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Party9999999 — Grassroots Revolution
Published: 2011-11-18 15:27:59 +0000 UTC; Views: 1514; Favourites: 24; Downloads: 28
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New Poster for the Occupy MovementRelated content
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The plan of "Part9999999" is to introduce a Stalinist/Maoist regime which would slaughter tens of millions of innocent people, and act as an Imperial war machine smashing everything in it's path.
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Nah. You actually debate me. so I wouldn't say it's trolling.
With that said, isn't that kind of what you want though? You talked to me about something that sounded pretty Imperialist (forcing your way of thinking on everyone regardless of whether they want it or not). It's pretty much the same thing as "making the world safe for democracy" by dropping bombs on unwilling populations. You have also never really commented on the fact that the Communists killed far more people than Hitler.
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About the whole death toll thing:
A lot of people died under communism, because It wasn't True communism. The communist parties were/are run by corrupt dictators who ruin(ed) it for everyone else. Marx said that for true communism to work, it would require those who put it in power to step down and join the masses after the system is properly established.
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The puppetmaster holding the carrot in front of the slave on the treadmill. People are motivated by things that they believe will benefit them or others. There is no system that last very long that can thrive without that. The communism that you are being sold is not consistent with human nature. It is a literal impossibility. You cannot deprive people of their individuality and retain any freedom, and you cannot give people that amount of power and also retain that freedom. Marx was either living in impractical theories or outright lying. I would challenge you to do a thourough research on the murderous tyrannical tendency for revolutionary movements save for a few. In fact, the only two really successful revolutions of that kind were the American Revolution and the Hatian Revolution. Haiti was strongarmed by other governments financially, so it ended that, and America is also being strongarmed by that. That isn't good. Stiil: Systems that murder hundreds of millions is better?
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I agree, communism is as idealist as anarchy is. I never said I agreed with it. 
What about the French Revolution? Yeah it turned totally bloody, but most revolutions require bloodshed because if the situation really requires revolution then it's past the point of peaceful negotiation.
As for the lack of free will thing: people still have free will. The only difference is that there's little to no illusion (again, though, depends if there's a dictator).
And obviously it's not good to murder hundreds of millions (though I think that's a taaad exaggerated).
I'm more socialist than communist (but according Marx socialism is what comes after the rev against capitalism...communism comes later).
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Why would I debate someone who calls me a stalinist/Maoist who does nothing but break Godwin's Law.
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We've had plenty of debates, and in one of them you did say that it was part of your proposed system that your beliefs should be violently forced on everyone even if they didn't want it, which is exactly what Stalin and Mao did. I simply said that you should be free to have a voluntary communist community in a free society so long as you respect the rights of people who don't want to live that way, and that is how you replied.
Essentially, that means that you have the same Imperialist mindset of thinking you know what's best for the world and using violence to force it on unwilling populations. . . It's the exact same thing as US Foreign policy.
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I don't want to violently inforced it, unlike the ruling class that violently holds on to it power.
Stalin didn't need to violently inforce much because when became General Secretary of the Communist Party, the Soviet state had been in been existence for 5 years.
Mate that a utopian idea, you can't base the world on voluntarism, that's not how society works and I'll be damned before I respect the right of a person to use another for self gain.
You could say that about everyone, we all think what we think is best for the world, even you.
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Okay, so then. . . you are perfectly okay with peacefully having a communist community along side my capitalist one, so long as we do not force our ways on each other. . . The only other alternative is to either not realize your goals at all, or to use violent means to force it on people against their will.
Are you claiming that Russian business owners gave up their property willingly? Are you the Soviet version of a Holocaust Denier? You do know that Mao and Stalin killed more people than Hitler, right? They also had concentration camps where they worked people to death in horrid conditions (a lot of the Russian camps were in the northern wastelands, where people often froze to death).
Actually, libertarians are the exception to that. The libertarian belief specifically does NOT believe it knows what is best for everyone, which is why everyone should be free to do what they feel is best for them, as long as they don't violate the rights of another. You can be a communist in a libertarian world, you just can't force people to be against their will. There were communistic voluntary communities in the United States in the 1800s - in that time where you think America was so horrid compared to now.
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No, I don't believe in Peaceful coexistence, that would just lead to another cold war
"As Marxists we have maintained that peaceful coexistence among nations does not encompass coexistence between the exploiters and the exploited, between the oppressors and the oppressed."
Che Guevara
I know Russian business owners didn't give up their property willingly, there was a three year civil war to prove that, all I said was that by the time stalin came to power that was all over.
I'm not a supporter of Stalin or Mao (not that really matters to you) I don't condone what they did, but must point out that capitalism has killed more people then any other system in history.
Ah the pseudo liberty shuffle
No your not you think everyone should follow that set of ideas, and how are you gonna stop people violating the rights of another when their is no real government in enforce that.
The world never changed without people fighting against it.
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In other words: arson is totally cool in a peaceful protest.
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A single action by a disturbed individual is not representative of the whole. Unless you have been there, and witnessed it happening, or are capable of citing me an unbiased source; you cannot tack the crimes of a few on the vast majority. Give me valid, unbiased proof otherwise.
I know this comment is old, but FFS.
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Here's one list, [link]
But for unbiased news you'd better look in an alternate universe.
In any case, it's a whole list, and for as good as every mentioned case there's a source backing it.
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I still think my point remains that the collective shouldn't be labeled anarchists, when only a handful are to be blamed for the crimes - whether alleged or not - are committed. There are bad apples on each side. But, the message OWS has to offer is still truth. There is despair amongst those living in America. I live it and know many that endure the struggle to keep themselves housed and fed.
Now, if a whole protest started to incite a deadly riot, or decided to wield assault weapons and fight back against Police with actual weapons, I would be convinced otherwise. The overall sound of the occupiers have been peaceful.
The list is outdated,and I know of a lot of other incidents. Not just with people that may or may not have connection with the movement. There are some where the police have shown violence.
[link] - [link]
- [link] -
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Your point definitely does stand, you can't blame a majority for a minority's actions.
But while I respect the frustration of these people with all the foreclosures and economic woes, and we are suffering some sheezy shit over here too...
While I'm cynical about politicians and corporate actions leading to economic gaps and cuts, I'm equally cynical about some parts of this movement.
It started up with people being frustrated about the slew of foreclosures in America, then it turned into people complaining about capitalism being the evil of the world, people hating Jews (?), and whatever other types who need something to ramble about.
Of course it's only from my outside perspective, but I feel they could've used some better organisation from the very start.
It's become a mess, and I find myself unable to really see it as a strong movement.
Sure, there's numbers, but in terms of coherency I'm not that horribly amazed by it.
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The anti-sentiment is not part of the movement. There were a few people trying to accuse the movement of racism, but it's been debunked. > [link] Cenk points out the flaws.
I understand that outside countries are suffering, too. It's a global depression. Economic suffering weighs heavy on everyone, and other forms of oppression from governments. As far as people complaining about the capitalism, yes. The very top 1% controls around 40% ~ 50% of the wealth of America, they can have lobbyists buy out politicians. And, a lot of other things.
And, leadership? Look at the past leaders of movements in America, or inspirational leaders in general. They get assassinated. They have a message that unifies the protesters, and draws people to it. A lot of it, because corporate heads have stolen from us. The banks have ruined our end of our economy. Our government is trampling our rights. They have plenty to be upset about.
From my understanding, they want a few things - not a terrible amount of things;;
> Money out of politics.
> For the banks to be reformed/payment given. [link] - [link]
> Health care reform. [link]
> End the war on Drugs. [link] By drugs, I mean pot.
I'm not a user of said pot, but I think it might have uses for the terminal ill. Given more research, there might be other benefits. -Shrug.- But, yeah. Those are just some documentaries I found out. Vanguard, on Current, is very resourceful.
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Not sure how you came to that.
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Blah blah blah hippies, blah blah blah socialism failed, blah blah blah they have ipods etc blah blah blah.
j/k
I hope the movement keeps going forward, its about time the apathy in the people came to an end.
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They are professional victims.
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