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Vtoony In reply to ??? [2019-09-17 19:52:35 +0000 UTC]

To be honest, the scene where Mufasa's ghost appeared before everyone at night really irritated me. I mean aside from the point you made, where was that guy when his granddaughter was running away? Wasn't there a deleted scene in the second film where that happened. Seriously, I don't care much for Mufasa appearing on special or dramatic occasions, but the way the Lion Guard turned him into a supernatural Skype session with Kion bugs me a lot.

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Panther85 In reply to Wolf-Chalk [2019-09-18 18:38:55 +0000 UTC]

Lol I know XD at least at the end of that episode they didn’t have her talk to her grandma and instead took a more subtle approach by only having the moon light shine above Rani. Had she actually appeared in the sky it would have killed the emotion of the episode.

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Wolf-Chalk In reply to Panther85 [2019-09-18 23:11:57 +0000 UTC]

I still think it's one thing to establish it for Kion and another thing entirely to establish this for Rani and then try to pull an emotional death scene bc like I didn't feel anything for Janna bc of the fact Rani spoke to her dead parents like it was a long distance call from college lel 

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KuroNeko369 In reply to ??? [2019-09-17 17:23:37 +0000 UTC]

I totally called it! I felt the same for the whole series!

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ienzo628 In reply to Cusackanne [2019-09-17 17:31:54 +0000 UTC]

Don't feel bad, he wasn't there for Kiara either!

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Cusackanne In reply to ienzo628 [2019-09-18 00:04:33 +0000 UTC]

...Yeah, good point. Mufasa just seems too selective of whom he's gonna help out.

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ienzo628 In reply to Cusackanne [2019-09-19 06:27:29 +0000 UTC]

I wonder if he got it from his dad.

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BullerThePirate In reply to ??? [2019-09-17 15:31:14 +0000 UTC]

I hated it in TLG

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Capricornfox In reply to ??? [2019-09-17 14:01:43 +0000 UTC]

lol

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Adventure-14 In reply to ??? [2019-09-17 13:20:06 +0000 UTC]

I totally agree with you, poor Simba...

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NostalgicChills In reply to Lesh4537 [2019-09-17 12:24:13 +0000 UTC]

And yet Mufasa didn't come to Simba when he was younger and in MUCH need of guidance. I understand the point, but there are still holes in it. The Lion Guard made this concept quite confusing by making it literal, rather than spiritual/metaphorical. 

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Lesh4537 In reply to NostalgicChills [2019-09-17 12:47:12 +0000 UTC]

Was Simba really in need of help though? He had a large, if rather eclectic, support system - a warthog and a meerkat; then later in life he had Nala and the other lionness, a hornbill, and a crazy, old mandrill. Daddy dearest showed up when Simba really needed him to. The rest of the time he had help from the living, or already knew what he needed to do but didn't like it.

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NostalgicChills In reply to Lesh4537 [2019-09-17 13:03:12 +0000 UTC]

Was Kion really in need of help though? He had a large support system too, including a father that was still alive - that's already more than Simba had at Kion's age. Simba was still insecure as King, and facing a problem that was putting his whole family and kingdom at risk. A little advice would have been extremely helpful. Kion was a leader of a guard, a heavy responsibility perhaps; but Simba is the ruler of an entire empire. And he was inexperienced and untrained, he had no time. I think Simba's problems had priorities over Kion's! 

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Lesh4537 In reply to NostalgicChills [2019-09-17 14:17:56 +0000 UTC]

If Kion really did need help, why frequently seek out his dead grandfather? If it's ancient wisdom he seeks, where is Sarabi or Sarafina? How wise are you really if you died from the betrayal of a brother everyone else saw as bad? Simba did have guidance and training as a cub from Mufasa - and learned what not to do from Scar. Perhaps his training was cut short as a cub, but there were many around him to resume training as an adult. He had the help of Zazu and Rafiki - both of whom having a lot of knowledge and experience ruling a kingdom. What about the queen regent, Sarabi? Speaking of queens, does not Nala rule along side Simbe as his wife and queen? Simba had a lot time - he knew who and what he was but denied it. Even if much of his education had to happen as an adult; there's always time to learn. Still, Simba had a lot of help and advise, but since it didn't come from daddy apparently it doesn't count. What Simba really lacks is confidence - not only in himself but others around him. He didn't trust Kiara and set various friends to babysit her even into adulthood. He distrusted good advise from experienced advisers mostly because their guidance didn't feel right. I don't think it's a matter of priority but of utilizing available resources and acknowledging personal strengths and weaknesses, not only in yourself but others as well. Simba may be an emotional wreck, but Nala is not. Nor are any other of the characters whom Simba should rely on.

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NostalgicChills In reply to Lesh4537 [2019-09-18 00:26:28 +0000 UTC]

Dunno. But it's not ancient wisdom he seeks, if you watch when Kion does call for him; it's for a pep-talk or a shallow reason like: "I jumped to conclusions about this character." To which point Mufasa would spout wisdom from Rafiki, a platitude that Kion was already told...from Rafiki. Mufasa actually isn't THAT helpful in TLG. 

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pikapat321 In reply to Lesh4537 [2019-09-17 14:46:26 +0000 UTC]

IMO, Simba as a cub needed far more help than Kion ever did, Simba was for one afraid to ever return to the pridelands, was horrified by Mufasa's death and on top of it all as a child he blamed himself. If Mufasa could even just appear before Simba at any time, as a cub just to say "Its not your fault, I still love you" would have been all he needed. Most of Kions issues could have been solved by going to Rafiki or Simba and asking for advice.

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Lesh4537 In reply to pikapat321 [2019-09-17 15:38:44 +0000 UTC]

But it was Simba's fault that Mufasa died. He wasn't where he was suppose to be. He trusted someone who should never have been trusted. Simba did play an important part in his own father's death. We, the viewers, don't blame him because we saw what happened. Even if Simba hadn't run away, no one would have ever known he was tricked by Scar. The adults would have forgiven Simba for his involvement and chalked it up to an accident. It was important to the progress of the story even it was messed up for a child to deal with. Even so, he choose to suppress and internalize everything instead of seeking help. As a cub, Simba choose to ignore his heritage and go against everything his father taught him by following the fuck-it-all attitude of a warthog and meerkat. Never once did he ask for guidance from anyone until Rafiki found him as an adult. Even then, neither ghost-Mufasa or Rafiki bothered to tell Simba how his father really died or help him come to terms with the tragedy, nor should they. He needed to hear the truth from Scar to help fuel Simba's efforts to overthrow him and take back the pridelands. Besides, that's what they call character building moments - learning to overcome adversities and develop important life skills and stuff. The "Its not your fault, I still love you" would never have been all he needed - there's no motivation to return home in that line. 

It's just seriously lazy writing for Kion to call his departed grandpa for everything. So many more interesting characters were already in the Lion King universe or already available to the budding prince. 

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NostalgicChills In reply to Lesh4537 [2019-09-18 00:12:44 +0000 UTC]

"But it was Simba's fault that Mufasa died." That's where you lost me. He was a child. A traumatized, trusting and naive child. An adult can recognize not to trust Scar, but he was manipulated into believing his 'sweet' Uncle. Plus, he still could have been trampled sitting on that rock, so even if he stayed put; he still could have been killed. Kids always trust people they shouldn't, that's how some get murdered and molested, it's not the kid's fault though. Way to victim blame a little, dude!
You're judging Simba from an adult's perspective, but children don't think logically like this. Scar told him that his pride would be horrified and blame him, and told him to run away, Simba at that point; in his emotional state, saw no reason not to believe him - it's his uncle. Then the Hyenas made sure he was too scared for his life to go back. The guilt guided his decisions from thereafter. He seemed pretty willing to die afterwards in the desert, until Timon and Pumbaa came along and influenced him to change his lifestyle. Children nearly always listen to the adults around them, even if they shouldn't. Simba was a victim of circumstance given his young age. 
Rafiki wouldn't have known about the murder, he wasn't there. Mufasa as a ghost was Simba looking inside and remembering his true self, one could argue it wasn't literally Mufasa's spirit, but a spiritual journey instead (as far as the original movie's logic goes anyway). Given this, Mufasa wouldn't have known anything Simba didn't.

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Lesh4537 In reply to NostalgicChills [2019-09-18 01:54:30 +0000 UTC]

I'm not blaming the victim; I'm acknowledging that he had some involvement in the ultimate fate of his own father. I'm not saying it was completely, totally his fault and he is all to blame. But he was there. He wasn't kidnapped or forced to be there - he choose to go. It's impossible to know whether or not Simba knew not to trust Scar. We only see tidbits of their interactions that Disney animated in a movie. Of course I am judging Simba from an adult's perspective; I am an adult. Simba is a fictional character written by adults and based off of other adult-created works of fiction. You are projecting thoughts and emotions onto a lion; even worse, a cartoon lion at that. The characters act as they do, not because that is what real people would feel or do in those situations, but because that is what the adult writers have decided will happen to create a cute, animated movie.

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NostalgicChills In reply to Lesh4537 [2019-09-18 02:39:07 +0000 UTC]

You literally said it was Simba's FAULT that Mufasa died, the very first sentence in your last comment. Then you back-pedalled slightly straight after. 

Simba was coerced to go to the gorge under false pretenses, Scar told him his father wanted him there, so there he went and stayed as he was told; waiting for his dad. He trusted the thought of his dad wanting him there, more than Scar. Again, Scar showed no sign of aggression or dangerous resentment towards Simba to his face, as far as the film showed; Simba had no reason to not trust him. There was no scene or sign of Mufasa warning Simba about Scar, Simba was completely oblivious and easily manipulated because he was a child. Many children get coerced into getting in stranger's cars simply by being told that their parent wanted them to. Scar is family, so the danger seemed non-existent to Simba. 
You judging Simba's child decisions in the perspective of an adult is flawed, it's as helpful as giving advice based on hindsight. Even blind people have hindsight. Simba was a child, children can't make logical decisions to the same degree as adults can, you're still victim blaming Simba for the shit that the adults around him; put him through. I can guarantee you were just as gullible and trusting as a child, until you were older and/or given a reason not to. 

"You are projecting thoughts and emotions onto a lion; even worse, a cartoon lion at that." you mean the emotions and actions they literally and objectively put on a anthropomorphized character's face and body language? The characters in TLK, despite being animals and animated; display HUMAN emotions and understanding of the world around them. Being able to feel for an emotional character that's going through a difficult human experience is not wrong, it's called empathy. 

"The characters act as they do, not because that is what real people would feel or do in those situations, but because that is what the adult writers have decided will happen to create a cute, animated movie." You know that research is done when creating characters in movies, right? The writers would need some understanding of child psychology in order to write a believable child character. Hence why said characters don't make adult decisions or talk like adults. If they did, there would be no reason for Simba to grow at all.

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Lesh4537 In reply to NostalgicChills [2019-09-18 15:08:45 +0000 UTC]

I am not back peddling; I'm clarifying. You fail to acknowledge the importance of choice. Everyone is responsible for the choices they make; whether well-informed or not, good or bad. It doesn't make anyone less of a victim, nor are they responsible for the actions of others; even if, through a series their own of choices, somethings bad happens. You seem to be equating the acknowledgement of someone's involvement in a situation with blaming them for the results. Advising on hindsight is a variation of learning from the past. There was even a lesson about hindsight in the movie; I guess you missed it or it wasn't helpful enough. 

Children are far more intelligent and have greater capability of logical thought then you give them credit for. You're argument presents children, and Simba, as though they are dumb, void of rational thought, unaware, without independent thinking, oblivious to all and just floating through life at the whims of others until some magical moment of self awareness. What poor, helpless creatures children must be - and how blissfully easy parenting therefore is. 

Yes, the characters are animated in a way as to illicit an emotional response from the view. Fictional characters don't feel or experience anything; the audience does. While a character may display emotions appropriate for the situation they are expressing, it is solely for the benefit of the audience. A writer wants to you become emotionally invested in their character; that's part of telling a good story. Even non-fictional works are occasionally embellished or dramatized to tell a better story or invoke a stronger emotional reaction. Feeling sad for a character, even cry for them, is perfectly fine. But to equate a fictional character's imagined suffering with that of a real person diminishes true suffering and trauma. I have empathy for real people and animals. I still enjoy movies, book and whatnot but to do not mistake them with real life.

By research you mean they read Hamlet? Not much research when the story line was written almost three hundred years ago. Oh, but it wouldn't be a very good animated film if everyone dies in the end - well then, just the antagonist; maybe. Simba's character doesn't necessarily follow with real child behavior. Children, and adults, react very unexpectedly to trauma; such as experiencing denial, panic, or even become immobilized while in a traumatic situation. Real, human children may even enter a catatonic state as their mind tries to minimize the impact of the trauma. Even adults may not think to run away despite being faced with certain danger or at the suggestion of someone else. Simba's character choose to run away because that was how the writers choose to remove him from the situation and to progress a story adapted from a play. The writers created a character that mimics perceived human behavior in order to tell a cute story; it may have similarities to real life but the parallels are weak at best. 

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NostalgicChills In reply to Lesh4537 [2019-09-19 02:46:27 +0000 UTC]

Walls of texts are getting bigger, not really in the mood for this honestly - I'll retract saying that you were victim blaming. I know I initiated this derailed conversation, but I don't want us to end up sending novels to each other back and forth for eternity. This is a joke comic, my dude. Think what you want about it, but I'm putting my hands up and walking away from this one. 

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Lesh4537 In reply to NostalgicChills [2019-09-21 23:06:51 +0000 UTC]

Respectfully understood. I do find your comic funny. Clearly the "it's Simba's fault" blanket statement on fanart of the movie/tv show was a poor choice.

I view life from a different perspective. I have been a victim. And I personally know several kids who have suffered through real trauma. Even a couple of kids who have watched their dad die - not from an uncle with questionable motives while hanging off of a cliff, but a drug overdoes. It's hard for me to over analyze cute movies and make correlations with real life when I'm too well aware of how messy life can really be. I guess I consume media and entertainment a lot differently. 

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Lesh4537 In reply to Lesh4537 [2019-09-24 14:42:49 +0000 UTC]

Ah, true. It was a mistake to utilize excessive sarcasm in my counter argument with the intent to highlight any misconceptions. It was naive of me to believe that my real life experiences as a parent, and an early childhood educator with colleague who have literal decades of combined study and experience - some of who even bother to get doctorates; including my sister who has her doctrine in sociology - can compare to your expertise. I apologize if my comments come across as condescending or insulting - it is rather embarrassing to be so soundly schooled as I have been here.   

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NostalgicChills In reply to Lesh4537 [2019-09-22 00:59:26 +0000 UTC]

I understand. I'm also aware of how harsh life can be, but I can still consume media differently to you. 

It also probably wasn't the best choice to put meanings to my words and intentions, like assuming that I missed or 'failed to' grasp certain concepts, or that I was calling children stupid - I said naive, and that they don't generally think as logically as adults do, that doesn't imply stupidity; just lack of experience for most of them. It was that kind of demeanor that also drove my decision to opt out, once it inches towards being personal, it's not going to be a fun time. 

I guess this is one of those agree to disagree moments then.

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NostalgicChills In reply to Nurrdy [2019-09-17 12:33:19 +0000 UTC]

Even adults need guidance at times, particularly from those more experienced. Mufasa seemingly had his whole life to prepare for challenges while ruling a Kingdom, and he was clearly very experienced by the time he passed. Simba had virtually no training, no easement into Kingship, and was thrown into power and responsibility very quickly. It's no wonder it became quite overwhelming. Kion was young, but his troubles were often minor and non-consequential. 
Plus, there was that episode where Simba and Kion both talked to Mufasa, so the age theory doesn't really hold up. Mufasa just straight up ignored Simba in SP until the last scene. 

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Downfall-Anew In reply to NostalgicChills [2019-09-17 13:30:33 +0000 UTC]

While I do think Mufasa should've showed up when Simba asked for help as an adult, at the very least he DID have his mother. Sarabi was queen once, after all, she could help train and ease him into rulership since the other lionesses were already used to her rule as the queen and the hunting party leader.

That said, in the lion guard a living Sarabi could've been giving Kion advice and died in that episode about dealing with the loss of a grandparent, and then could've been the Jedi-cloud ghost he talked to. But Mufasa's gotta hog the spotlight so oh well.

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NostalgicChills In reply to Downfall-Anew [2019-09-17 13:40:29 +0000 UTC]

Sarabi was never shown anywhere after the first movie, so one could even argue she died not long after Scar was overthrown. She certainly was nowhere to be seen in SP. That explanation of yours could work if there was more evidence of it, but even still; a King's duties in a Lion pride differ quite a lot from a Queen's. Simba needed Mufasa's help the most. 

I'm not bashing Mufasa's character (he's always been my favorite) or The Lion Guard for this mess, even though it seems like it. It was just something I thought about while watching TLG.

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