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tarkheki In reply to ??? [2007-11-06 02:56:13 +0000 UTC]

THank you so much for that sweet comment!
In all honesty, when I was learning this style to begin with, it WAS very "How do I DO it?!" There are no books or texts that teach you, but you have to learn with someone and learn hard... somehow, it almost become a subconscious part of you that begins to learn. Like your soul is the one learning, and you are just moving your hand. I'm so glad I can actually do this!

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XELOTEN-XELET In reply to tarkheki [2007-11-06 22:13:29 +0000 UTC]

hey

you always say this but no one ever taught me and I am self taught. I know my art does not fit into any one particular tribe and is a mix of many different ones ( just like me ) I also know I have my own style in there and I was never good at taking orders from others and I enjoy learning things on my own better. I just draw what comes naturally to me and I can see these shapes in all the different animals

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tarkheki In reply to XELOTEN-XELET [2007-11-07 01:36:08 +0000 UTC]

Well, in all honesty, my "training" was near pish-posh. I had a teacher for like... 2 weeks? And even then, not a professional one.. so whatever I learned comes form lots of observation, and consistent asking other artists when I meet them. I had to ask SOMEONE regarding the dos and do nots... so I sought people out for LONG periods of time to at least get that! XD

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XELOTEN-XELET In reply to tarkheki [2007-11-07 18:15:44 +0000 UTC]

Well there is actually some books and I know most are not accurate but there is a series that I believe was made by a guy who had lots of help by many of the famous/great artist of today ( Hunt Brothers for example) but I cant think of the name of the book right now however I did use the book often when I started out. Also there is schools for this style, I think there is a carving school somewhere here on the island and that one link I sent you about that other school, but in both these cases I believe they only accept native students. I also know of situations where Native Artists have come into schools ( elementary, high school and university) and taught this style to students. And yes it is not always taught right in the schools and there are some good examples on DA but I think the bad examples are from non-native art teachers telling their students to make something Indian/tribal as an assignment. Right now we are trying to set up our own school and we will be teaching Coast Salish art in classes ( well I sure hope we do)

So when you say this is not taught in books or schools I think you are dismissing a lot of work being done by many modern artist of this style.

But I do understand why you always say those things because there are many more ways to approach this art the wrong way especially when people try and learn from the internet and there are problems with learning through books and classroom settings.

Sure it would be great if the old way of master and apprentice was still more common but that option is not always available in modern times because masters are rare to come by and both the teacher and student would have to have lots of spare time where in this society so much depends on wage labor limiting the available time needed.

There are always many paths to learning something and you are the perfect example of someone approaching the traditional style the right way because you always show respect for the art and are motivated to always learn more which I believe many people lack and do not understand about cultural art. So in many cases it is not the teaching methods tools such as books but the students attitude towards the subject matter, which is probably the biggest difference in teaching methods between the old and the new is the teaching of respect. The other main problems I have found with the books/classes is that they only teach you the style of art and not the stories behind them so you only get half the art lesson .

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tarkheki In reply to XELOTEN-XELET [2007-11-07 21:03:23 +0000 UTC]

You are right- I have a very big trouble when trying to express my intentions, and so it's nice that I have you to call out my indescrepincies!
What I meant was pretty much what you wrote in your 3rd paragraph onward.
Unfortunately, people don't go out of their way to check for authenticity, or backgorund on even the books they buy. They are looking for a quick way to just "know the stuff" or "become the artist" and becuase of that they are willing to accept any source of information. This lazyness on thier behlaf causes a lot of false information, bad results, and a lot of cultural inpropriety. It's this "immediate momentary fulfillment" that most westerns have (as a result of our current societies) that make them think that many things can be little input, maximum output. Hence, they don't bother thinking about the reprocutions of what they are doing, and just do it becuase they want to. It's a selfish way of life that I come into contact many times in regard to my Medicine Learning as well. The most common answer I get it is "well, I'm from (insert US state here) and we don't have (insert NWP Coast Band here) around here, so I can't". And this refers to me telling them that if they want to learn about NWP or any Native Band, they should not only read books (as most of those are biased, written by the European colonists that described things from their point of view), but get in touch with the actual people themselves. And there, becuase of the fact they have to put in effort in a long run, they fold like a house of cards. All they want to do is find that one book, one answer, one thing they have to do in order to be called a "master" in the craft or knowledge, and that's all the investment they are willing to put forth into it.
My MM told me once "The more you want something, the more obstacles will stand in your way. Everything and everyone. You must ignore these things, and continue on your path. Your achievements are only equal in value to the burden you have to endure to get them." He told me this right before I left to my first-ever trip to Vancouver BC last year. He knew that many things would pop up stopping me, and he told me this. And it's one of the things i believe with people today.

So yes, you ARE right in what you said. All of it. Especially when you said that it's about the student wanting to learn more, and continue learning and investing. But this is my Wolf Torek coming out. I'm very selfish when it comes to things I consider sacred- wolves were always known to be the most Supernatural of animals. Yet they didn't tend to give their secrets to man very easily or at all. Their medicines and their knowledge stayed with them mostly, and only a handful was given when a human impressed them- acting more loving, humble, and being worthy of the medicine knowledge. In fact, most of the Medicine acquired from the Wolves were either becuase the poeple were wolves themselves, lived with wolves, or helped save a wolf's life. So you can see I am rigid when it comes to poeple as well. I'm rigid and doubtful of people's intentions. XD

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XELOTEN-XELET In reply to tarkheki [2007-11-07 22:01:04 +0000 UTC]

Did you just say it’s nice when I point out these things? Most people get offended

Yea I know exactly what you mean with people who want to learn everything so fast and often skip many steps along the way. I think the average amount of time to get the experience to become a master in this style is 25 years. Lots of people just seem like they experiment and make one or two pictures then stop and often many people think this is an easier style then it looks and people have left me messages here saying how nice and simple my pictures are when actually lots of time and thought went into them.

Your mm sounds like a very wise man and I would have loved an opportunity to have met him.

Yea I am doubtful of peoples intentions also and I knew you say these things for the protection of what is sacred and that is why you are one of the good ones I still think it is a good response because as you said if there is more of an investment then that will keep away some of the bad ones, I was just pointing out that there is some books and classes it is you just have do more then read a book. it is true if these people who want to learn only use a book then they will be doing it wrong

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tarkheki In reply to XELOTEN-XELET [2007-11-07 22:46:00 +0000 UTC]

It IS nice! But you an I are like-minded. I guess the truth is bothersome to most. Becuase it means they have to DO somehting about it. Where as everyone goes around saying the "politically correct" phrases that earn them a fake smile and nod.

Oh yes. Yes yes and YES! I cannot stand the people saying "It's simple but nice". They think that realism = hard, and design/style = easy. I used to correct them by saying it's not the style the determines the hardship of the image, but the thought process behind it. All the artists which draw wolf after wolf in realism aren't being challenged, nor the image any more "difficult" becuase it's what they are so used to drawing, they an be half awake and fly "autopilot" to do it. Where as some styles and images take days of thought and preparation behind them.
And you know what? once again you are right- even in ANY art form, poeple aren't "masters" right out of college or after drawing 2 pictures. Even in our industry, someone will catch a Senior position after 10 years in the business (of course, after proving that their work is worth while) and that usually is on top of 20+ years of practice and schooling. I don't see why others think that other styles don't demand this kind of dedication either.

Dude, if you ever get a chance to go to Toronto, make sure you have it preplanned at least a month ahead of time, and I can book you (or you can book yourself) and appointment with him. He's the coolest 70+ year old man I know!

And I am in total agreement of your last statement. high five me.

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Aish89 In reply to tarkheki [2007-11-06 05:42:01 +0000 UTC]

And it's amazing way of drawing

Keep it up, I'll be watching carefully

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tarkheki In reply to Foxfeather248 [2007-11-06 02:53:51 +0000 UTC]

Thank you so much! I feel as though I cannot take ALL the credit though... after all, it was shown to me, I did not create it!

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