect us to believe they are born evil and power hungry, but are not. So we are left to guess that she had more than one reason behind her motives other than Lionheart. Now I have a bad feeling of how other predator inmates will be treating her during each day she spends in prison.
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Again, I agree.
Recently, I was having a debate/discussion with a friend of mine over what constitutes a "good" or "bad" villain. My definition for a good villain is one that has a clearly defined, understandable motive, thus making them sympathetic. The opposite of this, a "bad" villain, logically, would be an individual who's exactly how you put it: "evil for the sake of being evil". For me, The only sort of villain that should be exempt from that are comical villains, who's purpose is to serve as a source of opposition to the perpetually victorious heros as well as a source of humor with their hopelessly absurd plans for world domination (or whatever other "evil" scheme the cliché calls for).
GOOD villains, the ones writers intend audiences to take seriously, however, are without such excuse.
Dawn was done a disservice by being denied the closer, humanizing look the protagonists were given. It's frustrating, because I know the writers' intention was to make Dawn out as unequivocally evil, excluding any elements of the plot that would give audiences reason to sympathize with her.
Heck, Hopps even was given better reason to hate predators considering her childhood. But why not Dawn?
It's almost as if the only justification they'd ever want to provide for viewers sympathizing with her would be because she's "cute".
Ah well. There's better anthro fiction out there. Stuff more complex than Zootopia could ever hope to be.
I like your gallery, by the way. You emulate the "classic" Disney style very well.
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I love the details on what makes a good or bad villain. While some "evil for the sake of being evil" villains are epic in their own way and are meant to be that way, I prefer the villains who have more than one silly reason behind their motives, which is why I made the list meme of villains I feel sorry for since most of their reasons for how they came to be what they are remind me of myself, understanding their hidden pain and rage. Comical villains I have no problem with as long as they are not made too comical more than evil and can still pose a threat to the heroes.
I just hate the way Dawn was written to make it look like all of this was only because of Mayor Lionheart which is hardly convincing enough as Nick and Judy were given flashbacks to their childhood, but just because Dawn is the twist villain is no excuse to make her so underdeveloped and only show one lousy reason as it leaves most viewers convinced, but others see it more as her being pushed and bullied by many predators throughout her life because of what she is, a sheep that could never amount to anything in the world of the large folk. Her story just better not be finished there just like that when there is so much about her I want to know. Even villains should be given a deeper meaning for their actions instead of one, and I know that Dawn has many that she's possibly too ashamed to reveal, attempting to hide her weaknesses, but it's only a matter of time before those bottled up emotions burst out.
Thanks for liking my gallery. I will keep many more drawings coming.
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Well, thank you.
Where exactly is this list, your gallery? I haven't seen it.
If you'll tolerate my sullen attitude, I'll say that I don't share your hopefulness; Dawn Bellwether is a lost cause as far as I'm concerned. Any attempt to explore her backstory in a second installment would come off as sloppy fix, as the mistake with that character should have never been made in the first place.
Within the ocean of praise the movie has received, I've had to dive to find anything critical of Zootopia; one review in particular hit the error made with Dawn on the head:
"Her chief, for instance, is a big hulking water buffalo. He’s technically prey, but he certainly looks and acts like a traditional predator. Except that some predators are small - like oxes and foxes - and so the story strand that sees Judy and the assistant mayor - a confused sheep - bonding over ‘little guys versus big guys’ only adds a layer of complexity to the allegory that I think the film can’t quite sustain."
(Link to the rest of the article if you're interested: birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/03/0… (While the author's take on the film is incorrect at certain aspects, the analysis of Dawn's role is accurate 100%))
Bottom line:
Zootopia tried too hard and failed. If a sequel were to be made, I doubt Dawn (assuming she even makes an appearance) would be focused on enough to where a view into her backstory would be appropriate; the new movie would probably have a new antagonist.
There's a considerable about of fanfiction out there, are you aware of any that attempts to explore how Dawn could've (should've) been presented?
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Well it would really suck too much if they just left Dawn in the dark as just another "evil for the sake of being evil" villain who only wanted nothing more than money and power. They've already done this annoying route with Randall Boggs, Lotso, Lord Shen, and Prince Hans (until "A Frozen Heart" book was released). Because they are villains, that means they deserve no deeper motive or backstory and try to make us believe their story is finished, but when it comes to this, it remains unfinished with still many unanswered questions. Judging by most of the words in their "plotting" you know there is always something more they are not telling anyone, that there is more than one reason behind everything.
Well you never know what sequels will hold if studios listen to what fans want, and I know I shouldn't get my hopes up, but I'm not convinced that Lionheart was a total victim like everyone is treating it like. I wish that Dawn had been an ally instead of a villain just to throw in a point or two, demonizing her all the way as if she was born that way to begin with, and now it gives one a bad feeling if it's only a matter of time before sheep are the next mammals to face discrimination and labeled as nothing but terrorists due to the actions of Bellwether which I'm sure was not on her mind. It would have been great if she had been suspected to be a culprit at first, but revealed to be a victim/pawn held captive by the real mastermind. I just know her story is unfinished and they owe us more development for her.
Thanks for the link. Even if there are most points I disagree with, some of them are right, especially with how Dawn Bellwether is unfairly handled and demonized when she is underdeveloped that it leaves many questions about the night howler scandal unanswered. I've seen some fanfiction that reveals how she should have been handled.
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Indeed, it would suck.
The villain short cut is just that, a short cut. The writers put so much time and effort into trying to make the protagonists endearing and relatable, that the presentation of the villain becomes unimportant; if the viewers rally behind the "good guys", it's all good to them.
I honestly don't know what to think about Lionheart other than the fact that he was simply looking to save his own skin. Self-centered and cowardly, yes. But no behavior tantamount to an antagonist and definitely not to a villain.
Also wouldn't know what to think of Bellwether if she turned out to be someone's pawn. What she did in the first film was so elaborate, I can't think of a master plot to top it.
Well, what is it that the fans want exactly?
Viewers with opinions such as ours are in the minority anyway. If anything, the main things the fans want is for Wildehopps to be made canon (because you know, any two protagonists of the opposite sex are ALWAYS compatible 😒). Anyway, I doubt the writing staff would even acknowledge that Dawn's handling was problematic, so I see any attempt to explore her unlikely.
I mean, how many other people have you seen actually discussing what we're talking about now? And even when it is seen, it's hardly done by the people who need to (film critics who have a direct effect on the accolades the film considered for).
If a sequel was made it wouldn't be a surprise to see an alienation of sheep by the public. (That was actually a plot feature for one fanfiction I particularly like) Sure, the overall message of the first film was "not all (insert discriminated against group)" but leave it to the public to forget Gazelle's plea for unity and go right back to their old beliefs. That's just human nature, which in this case is everyone's nature. The inclusion of that would be a nice touch of realism.
Anyway, thank you again for to the talk, it's good to find those who have a view of Zootopia other than "GREATEST ANIMATED FILM OF 2016".
Quick question; Unrelated: Have you seen Sing?
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Forgot to answer: I have seen "Sing" and I love that animal anthro film as much as Zootopia.
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To me, Lionheart was neither a good guy or a bad guy, but when he said "I'll be ruined" instead of "The city will be ruined" he didn't sound too concerned about the city, but more about his own reputation as mayor since he himself was predator. As I was saying, it seems movie studios only want us to love, care for, and root for the heroes in every single movie because the villain is nothing more than a villain who just wants money, power, and world domination as they want us to believe, and even make the villain do things so we can have any reason to keep on hating them for the sake of it, because they're villains and are not that important. It's like none of those animated studios believe in redemption for any of them. I'll admit some villains are just too far gone and too hateful to ever be redeemed, but there are still those who are just lost and confused from everything.
Well even if Dawn never were to appear in the sequel, at least showing her again in a future graphic novel or spin off series to reveal the truth of her motives would be interesting and a huge twist to see, such as being the pawn of the real criminal mastermind that got her involved forcefully either through blackmail or a drug that alters her free will. One idea to top off the first plot would be attempting to destroy the sheep community coming from a criminal organization of predator and prey mixed. I sure ain't no cartoon or movie genius myself, but I can only think of what would answer those questions that never got answered in the film during the scandal. But maybe I'm just getting my hopes up too high about things, as there was each a different villain in all three Kung Fu Panda films. So maybe I'm too naïve and stupid to ever think movie studios would care enough to know what fans want out of underdeveloped villains as they still want us to believe all Disney/Pixar villains deserve hate and hostility for being villains and nothing more. But come on, why would the staff not be smart enough to see that Dawn is so underdeveloped and so rushed with her reveal that they want us to assume she only wanted to be assistant mayor so she can later have money and power? That is not even a real answer for her there. I just know there is more about her they refuse to fix right now. But I guess that's just me I presume. I just never understand leaving this underdevelopment of so-called diabolical villains with a lack of a backstory or further motivations, or why it must now involve "nice" characters instead of the ones we hate already from the start. That would be easier.
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I think a tv series would be appropriate. If Tangled is getting a series (as well as another movie to kick the whole thing off), Zootopia would be no less deserving of one of its own in my view.I think would be interesting to see Dawn in her current state, which I'm inclined to believe would involve some form of rehabilitation. From there she could be given the opportunity to open up about her past.
It's something to think about.
Considering the cash cow that Zootopia turned out to be, a series should actually be expected some time down the road.
Who's the best villain or rather, best handled villain you've seen in fiction?
Alrighty, I was just curious with your view on that film. As much as I hate to do so, it's difficult to NOT compare the two.
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Terribly sorry for the late reply, but I think the best handled villains to me that are real dictators and megalomaniacs bent on destruction, power, fear, tyranny, and dictatorship are Fire Lord Ozai and Kuvira. Also Hama the Blood-bender is one of the darkest animated villains in cartoon history.
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I'm unfamiliar with those characters.
Could you elaborate?
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Fire Lord Ozai is from the series "Avatar: The Last Airbender" and Kuvira is from "The Legend of Korra" You can find information about them on Villains WIKI if you want me to send the link.
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I wonder if you read the 4chan comment about how the left knee could be improved.
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Yeah I kind of screwed that up pretty big but didn't notice until it was too late. I have to be more careful about how stuff looks before I get to the inking phase.
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Inking mistakes can easily be fixed with white ink. I fixed my mistakes many times.
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Don't have any. But I suppose that's an investment I should make at some point.
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Dr Martin's while ink is the only one I have, and it's pretty cheap. However, since you rarely use it, I won't suspect it ruins brushes (mine are fine). It might take several strokes to cover an area completely, and you have to wait for each layer to dry. The end result though is pretty good; new ink lays well on top of it, as well as pencil. I used white ink in this piece fav.me/d8iu97r and I don't think you will find where.
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Wow! Splendid job. I hope she does return so we know her full backstory like we did with Judy and Nick and have both of them connect with Dawn and help her redeem herself.
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I'd also really like to know her fully story but I don't thin she'll be redeemed. She did a lot of bad things and although I do not feel as harshly as the guy below me, she's going to have to pay for her crimes. The little we saw of her before the turn does make me think there is more to her than the bad things we saw though.
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Yes exactly! But why I think she should be redeemed is because she was the one doing all the hard work for the office and keeping the city on its wheels and never getting the credit she right deserves. She never asked for anything and for all we know, she may have had it even worse than Nick and Judy.
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If any of those redeemed villains like Prince Zuko, Gantu, Princess Luna, Discord, Trixie, Gilda Griffon, Diamond Tiara, Sunset Shimmer, and Starlight Glimmer can be capable of mending their ways and learning to accept friendship, love, trust, and forgiveness, surely it can happen for Bellwether, even if she still had to stay behind bars to serve out the rest of her sentence. Also I got another image of Bellwether coming up.
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Cool! Can't wait to see it. BTW, you've got a new note.
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Thank you, I'm willing to read it right now.
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I hope you are not making the argument that cute things cannot just be evil. Potential murderers should not be redeemed; they wanted to KILL people.
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I highly doubt she wanted to kill given that none of the other 14 infected died nor did their victims. She may have caused that scare with Judy, but then she sought to frame them afterwards when her plans were foiled. That is why I doubt her killing intent.
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Sure, turning a predator savage next to a bunny. She didn't REALLY want to kill Judy, just SCARE her!
Not buying it, not ever. Sheep was evil, and deserves a life sentence for attempted murder and conspiring to oppress thousands of people.
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People are allowed to have different views on villains all they want, just as people are allowed to think of them as nothing but pure evil. I'm aware that some cute things are evil for no real reason, but it's so funny how some people are easily fooled into thinking no villain can ever have redeeming qualities, regardless of their backstory, including the tragic villains. If you don't wanna buy that Bellwether is not a broken soul, be my guest. But I think there are far worse villains that deserve a life sentence with no parole, like the Joker, Firelord Ozai, Princess Azula, and Hama the Blood-bender. Those villains have done far worse than Bellwether in my opinion.
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Like I said, it didn't happened with 14 other animals and I doubt it would happened with Judy.
Besides, Nick was leading a life of crime before he became a cop remember. He wasn't tried for skinning a skunk's butt you know.
I know what she did was wrong, but she was in the right for feeling oppressed, underappreciated and underestimated
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It's too bad some people are already fooled easily into believing that Bellwether like other villains such as Randall Boggs, Mr. Freeze, Two-Face, Baby Doll, Phantom of the Opera, or even Lord Shen are evil to the core with no redeeming qualities, but born to be evil. I'm still not buying and refuse to buy the fact that Bellwether was born to be pure evil and hate predators for no real reason like some are already believing. I still believe there is more to her than what the movie is telling us. We found out before in Monsters University that Randall Boggs wasn't always what he was in the film, and may someday find his chance at being reformed, even in prison.
We're not saying that Bellwether should get off easy for what she did, she does need to pay for her crimes in prison, but she does NOT deserve to die, and does not deserve the death penalty. All villains have done something against the heroes that involves life threatening or even attempted murder. But that doesn't mean some of them can find their way again. If any of those reformed villains can be capable of ever earning trust and forgiveness, surely Bellwether can, if she wants to of course. I too believe she was in the right for feeling oppressed, underappreciated, and underestimated. It doesn't mean her actions were right, but I feel she had a reason, other than just Lionheart. She could have just taken the easy way out by killing those predators, or even Lionheart anytime, but instead she framed him. She could have killed Nick and Judy instantly and then fled, but didn't. I am now doubting her killing intentions.
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I know, it's really baffling. She could have even darted Dr. Honey Badger and prevented the cure from ever being made, but she didn't. Either way the doctors were going to crack it sooner or later.
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Huh, that's a very good point. She could have easily darted Dr. Honey Badger, and then turned her on Lionheart. Simplest solution ever, no fuss, no muss. Have you ever SEEN a honey badger fight?
*Addressing the police with fake sobs* "I tried to stop her, but honey badgers just take what they want!"
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"There there, Deputy Mayor Bellwether, you're safe and sound. Oh, I'm sorry, it's Mayor Bellwether now, isn't it?"
"You're damn right it is." B)
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And it's possible that it would have occurred to the doctors to perform a few blood test samples to see whether or not those predators were going savage naturally, or if there may be more to that as they use their microscopes. She had a chance to dart Lionheart or Dr. Honey Badger if she wanted to, but it never happened.
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