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Shin-Wolf In reply to Me-is-totaly-awesome [2013-11-07 13:52:54 +0000 UTC]

It depends on how you interpret it. I want to base it on the modern countries. So Portugal came first, and Spain was "born" when Castile and Aragon united. 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but after lots of research and many talks with many friends, a lot of us agreed on having Portugal as the older brother. The Hispania part is extremely complicated and most have them as a separated characters. After all, they were something else before the Carthaginian and Romans took the land and then changes into this and that thought the ages.

It just my head canon, so don't take it too seriously, there are other people with different ideas as well,

Thanks tho ^ ^

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Me-is-totaly-awesome In reply to Shin-Wolf [2013-11-08 20:23:27 +0000 UTC]

I see... it does make sense.

I understand your point of view. I also agree that the Hispania part is complicated.

Not at all. One of the rules of the Hetalia fandom is to always accept other people's oppinions. And I do understand what you mean.

You're welcome dear.

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Shin-Wolf In reply to Birvan [2012-07-16 02:37:00 +0000 UTC]

He gets creepy a lot of time.

and yeah, they can't be left in the same room.... (though I'd love to see a nice cute brotherly scene sometimes, too)

Talking about that, Who do you think would be that one person who usually butted in and stop them from fighting? Or everyone just knows better and let them fight themselves until they both passed out?

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Birvan In reply to Shin-Wolf [2012-07-16 20:23:42 +0000 UTC]

I would know XD

Well there was one scene I once read (but I can no longer find the link) where both worked together to troll America
Basically it was a big international soccer presentation and America built a huge stage with a lot of lights, sound and special effects. I guess both Port and Spain got annoyed at him boasting when he has no real talent to speak of, so they simply walked by with Figo and another major spanish player (I don't like soccer, so I have no idea who the guy was). Needless to say all the news crew turned their attention on them. America put a big tantrum and accused them of being bad sportsmen for stealing his spotlight (and if it was in his house I think he'd probably sue them for it)

Well they usually avoid each other and specific topics to begin with, so they usually just glare and ignore each other. When they do fight however most just watch the show and wait for them to tire each other out

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Shin-Wolf In reply to Birvan [2012-07-16 20:54:56 +0000 UTC]

so there's simply no one who would stop them...:/ If the opportunity happened in a fanfiction or doujinshi, I wonder if I could use Russia. (the only one who seems to be compatible in creepiness when they're mad and shit....)

Oh America.... orz I wouldn't be surprised.

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Birvan In reply to Shin-Wolf [2012-07-17 01:03:12 +0000 UTC]

Well... there are some people inside Spain's house who would stop him. Aragon and Basque mainly, since if Spain started a fight with Portugal he'd get the resources from their rooms and drag them into it
In worse occasion England and France would also be dragged into the fight, but considering those 2 just love an excuse to fight each other, they usually use the brother's fight as an excuse to try to take advantage of the situation (it's nit just France that likes to stick his hands in someone else's business)

As for Russia I know for a fact Port respects him, but he's not afraid of him (they live too far apart for Russia to attempt anything without everyone else stopping him first. Also Port is insane enough to wrestle bulls barehanded when bored)
For example when Kosovo wanted to become independence and started asking the other countries for acknowledgement, Russia "suggested" Port to refuse. Next thing he knew Port was waving thumbs up at Kosovo saying he'd recognize him (never, ever try to tell Port how he should behave. He'll do the exact opposite just to annoy you)
Other example is when Portugal went to visit Soviet Russia and Russia wanted him to take a tour in Estonia's room, Portugal refused right on his face and moved to the rest of the tour (because he didn't acknowledged Estonia as one with Russia)

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Shin-Wolf In reply to Birvan [2012-07-17 03:47:03 +0000 UTC]

Sound like Spain will stop while Port deliver the last blow. works for me. (and Aragon work as well. Actually maybe Port will ALWAYS deliver the last blow....not because Spain really listen to other people, but he probably get distracted something like that)

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Birvan In reply to Shin-Wolf [2012-07-17 09:13:41 +0000 UTC]

If you mean by last blow Port delivering a swift kick in Spain's butt to get him out of his house, yes, he would most definitely deliver it

Spain's problem always was spreading himself too thin over his patchwork of a house. Unless he keeps his juggling act non stop, the other members of the family start getting independent ideas and the corners start to crumble ^^
(unlike Port, Spain never managed to achieve unity within his own house. Though he'd never admit it)

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thepagansun In reply to Birvan [2013-04-23 04:16:44 +0000 UTC]

Hey now....then again! Port had the advantage of being physically smaller than Spain. Spain had more tiny "nations in his house than Port. And Port also had the more reliabe ally: England. France was quite the "Bad Friend" indeed to Spain. At least England never tried to invade Portugal (to my knowledge).

And Port might wrestle bulls bare handed (with a couple other people) but Spain also developed the original fencing AND the Keysi Fighting Method (KFM for short) which was used in hit movies like Mission Impossible and the Batman Trilogy! That's quite badass too!

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Birvan In reply to thepagansun [2013-05-03 12:35:49 +0000 UTC]

Being smaller often proved to be a disadvantage as well. That's why Port prefers to be sneaky than to openly confront Spain in most cases

England has pretty much invaded most of the world, but Portugal is among the 22 he never got around to (and I think they're the only alliance that was never broken by invasions). Mainly because Port has no significant land riches worth the travelling distance and cost and because he proved to be a useful ally
Though there were occasions where he did have a military presence and put some pressure on Port, much to his displeasure. His anthem is actually an outcry against England

Oh Port is evenly matched to Spain when it comes to fencing. Besides Jogo do Pau (which is so kickass that Port can even fight while sitting or sprawling on the ground) Port was a highly feared swordsman back in the Discoveries
Instead of using a shield on his left hand he traded the extra safety it for a dagger. That meant when he got close enough for hand-to-hand combat he would use the dagger to parry the enemy's sword and create an opening for his own. It was so efficient that the mere mention of his name would make armies of thousands think twice before facing a few hundreds portuguese
Though I'll admit the role his cannons and forts played were very important too

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thepagansun In reply to Birvan [2013-05-26 04:34:38 +0000 UTC]

True...I guess it worked in both ways and was advantage and disadvantage depending on the situation. Poor Spain and Port! Being brothers yet spending most of their time fighting.

Yeah...England was cunning, sly, and manipulative but it's good that for the most part he upheld his alliance with Portugal. Oh really? I never knew that about Portugal's anthem. Wow...you learn something new everyday. France though...ugh. It's strange but when France wanted to be sweet he could REALLY be sweet: like when he gave Lousianna to Spain freely for helping him in the Seven Years War and when he teamed up with Spain to try to get Gibraltar back. I don't think Spain ever forgot those times. But when it was in France's interests, France threw alliances out the window and bakstabbed Spain many times. Napoleon being just one of those times.

Well since they're brothers, I guess that's expected that they're both equally amazing at swordsmanship and hand-to-hand combat. Really? How cool! Needless to say, Spain was quite the fencer and dueler too! And what I read from the KFM was that it was a survival style martial arts from gypsies in Sevilla that was highly diverse and allowed one to fight either weaponed or bare-handed and to take on many opponents at a single time!

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Birvan In reply to thepagansun [2013-05-26 13:51:48 +0000 UTC]

I'd be more worried if they didn't spend time fighting. Spain is a (nation) kleptomaniac and Port's sense of identity did come from wanting to set himself apart from his brother. In the end we ended up with 2 very distinct flavors, instead of a shared blandness

Funny thing is Portugal likes France a lot too (in my headcanon Lisbon is particularly enamoured by France's charm, as the fado song "Lisboa não sejas francesa" (=Lisbon don't be french) warns her)
But truth to be told, although Portugal tends to get along with everyone (except his brother), he doesn't trust anyone, not even England > >

I think it also has to do with the tradition they've both inherited, but I don't know enough to talk much about fighting styles, their distributions and how they're tied to local cultures in different countries. I'm only familiar with some Portugal uses

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thepagansun In reply to Birvan [2013-05-27 02:02:27 +0000 UTC]

LOL...well I guess it's to be expected for brother nations that were (and are) so strong and influential. "Nation kleptomaniac?" XD (Funny image!) But hey now...it's been a while since Spain tried any nation-napping! You really shouldn't hold that against him...especially how Portugal was the first to do some nation-napping and colonizing, no? Spain sailed west in the first place to find another way to the Spice islands without following Port's passage. Shame, shame...kettle. Well...Spain and Portugal are their own countries, but I'd like to think they're fairly similar in certain ways.

Oh yeah? But they certainly didn't like each other back then, since as you know France used to help Spain try to take over Portugal So shame on you Port...you can forgive France but not Spain?! For shame! LOL..just kidding. XD I'd like to think that Spain and Portugal get along fairly well in modern times. I mean, there might still be rivalry, but I don't think it's anything more serious than that. Except maybe unless they go against each other at football.

Yes, maybe. Their styles do sound alike. Yeah...I'm no expert either but I only know some of Spain's.

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Birvan In reply to thepagansun [2013-05-27 08:56:12 +0000 UTC]

Oh no, no, the kleptomaniac refers to Spain's attitude towards Europe. After trying to get everyone in Iberia he still tried to get everyone else by marrying Austria (Port on the other hand kept his back towards Europe most of his life)
The Discoveries is a completely different business of unfair taking over, monopoly and intermingling (Port still has the saying "God made the white and black (men), but the portuguese created the mulato") > >

Well Spain acted both as an enemy and a shield. Port was relatively safe from everyone else because unless they walked over Spain's house (which would be unlikely), the only other way to reach Port was by sea and that's his territory (the Atlantic can be pretty harsh unless you know the coastal waters and currents quite well)
But yeah, they tend to get along rather well at individual level. But mention economics and Port goes into automatic defensive mode because he feels being invaded by Spain > >

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thepagansun In reply to Birvan [2013-05-28 14:05:32 +0000 UTC]

Ooooooh. I see. But then again the whole marriage to Austria thing kind of started as a "This is to ensure we have allies" kind of thing rather than a "Muahaha! I shall RULE Europe" thing since Spain as a unfied country was just "born" (and even then not really) when Isabel and Ferdinad married and so Isabel married off her children abroad, many to the Hapburgs and it just so happened that by marrying into the Hapsburgs, Spain inherited much of Austria's European "colonies." So it kind of happened more by accident than any real plot only that Isabel wanted her chidren to be in secure political marriages. Of course once Spain DID get the European "colonies," he fought VERY hard and long to hold on to them.

As for Portugal turning its back to Europe...well, it did make a life-long ally in England (whereas France and even Austria were on again off again friends and allies) but then again I guess England itself was a "black sheep" of Europe. XD

Yes, the Discoveries were a sad business. "The Portuguese mad the mulatto?" How clever! XD Hmmm...it's not said in Spain, but Spain can say they "made the mestizo". LOL

Ah..yes, I suppose sharing a pennisula with Spain had its advantages and disadavtanges. Yup...the Atlantic is quite harsh. That's good they get along well as individuals? But wait economics? You mean in modern times? How come?

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Birvan In reply to thepagansun [2013-05-31 19:59:06 +0000 UTC]

Naaaah, I think it goes a bit beyond the whole allies things. He definitely had his eyes set on expanding his power (all european countries have that goal, sadly enough)
Port made sure he wasn't caught in those marriages himself, to make sure he wouldn't get swallowed

If it wasn't the need to make sure he had someone to help him keep Spain at bay he wouldn't have made alliances with anyone

It goes to show how comfortable Port was with mixing his blood with the "inferior races". Everyone else, even Spain frowned upon the thought (England particularly)

Yes, nowadays you can see there's a major imbalance in the amount of companies/franchises Spain has established in Portugal and vice-versa. He's basically taking over the portuguese market while Port gets weaker and weaker to fight it and becomes more dependent than ever on foreign products

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thepagansun In reply to Birvan [2013-06-10 23:42:54 +0000 UTC]

Well, I know that once "married" to Austria he definitely did everything he could to make sure his inheritances: Netherlands, Belgium, Luxemburg, S. Italy, etc stayed with him. But, I really don't think he started out with that as his intention. He was just making sure France stayed off his back. Hmmm...I guess.

LOL...perhaps so.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on that one. For Spain, in the POV of many Spaniards, it was never a point of mixing with "inferior" races. Race wasn't an issue for them. They CLEARLY mixed with many races even before Portugal came into the picture in the New World. It was more of an issue of religion. They wanted to make sure the people they mixed with ended up being Catholic. And once they became Catholic, they were supposed to be treated as equals "under the eyes of God." Of course, many Spanish officials still wanted to keep their power and the unequal power structure and ignored the royal edicts. But yeah...Spain mixed with other races and even made different categories to keep track of them all. I'm a direct result of that.

Oh really? Wow....that's a real shame. But if it affects him so much can't he just say, "Bro we're cool now but I don't wanna do business with you anymore?" I mean, it's HIS market. Doesn't he get a say in who gets a cut in it?

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Birvan In reply to thepagansun [2013-07-02 22:12:55 +0000 UTC]

Either way he bit more than he could chew and dragged a lot of people down with him in the process > >

I'm not going to argue much on this topic mostly because what Portugal teaches about it isn't to be trusted to begin with. Even though the facist rule has fallen ages ago the type of brainwashing used in schools towards history hasn't changed much
All I know is with Portugal having little population to begin with he had no choice but to allow mingling with the natives, so the children would have reasons from both sides to protect the lands. Spain had a bit of it too, yes, but because of the whole religious issues he still had it was in a lesser degree. I've even heard he was the one who started the whole blue blood nobility purity!

No because of being part of the European Union and not being able to produce the goods by himself. It's a really messy topic

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thepagansun In reply to Birvan [2013-07-08 04:46:45 +0000 UTC]

True, but most strong countries or empires were doing more or less the same thing before and after Spain so...Spain didn't really do anything any worse or better than any other empire did. : /

I see. I think Spain is the same way with much of its facist history still ingrained in the system, especially in politics. But slowly but surely it was getting better. (People aren't very happy with this recent conservative government though). Hmmm...but those that mingled with the natives didn't always return to Portugal and Brazil certainly didn't have Portugal's problem with the whole smaller size and population thing so that's kind of a moot point. Also, yes, Spain was concerned with "purity" but more on a religious side than a racial one (Hey, someone had to be out in the fields or mines and for them, it was a way to convert people to Christianity since those that didn't want to convert had to make do with being laborers or slaves and those that converted added to the Catholic faith so either option would've helped Spain...not that I agree with what they did. I'm pagan, but this is their POV) So yeah, they focused on "purity" but I think a LOT of that is exaggerated like much of the Black Legend, by Spain's enemies at the time: England, the Netherlands, and Portugal. Because whether wanted or not, the vast majority of Latin America (myself included) are mixed. Even today in Spain, most people I run into get excited when I tell them I'm Puerto Rican and urge me to discover which part of Spain my family is from and to find out if I have any living relatives there so whatever "rasicm" or "purity" or anything that might've been there is fairly gone now (I mean, there are always hateful/crazy people in every country but thankfully, I haven't run into them) So yeah...Spain still sees itself as Latin America's Mother and is actually quite proud of "la mestizaje." You can even look it up on Youtube! It's called "Mestizaje en América" but it's in Spanish. So yeah...sorry for the long paragraph. I mean, I did't really want to get into this either, but I kind of wanted it understood that even if Spain wanted "purity of blood" (for religious reasons), that's a mindset it doesn't really have anymore and Portugal had slavery and a sense of "purity" too though in it's past though more for racial reasons than for religious ones. : /

Oh I see. That's a shame.

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Birvan In reply to thepagansun [2013-07-08 23:34:30 +0000 UTC]

No, I mean he stretched himself too thin in all different directions and it was the other people that suffered the consequences in order to feed his wars. It's a well known fact that despite all the riches he was importing from the Americas he was broke > >

To be completely honest I think Portugal's hatred for Spain was already so deep he didn't need the Black Legend (I didn't even know that thing existed until I've read some english texts about it). Mainly we just blame them for the Iberian Union (aka the Phillips, the money draining, the loss of the portugese fleet in the Invincible Armada and the loss of many portuguese colonies due to lack of proper protection). The brutality of the Inquisition and the colonization of the Americas we barely talk about it because we focus on our share of the story instead > >

But considering the parent of the Latin American countries, Portugal feels the same way towards his ex-colonies... but we can't say it out loud to anyone except to Timor-Leste or Macau without starting a verbal war
Brazil, Angola, Mozambique and the others hate to be put under an inferior level, because it reminds them of the occupation. Isn't it the same with Spain's kids?

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thepagansun In reply to Birvan [2013-07-11 18:44:16 +0000 UTC]

Oh, I see. I think I understand what you were trying to say now. Yeah, he was broke...but it was a feat that even broke, he managed to last and dominate as long as he did. But yeah....as you said, not so good for those he fighting against or the ones that had to fund it.

Yeah...understandable. It's a side that should be told more often I guess. Though I read somewhere that Spain actually did help Portugal protect Brazil against the Dutch, but as to how much help I couldn't say.

Oh, well that's nice! Oh really? Well, I guess it depends (some countries like Peru, Chile, etc. got treated worse at times than the others so the resentment is slightly stronger there) but for the most part, no. Most people are actually shocked to learn how much of Latin America still looks up to and feel affetion for Spain. (Many still call it "La Madre Patria") Spain has helped in peace keeping missions in Central and South America, given lots of medicine and aid to the Caribbean and Latin American countries, and took their side against the USA in diplomatic issues. I'm sure they haven't forgotten nor entirely forgiven what was done, but I think it's softned by the fact that Spain did and does think of itself as their "mom" and pays close attention to their progress (Much of the news in Spain has to do with Latin America). I guess it's also helped by the fact that in Madrid, they have a statue of Rizal, the Filipino hero who fought against and was executed by Spain, and in Cádiz, they have Simón Bolivar, who's the hero of much of Latin America and also fought against Spain. But Spain has stautes of them with the words "Héroe de la raza." I think Spain knows that his kids are independent and adults now and that he certaily can't control them like he used to, but there's still a bond that both Spain and his kids aknowledge that can never quite be broken.

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Birvan In reply to thepagansun [2013-07-11 19:55:24 +0000 UTC]

The Phillips definitely earned their bad reputation around here thanks to it (and the fact they looked on the portuguese, which is a sure way to get us pissed off)

He did, but barely. He was a lot more focused on his own colonies (which exported precious metals, not sugar and timber) and wars

I guess the fact the Spanish colonies having split up into several countries, unlike Brazil who remained a single entity, created room for Spain to come in and act as mediator between their disputes and helped redeem himself towards them

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thepagansun In reply to Birvan [2013-07-12 05:21:26 +0000 UTC]

Who's the Phillips? And how did they look on the Portuguese?

Yes, he did. Well, he was focused on both parts of the world which I think added to his downfall in the long run since not only was he fighting his usual wars in Europe, but he was also defeating THREE empires in the New World, not to mention the various smaller tribes like the Mapuche, etc. It must've been extremely difficult! And all this while whatever money, gold or resources he had from the New World just went right back into funding more wars. That's pretty impressive!

Yes, perhaps. That could be one theory. But we Latin Americans have always thought of Spain as our "mother" by blood ("father" really since our mothers are the various indigenous and African tribes) and for us, it's true that though we sometimes fight amongst ourselves, any other outsider taking a crack against a Latin American country and the rest of us will descend on that country like a plague! Spain would probably be the only one they'd listen to. And actually any Latin American, Filipino, or Sephardic Jew (I think Moorish too but I'm not sure) only has to live in Spain for two years to be granted full Spanish citizenship whereas for anyone else, that person has to first live in Spain for 10 years! Is is that way for Portugal too?

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Birvan In reply to thepagansun [2013-07-13 23:09:11 +0000 UTC]

The Phillips are what we call the 3 Phillips kings that ruled us during the Iberian Union
We didn't have much of a strong opinion about the first 2, the nobles approved their rule because they got to keep their rights, while the people resented and often tried to sabotage the spanish endeavors (the reason why the other countries became so knowledgeable about ocean travelling was because many portuguese sailors leaked out the routes or even joined their ships, pirate ones included. And the portuguese officials often provided false information about the pirate ships in order to let them loot the spanish armada in the Caribbeans). The 3rd one however started to treat Portugal as a colony and not as an autonomous region, which led to him finally lose his patience and kick Spain out

Pretty impressive failing, yes. He should have had a bit more common sense and try to secure good relations instead of fighting all over the place > >

With Portugal the relationship is a bit more thorny. He and Brazil are always tossing insults at each other, every now and then. With the African nations Port still feels rather responsible for them, but they are still very sore towards him and often give him the cold shoulder. With Timor he's still really overprotective and with Macau he has a healthy relationship of respect and mutual understanding (as far as I know)
Despite all this Port still tries to help out as much as he can. The African nations often send their worse patients to receive treatment at Port's home, since they lack the proper resources at home (sadly this system is often abused), and with Timor he still goes there often to help rebuild the country and provide education and other resources. Brazil is self-sufficient, so Portugal avoids interfering, and Macau is in China's care

As for how long it takes to achieve citizenship, I think it's 6 years. It's a bit messy because of the former colonies [link] but he at least doesn't have any trouble allowing dual citizenship

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thepagansun In reply to Birvan [2013-07-14 23:45:41 +0000 UTC]

Ooohhh, I see now. Yeah even in Spain the first two Phillips get glossed over which is probably why I was so confused. Oh wow! I didn't know that! That's pretty cool! Yeah...it always seemed that Spain was more of a land fighter than a sea fighter although he had his fair share of naval victories too, but before the Spanish Armada, it was said that they usually boarded ships and fought hand to hand than used lots of firepower. In fact, I read that in the Spanish wreckage, that's why many Spanish ships still had their ammo whereas the Portuguese ships only surrendered after they depleted theirs.

Hey now! LOL I wouldn't call it "impressive failing." I mean, look at how quickly England managed to lose HIS 13 colonies in the Americas and France lost Haiti! For Spain to be fighting in the New World, Europe, get married to Portugal, be broke most of the time, AND still remain on top for as long as he did was more than impressive. I mean, most other countries probably wouldn't have lasted half so long! But I agree he should've been more dimplomatic but...in his defense, I guess it's understandable when he had hostilities in Portugal and France to deal with, both being very close neighbors, he needed to show his militaristic side. And France...who used to flip flop between being his friend and enemy. You could never really tell with him. And Portugal was kinda making enemies too! Netherlands stabbed him in the back so yeah -_-

Really? Wow...thanks for clarifying all this. It's a fascinating relationship though for some, a bittersweet one. That's great that at least Portugal does what he can.

Ah. Very cool. That's great! For most Latin American countries or former colonies, Spain allows dual citizenship too! (Even PR upon request! YAY! ) The USA on the other hand has a BIG problem with it. >> Seriously...the only reason I haven't become a Spanish citizen yet is because I still want access to PR where I plan to live for half the year.

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Birvan In reply to thepagansun [2013-07-19 23:39:16 +0000 UTC]

Yeah, Spain (aka Castile) is definitely a land boy, born and raised, so it's not surprising that shows in the fighting techniques. Port feels far more at home in the water than his brother does

Also Portugal had a much strong motivation to never give up. He always lacked in numbers, which led him to develop a much stronger urge to never give up, to the point others consider him insane/suicidal

I know I exaggerated a bit, but it was too good to pass up  Seriously though it might just be my portuguese tendency to avoid unnecessary risks talking, but I still think Spain tried to bite more than he could chew by having so many war fronts at the same times

As for Portugal and Netherlands, it was not backstabbing, it was an predictable consequence of the Iberian Union (and therefore 100% Spain's fault). Being under Spain's rule means you also inherit his enemies and become free game for their attacks > >

He's trying to mend the past as much as he can. I can't say he was the model parent, but at least he's trying to make up for it

I'm not surprised, sadly. America is a really big idiot when he wants to be Xp

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thepagansun In reply to Birvan [2013-08-07 21:15:12 +0000 UTC]

Yup...the battles and their history certainly show that to be true. Portugal, the first in modern times, to reach and trade with the East Indies and establish his own trading/merchant empire, and Spain the conquistador, battling on land. Even in most of Spain's naval battles, he tried to board ships and make it into a psuedo-land battle. Yeah understandable...Portugal had his own freedom and kingdom to gain and everything to lose if he didn't put everything he had into his fights, whereas if Spain lost Portugal there were still his other European and of course Latin American colonies to look after. And I think Spain also inherited his "never back down" mentality from his big bro since in many battles where he was outnumbered and outgunned, Spain also gave hell. The Spanish-American War as one example that even though Spain eventually and quickly lost, (but again...when the Americans and Cubans took out his navy there was no point to go on fighting anymore) the vastly outnumbered Spanish (sometimes by several thousands!) gave the American/Cuban forces hell on land! And ended up winning the naval Battles of 1st Cárdenas, 3rd Cárdenas, 1st Cienfuegos, 2nd Cienfuegos, 1st Manzanillo, and 2nd Manzanillo and the more impressive land Battles of Las Guasimas, Tayacoba, the Aguadores (American/Cuban strength of 2,400 regulars, 300 guerrillas, 1 cruiser & 2 gunboats vs a mere 274 Spanish soldiers. Result: 2 American/Cuban dead & 10 wounded vs no Spanish losses!), and Manimani! And in the American/Cuban victories of El Caney and San Juan Hill, the Spanish were again HEAVILY outnumbered (by the thousands!) yet managed to deal greater casualties! Later in the 1970s when Spain was looking to join NATO, one American general cautioned the other countries not to keep Spain waiting long since the Spanish were "tough and courageous fighters" and that the most "patient and docile of people" are also the "most volatile!"

No worries! It's understandable. Spain did have hard time dealing with his European, Latin American, African (Melilla in Morocco), and Pacific (Phillipines, Guam, Marshall Islands, etc.) colonies all at the same time! It was bound to take its toll. LOL...I guess that's one way to see Portugal and Netherlands but that's how they themsleves saw their own colonies' rebellions at that time also so Spain's mentality was the mentality of ALL the European powers as Portugal and Netherlands themselves later found out. But perhaps whether right or wrong, Spain was also thinking pre-emptively in a kind of "Let me conquer/take over them, before they can conquer/take over ME!" I mean, it's only understandable too that he'd feel threatened by Portugal and Netherland's trading power and their own colonies and along with his on again, off again "friend" France and another big sea power Britain, I can't really blame him. It was "swallow or be swallowed" back then. And as you said, at least they're both trying to make up for thier pasts.

Yes...that's very good! I' glad that at least Spain and Portugal both are trying to do what's best for their former colonies!

Yup....so sad.

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Birvan In reply to thepagansun [2013-08-13 13:24:45 +0000 UTC]

Yeah, while Portugal preferred to fight from a distance and let the cannons do the work (he was actually so good at it he could fire them parallel to the water line and make the cannon balls skip on the water surface, increasing the range and sink ships at water level. I kid you not!)

Personally I think that's a feature all the Iberian nations share, rather than Spain getting it from Portugal. We have a lot of old, crazy blood running through our veins, so I'm not surprised Spain managed to deal that much damage

Yeah, that medieval mentality that carried on over the centuries caused a lot of damage... and it still is

*and sorry for the overly short reply, I'm having trouble finding the proper words to reply, but I didn't want to leave you waiting too long either*

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thepagansun In reply to Birvan [2013-08-14 07:43:11 +0000 UTC]

Wow! That IS certainly quite impressive! I'm not sure Spain ever got that good with cannons or even firearms in general (many documents from the late 1700s to the Spanish-American War describe the Spanish as "shooting into the air")  So many of them had to fight in whatever other way they could.

Oh, I see! Well that's good. Yeah...if I were a country, I surely wouldn't want to mess with either Spain or Portugal!  I mean anyone can win wars and battles with supieror technology or weapons, but it takes  real courage, strength, and tactics to win when the odss are against you.

Yeah...so sad.

Oh no worries! I understand! I always enjoy our conversations and debates!

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Birvan In reply to thepagansun [2013-08-17 21:01:10 +0000 UTC]

I think he always liked swords best, but I don't know enough to be an accurate source

You can say that again. It's one of the reasons we don't like how America acts all superior when he always fights wars well away from his house > >

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thepagansun In reply to Birvan [2013-09-22 19:36:49 +0000 UTC]

Yeah....I think he did too. The swords from Toldeo were legendary.

Yeah....I definitely agree! He's had it pretty easy compared to what the Europeans in all their history and wars went through. 

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Birvan In reply to thepagansun [2013-10-01 07:33:11 +0000 UTC]

Yeah, Toledo has an awesome reputation for its steel

Actually since pre-roman times the peninsula was known for the quality of its metalwork. The falcata is a great example of an ancient blade

Personally I think that boosted his self-confidence in the wrong way. He relies on guns way too much and is way too cocky > >

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thepagansun In reply to Birvan [2013-10-06 20:10:45 +0000 UTC]

Yup! Oh yeah all of Iberia/Hispania was known for metalwork and precious metals like silver, gold and copper. Oohh I've heard of that!

Yeah...I agree. He thinks he's the best just because invests the most in his military and he might have better technology. But how many times in history hasn't the army with the better weapons, equipment, more numbers, etc. failed a battle or war because they weren't prepared or had crappy leadership and tactics? Quite a few...USA shouldn't be so cocky then.

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Birvan In reply to thepagansun [2013-10-30 21:00:33 +0000 UTC]

I can't help to find sad this reputation being poorly known outside certain circles. Metalwork deserves respect

Sadly his isolation works for his advantage... or disadvantage, depending on the point of view (it definitely isn't helping his sanity)

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thepagansun In reply to Birvan [2013-12-05 03:19:32 +0000 UTC]

Oh definitely. Especially since it's a skill/craft that honors tradition and dedication. 

Yup....pretty much. 

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