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Published: 2017-01-15 12:25:35 +0000 UTC; Views: 6804; Favourites: 57; Downloads: 3
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So here's kind of a different take on Frisk saying they have places to go at the end of the Pacifist route. Logically, it would make sense if Frisk has a family and would be their push to get out of the Underground and back to the Surface, but there are a lot of us who also headcanon Frisk as not having one and something involving that being their push to stay with Toriel--and I'm one of those fans who favors the latter more. So I got to thinking, what if this Frisk had nearly completed a Genocide route, reset, and then went on the Pacifist route, but chose not to be with Toriel or become the ambassador because they didn't feel like they deserved to be with any of them after what they had done?The Frisk I--will--normally work on did just a single Pacifist route since that's what I did, but I couldn't resist working on the idea.
I chose Sans as being the person to notice this and go back for them, because I think he'd be the one to understand the most. Now, I'm not certain if he himself would be the most forgiving, but he's also the sort of person who knows that even with how bad another person may be, they still have people that care about them and he doesn't want to see those people--like Toriel and Papyrus--get hurt even though Frisk is trying to do what she thinks is right by isolating herself. (Or themself, whichever you prefer. I won't bite if you call my interpretation of Frisk a 'he' either. My Frisk is a girl, but I really don't care since Frisk's gender is never stated and often use 'they' myself for them--like in the first paragraph. :3 Their pants are filled with determination.) Anywhoodles, I think--even though it would be hard for him--if Sans believed someone was genuinely trying to do the right thing that he would try to forgive them if only for the other people he cares about. (It's better to keep them close if they did try anything, but that's beside the point.)
Now, as for how much Sans knows about previous timelines... There's been a lot of debate on it and each side has a reasonable argument until we know more. As of now, with what I've got from research, he doesn't really show any signs of knowing about a Genocide run before a Pacifist run. However, others such Papyrus have commented on Frisk by saying they look familiar, hinting at some level of metaknowledge. I think it's safe to say that out of anyone, Sans is likely to have the greatest idea or sense of metaknowledge, even if he doesn't keep his memories of previous runs. Either way though, even if he knew absolutely nothing and maybe couldn't even fathom this passive kid being a mass murderer at one point, Sans is also good at reading people. If Frisk did contain that level of guilt, I feel it would be pretty obvious to him from the beginning. It would be in their eyes with glimmers of horror and despair reflected in them, it would be in their body language with how careful they would act around people, and it would be in their attempts to keep a certain level of distance. He wouldn't know what was going through their head, but I bet he could make a pretty good guess.
One of the main reasons I made this two-parter though is simply because I'm tired of seeing people bash artists when they make works covering this. "It wasn't Chara! You did this! You killed everyone!" Yes, the fate of what happens in the game is strongly based on the player's choices, HOWEVER, as a storyteller and a comic artist, you can't place yourself in the game. Because the player doesn't exist in the game. Frisk exists. Chara exists. They have their own backstories and their own lives that move on without the player's influence and have both shown that they're capable of making their own choices. (If you're on a Genocide route, you can't spare Asgore or Flowey because of Chara, and if you're on a Pacifist route you can't kill Undyne when you try to fight her seriously at her house because of Frisk.) When we artists and writers cover Undertale, we can't tell the story through the eyes of a player. We have to tell the story in the eyes of a character and TAKE THE PLAYER OUT OF THE PICTURE. Therefore, yes, people are going to interpret story with Chara controlling Frisk on a Genocide run because that's pretty much what happens without you. As to why or how Chara could control Frisk, I don't think they have that much power in the beginning, but the more Frisk gives into their own fear, paranoia, confusion, and anger--the more they kill--the more control Chara has over them. It's a reflection of when we give into our dark sides: It's harder to pull ourselves out of that darkness than it is to sink in, and the more we wade into it the harder it is to get out of it.
Now, I'm not saying that Frisk's a saint either. Even toward the end of the Pacifist run, Sans says doing the right thing doesn't make you innocent. I don't think Frisk is by a long shot to begin with, otherwise they wouldn't be able to kill at all. Frisk isn't evil, or innocent: They're human, and humans are destined to do wrong at times. But the same goes for the monsters in the game, even though they like to say they're filled "with compassion" alone. They have good and evil in them just as much as any other person, or else they wouldn't want genocide against the human race. ("You know, like, Bratty and Catty were so hyped for the destruction of humanity!!!
"B-But Frisk can reset, so that means they shouldn't kill anyone since they can't die!!" Yes, Frisk has a responsibility with their powers, but does that excuse all the times they were murdered in cold-blood? What if you had that power in real life and somebody shot or stabbed you because 'you wouldn't really die?' Would that be ok? Frisk can't die, but that doesn't mean that didn't feel the pain of death over and over again. It would've been torture. Putting that level of pain, terror, and anguish on someone--let alone a child... Anyone would break.
And that fragility is just the sort of thing someone like Chara would use to manipulate Frisk. If Frisk didn't have it in them to protect themselves by killing others, then Chara would take over their body and do it for them until, eventually, Frisk became so desensitized and gave so much into Chara that they lost their will to fight against them. Even though they continued to inhabit it, they're body would belong to Chara. Think back to the story of when Asriel absorbed Chara's soul: Asriel was the sort of person who would meekly let Chara do what they wanted--that was their level of faith in them combined with their own timid nature. Even though Chara was dead, Chara was able to still use Asriel's body after that were absorbed, and it took everything for Asriel to regain control with enough time to stop them from slaughtering humans on the Surface. It's the same kind of scenario.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think Chara's solely evil either, but they've given into their own dark side so much that they've been consumed by it--just the same as with Chara controlling Frisk. I think Chara genuinely meant well for monsterkind, even if they hated other humans, but Asriel "getting them killed" must've turned Chara against monsters too. "Why did you choose them over us? Why did you choose them over me? We could've freed everyone!" They probably felt betrayed, and that now they have no one to turn to.
Again though, you--the player--are not Frisk and you're not Chara. You have the ability to do both right and wrong, letting either your inner Frisk or Chara take control. And when you play the game, it's your job to act as a sort of conscience. Will you tell them to kill or will you tell them to show mercy to others?
Choosing to fight or kill, choosing to spare someone you know is only bound to keep trying to kill you or the people you love... It's complicated. It doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it fair, but that's life. The only simplicity of it all is that no matter who you kill and for whatever reason, it's still a horrible act and other people will suffer from that loss of life. Life is precious: The problem is that not everyone sees it that way. And if you're willing to let it slide that someone attempted murder, than you better be aware that even your worst enemy deserves that same forgiveness. You don't get to undermine someone else's life just because you're closer and know another person better. And if you're a killer, be aware that it only means your death is just as justified as the ones you've caused. If you've hurt or killed someone, nothing in this world can ever change that fact. But if you fell true regret, don't cling onto it: Even if nothing will ever make things right again, it doesn't have to stop you from being a better person.
Part 2: silyabeeodess.deviantart.com/a…
Dubbed by UndertaleComicTV here!
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Comments: 12
mewtwolegend [2020-07-08 13:59:09 +0000 UTC]
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Logi87 [2017-01-22 17:36:25 +0000 UTC]
I like your take on Chara and Frisk
At the end of the day, the cold facts about Chara can be interpreted in different ways and Chara being angry at Asriel and humans is justified.
As for your comic two parter: I like it
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SaintHeartwing [2017-01-15 14:52:35 +0000 UTC]
It's amazing to see someone else finally share my opinion about both Frisk, Chara, and the monsters. Chara's own upbringing was clearly biased, she hated the people that had hurt her, loved her family, and wanted to kill two birds with one stone, thinking it was okay to potentially put her brother in danger, to lie to her adopted parents about what had happened in the name of freeing monsters, and also hurting the people in the town that she hated. As despicable as I find her misanthropic attitude, I can understand it because children who are abused have a hard time comprehending right from wrong.
And Frisk, like Chara, is a child. They make bad decisions. They might even make reckless, dangerous ones that hurt people. But they're a CHILD. They deserve some slack. The adults in the Underground, the monsters, DO have the blood of innocent children on their hands, and kept trying to murder Frisk over and over. Even Paps technically knocked Frisk into unconsciousness three times and tossed them into a dog shed, they're the ONLY boss monster that doesn't potentially kill them. And Sans? The one who promises to keep an eyesocket out for you, pretty much only gives cryptic advice. And he literally only steps in when you're in the Judgment Hall to stop you if you're on the genocide route...and that's it. He doesn't stop you after Paps dies. He doesn't do it after seeing you wipe out all the monsters in Snowdin or Waterfall. Does he stop you after seeing Undyne, heroine of the Underground, lose TWICE?
...no. He literally just sits on his rear, waiting in the Hall. He doesn't go help Alphys evacuate folks. He doesn't try to stop you sooner.
The other monsters all have some guilt to endure. Alphys and her experiments. Mettaton's cold treatment of her and trying to murder Frisk mostly for his own sake of being a star in the human world. Undyne IGNORING your pleas for mercy, saying she refuses to show it to a mere child, even after seeing you save the life of an innocent kid. Asgore being responsible for killing the six children who came before. Toriel, for not doing more to stop the children from leaving, and who, instead of staying behind to convince Asgore to change his mind, essentially ran away and who only thinks "maybe if I destroy the door, it'll save this child's life" after six others die.
Now this doesn't EXCUSE Genocide. But to be honest, I always thought that at the very least, they could have APOLOGIZED to the poor kid for all they did. Especially when there's a good possibility they could have gotten out without human souls.
Think about it. In a neutral, pacifistic run, Frisk goes through the barrier without claiming a single soul. And the Barrier doesn't go down, since, after all, it takes SEVEN to shatter the thing. And he doesnt' absorb Asgore or Flowey's, Flowey doesn't have a soul and Asgore's goes bye bye when Flowey destroys it. But Frisk goes through the barrier anyway. So the implication is that a human could go through the barrier on their own. They only ASSUMED it took a human and monster sou because that's the only time they saw it happen before, with Chara and Asriel. If they'd tried to treat one of the humans that fell down nicely, and helped them get through the other side without harm, then perhaps the humans could have learned about the monsters and tried to get them out WITHOUT any children dying. After all, the monsters are an endangered species that can all do magic, so they're worth study, their money is in GOLD, their magic food is immensely useful and helpful, there'd be plenty to be gained from a partnership.
But the monsters allowed racism and their need to just get out to cloud their judgment. All of it could have been avoided had they themselves taken the merciful route. It's amazing that a CHILD acted more grown up than the entire underground.
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SilyaBeeodess In reply to SaintHeartwing [2017-01-29 23:57:19 +0000 UTC]
I agree completely. And when you talked more about them being children, it made me think of the song "Children Will Listen" from "Into the Woods." Chara obviously grew up with a bad life if we take what Asriel said into account, meaning that had all of those negative influences pushing them down a dark path. Then you have monsters preaching about how horrible humanity is and Chara growing up with that--and possibly seeing themselves as just another horrible blot on the world that needed to be erased as a result, which could be way they so readily committed suicide and sacrificed themselves so Asriel would have their soul and they could claim six more on the surface. I think Chara would've viewed that monsters like Toriel and Asgore wouldn't have it in them to do what they felt needed to be done--in this case eradicating humanity--so that only pushed them further into action. When Asriel didn't want to and instead fought against it, that must've sent Chara over the edge.
So you have Chara absorbing everyone's hatred--both humans' and monsters'--who ends up hating everyone, including maybe themselves, as a result. Then you get Asriel, who didn't show an ounce of hatred for humanity just as his parents didn't... until his death. Then Asriel, now Flowey, took up a "killed or be killed" philosophy and treated everyone as just another piece to be used as he was nearly used by Chara. Finally we get Frisk, who nearly gets killed by Flowey the very first time they meet anyone in the Underground and is subsequently attacked by everyone else they meet besides Toriel. How should any of these kids be able to take up a gentle, pacifistic nature when all they're met with is hatred? There needs to be someone in their lives--like Toriel was for Frisk at the start of the game, and like how she and Asgore were for Asriel before that--to show them not to hold onto prejudice and instead meet people with kindness. Essentially, its the game's way of saying that adults need to step up and be that kind of good-influence or else the hatred that we see all around us is never going to stop: It'll be a never-ending loop.
I actually have a small theory though regarding how Frisk was able to escape from the Underground without claiming a soul. Now, a monster's soul we already know shatters pretty quickly after their deaths, and as you said Frisk wasn't able to claim a soul to escape with. It was also mentioned at one point in the game during the retelling of the events of the war that it was pretty much impossible for a human to claim the soul of a monster. However, human's souls last outside of their physical bodies. We have Frisk's soul. We have the souls of the six previous humans who were killed by monsters and then escaped after being absorbed by Flowey. There's still one soul though that never moved on: Chara's. In the genocide route, we know that Chara is possessing Frisk. Even in the pacifist route though, Frisk still gets dreams and memories that could only belong to Chara, such as when they fall asleep in Toriel's house and fall into the dump after being chased by Undyne--alluding to the fact that Chara is still with them. Even at the end of the game at the True Pacifist ending, you have Flowey telling Chara to "let Frisk go" and not force them to reset.
So what if Chara's soul could count as a substitution to the monster soul Frisk would've needed in order to escape? A human's soul is more powerful than a monster's anyway, so in terms of strength it would qualify.
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SaintHeartwing In reply to SilyaBeeodess [2017-01-30 12:32:34 +0000 UTC]
That is an intriguing possibility, except for one little problem. We're told over and over that humans cannot absorb other human souls. So how can Chara be ensouled within? Especially when they're supposedly only awakened by violence? So how would they be with him in a neutral pacifistic run?
There is of course one other possibility I always considered. Chara was the player. Given new life. This way they're "with" Frisk and yet not with them. But even then that doesn't fully make sense when you consider the genocide route...
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SilyaBeeodess In reply to SaintHeartwing [2017-01-30 14:05:00 +0000 UTC]
I don't think Chara's soul was absorbed so much as it dwells inside the same body with Frisk--kind of forcing them to accept it. Plus, Frisk wouldn't have to take Chara's soul since Chara themselves has the ability to possess people. At the beginning, Frisk is a clean slate, so we don't know what they've done on the surface, and Chara states that they were attracted to Frisk's determination as having woken them up. They might have been violent, or if not then, Frisk also has the option of beating characters down without killing them and still being a 'pacifist.' Therefore, in the game, I see it as both Frisk's and Chara's soul's are fighting for control over the same body. During the pacifist and neutral runs, Frisk still would have the most control since their determination still overrules Chara's. Their willpower is greater. However, the more Frisk gives into Chara's wishes in the genocide run, the more their own will erodes--so much to the point that Chara can eventually take over Frisk's body almost completely when Frisk gives in and offers their soul in order to reset the world at the genocide ending.
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SaintHeartwing In reply to SilyaBeeodess [2017-01-30 14:34:38 +0000 UTC]
I suppose that's possible.
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SilyaBeeodess In reply to SaintHeartwing [2017-01-30 21:45:29 +0000 UTC]
I think there might be more to determination than we know, at least as far as magical abilities are concerned. Each of the other souls had different abilities and traits according to whatever quality they took on, so it would make sense for determination to have its own signature magical abilities as well--besides only one soul with the most determination being able to reset. We see part of this in 'red attacks,' which allow us to see where moves are coming from ahead of time, so I think a Red Soul's magical abilities would at least continue to follow that theme of time-based magic. This might also tie in with Chara's ability to possess people, since a couple of souls have more than one set of abilities, like green souls using both healing and defensive magic.
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Leafybella [2017-01-15 13:06:25 +0000 UTC]
This is the way I see things too. Regret, fear, hatred - they all hold us back from being better than we are, no matter what sentient creature one is. We simply need to let it all go & regain common sense. There are no excuses for hurting others intentionally & vise versa & there will always be the option to do the right thing, even if you have to personally sacrifice something. It is our choices that make us who we are & this game shows us that. The only issue is that in this game, the monsters appear to be sugar-coated. You kill everyone, sure. That's bad. What I don't get is, why do they all act like they're innocent in the end? Sans could've done something much earlier, Toriel could've remained to help Asgore revoke the promise of getting 7 human souls & waging war on humanity, Asgore & Toriel both could've tried to find another way, everyone else could have chosen to not to hurt you simply because they're afraid of or angry at you - it's all so hypocritical. Which leads me to not being surprised at Chara hating the world as much as they did at that point. Humans were imperfect, Monsters were imperfect, the World was imperfect & they couldn't accept that. It was this imperfection that caused their suffering & so they gave in to their loathing, their negativity & decided that it was a good idea to teach you a lesson. To get back at you & destroy a world that they believed didn't deserve to exist simply because they experienced most of the bad that came out of it. It was easier to not change, to be stubborn & take the blows of experiences as they came, to sink lower & lower into the dark abyss of unforgiving bitterness that helped to keep them standing. To act out the part of a villain & bring karma to all who deserved it.
Truth is, Chara didn't know enough. For they were imperfect themselves. & they loved it. Relished the emptiness that the negativity left in them. Wanted to feel less & less because it was like a safe haven between light & dark, it kept them no longer needing to worry about the way they felt & exist in a way that peacefully preserved their being. Even still, that was just a distraction. They wanted to erase the world so that they no longer had to deal with everyone else too. To show you what you made them into. What the world made them into. & I can't even begin to imagine how much that hurts.
They weren't in the right mind to make such an important decision. However, every story needs opposition in order to make the ending worth the struggle. This game tried to be ambiguous, but it wasn't quite close enough. The main endings were too clear-cut. There needed to be more choices & futures crafted by those choices. Monsters were trapped angels in grey & humans were the saintly devils who trapped them. Both gave in to their fear. Both were less than perfect. Both deserved what they sow. But neither of them got karma. Instead, all the blood & dust shed ends with a child & their choices. Their mercy saves everyone from their own darkened hearts. Even so, they never end up trying to change themselves. & so the cycle will continue for all time. Their characters will always be imperfect, because they didn't try hard enough.
That is what I dislike about Undertale's story. It shows that it's fine to be imperfect, but in a way that you don't need to change. You do. You really do need to change yourself. As much as you can & in a way that helps yourself along with others. Never allow the same mistakes to occur ever again. It's like how people say that it's okay to have a mental health issue & that others should cater to you for that, but they leave out the part where the person who has the issue also needs to try to keep their relationships standing. We never notice any change in the way the characters work in the Undertale ending. We never see them trying to improve upon themselves, they simply accept life & move on, remaining stubborn to change as Chara had. As long as they remain the same, the threat of constantly repeating mistakes remains an issue. & that is equal to the act of insanity, where you repeat your actions without changing to get a different outcome. You expect something different to happen, even though you simply act the same. I think the whole resetting may have caused them to subconsciously act like this.
Anyway, that's the end of my rambling. Time to carry on. Thank you for making this masterpiece. cx
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SilyaBeeodess In reply to Leafybella [2017-01-15 13:26:39 +0000 UTC]
*insert slow clap here*
You have no idea how much I love this, especially the more in-depth look on Chara. I couldn't agree more. As for the choices the monsters made, I agree with that too, and I don't think any of them are completely innocent. Even Toriel, who tries her best, has her own faults as well simply because she is just as much a person as the rest of us. Though I would say she's of the better ones. The only issue is that the choices are complicated as well. We can always act on our own, like Toriel did to try and stop humans from going deeper into the underground. We can control ourselves, but we can't control other people. I don't think Asgore wanted anyone to die--if you kill Flowey in a Neutral route and then reset, Asgore even commits suicide if you try to spare him to force you to take his soul--anymore than Toriel, but his subjects did. However, if he didn't follow the will of the people it was likely that he'd lose what influence he had over them--including the power to subdue their hatred as he had attempted over the years by trying to wait out collecting seven souls instead of just killing the first human, crossing the barrier, and gathering another six. It wasn't the right choice by any means, but he thought he was doing the best in his situation as their king. When Toriel tried to make a law that all humans who fell into the Underground would be treated as friends, she was overthrown if the player killed monsters and Undyne took over--if she's alive--to plot out monsterkind's intent on revenge. Because of other people's hatred, it only would result in further pain--and the people that didn't want to hurt anyone ended up suffering as a result.
I like to take a quote from "Gnomeo and Juliet" (cartoon, kiddy movie, I know, lol ) for these cases: "Other people's hate destroyed my love, and I couldn't do anything about it. But you, you can." It's another flaw in our world in that people need to stand together against evil in order to win over it, because meekly letting it happen and just hoping someone else fixes the problem doesn't solve anything. We can make a difference if we're all willing to do the right thing.
Thank you for your added notes, and I'm glad you like the comic.
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Leafybella In reply to SilyaBeeodess [2017-01-15 13:57:15 +0000 UTC]
Glad you enjoyed reading it. cx
Yeah. Toriel is nice, but she reminds me of my mom in that she allows her feelings to cloud her judgement. I guess Chara may have also picked up on that behaviour. From both goat-parents. Hence why I don't tend to look up to anyone. Everyone is imperfect & therefore, have flaws we may be unintentionally learning from. Still, if I ever do end up idolising someone, I can only hope that I only use their best aspects to learn from & not the underdeveloped sides of their character. Seeing as I'm not a psychologist & I don't know everything though, it's bound to be an imperfect absorption of the results of others characters. A seemingly impossible to end cycle of imperfection. Still, we try, for the sake of making our lives easier to deal with. Even if I were a psychologist, reality is a realm with endless possibilities & all the sciences might be inaccurate to the knowledge obtained from most other places in the universe, meaning that everything we know is capable of having their fundamentals completely debunked.
Gnomeo & Juliet. It was an alright kid's movie. Had a different type of humour to the original story. Was never a big fan of it, to be honest, I think it's one of Shakespeare's least impressive works. So many plot-holes... Anyway, that quote seems to fit right in here. That plastic pink flamingo was so weird. Standing together against evil is scarce nowadays, considering we're generally run by greedy people who only have power through controlling the masses with their chemicals & toxins produced in everyday products that we use as essentials in surviving. Our food, our clothes, our house, our utilities, anything & everything you can think of, even the air & the planet is beginning to die off because of it. People feel like shit everyday because their bodies are hypersensitive from being exposed to a constant barrage of these things & more that I haven't even mentioned. That's just scratching the surface of how much we're being controlled. & all this for a currency that won't matter once we're all dead. Nobody's fighting back of course, because they either don't know, don't care, feel a certain way against it, or have been silenced. I mean, the Venus project is certainly helping to take back the earth from these bastards, but without people pitching in, a dark future of contamination & a rotten world awaits us. Only we can do this. If we fail, we experience the result of our actions. A result that we all saw coming.
You're welcome, it was fun to read & write about this kind of thing. I don't tend to be able to talk about this stuff much. That's what I like about this fandom, even if nice & understanding people may be few & far in-between. c:
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