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etherealCoyote In reply to thewalkingman [2013-10-31 16:29:22 +0000 UTC]

Lighten up, it's a kids movie for entertainment.

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thewalkingman In reply to etherealCoyote [2013-11-01 00:25:22 +0000 UTC]

I don't really see how that makes it okay. 20-30 innocent people were murdered because of mass hysteria and religious paranoia. It would be like making a kids movie where the lynching of black people was portrayed as not only hilarious and cute, but justified. You wouldn't say "lighten up, it's a kids movie for entertainment" if it were making light of and justification for the holocaust or Japanese internment camps or the slaughter of native americans or slavery or any number of incredibly dark, evil things in American history. 

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etherealCoyote In reply to thewalkingman [2013-11-01 02:12:11 +0000 UTC]

Lol whatever man, I'm not even gonna read that whole thing.

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thewalkingman In reply to etherealCoyote [2013-11-01 02:31:13 +0000 UTC]

willful ignorance is fun!

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etherealCoyote In reply to thewalkingman [2013-11-01 02:50:38 +0000 UTC]

Indeed.

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DefianceComics In reply to thewalkingman [2013-10-31 14:52:52 +0000 UTC]

I'm a Pagan, and a witch, so generally I would agree with you. But Hocus Pocus is just too much fun to dislike.

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thewalkingman In reply to DefianceComics [2013-11-01 00:29:32 +0000 UTC]

For me it's not even about religious discrimination or persecution. I'm not pagan myself, but many people close to me are, including members of my immediate family. I've accepted that our culture is comfortable portraying witches as halloween crones casting evil spells with cauldrons and warts on their noses. I can get past that. My issue is that the people murdered during the Salem Witch Trials weren't even witches. They were midwives and doctors and random housewives who happened to get on someone's bad side. I'm not saying that if they were witches, it would be justified, but the whole thing is an incredibly awful, ugly chapter in American history. Making light of it, and portraying it as funny and righteous is disturbing and disgusting. 

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DefianceComics In reply to thewalkingman [2013-11-01 02:46:15 +0000 UTC]

All of those reasons would be why I would agree with you most times. But there are movies that are certainly more offensive in that area. "Season of the Witch" comes to mind. "Hocus Pocus" is just a fun little Halloween movie that certainly doesn't offend me in any way. But then, I love Bette Midler and her character. I don't see this as a serious portrayal of witches and of the Salem witch hunts, where movies that are more serious about it do offend me. "Hansel & Gretel" also comes to mind as more offensive than "Hocus Pocus". I certainly don't see anything being portrayed as righteous in "Hocus Pocus" as well, but then, what the hey, to each their own.

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thewalkingman In reply to DefianceComics [2013-11-01 04:49:54 +0000 UTC]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the premise of the movie that these three "real" witches were being executed for being witches? The idea being that the Salem Witch Trials were a just reaction and appropriate response to a real problem, ie: evil witches? It's been a while, but that's the introduction to the movie, right? 

The fact that it's a "fun little halloween movie" makes it that much more offensive. Season of the Witch was a crap B movie that no one watched. Hocus Pocus was a hugely successful Disney movie that people still talk about constantly and watch every year, yet no one seems to acknowledge the fact that they glorify the Salem Witch Trials. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills. At least Hansel and Gretel takes place in a fantasy world. Hocus Pocus is referencing an actual series of murders that happened in America in relatively recent history, and portraying them (as well as vigilante mob justice in general) as a morally correct and justified response to "witchcraft." It's mind blowing to me that people are comfortable with it. 

Like I said, I don't even care about the fact that they're portraying witches and evil and having super powers or whatever. My issue is with portraying a series of horrific murders as morally correct, and doing so in a children's movie. 

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DefianceComics In reply to thewalkingman [2013-11-01 06:49:10 +0000 UTC]

I am more offended that they portray witches as the bad guys. The Salem witch trial was awful, yes, but with witches as the main villian I find the Salem trials to be an apropos setting. Judging by this attitude, you must think that many movie are morally bankrupt. 

Take Will Ferral and his movies for instance. He is basically saying through his movies that white men are stupid, and it is okay to make jokes at their expense. What about the movie "Skin Game" that makes light of slavery for a majority of the time? And would I be correct in assuming that you are also against the death penalty? Even if the victim's family felt it was justified. 

In the world of "Hocus Pocus", witches are real and when they do evil things, they are punished. Like all people that get caught. Rather than get caught up in the portryal of the Salem Trails, which didn't last much longer than ten minutes, why not focus on the moral? No matter how powerful you are, if you are evil, you will not triumph. There are plenty of atrocities that are happening right now, so why focus on something that happened so long ago?

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thewalkingman In reply to DefianceComics [2013-11-01 17:12:39 +0000 UTC]

You find a mob of people gathering to hang a group of women they've deemed witches to be an appropriate response?

The Salem Witch Trials were a very real and horrible thing that happened not all that long ago, relatively speaking. The Will Ferral thing is a strange leap that I honestly don't understand how you're making. There's a huge difference between the a silly white person playing a silly white character than the systematic torture and murder of 30ish people for absolutely no reason other than religious hysteria, gossip mongering and paranoia. Skin Game was a relatively obscure movie that no one talks about anymore. I have to deal with 20 something kids going apeshit over Hocus Pocus every year and it gets the hell on my nerves. It's a "classic" that seems to be picking up steam rather than fading away. 

Since you asked, my feelings about the death penalty in general are in a bit of a transitional period. I used to be quite pro, but over the years I've come to see the flaws in the system and have seen potentially innocent people be executed. The West Memphis Three case also made a pretty impact about my feelings regarding capital punishment. I do, sometimes, feel like there are people who are irrevocably damaged to the point that they can never function in society without hurting or killing other people. I won't say that I'm entirely against the idea of executing them. So I'm not against the death penalty in certain cases, under the absolutely perfect circumstances, however I think the system is flawed enough that the idea of an innocent person being executed that it's hard for me to get behind it as a general rule. 

I am, however, completely disturbed by the idea of an angry mob lynching people. Which is basically what the Salem Witch Trials amounted to, and is exactly what Hocus Pocus portrayed. Topically enough, The West Memphis Three were also victims of that same kind of religious hysteria and rumor mongering, one of them was nearly executed because of it. So when you act like I'm crazy for being bothered by exploiting and glorifying something that happened a few hundred years ago, keep in mind that it's STILL happening, in some degree or another. 

Your defense that in the context of this movies, witches actually are evil and therefore the Salem Witch Trials were justified in that context doesn't really work either. If you made a children's movie where black people really were only three-fifths of a person and not actually human and then portrayed slavery as a justified and then made a children's movie where the premise was three black people narrowly escaping a justified lynching and travelling through time to terrorize the good, wholesome white people of 1993, people obviously wouldn't respond well to that. For a good reason. It's horrible. 

I don't bother getting upset about the portrayal of witches as the cackling, Wicked Witch of the West evil crones because that's a deeply embedded tradition that will take years of hard work to fix. I don't like it, certainly, but it's not really my fight, and, frankly, I'm not THAT concerned about religious persecution. Someone getting their feelings hurt about their religion being made fun of isn't super high on my list of concerns. I have no problem with other people being upset about it, because it IS shitty. I'm am quite bothered by the justification and exploitation of the murder of innocent people in a children's movie. It's not even a historical event that's questionable or in a moral gray area. Everyone accepts that The Salem Witch Trials were a horrific series of executions of innocent people. Hell, the term "witch hunt" literally means placing the blame for imagined crimes on innocent people because of mass hysteria and paranoia. It's not like this is some obscure and dodgy bit of history. It's a well documented, mostly uncontested atrocity in America's past. 

"Rather than get caught up in the portrayal of the Salem Trails, which didn't last much longer than ten minutes, why not focus on the moral? No matter how powerful you are, if you are evil, you will not triumph"

because that's the moral of practically every kids movie ever made. Are you telling me that it's okay to exploit and justify a series of cold blooded murders that were the result of mass hysteria in a children's movie, as long as the message is that good triumphs over evil? And I shouldn't be bothered by the horrendously awful and offensive aspects of the movie, because it has the exact same message as pretty much every other kids movie?

Yes, there are plenty of atrocities happening right now... and no one is making a kids movie portraying them as a GOOD thing. I imagine that if Disney made a movie about the Sandy Hook Shooting and portrayed Adam Lanza as the good guy, bringing those evil children to justice, it probably wouldn't go over well. Why am I out of line for being bothered by the celebration of this particular atrocity in American history? Because it happened a few hundred years ago makes it okay?

The fact that people have some nostalgic love of this movie is exactly why it's a problem. People are happy to keep perpetuating this disturbing portrayal of very real events because it pushes their happy "MY CHILDHOOD!! SOB!!!" button that's so popular these days. It's exactly how all kinds of discrimination and ignorance of horrible things is perpetuated. People are willing to sacrifice common sense and critical thinking in favor of tradition and nostalgia. It's why racist parents have racist kids, it's why christianity continues to isolate, control and discriminate against people basically unchecked, and it's why witches still, for the most part, still live in the broom closet. 

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DefianceComics In reply to thewalkingman [2013-11-01 19:19:48 +0000 UTC]

Y'know, was gonna post TL;DR, but curiosity got the better of me.

The key phrase in my previous comment was "In the world of 'Hocus Pocus'," But since you seem incapable of separating fantasy from reality, I am deeming this argument done.

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thewalkingman In reply to DefianceComics [2013-11-01 23:51:30 +0000 UTC]

And I addressed your "In the world of Hocus Pocus" point when I said that if Disney made a movie where "in the world of that movie" black people really were three fifths of a human being and slavery was portrayed as justified and appropriate, people would lose their minds, and rightly so. 

I guess the argument is done now that you're just being insulting. Good job. 

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MuseRockzz In reply to ??? [2013-10-30 00:58:10 +0000 UTC]

Ooh, so nostalgic! Great artwork

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tiredTsundere In reply to ??? [2013-10-30 00:54:36 +0000 UTC]

Love love LOVE this movie! <3

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