HOME | DD
Nayzak — Way of Proof and Evidence -1
Published: 2012-03-31 04:05:00 +0000 UTC; Views: 24636; Favourites: 176; Downloads: 527
Redirect to original
Description
Assalaamu alaikum [peace be to you],
Got faith?The nature of religious faith is quite mysterious. As part of their religious faiths, people believe in a variety of deities. There are people who have religious faith in the unseen supreme transcendental power and then there are others who believe in some humans as Gods, animals, fire, idols made of stone, and the list goes on...
A lot is associated with having a religious “faith”. Part of it has to do with beliefs passed on through generations. People’s identities therefore get tied to it. Many times, these beliefs and associated feelings are not completely demonstrable by reason or any rational arguments. There is nothing right or wrong with this but that’s just how the nature of religious faith has come to be.
Everyone thinks they are right in their faith and beliefs. Being with people and groups with similar faiths further strengthens people’s faiths and they see it as “right” even though logical reasoning and argument sometimes can’t explain it all. That’s human psychology.
Islam offers Arguments based on intellectual reasoningMuslims believe however, that the Islamic religion is different in this context. One may argue that similar to other faiths there are aspects of it which are not completely demonstrable by reason. but on the other hand, the Qur'anic text, which is Allah’s words addressing the humanity at large, uses intellectual reason, critical thinking, and the process of reflection as a means to not only reinforce the faith of the believers but also to call non-believers to ponder about the authenticity of Islam as the way of life for the humanity at large. Although no religious beliefs can be fully based on logic and reasoning, Islam and the Qur'an provide more than enough examples and an opportunity to examine the truth and the soundness of its message through the lens of empirical evidence and knowledge.
No one (Muslim or otherwise) would argue that critical thinking and reflection can be a major catalyst for changing of ones life. Critical thinking has been used by many to improve their lives simply because a critical thinker asks probing questions about a situation, collects as much information as possible, reflects on the ideas collected and generated in context of the information available, keeps an open and unbiased mind and carefully scrutinizes assumptions and seeks alternatives.
This is the reason therefore that new Muslim converts would attribute the use of intelligent reasoning, reflection and critical thinking when explaining their journey to Islam. Such people cut through the hysteria created by some in the media to view Islam from a critical lens and following the truth thus comes naturally to them as part of this process. How else can one explain the increase in conversions with the increase of anti-Islam rhetoric? How else can one explain that more non-Muslim preachers have been converting to Islam than ever before? Although as Muslims we believe that the guidance (هداية hidaya) comes only from Allah, the use of a person’s God-gifted intellectual reasoning has a very powerful role to play in Muslim converts making that destiny changing decision. And once converted, they rarely go back to their old faiths simply because a faith whose foundations are built on logic and reason is much less likely to be shaken down than one which builds simply upon faith alone, a set of rites and sacraments.
Next, I am going to provide some of the most common reasons of converting to Islam attributed by new Converts.
To be continued, in sha'Allah [God willing]
from [link]
In the drawing: the big green Arabic word "الإسلام" means "Islam", the white Arabic text " دين الحجة و البرهان" means "the way (or religion) of evidence and proof".
For more reading:
if you want to know more about Islam, please visit these websites:
A Quick Introduction To Islam Another Introduction to Islam Seven Common Questions about Islam I hope that was beneficial for you.
Wassalaamu alaikum.
If I am right, it's from The God, if wrong, it's from me...
Related content
Comments: 116
"because the law maker decided so."
Blind faith.
"those who fail will be thrown out of school."
Being thrown out of school and being tortured forever are two different levels of punishment.
"you only want to consider the option that you disobey the God, and then complain that there is an eternal Hell."
The dictator declares that all who don't worship him 24/7 spend the rest of their lives in torture. Is this good or bad?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Blind faith.
that's not blind faith. you are using irrelevant terms.
blind faith means believing in something that you don't understand and can't justify or prove. I could explain things to you and answer your questions. I didn't say 'I don't know but I do believe like this" for any of your questions. so for you using blind faith here is not correct.
your problem is that you question things, but reject those that are not to your liking, and you consider belief in them blind faith.
Being thrown out of school and being tortured forever are two different levels of punishment.
that's because disbelieving in the God and not revising your courses are two different levels of mistakes.
The dictator declares that all who don't worship him 24/7 spend the rest of their lives in torture. Is this good or bad?
you don't seem to know what 'worship' means in Islam. you are probably thinking that worship
do you know that worship in Islam has broader meaning. doing anything in God's way for God's sake can be considered a kind of worship.
for example, if you plant a seed for the sake of the God for you or other people and animals to benefit from, The God will consider it worship and will reward you for it. if you help the needy for the sake of the God, not for any worldly profit, the God will consider it worship and reward you for it. if you give charity for the sake of the God, not so that people say you are generous, the God will consider it worship and reward you for it. if you remove a harmful thing from the road for the sake of the God, not so that people think you are nice, the God will consider it worship and will reward you for it. if you study for the sake of the God in order to improve your life and be beneficial for others, the God will consider it a worship and will reward you for it...
as long as you have the good intention to do something good for the sake of the God, it's considered worship and you get your reward. and furthermore, you only are required to do things based on your abilities. the God doesn't ask you to do more than what you can bear.
besides, I already explained that someone will be tortured if and only if he deserves it. no one will be wronged. he who does an effort will get a reward. he who asks for God's mercy, will receive it. only those who reject it and die while rejecting it will not get it.
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
I'm so sorry for so many comments, but this is getting so deeply interesting I cannot resist xD
ok Just a question, to the 'because the rule maker said so' thing. In the Koran and various other texts there are reasons behind why certain things are considered sin, but not this one..
Don't you believe that God should've given people a bit more of a reason? I mean sure it's to test their faith but it's kinda like just testing people's faith for fun? I don't know, I mean God could've just given a valid reason send it down to Earth, people would see for themselves and everything would be nice and cool. but here we are at such a cliff hanger and all.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
ok Just a question, to the 'because the rule maker said so' thing. In the Koran and various other texts there are reasons behind why certain things are considered sin, but not this one..
Are you really sure of this? did you search the Qur'an and found no reason given for this?
Don't you believe that God should've given people a bit more of a reason? I mean sure it's to test their faith but it's kinda like just testing people's faith for fun?
my friend, the God doesn't make things for fun. he created everything for a purpose. we may or may not know or fully understand the wisdom behind many things. but not understanding something shouldn't be used to justify its purpose.
I don't know, I mean God could've just given a valid reason send it down to Earth, people would see for themselves and everything would be nice and cool. but here we are at such a cliff hanger and all.
The God, in the Qur'an used many approaches in order to explain things. in some parts, he talks to the Atheists, in others, he talks to Pagans, and in others to the Christians and the Jews. in other parts, to the Muslims. and for each kind of people, the God uses different kind of reasoning based on their belief and way of thinking.
as for reasons behind punishment of sins, there are some that are explained in the Qur'an, and others can be concluded with reason or with science and knowledge (Muslim scholars did a great job in explaining these). the Qur'an is not the book of everything. don't expect it to be a world Encyclopedia. we Muslims like to call it the book of signs. it gives many signs, answers many important questions. and leaves the rest to man's understanding.
what we need to know is that the Qur'an provides proof of everything it claims. for example, the Qur'an claims it's divine. it provides proof of its divine origin. if someone reached the level to understand the proof and origin of the Qur'an and now he is convinced and believes it's from the God. whatever is said then, understood or not, is taken as God's world. now if he reads that the God considers disbelief as a sin, this guy will believe it. because its proven that God said that. whether he understands it or not, our understanding is always limited by our intellectual abilities, limited knowledge, wisdom, emotions and open-mindedness. we may not always comprehend everything.
now for the one who still doesn't believe in the existence of the God, why does it bother him whether he is going to be thrown in Hell or not? since he doesn't believe in God in the first place. what he should be asking is not "why does God punish me for disbelief?" but rather it should be "what proof is there that God exists?"
so I believe that guy who was asking earlier, he is asking a question (which is important) but in his case, there is another question with more priority.
Peace
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Well I haven't read the Koran but I believe if there was a reason you wouldn't be saying 'Because the lawmaker said so'
by the way is it ok if I say Koran? or would you rather like me to say Qur'an?
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
"someone will be tortured if and only if he deserves it."
What makes non-belief worthy of eternal punishment?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
know that the God made this earthly life as a test for us. based on our deeds, we will get reward or punishment in the hereafter. what we do in this life reflects what we would do if we had an eternal life here on earth. for example, the one who chooses to believe in the God in this life would make the same choice if the God granted him eternal life on earth. similarly, the one who chooses to disbelieve in this earthly life will continue to disbelieve even if he was granted eternal life on earth. this makes disbelief an eternal sin. and that makes it worthy of eternal punishment.
of course, someone may change during his life (from belief to disbelief and vice versa) but the change we make in this world is big and important. it may result in eternal consequences. that's why we should take this issue seriously and try to make the best decisions before it's late...
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Hold on, getting eternal life most definitely proves that there's a God and if the Gd who gives me eternal life does so in person of course I'm going to believe in them. Or on the flip-side, if I only believed in God because I was scared of what may happen after I die and then suddenly become immortal, I lose that fear and thus lose my respect for God because it was built on fear.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
as a matter of fact, belief in the God is not based on fear alone. in Islam, we love the God, we try to please him, and we also fear him. this fear is not like when you fear a monster or something. it's fearing his punishment when we do wrong. it's called God-consciousness.
man is generally motivated by two things:
a- something they like, so they try to get.
b- something they fear, so they try to avoid.
the God knows this (since he is our creator), he knows what motivates us to do or avoid doing things. so he used the approach of reward/punishment in order to guide our actions and motivate us to do good.
I give you an example: where I am living, some people throw their garbage near the building. they could walk 20 meters and throw it in the trash can, but they are uneducated and lazy to do it. sometimes, they don't even use bags to wrap it... even if you go and explain to them how bad it is to throw their garbage in that way, they won't care. they won't listen. they believe there is a cleaner who will come and clean at night, so what they do is fine.
but now consider if we were to say that for each garbage you throw in the trash can, you get $5. and additional $5 for putting it inside a bag. these people will be happy to throw their garbage properly.
or if we were to say that for each garbage you throw in the way, you pay $5 penalty. these people will be scared to pay so they will throw it properly.
this is human nature. even those who say they do good without any reward, in fact, they aim to get inner satisfaction that they are good, nice and generous people. that feeling is their reward. so in the end, all people, when they do good, they are doing it for a reward. as for those doing evil, they are doing it because they believe "nobody is watching" or "nobody will punish them."
this is why evil and mischief spread more among people who lost faith in the God. (this can also apply on Muslims. when a Muslim strays, he may also also do evil)
as for us, Muslims, we have God' consciousness that reminds us that we are being watched, and we will give account to the God for whatever we do. and this fear allows us to avoid, as much as possible, to do what angers the God.
but even if someone sins (and he will) they can repent. repentance erases the sins.
so, as you can see, the God make a whole system that is perfect in every side. this system enables man to go to heaven. unless man rejects the guidance and warning from the God.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Your example doesn't work because the rewards and punishments come to the person within their lifetime and are far more tangible than Heaven or Hell. As for atheists are morel likely to be evil...
"Texas Department of Criminal Justice, 1999
Source: Peggy Fikac. "More prison inmates say they're Baptist than any other religion." Associated Press (The Abilene Reporter-News)
Baptist 39,781 30.3%
Unknown* 28,890 22.0%
Catholic 23,637 18.0%
Other 39,009 29.7%
-------- ------- ------
Total 131,316 100.0%
* Unknown: "22 percent are categorized as 'unknown,' representing inmates who didn't say or didn't care when asked for their religious denomination." Most of these would be classified functionally in the "nonreligious" category.
* Other: "The rest of the inmates are divided among the categories of Christian Church, Methodist, Church of Christ, Pentecostal, Muslim, Protestant, Jewish, non-denominational, no religious preference and other." "
and
"Possible Recent Statistics For a Fraction of U.S. Prisoners
David Rice has written to us (23 October 2002) concerning the origin of the data in the table below:
The data came from Denise Golumbaski, who was a Research Analyst for the Federal Bureau of Prisons. The data was compiled from up-to-the-day figures on March 5th, 1997. (Note that as of the year 1999, Analyst Golumbaski is no longer working for the Federal Bureau of Prisons; I had telephoned Analyst Golumbaski to request the latest figures, and was told by another analyst that Golumbaski was no longer employed there.) The data was requested by Mr. Rod Swift, who passed it on to me for my web site. I later called the Federal Bureau of Prisons and confirmed that the data did in fact come from their database.
Catholic 29,267 31.432%
Protestant 26,162 28.097%
None/Atheist/Unknown 18,537 19.908%
Muslim 5,435 5.837%
American Indian 2,408 2.586%
Nation of Islam 1,734 1.862%
Rastafarian 1,485 1.595%
Jewish 1,325 1.423%
Church of Christ 1,303 1.399%
Pentecostal 1,093 1.174%
Moorish 1,066 1.145%
Buddhist 882 0.947%
Jehovah's Witnesses 665 0.714%
Adventist 621 0.667%
Eastern Orthodox 375 0.403%
Latter-day Saints 298 0.320%
Scientology 190 0.204%
Hindu 119 0.128%
Santeria 117 0.126%
Sikh 14 0.015%
Baha'i 9 0.010%
ISKCON 7 0.008%
-------------------- ------ --------
Total 93,112 100.000%"
and
"Appendix: 1997 Federal Bureau of Prisons from Denise Golumbaski, as formatted in Rice/Swift
Note that in this version, the names of a couple of religious groups remain non-standardized, and self-identified "Atheist" remains separate from "Unknown/None."
Response Number %
---------------------------- --------
Catholic 29267 39.164%
Protestant 26162 35.008%
Muslim 5435 7.273%
American Indian 2408 3.222%
Nation 1734 2.320%
Rasta 1485 1.987%
Jewish 1325 1.773%
Church of Christ 1303 1.744%
Pentecostal 1093 1.463%
Moorish 1066 1.426%
Buddhist 882 1.180%
Jehovah Witness 665 0.890%
Adventist 621 0.831%
Orthodox 375 0.502%
Mormon 298 0.399%
Scientology 190 0.254%
Atheist 156 0.209%
Hindu 119 0.159%
Santeria 117 0.157%
Sikh 14 0.019%
Bahai 9 0.012%
Krishna 7 0.009%
---------------------------- --------
Total Known Responses 74731 100.001% (rounding to 3 digits does this)
Unknown/No Answer 18381
----------------------------
Total Convicted 93112 80.259% (74731) prisoners' religion is known.
Held in Custody 3856 (not surveyed due to temporary custody)
----------------------------
Total In Prisons 96968"
"There is no sociologically valid basis for comparing "theists to nontheists" with regards to incarceration rates (or any other sociological measure) because "theists" do not constitute an identifiable social group. The fact that non-practicing (functionally nonreligious) people are highly over-represented among prisoners is a separate issue, apart from questions relating to belief and philosophical position."
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
you are mistaken. reward is a reward, punishment is a punishment. whether it's in this earthly life or the hereafter. for the one who believes in the God, punishment or reward in this world or in the hereafter are still punishment and reward. it makes no difference. while for atheists, since they don't believe in the hereafter, their actions are only motivated by punishments and rewards in this earthly life.
but what you provided doesn't prove that punishment and rewards don't motivate people to do good and avoid evil.
therefore, if you think it can justify the non necessity of hell, then it doesn't help.
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
Hey, if a person in afterlife wishes to just not exist, would God grant that wish?
I'm asking impossible questions I know. :S
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Hey, if a person in afterlife wishes to just not exist, would God grant that wish?
Well, only the God can answer that question. I can not tell you what would the God do because all I say is merely based on my limited knowledge.
but one thing you need to know: the God always rules with justice. if justice implies this person should keep existing, then the God will not grant his wish. but if justice implies that he should cease to exist, then the God may do it.
if a person goes to heaven, he will have no reason to ask for such a thing. heaven is a beautiful place that people would like to live in.
if a person goes to hell, then he must have done, in this earthly life, things that made him deserve punishment. to ask the God to end his life merely to escape punishment will probably not be granted. because that punishment is part of divine justice.
and the God knows best.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
"for the one who believes in the God, punishment or reward in this world or in the hereafter are still punishment and reward. it makes no difference."
Ok, I'll point it out for you. Punishment and reward in this world are finite as in they don't last forever. Punishment and reward in the afterlife is infinite as in they do last forever.
"if you think it can justify the non necessity of hell, then it doesn't help."
Justify Hell beyond the excuse of "God says so," I want an explanation on what Hell is able to accomplish. Nobody who goes there ends up able to accomplish anything, for even if they learn their lesson they're trapped there forever.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
there are two kinds of punishments:
1- punishment that aims to correct the wrongdoer. this kind of punishment is the one we may face in this world.
2- punishment that is conclusion of the test in this life. this is the punishment of the hereafter.
when you ask "what does the punishment in hell achieve?"
my answer is this "it achieves justice." the wrongdoer gets his fair punishment just like the good-doer gets his fair reward. so Hell is a place where wrong-doers pay for their evil in this earthly life.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
"the wrongdoer gets his fair punishment just like the good-doer gets his fair reward."
Except they don't because finite actions do not deserve infinite reward or punishment. Even if you do your evil specifically in the name of spiting God your have finite actions against an infinite God. Also, what if you do good in spite of God? Like if I were to donate to charity and give my free time towards helping build homes all in the name of showing I don't need God to do good? That would mean I got sent to Hell for doing good deeds.
"so Hell is a place where wrong-doers pay for their evil in this earthly life."
Once again, finite action versus infinite punishment. Now let me try to explain my position to you.
According to you I will be going to Hell forever for not believing in your God. Not for doing bad things like murdering or stealing, but for having a different belief. How is this just? Where is the inherent evil in disbelief?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
finite actions do not deserve infinite reward or punishment.
you don't seem to be reading my replies. I already answered this point. I explained that what we do in this life reflects what we would do in an infinite life.
imagine your kid is learning multiplications. you ask him 2x3 and he answers. you ask him again the same question. he answers. will you ask him the same question 100 or 100 000 times? no need. because they already grasped it and understood it. they will give you the same answer.
now things are a little similar with life. those whop found the truth now, they would follow it even if granted infinite life. while those who rejected the truth now, they would keep rejecting it even if granted infinite life. infinite life may seem amazing. but if everyone has it, many people will take it for granted (like they are doing for many of God's gifts)
Also, what if you do good in spite of God? Like if I were to donate to charity and give my free time towards helping build homes all in the name of showing I don't need God to do good?
the reward is based on the intentions of the individual. you will get what you want to get.
if you do good for the purpose of showing you don't need God, then you get what you wanted. you will convince yourself with delusions and convince ignorant people around you. but in the judgment day, you can't ask the God "I did good, won't you reward me?"
he will reply "you did it in order to show you don't need me, and you got what you wanted"
know that there are many people who do good things in order to earn an earthly reward or wrong purpose. these people don't have pure intentions. so in the day of judgment, they will be the losers.
That would mean I got sent to Hell for doing good deeds.
no. you won't be sent to hell for doing good. you will be sent to hell for doing evil (disbelieving in the God, and arrogance and pride)
Except they don't because finite actions do not deserve infinite reward or punishment.
According to you I will be going to Hell forever for not believing in your God. Not for doing bad things like murdering or stealing, but for having a different belief. How is this just? Where is the inherent evil in disbelief?
no. if you go to hell, it's for doing bad things. and disbelief IS A BAD THING. you are doing like any criminal does. the murderer and thief do not see their actions as bad things. they try to convince themselves that what they do doesn't deserve a harsh punishment. this is delusional. and I already explained to you that the one who decides the punishments for crimes is not the one who commits the crime, but the one who applies the law. if the God, being the judge in judgment day, is the one who makes the law. we, as humans can either follow it, and get his reward, or disobey it and get the punishment.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
"I explained that what we do in this life reflects what we would do in an infinite life."
No it is not, because we do is with the knowledge that we will die some day. Giving someone eternal life changes a number of variables and leads towards numerous outcomes. I know that I will die some day, so I avoid situations that lead me towards death. If I knew that I would never die I could do almost anything I wanted without repercussion. I could jump off of buildings or shoot myself in the head, these things I wouldn't normally do with finite life. With finite life, I'd rather avoid tall places. With infinite life, I'd be fine.
"disbelief IS A BAD THING"
Why?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
I know that I will die some day, so I avoid situations that lead me towards death.
then if you know that you will be punished for a certain sin, why don't you avoid it?
"disbelief IS A BAD THING"
Why?
the simple answer is that the lawmaker decided so. the one who has all the knowledge, the one who will judge and apply his law.
we may try to understand this judgment based on our limited knowledge and wisdom. but we are in no position to complain and assume we can make better judgment than the almighty God himself. we have different preferences. but we can't decide what's right and what's wrong. because it's not us who created good and evil.
But we have all right to discuss and try to understand why would disbelief be considered the worst sin. Disbelief is a result of a clear challenge to the God. deliberate disobeying of his commandments. denying his existence and denying his gifts and blessings to us. being proud and arrogant and taking all he gave us for granted. in the sight of the God, this sin is great.
Imagine that I gave you a car and a beautiful mansion and then you went and claimed "these are mine. nobody gave me"
now I have no authority over you. I don't own you. so you don't have an obligation to thank me and do things to please me if you didn't want to. your fate and destiny are not in my hand. so even if you were ungrateful for what I did, I can do nothing to you.
but now imagine if your life and death, your destiny and your whole future depends on me. if your whole existence is from my mercy towards you. in this case, a wise person would not behave irresponsibly.
we were nothing and then we were created by the God, he gave us countless gifts and blessings. he gave us the biggest gift (free will), but he also gave us duties and responsibilities. he gave us the perfect way of life to get salvation. he informed us that this earthly life is a life of test. not like of recompense. he informed us that if we follow his commandments, we will get more blessings. while if we disobey them, we will be punished. and out of his mercy, he decided that all sins can be forgiven. EVERYTHING can be forgiven. everything except one single sin, if not followed with repentance. now as you can see, the God was setting the rules of how things are gonna be. he is playing fair. he doesn't cheat. he didn't hide some rules so he will come out with them in judgment day.
He stated that those who break the rules with no excuse have to take responsibility. when the God says "don't do this. if you do it, I won't forgive you." and then someone goes out of his way and does that same thing, then this is the highest level if arrogance and insolence.
remember, the world belongs to the God. heaven and hell and us included all belong to the God. he can do with us as he pleases. but he doesn't do ungodly things, so he is not gonna do us injustice. we can rest assured that we will never be punished for what we didn't do.
let's take an example:
touching electricity is a bad thing. why? because it may cause electricity shock and maybe death. we know this because we understand electricity and how it works. and this had been demonstrated in some accidents. but if you were to go 10 centuries ago and tell people "electricity is bad", they would not understand it. they may believe it or not. but questioning it based on their limited knowledge will not allow them to grasp it all.
disbelief is similar. the disbeliever is harming himself. he may not understand the consequences of his acts because he doesn't have knowledge of the God and the truth of his teachings.
we may like/dislike some of the teachings of the God. the question is not whether these judgments are to our liking. the real question is "is it fair and just?" you may say "it's unjust?" but based on what? if it's based on your own preferences, then it doesn't count. every person has preferences. therefore, everyone has a different opinion. the God doesn't rule by our different opinions. he rules with his own justice. so what someone has to do in order to understand this issue is to ask "what's the divine justice?"
I believe if you read about Justice in Islam and forgiveness and punishments in Islam, you will be able to understand many things regarding this issue. and in that time, you will be able to form a better opinion on the divine justice.
I let you know that all these questions and arguments you are bringing are answered in the Qur'an 1400 years ago. if you take the Qur'an and try to read it, you will find all answers to what may confuse you.
Peace
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
"then if you know that you will be punished for a certain sin, why don't you avoid it?"
If you know you will be punished for not worshiping Zeus, why don't you worship him?
"he informed us that this earthly life is a life of test."
God knows everything we're gonna do even before our parents are born, why does he need a test?
"but if you were to go 10 centuries ago and tell people "electricity is bad", they would not understand it. they may believe it or not. but questioning it based on their limited knowledge will not allow them to grasp it all."
Couldn't you bring an electrical generator back with you? Or demonstrate the properties of electricity through static shock?
"in the sight of the God, this sin is great."
So basically God goes, "Oh no, these people whom I created and have total power over don't believe in me. I still have total power over them regardless and their disbelief doesn't harm me or society, but I better send them to Hell because of this."
"he didn't hide some rules so he will come out with them in judgment day."
Yeah he did, look at every culture that developed its own religion. He gave the knowledge in the Quran to one guy in some remote desert leaving the other 99% of the planet in the dark.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
If you know you will be punished for not worshiping Zeus, why don't you worship him?
you returned to your invisible Pink Unicorn argument. when someone brings any claims about the God, they have to provide proofs. when you say "Zeus," we would like to ask "what's your proof?" "what's your source of information?" "can we test it?"...
and this returns us to the point we mentioned earlier:
a- you are right and there is no God.
b- I am right and my God is the true God.
c- we are both wrong and the true God is another God.
here, we need to study the concept of the God in different religions and see which one makes the most sense and more importantly which religion can back up its claim with proofs.
God knows everything we're gonna do even before our parents are born, why does he need a test?
the test is not for him. it's for us.
imagine that since the God knows all, he decided to throw me in hell for my evils. the God "I will throw you in Hell because you are gonna do evil anyway". I may complain "how do you throw me in hell and you didn't even give me a chance. this is unjust" the God would say "even if I give you a chance, you will do evil", I will say "no, if you gave me a chance, I will most certainly do good. you are punishing me for something I didn't do. this is unjust"
but if the God gave me chance, then indeed I did Evil, the God will say "I will put you in hell because you DID evil." here, I can't say "I didn't do it." because it's really what I did. and this is justice. punishing the wrong-doer for what they did and rewarding the good-doers for what they did.
so the test will stand as evidence for God's judgment to justify his decisions. it's evidence for what we did in this earthly life.
Couldn't you bring an electrical generator back with you? Or demonstrate the properties of electricity through static shock?
people will say 'OMG! he is a magician!" lol
So basically God goes, "Oh no, these people whom I created and have total power over don't believe in me. I still have total power over them regardless and their disbelief doesn't harm me or society, but I better send them to Hell because of this."
no. it's impossible to say "disbelief has no harm over society." in this world, we are either affected or we affect our environment. a disbelieving society will build a standard of life, a different morality, and a different law system that's different from what the God decreed. and this, in its turn, affects everyone. you, as a disbeliever will affect (and get affected by) your friends, family, neighbors, the people you get along with. and this will be reflected in your actions, motivations and intentions.
besides, with disbelief, people will choose to do things based on their own preferences. their actions may not be always right because people's wisdom and knowledge are limited. people will often end up harming each other and ruling with defective laws.
so as you can see, choosing disbelief is not like staying idle. in fact, it's choosing the opposite of truth, which is falsehood.
Yeah he did, look at every culture that developed its own religion. He gave the knowledge in the Quran to one guy in some remote desert leaving the other 99% of the planet in the dark.
that's not true. the guy he gave the knowledge was sent as the last messenger of the God. the message was there around. most of it was corrupted in the time of the prophet Mohammed -peace be upon him-. and the prophet sent messengers to deliver the message all around the world. and the message reached far lands and different countries. and in today's world, Islam is reaching more and more people because of technological advances. so everyone has the opportunity to learn it and see its truth. all someone needs is open mind and willingness to find the truth.
peace
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
"when someone brings any claims about the God, they have to provide proofs."
Ok, you give me proof.
"so the test will stand as evidence for God's judgment to justify his decisions."
You already said he doesn't base his laws on our opinion, why would he base his justice on it?
"it's impossible to say "disbelief has no harm over society.""
Remember those reports that show that there' more religious people than atheists in jail?
"people will often end up harming each other"
And disbelief leads to this how?
"the message was there around. most of it was corrupted in the time of the prophet Mohammed"
So much for God being perfect if he can't get his message out uncorrupted. Also, what about anyone who didn't live anywhere near Mohammed? What about the Native Americans or Aboriginal Australians?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Ok, you give me proof.
proof of what? of Islam? of the existence of the God? of the existence of Hell? we are talking about many things. you need to specify what you seek to know and I will do my best to answer.
You already said he doesn't base his laws on our opinion, why would he base his justice on it?
he doesn't base his justice on our opinion. he bases his justice on his law. but he bases his decisions on our actions.
Remember those reports that show that there' more religious people than atheists in jail?
maybe those who are making the law are atheists so they like to throw religious people in jails.
jokes aside. that's probably because there are more religious people in the world than there are atheists. if you want to really make an accurate survey, check the ratio of crimes committed by atheists within atheist community and the ratio of crimes committed by religious people within religious community.
"people will often end up harming each other"
And disbelief leads to this how?
as a disbeliever, you do things based on your own preferences and judgment, not on divine wisdom. when your preferences are bad (and you don't know), you end up harming yourself. for example, as a disbeliever, it's ok for you to drink Alcohol, to eat pork and to do any kind of immoral thing (believing it's moral) this will harm you by causing bad consequences in this world (depends on the action) and harms you by bringing you punishment in the hereafter.
So much for God being perfect if he can't get his message out uncorrupted.
no. it's not that the God couldn't get his message uncorrupted. whenever the message is corrupted by men, the God would send a new messenger. in Islam, we are told that the God sent 124 000 messengers and prophets to restore the message. Mohammed -peace be upon him- was simply the last one. after him, there was no more prophets and restorers of the message. and now is the big deal: the God is protecting it. and you can verify this by yourself: go buy 10 different Arabic Qur'ans printed in 10 different countries by 10 different publishing houses. check them, and tell me if you find a single letter difference between them. if you find a single verse different or a single chapter difference. today, we have the Qur'an in its language of revelation. the only scripture that's read in its original language. and the only scripture that's available in only one single version. you can check this if you want. it's not something that needs archeological knowledge or any high education level or scholarly expertise. anyone can do it even if he doesn't know Arabic. you can see the script and even hear the recitations of the Qur'an reciters and compare it and see if you can find a single difference.
and here, I am ready to make a challenge to you. if you can find and prove that at we have at least 2 different Arabic Qur'ans in the world, I will admit that it was not preserved and therefore, it can't be God's word.
Also, what about anyone who didn't live anywhere near Mohammed? What about the Native Americans or Aboriginal Australians?
that's a good question. and it remained in my mind since I was very young. but I could find an answer.
first, know that Islam was not founded by Mohammed -peace be upon him-. all the prophets of the God preached it. and since there were prophets sent to all nations. there were some sent to the Americas and Australia. there were Muslims there even before Mohammed. of course, they were persecuted just like they were in other parts of the world. and later, after the coming of Mohammed -peace and blessings be upon him-, the new generation of Muslims started spreading in the world to restore Islam again. later, they reached even the Americas and Australia. Islam was not strange from the native American tribes. of course not all of them were Muslims, but among them were some Muslims.
Westerners and non-Muslims don't want to admit that Muslims arrived to America before Columbus, but that's something we can check and verify with a little hard work. I recommend a book called "Saga America", if you are interested to read more about this issue.
Peace be to you
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
Another question. As a Muslim you have to believe what is in Koran because that's your faith to God and everything right. But how would you know there was not another prophet, that was just not accepted? Just like the concept can be warped by man, so can be the prophet. Maybe he was sent, but because people wanted to believe in their religion, perhaps the prophet wasn;t accepted. No one believed him. Maybe people just though he was a random man trying to convert people into his made up stuff? You never know I could be a prophet, your wife could be one. Anyone could be for all you know. but they would be shunned by words such as 'do not doubt it's all in the Koran/Bible. God sent no other prophets'.
If you get what I mean...
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
"but he bases his decisions on our actions."
So why does he create people that he knows will end up in Hell? God knows what will happen to anyone he creates, knows exactly what that person will do, so why bother creating them? His own limitless knowledge has rendered him powerless to change things without interfering directly with humanity.
"as a disbeliever, it's ok for you to drink Alcohol, to eat pork and to do any kind of immoral thing"
Pork and alcohol, two other great sins. Everyone knows those pork-eating alcohol drinking people are nothing but trouble! Except they're not because those aren't bad actions.
"of course not all of them were Muslims, but among them were some Muslims.
Westerners and non-Muslims don't want to admit that Muslims arrived to America before Columbus, but that's something we can check and verify with a little hard work."
[Citation needed] on all that. Seriously.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
So why does he create people that he knows will end up in Hell? God knows what will happen to anyone he creates, knows exactly what that person will do, so why bother creating them? His own limitless knowledge has rendered him powerless to change things without interfering directly with humanity.
no. you are mixing things.
first, I already told you, the God does what pleases him. we are in no position to question him and ask him why he did this or why he did that. he questions us. we may try to understand the wisdom behind his actions. but our limited knowledge and wisdom doesn't always allow us to fully understand the divine decisions.
one of the attributes of the God is that he is the "Creator." he creates things. now why he creates this or that, this is something he only knows. besides, he didn't create man to go to Hell. he created man for heaven. it's man, by disobeying the God, who will go to hell by his evil actions. going to Hell is part of the justice of the God. since the God gave us freedom. he holds us responsible for our actions. and this is justice. you for example, the God didn't decide for you to go to hell. you can decide that by your own decisions. the God created you for heaven. he gives you signs about Islam from time to time. he even brought you to my page and made you question things so that you hear the truth. he put curiosity in your mind. this curiosity will push you to look for the answers. I know a lot of people who kill that curiosity and don't bother to ask and look for answers to their questions. but throughout man's life, the God gives him many many chances and opportunities to find the truth.
now we need to make difference between someone who ignorantly couldn't find the truth, and someone who just rejected the truth because he feels it doesn't suit him. the God will deal differently with both of them.
Everyone knows those pork-eating alcohol drinking people are nothing but trouble! Except they're not because those aren't bad actions.
That's your own opinion. based on your own preferences and knowledge. but the God will only judge based on his law. so since he said Drinking Alcohol and eating Pork are sins, he will count them as sins.
[Citation needed] on all that. Seriously.
I gave you a book name. read it.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
"he holds us responsible for our actions."
But he knows everything we're going to do before we do it, so he'd know if someone would end up in Hell or not.
"he holds us responsible for our actions."
God knows everything and thus would know the outcome of sending me those signs would be.
"God gave us freedom"
If God knows everything including what we're going to do before we do it then we have no freedom. We think we have freedom but everything we do has already been foreseen by God. Since God is the ultimate truth it is impossible for him to be wrong and he can see whether we end up in heaven or hell which begs the question of why he would create someone if he saw that they would end up in Hell? If God saw that the man would end up in Hell that means the man will end up there no matter what happens to him. Thus God will create this man with the full knowledge that nothing will save him from Hell, the man will live his life with his destiny predetermined by God. Since it has been foreseen that he will end up in Hell the man has no ability to change this and thus lacks free will.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
But he knows everything we're going to do before we do it, so he'd know if someone would end up in Hell or not.
he knows. but he doesn't decide for us. he gave us the choice.
God knows everything and thus would know the outcome of sending me those signs would be.
Again, he knows. but he doesn't decide for you. it's like he has a time machine. he can go to the future and see what you have done in the past.
If God knows everything including what we're going to do before we do it then we have no freedom.
if I can go 10 years to the future and see what you will be. and then return here and continue chatting with you knowing what you are gonna do, does this mean you have no freedom? come on, that makes no sense.
We think we have freedom but everything we do has already been foreseen by God.
foreseen is one thing, and decided is another.
Since God is the ultimate truth it is impossible for him to be wrong and he can see whether we end up in heaven or hell which begs the question of why he would create someone if he saw that they would end up in Hell?
Alright, let's see things from a different angle: the God had a plan. and he created the universe and made everything works according to his plan. in his plan, he created mankind with a free will and responsibility. he didn't decide what people are gonna do. he just knows it because he knows everything.
now every single creature of the God has a task in this plan. I read somewhere that a mosquito killed Alexander the Macedonian. that small mosquito had a task and that task, if not accomplished, would probably change the history of the whole world.
now every single human, good-doer or wrong-doer, is doing a task. not forced to. but doing it out of his own will. these actions fit in God's plan. the God doesn't allow things to go beyond his plan. for example, if you were planning to kill a person called Jim. and this Jim was destined to have a child who will discover a cure for a serious disease, then your plan to kill Jim will fail. this doesn't mean you have no freedom. you have freedom, and you exercise it. but your freedom is limited by two things: your abilities and fate.
you can decide your choices. but you can't do whatever you want. for example, you can't fly with your body alone because this freedom is limited by your body abilities. you can't kill Jim because this freedom is limited by fate (which was against the death of Jim in that moment)
things are a little complicated. someone can't grasp all of it without an idea of the divine plan and how things work. and even when we know of this, we are still far from understanding the whole divine plan. all we know is what the God allowed us to know. and he allowed us to know what's enough for us to understand and choose what to do to go to Heaven or Hell.
If God saw that the man would end up in Hell that means the man will end up there no matter what happens to him.
if a man would end up in Hell, this means he didn't choose what allows him to end up in heaven. man can choose his destiny based on his deeds. you are making it sound as if circumstances choose for you. which is not true. of course there is something called fate and destiny. but it's less than 50% of your life. the rest is your own choice.
Thus God will create this man with the full knowledge that nothing will save him from Hell, the man will live his life with his destiny predetermined by God.
no. believing in the God will save man from Hell.
God's mercy will save man from Hell.
all man has to do is to seek it and humble himself and follow the commandment. like this, you also can go to heaven, in sha'Allah [God willing]
Since it has been foreseen that he will end up in Hell the man has no ability to change this and thus lacks free will.
no. you are trying to remove the 'blame' of disobeying the God from yourself and putting it on the God. it's like saying "I disobeyed the God and will go to hell because he decided so." this is merely an excuse to disobey the God.
for example, right now, Omegawarmech, you can choose. you are not feeling that someone is deciding for you. you are not feeling that the God is making you say what you are saying. that's because the God gave you total freedom of your actions and thoughts. he allows you to think and decide what to say, decide whether you want to go shopping or go sightseeing. decide which book you want to read, which deviant account you want to visit, which artwork you want to fave... he knows what you gonna do, but he didn't make you do it.
similarly, he knows your destiny, but he didn't force it on you.
now you may ask "if the God knows I am going to hell, why won't he save me?"
how do you want him to save you? by breaking his laws and commandments? he stated that if you believe in him, you get saved. if you seek his mercy, you will get it. now ask yourself "what prevents you to seek him and his mercy? what prevents you from obeying him and believing in him?"
the God is giving you countless opportunities to find him and be saved. it's up to you to accept them or reject them.
the fact that you hear there is a book claiming to be God's word is a great opportunity that should push your curiosity to have a look at the book before you decide "there is no god"
you may say "but there are many religious books that claim they are God's word"
exactly, that's why you have to do a search. imagine you take 10 religious books and spend 2 years to read them. do you think that after reading them you will remain like you are now? even if you don't see truth in most of them, your way of thinking, your understanding of things will change. so in the end, you are gonna benefit from your quest for seeking the truth.
Peace be to you.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Can't you see the inconsistencies in having both a divine plan and complete freedom? Let's put it this way, God sees that a man is going to put a ladder in a not so safe position and it falls while he's on it. Technically the man had the freedom to put the ladder wherever he wanted but because God knows that the man will put the ladder in one specific spot the man will always put that ladder in that one specific spot and thus has no free will. If he didn't that means God was wrong and isn't omnipotent. God didn't directly force him to put the ladder there but instead God's own omnipotence made it so that putting the ladder there was the only possibility.
"by breaking his laws and commandments?"
Hold the phone, you mean that there's things God can't do? Who put those rules in place? It has to be something greater than God doesn't it?
"but your freedom is limited by two things"
If your freedom is limited then you don't have free will.
"your abilities and fate."
What if it's my fate that I go to Hell? Whoops, looks like I'm doomed because fate trumps free will.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Can't you see the inconsistencies in having both a divine plan and complete freedom?
there are no consistencies. there is nothing wrong if what we decide to do fits with what the God planned. but since you brought the example of the ladder, let me use it to explain my point.
let's suppose that the man takes the ladder in order to put it and climb on it. God's plan is that the ladder will be put in spot A.
the man has the ladder in his hand, he could put it in spots A, B or C. the man decides to put it in B, but then, he changes his mind and gets another idea. and puts it in A. here, the man chose where to put the ladder. he was not forced. he could be inspired by the God. and that choice matched the plan of the God.
I give you another example. and this is a real story:
there was an Egyptian teacher who got a good job in Bahrain. and he had to leave Egypt by plane. but in the airport, because of a certain problem in his passport, he was not allowed to board. and that was the last plane before the deadline. he felt sad and felt that was the worst day of his life. later that day, he heard news that the airplane crushed and all people in it died (it was flight GF072).
now this guy planned something. and things happened against what he planned. but he didn't board in that airplane because his fate was not to die in the accident.
of course there are things we can not decide, such as where we will die and when. whether we will have children or not. whether we will have a baby boy or girl. but to choose our actions and faith are decided by us. belief is something we alone can decide. of course guidance comes from the God. but it's us who can accept it or reject it.
Hold the phone, you mean that there's things God can't do? Who put those rules in place? It has to be something greater than God doesn't it?
no my friend. you are getting it wrong. it's the God who puts the rules in place. but he doesn't break them because it would make him ungodly. for example, he decreed that he only rules with justice. whoever does good receives reward, whoever does evil will get punishment. now if the God breaks this rule, he would be unjust, and therefore ungodly. this doesn't mean it's not him who made the rules. it simply means he doesn't change the godly way he rules with.
If your freedom is limited then you don't have free will.
no. there is a difference between freedom and free will.
'free will' means you can choose whatever you want. it's true. we can decide what we want to do. but deciding doesn't always mean achieving.
'freedom' means you can literally do whatever you want. of course if I want to fly to the sun I can't do it. if I want to stop my breathing for 30 minutes, I can't do it. this is because my freedom is limited by my physical capacities. this doesn't mean I don't have free will. I can choose what I want to do. but I can not do all that I choose to do.
What if it's my fate that I go to Hell? Whoops, looks like I'm doomed because fate trumps free will.
no. what determines your destiny is your choice. not fate. let me make it easy for you:
let's say your fate represents 30% and your choice represents 70%. your fate will guide some of the events in your life. while your choice will determine your destination.
I give you examples:
- you wanted to go to Cambridge University to study. this is a choice.
- you applied for papers, bought plane ticket and all. this is a choice.
- when you wanted to go, you found a girl attacked by some bandits and you went to help her. this is your choice.
- after going to the airport you found that you missed your flight. this is fate.
- you decided to follow alternative plans. this is your choice...
and so on.
things are mixed together. between divine plan and our choice. but what determines where we will go in the hereafter is not the divine plan, but our own decisions.
another example. I can say "I invite you to Islam."
now you can accept or refuse. it's your choice.
I may tell you "beware, disbelief may lead you to the Hellfire."
knowing this, you still can make your own choice and refuse.
I can tell you "ok, even if you don't believe now. how about you search more?"
you can search or remain like you are. this is also your choice. you have control on matters of faith...
there may be things regarding the divine plan that you may not fully understand. things that even me, I may not fully understand. that's normal. because we are humans with limited knowledge and limited understanding. but not fully understanding the divine plan doesn't mean we are following it blindly. and doesn't mean we should reject it simply because we don't understand it all.
I explain:
for example, if you ask me to prove the existence of Hell and Paradise to you. I can't do that directly. but I can do it in another manner.
remember when you talked about the Invisible Pink Unicorn, I told you I believe something if:
a- I can check it and prove its truth.
b- I can check the source of information and prove its truth.
there are many things we can't test them and prove them because we have limited abilities. but we can check their source of information.
our source of information regarding these matters is the Qur'an (which claims to be the word of the God) what we have to do is test the book, and see if it's what it claims to be. if the book is proven to be true and of divine source, then what it claims regarding Paradise and Hell could be taken to be true.
same goes with the splitting of the sea miracle that happened in the time of prophet Moses -peace be upon him-, the splitting of the Moon in the time of prophet Mohammed -peace be upon him- and many events that happened long ago and we didn't witness...
Peace be to you.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
"God's plan is that the ladder will be put in spot A.
the man has the ladder in his hand, he could put it in spots A, B or C. the man decides to put it in B, but then, he changes his mind and gets another idea. and puts it in A. here, the man chose where to put the ladder."
Not really because God would have also foreseen that the man would have placed it in spot B before putting it in A. It's called predetermination and it prevents free will. Think of a train, it's free to go anywhere as long as it's on the track. The train's paths have been predetermined.
"what determines where we will go in the hereafter is not the divine plan, but our own decisions."
But if God sees that someone is going to Hell that person is going to go to Hell because God saw that he would. God knows every choice that person will make and the consequences of those choices but doing that locks the person into those choices. If the person makes any other choice that would mean that God was wrong and isn't omnipotent. If God foresees that you're going to take exactly 568 steps to get from your destination when you leave your house at a precise time like 1:30 pm, then you lose your free will as the choices you make along the way weren't really yours to make. They were predetermined.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Sorry if I sound serious, it's just that, there's no evidence to say that Hell will be temporary for us. : ) But Mashaallah of course you're doing your best for the sake of Allah.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Wait you can't say, in the end of the paragraph,
Surah Al-Baqarah verse 280-282
"And they say, "Never will the Fire touch us, except for a few days." Say, "Have you taken a covenant with Allah ? For Allah will never break His covenant. Or do you say about Allah that which you do not know? (280)
Yes, whoever earns evil and his sin has encompassed him - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally. (281)
But they who believe and do righteous deeds - those are the companions of Paradise; they will abide therein eternally.(282)
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
You didn't read when I said this:Well, I think that depends on the sins. there are sins that may be cleansed and there are sins that may not. according to my understanding, there may be people who will stay there for eternity. and if that's the case, then that will certainly be their fair punishment.
God knows best.
Jazaakum Allaahu khayran, anyway.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Sorry. :S
Thanks for the information. ^^
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
So, the muslim hell is kind of like the chatolic purgatory? You're not there for eternity but only to cleanse away the sins you comitted in life so that you may finally enter heaven. Did I understand that correctly?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Well, I think that depends on the sins. there are sins that may be cleansed and there are sins that may not. according to my understanding, there may be people who will stay there for eternity. and if that's the case, then that will certainly be their fair punishment.
God knows best. but it's better to work and strive in this earthly life not to get there in the first place.
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
seems fair. I actually like that arrangement more than the canon of lutheranism where you either go to heaven or hell definatly but god have allready decided who goes where and nothing you do in your life is going to change that, you WILL act in a way that deserves you where god intended you to go.
Thou, I think the Swedish lutherans have dislodged this belief and is more on the same line as you guys are. I mean, that's what a good god would do, right?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
... but god have allready decided who goes where and nothing you do in your life is going to change that, you WILL act in a way that deserves you where god intended you to go.
Well, if the God decided for me to go to hell. in judgment day, I could simply say "I sinned because you made me sin" and that would be true. if the God made someone sin in order to go to hell, he can't be just and fair by punishing them for what he decided.
In Islam, we believe your faith and actions are what makes you go to Hell or Heavens. the God didn't decide for us, he merely gave us free will.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
yes, that is a point that makes a lot more sense how you people put it. I guess this defaitism is what makes so many lutherans prone to depression. I mean what is the point of it if everything is allready decided for you and you cannot master your own life?
But appearently the swdish lutheran curch have abandoned this view. Good riddance if you ask me.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Like syirik, that cannot be cleansed, right? Because he/she is using evil worshiping things in his life.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
I think another aspect to look at this issue is: the gift of Allah(c.c.), the gift of Life and Existence and all the things that are accompanying it is an eternal gift in itself to humankind (, a small example: just think about the tree's all over the world, cleaning the air and producing fresh air non-stop, which mankind benefits from it on daily basis), refusing Allah c.c. requires a punishment of the same proportions, thus an eternal hell, as with refusing you are refusing everything that Allah c.c. has given to humankind.
One of Allah's name is Ya Hayy, He who gives life and the true owner of life and Ya Kayyum, He without his permission nothing can move or act(the translations are a little vague, so if there is a mistake it's from me only). Therefore, even moving our fingers, using the eye's neural sensor to see is only possible, because Allah (c.c.) is making it possible, in every breath we depend on the air he has created and provided for humankind etc. and so on. Therefore if we ask for murder a sentencing for life, because a life is forcibly ended by another person, thus ending a world of emotions, of love, of bonds etc., we try to punish the convict in the same proportions as the deed he has comitted, according the motto if you take a life, your life shall be taken, too, with death sentencing or imprisonment for life. If you refuse the unending gifts of Allah c.c., you ask for an "unending" punishment, thus eternal hell.
Allah c.c. is al-Adl, he who is just. Eternal hell is for those who are in kufr, who refuse Allah c.c., thus for those who comit an eternal crime, and an eternal crime asks for an eternal punishment: therefore there is an eternal hell.
Those who die believing in God, will rest in hell for some time and with Allah's permission enter heaven. But, some time could be millions of years, or 20 years, or 200 years.
In context, you could also ask why there is an eternal heaven. But that would be going off-topic. No human being can grasp and accept the thought of non-existence, even those who all their life say so; watch them in their last seconds before death and see the fear in their eyes. Earth is not a place for play and life is truly short.
Allahu Allam. If I'm mistaken, truly it is my mistake. If I'm right, it is from Allah c.c.
👍: 0 ⏩: 0
Well, for definition of why Hell is there in the first place is because it is the place where punishment in the afterlife takes place. For us Muslims, those who have done much bad in their life and are non-believers end up in an eternal Hell. Also, the Satan, or Shaytan, will be thrown in as well, for guiding those non-believers towards the wrong path. That's how it is in Islam...
If I didn't answer your questions, then I apologize...^^
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
What is the point of post-death punishment?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Because in Islam, life is not the place for ultimate reward or punishment. Life is seen as a test, and we are free do spend it however we like. We are dealt with accordingly in the afterlife, based on how we spent our lives. According to our beliefs, the punishment that occurs after death is a result of the person's actions before death. That is the point of post-death punishment.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Ok, why does this punishment need to last forever?
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
It doesn't. We don't believe that punishement in hell is eternal. Even when a person is sentenced to "burn in hell forever", God may overrule any sentence (according to the Hadith: "He who has a mote of faith in his heart will not remain in Hell eternally but will be taken out.") It is believed that all people are given the chance to redeem themselves even in hell, and that any person may be saved from it if they repent.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
Surat Al-'Ahzab 33:64-68
"Indeed, Allah has cursed the disbelievers and prepared for them a Blaze.
Abiding therein forever, they will not find a protector or a helper.
And they will say, "Our Lord, indeed we obeyed our masters and our dignitaries, and they led us astray from the [right] way.
Our Lord, give them double the punishment and curse them with a great curse.""
That seems to say otherwise.
👍: 0 ⏩: 2
I actually find it strange to discover that there are Muslims that believe that there is eternal hell for unbelievers, since I have always been taught otherwise. Since I was a child, I had been taught that there is salvation for all, even those that reside within hell, if they repent and beg forgiveness. I've been told that there is only one exception for this rule, which is Satan himself (who will be sentenced to true eternity in hell, regardless of whether he asks for forgiveness.) I believe that "Most Gracious, Most Merciful" are the two most important qualities of God.
In regards to the verses you mentioned, I think you should take a look a few verses before.
Surat Al-'Ahzab 33:60
"If the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is disease and those who spread rumors in al-Madinah do not cease, We will surely incite you against them; then they will not remain your neighbors therein except a little."
It seems as though the following verses that you quoted are specifically directed towards "the hypocrites and those in whose hearts is disease and those who spread rumors" in Madinah at the time. To fully understand this, we must look at how the situation in Madinah was at the time this verse was revealed. Islam was only beginning to grow, and there were many in Madinah who still opposed it. Some were determined to eliminate the religion altogether. It was people that refused to believe in the one God, and not just that, but made life exceedingly difficult for those that did. In that case, the "eternal hell" serves as a warning to these specific people.
I doubt that "forever" is meant to be taken literally, rather, it is meant to instill the idea that the pain and torment of Hell is of such intensity that it will seem as if it lasts forever. In fact, if you look at it closely, it is can be found that the punishment is finite. "Our Lord, indeed we obeyed our masters and our dignitaries, and they led us astray from the [right] way. Our Lord, give them double the punishment and curse them with a great curse." It says double the punishment, meaning that they want their leaders to have a sentence twice as long as theirs. Which suggests that the punishment of hell is meant to last a set amount of time.
And I'd like to quote this Hadith again: "He who has a mote of faith in his heart will not remain in Hell eternally but will be taken out." This states that those who are sentenced to eternity in hell will be taken out if they repent and wish that they had been of faith, and sincerely beg for forgiveness.
That is what I believe.
And if I am right, it's from the God. if I am wrong, it's from myself.
👍: 0 ⏩: 1
| Next =>