wwatson1970 [2015-07-26 18:53:08 +0000 UTC]

1.  If I had to choose one, it will be DC.  Out of the new 52 line-up, Wonder Woman did a better job at introducing more creative ideas without radically changing the characters.  The series was set up more like Neil Gaimen's Sandman, than a typical "catch the purse-thief" wrestling match.  I also enjoyed it because the motivations, cruelty, and behaviors of the characters were more believable and easy to understand.  With other superhero comics, I honestly ask why superheroes get up in the morning, fight crime, and give politically correct statements.  Good storytelling doesn't require backstories, but good character development and storytelling encourages readers to look for them.

2.  The format doesn't matter.  The quality of work does.  Many thought young adult books were dead until Harry Potter came along.

3.  Yes.  The ones I like are Mind Mgmt, Locke and Key, Saga, and Morning Glories.

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joachim-hagen [2015-07-24 14:49:00 +0000 UTC]

1. I'm a huge batman fan though I cannot get along with the New 52. After more than 30 years of reading comics I already know most of the story patterns. If new characters in perhaps limited series - like Manhunter - open a door to less restricted storys, so be it.

2. No.

3. No, although "Locke and Key" is great. "The Red Star" was great at the beginning.

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StriderSoryu [2015-07-24 01:04:21 +0000 UTC]

While Marvel and DC have their place, its like you say. Hard for new people to get into, without reading stuff spread over different issues.

The great thing is that indie creator owned comics are a better way forward. They might not have the big movie ticket backing and advertising but there's good stuff out there.

If you want different tales, look at the smaller comic publishers like Dark Horse, Boom, Image, Devils Due etc.

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jlane409 [2015-07-23 18:24:52 +0000 UTC]

The top image is mis labeled, the person on it just did a re-color, the actual artist is Joe Madureira.  it should be listed as such.

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castformrain [2015-07-23 01:41:15 +0000 UTC]

Really well-done article, I agree 100% with pretty much everything said here.

Especially about the universes becoming too confused and complicated. I tried to pick up the New 52 Teen Titans, but I just couldn't follow it since it seemed like every other issue required me to pick up another specific issue from some other random simultaneously-running comic series to understand the plot.

Also I'd thought that the New 52 would be a great gateway into superhero comics for me (I hadn't followed them much prior to New 52) but that didn't really turn out to be the case. Lots of The New 52 comics aren't written in a way that allow new readers to understand what's going on, they still assume you know a lot about the backstory and about characters from the comic's previous run. Honestly they just feel like an excuse for authors to tweak and rewrite the origins and specifics of a few superheroes and then just keep moving full speed ahead. And of course, all of this only worsened the already-confusing experience.

So long story short, yeah, I agree with everything in the article and then some.

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MrCrackerpants [2015-07-22 21:38:18 +0000 UTC]

Another thing that bothers me about modern comic books is that they're too over-crowded with ads and sometimes very boring dialogue. I'd like less ads, more pictures and more action. That's what we all get comic books for, right? Action, story, the art?

Anyways, techgnotic makes excellent points. Creators really should be the ones to decide what to do with characters, not some corporate over-head. I mean, it's fine if a supervisor helps them out (trust me, I love to talk about stories and ideas with others, and getting opinions) but authors really do need the jurisdiction when it comes down to single comics.

One day I want to be an independent writer, I just don't know how I'll do it, that's all. But I do know that I'd probably want creative control over characters and I'd love to partner up with someone to write the comics. It's better that way.

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GwynConawayArt [2015-07-22 15:22:42 +0000 UTC]

Excellent summary! I'm not a comic creator but know a whole bunch thisbis great insight

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BuffaloTrident [2015-07-22 11:59:28 +0000 UTC]

This was a very interwsting read and i couldnt agree more.
As someone working in their own story i have been studying japanese comics(manga) rather than western as it is actually a stable industry thier while in amerixa and the western world in general its just a mess. Marvel and dc would be gone if it wasnt for hollywood.
Thats not to say that there isnt great content from marvel and dc but it is very hard to get into it because where do you start?
This comes from the stories having no true beginning and no true end.
Thats just my own thoughts on the matter

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Sulirium [2015-07-22 07:38:49 +0000 UTC]

One of the better articles I've seen on dA so far. Quite thorough, with very valid points. It's good to know that the saturation of Marvel/DC universes is also bothering comic readers. I'm not one myself, but I do see similar issues with what they are doing with the movie/tv industry. I totally agree with letting the story have an actual ending, but they won't let it, characters are constantly revamped, even killed off and then revived in parallel universes. It's insane! Everything dies, why not fictional characters damn it?! I find it unhealthy to have the same content bloated up so it can fill more products and thus sell more. It's terribly stagnating to have most of the story-telling dominated by Marvel/DC, which is disguised by the amount of products they have made, but they are all part of the same thing, there's no real diversity here. And they are given way too much attention in detriment of other options. Some of their stuff is good, yes, but it's become excessive, feeding this Marvel/DC machinery into monstrous proportions. Maybe it will fall by its own weight eventually, but it might drag us all down with it too... Sometimes I feel like these characters/universes will become mythology and that's it, but then I remember that they are based on actual mythology, they are limited interpretations of something way bigger, vaster, more interesting and diverse than them. Reading this article reminded me of another one with similar observations regarding movies: Marvel is killing the popcorn movie       

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spaceskeleton [2015-07-21 12:49:01 +0000 UTC]

If mainstream comics suck (and exist only as an exuse for these ridiculous movies to be made) and people are moving on to indie creations and webcomics, it's hardly a problem. It's just progress. The industry is doing fine, with or without marvel and dc.

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iamkathybrown [2015-07-21 04:41:16 +0000 UTC]

I just read webcomics. Free and independently owned. The quality varies widely though and sometimes they just stop or show no signs of ending.

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Elleman1 [2015-07-21 04:24:51 +0000 UTC]

Worked in a comic shop back in the 80's. Even then I didn't buy everything; prices were rising, quality was falling, and too many gimmicks (Secret War and all of its related issues, anyone?). And more of the same as time went on...
I think that both creator-owned and copyright laws which favor creativity (instead of huge corporations) are both great ideas. Will it save the industry? Well, you're not going to get copyright laws which favor true creativity from the current government policies. And I'm none too sure the industry hasn't already expired and is simply having a last few death-throws.
Personally, the last comic I bought was an Astro City years back. Then I got the TPB's of PS238. Nothing since... But I read about 60 web comics and about 50 manga online weekly... Am I ever going back to buying comics in a store? Maybe, if they're great (not the grim and gritty stuff they do now, I get enough of that in real life) and I can get them for a buck... Otherwise, no, not going to happen...

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TheMessedHetalian [2015-07-21 02:02:05 +0000 UTC]

ATTENTION ARTISTS

Copyright law is about to change

For more than a year Congress has been holding hearings for the drafting of a brand new US Copyright Act. At its heart is the return of Orphan Works

What does this mean for artists? it means it will make it easier for infringers to steal artists works and harder for people who are making or trying to make a living out of art more difficult. This will effect every artist and all the artwork they have created, are creating, and will be created. Corporates, Big businesses, and publishers want this to pass to make money out off artists works without paying us artists for past, current, and future artwork.

Basic Facts About The Law Being Proposed

- “The Next Great Copyright Act” would replace all existing copyright law.

- It would void our Constitutional right to the exclusive control of our work.

- It would “privilege” the public’s right to use our work.


- It would “pressure” you to register your work with commercial registries.


- It would “orphan” unregistered work.


- It would make orphaned work available for commercial infringement by “good faith” infringers.

- It would allow others to alter your work and copyright these “derivative works” in their own names.

- It would affect all visual art: drawings, paintings, sketches, photos, etc.; past, present and future; published and unpublished; domestic and foreign.

** Ways to stop this or preventing these changes from happening**

> > > > > > > DEADLINE IS NEXT THURSDAY: JULY 23, 2015 < < < < < <

- share, this post, spread it for other artists to take notice and action.

- You can submit a letter on how this law can be an issue for you as an artist here: copyright.gov/policy/visualwor…

- Non-U.S. artists can email their letters to the attention of:

Catherine Rowland
Senior Advisor to the Register of Copyrights
U.S. Copyright Office
crowland@loc.gov

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sterlingtallman [2015-07-20 22:33:41 +0000 UTC]

Definitely onto something here.  Yes, I agree with the premise.  I would gladly have seen my original Xmen retired, then the next crew retired, then a new team, or even a new title (e.g. "New Mutants" or X-Factor or something) than continue on with constantly re-imagining the same heros and villains.  I disagree with the details (some new heros and characters have been added since Wolverine and Deadpool) but the idea remains (no new titles).   Take new risks; create new characters.  I have enjoyed every John Byrne title and story he ever wrote and illustrated, and many of the ones he merely illustrated.  Next Men was a great concept, in the line of this discussion.

Creator-owned ensures the movement of the industry.  I would gladly retire the old titles once they get imagined into movies and/or other media forms.  I read constantly of new, independent stuff.  I like two manga, Blade of the Immortal and Gunsmith Cats (English tranlsated names, I'm sure) and I just followed the Alex + Ada series with great interest, although the art was understated and left me underwhelmed.  I followed Spawn in the 90's, WaRP graphics Elfquest in the 80's, and other many Image comics and Dark Horse titles.  Most recently, I enjoyed the series A Princess of Mars, based on the characters intorduced by Edgar Rice Burroughs in the book of the same name (and used by Disney to make an underappreciated film called John Carter of Mars).

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neodragon39 [2015-07-20 19:36:07 +0000 UTC]

I think DC is a step forward and two steps back as far the new 52 is concerned. The new model that I tend to think works really well that I think indie comics really helped pushed forward into mainstream adoption was the notion of having a variable price point depending on the amount of pages per individual comic and then a TPB for $15-20 and a large omnibus for collectors' for $80-150. This also had the added bonus of numbering TPBs meaning people (such as myself) can buy those to easily catch up if they're not only driving sales but also accessibility.

The problem with the new 52 though, is that by adopting the model that you've suggested of Salon with one off pieces a lot of people have been turned off by the lack of character development and complex storytelling which is especially who have invested a lot of time and money into certain characters only to see them revert back to their earlier selves and rehash the same stories over and over again! 

I have to confess surprise that you didn't mention Image as their mainstream enough now with the overwhelming success of the Walking Dead, Saga, Artifacts, Hack/Slash, Witchblade, the Darkness, Morning Glories, the Magdalena, etc. that we really ought to be calling them the big three instead of the big two as they're now back on top as the third biggest publisher.

In addition for those of us who grew up in the 90s, Image quite frankly pioneered the notion of creator owned content in the 90s and while I haven't bought anything from the big 2 in decades now, I continue to support Image wholeheartedly! Cheers!

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Ravis [2015-07-20 17:10:07 +0000 UTC]

I personally stopped buying comics cause they felt overpriced, story pacing were almost too forced to try to fit everything in one book and the worst crime in my eyes is the bait n switch: they Hire someone else to do an amazing cover and the artwork inside is totally different style or just drawn poorly

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ChimeraDragonfang [2015-07-20 11:56:07 +0000 UTC]

#1.) I don't read much Marvel or DC stuff anyway, so I have no strong feelings one way or the other. New characters and story ideas could be great if they were in their own stand-alone universes completely separate from the tangled, muddled messes that are the big two's central continuities. As much as I may want to read the adventures of a particular existing character, the storylines are threaded through so many separate titles that it's next to impossible to just jump in somewhere and know what's going on without needing to read five years of backstory woven through multiple books. It's daunting and intimidating and expensive, so I just go "Nope" and avoid the whole mess. Sometimes I'll pick up a trade paperback collecting a complete story arc (i.e. Batman's The Long Halloween or Knightfall saga) because that way I know I have the whole tale right there and won't have to go hunting for two hundred other books and then also figure out in which order I need to read them all. I like what 2000AD did/is doing with Dredd, compiling the whole thing into a series of omnibus books that go in chronological order. Nice and easy to find and get into, without worrying that you're missing some vital piece.

#2.) See above, re: I don't care one way or another about Marvel or DC's main comics offerings. I enjoy the movies for what they are and the fact that even if all of Marvel's superhero movies are interconnected, it's a lot easier to get up to speed on about a dozen films than it is to read several years' worth of comic books.

#3.) I've contributed to the Kickstarter campaigns of two independent comics so far: Christopher Baldwin's Spacetrawler and Dave and Liz Lillie's incredible Dreamkeepers saga (they're on dA too: Dreamkeepers ). Dreamkeepers is amazing and I encourage everyone to go check it out. It may be all colourful and kind of cutesy-looking at first glance, but the first graphic novel opens with a ritual murder-sacrifice to summon demoic forces, and just gets darker from there, while still maintaining a humourous, lighthearted bent. The first three volumes can be read for free over on their website, and Vol.4 is out later this year. (Dave has also written an in-depth look at the current state of the comics industry on the Vivid Creations blog over here , which touches on similar points as this article, but with much more detail, history and analysis.)

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setoman1 [2015-07-20 08:41:57 +0000 UTC]

Don't care. Manga is better.

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JIMBO8472 [2015-07-20 05:24:08 +0000 UTC]

I was never into American comics all that much, I prefer comics done by just one person.

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Mace121 [2015-07-20 05:05:06 +0000 UTC]

We need a reboot of Arm-Fall-Off Boy. Anyone expected that?

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RaptorRed79 [2015-07-20 04:17:41 +0000 UTC]

Hmm!  This is a tricky topic to comment on.  Personally, yes!  I do find many of the mainstream characters of DC and Marvel to have become stale and over used in the last few years.  However i have noticed some poster below me mention Image comics, Darkhorse, and IDW, which do have some interesting stories and original characters.  But they have also had so many failures as well Image comics is one company I am familiar with since i read several of their titles back in the mid 90's.  Gen13, Wildcats, Team 7, Wet Works, and of course Spawn, and sadly Spawn is the only one that seems to have survived.  

The comic book industry, like any industry dose need to try new ideas to stay competitive in today's market.  Prices are getting higher, the stories do seem to be stretched out over more books, with what seems like more adds then actual story.  So I do think that New characters, and story lines should be explored.

 In honesty I have been for the last 10 years buying more Manga graphic novels then comic books.  Mostly due to a More Complete Story in one shot.  Rather than buying one 32 paged comic book for $5.99 (average price around here) that is mostly adds for products I really do not care about.  I am willing to pay $14.99 (average Manga price) for a 100 page manga that may have 4 pages of adds at the end of the book, and it will also include a couple of mini stories, mostly for comical fun.

It can be argued that just copying the Japanese model for comic sales may or may not be a good thing for the industry.  The simple fact is that the industry is there to make Money, plain and simple, and the North American system most likely will not change as long as the companies are making bank.  Sadly this is problem across all forms of industry.

I would like to see more creativity in the industry and maybe people just need to give the new heroes and villains a chance.  We always seem to follow back to what has already been create-ted and change is never easy.  But if we the consumer don't at least try new things.  Then sadly NOTHING will change.  I have excepted that my favorite comic series (G.I.JOE)  will never be as I remember it.  It has changed and i have moved on in search of newer series and story lines.

I know this is most likely going to be seen as some "Morons" long arced rant, but I felt that maybe I just need to get what I have said off my chest.

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johnchalos [2015-07-20 03:05:49 +0000 UTC]

Why is your solution to emulate Japan instead of the American independents? I think, really, you're ignoring a lot of the major titles at Image when you claim the independents are just like Marvel and DC.

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Legendary41 [2015-07-20 02:09:33 +0000 UTC]

The problem with the comic industry is tha it tells the same story over and over. Even creator owned comics do the same is why most never really get picked up or rise another level. Needs a change. Of game.

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Tsonchi [2015-07-20 01:57:00 +0000 UTC]

No.

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nstsw [2015-07-20 01:00:32 +0000 UTC]

If not I may just take it to viz anime and start an anime/ comic or something

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nstsw [2015-07-20 00:59:22 +0000 UTC]

Is it just me or does it seem like the manga seem to have taken the place of comics. I know that I used to pay viz anime for manga and I got yu gi oh cards and everything from it... Why don't they do something like this ? I'm currently working on a character for one of these 2 companies and this concerns me...what if people can't see the hard work I've done that would suck if u ask me

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Slyrr [2015-07-20 00:37:06 +0000 UTC]

As long as the current crop of writers and editors continue their trend of using comic books to push their political/social issues, the comic book industry will continue it's downward spiral.  Comic books are supposed to be about heroes and villains engaged in epic battles of good vs. evil.  Now political activists are engaged in some kind of p($$ing contest to see who can make their characters/franchises as gay as possible.  Suddenly every 'reboot' is nothing more than a veiled excuse to re-write the history of existing characters so they're gay, or flirting with being gay.

The editors and writers may think that's 'cool', but it isn't.  It's gauche.  It betrays them as small-minded simpletons who think the only way they can promote what 'they' think is right is to force Superman and Spiderman to adopt their personal political preferences.  Whether it's making Spiderman shake hands with Obama, or making Superman 'renounce' his US citizenship, or making Jean Grey actually use her telepathic powers to try and browbeat Iceman into turning gay - today's writers and editors are using superheroes as puppets in a manner that would have made the Puppet Master jealous.

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ImagineCloudNine [2015-07-19 21:48:07 +0000 UTC]

I just stumbled upon this article by accident and I am very glad I did, this article definitely has a lot of good points, that I agree with one hundred percent . Good job. 😀

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ThoseAmericanGirls [2015-07-19 20:43:20 +0000 UTC]

This is SO GOOD, we say this & peeps act like we dont make scents yo LOL. We 100% agree w/u except screw DC & Marvel, just do ur own comix & cartunes yo.

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proteanDavid [2015-07-19 20:28:37 +0000 UTC]

I agree 100%. One of the main issue I have with a lot of US mainstream media is the willingness to drag the stories on forever. I love Batman and The Simpsons but both of those stories should have ended years ago. Even the true greats of Lord of the Rings and Dune the stories stop and characters die and stay dead. Villians change and evolve. Heroes change and evolve. I love heroic archetypes but I want variety in my tales.

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Atena100 [2015-07-19 12:53:07 +0000 UTC]

I like

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KidGalactus [2015-07-19 06:06:25 +0000 UTC]

Kind of silly. 

There is no shortage of novel ideas, or interesting business practices on the independent side of things. It sounds like  you are just sick of Marvel and DC. Which is fair.


It is probably accurate to call them creatively bankrupt. 

Hoping that Marvel and DC Adopt some kind of creator friendly business model is kind of pointless, and in my opinion silly. They need to be excised from the conversation. There is a problem in comics; namely, that readers don't traditionally support creative, or independent work. 

Creative ideas don't usually come from Marvel, or DC comics. They start in the independent space, and are later co-opted by the big 2 houses. 
Come on. Do you really think something like Scott Pilgrim, or something like Walking Dead could ever have started at Marvel, or DC? 

If you want to support independent, creator owned work, then do so. It is the only way that creators become more visible, and more powerful. And if you want to help the comics industry become more varied, and diverse, it is where you should focus your efforts. 

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Raptchur [2015-07-19 03:13:24 +0000 UTC]

DC and Marvel are for blue haired girls with full sleeves, that "love horror movies", are " huge nerds", and wear big black frame glasses with no lenses. I'll take my Manga all day long. Can't get into Marvel or DC that much anymore. The movies are ruining it imo. Love Image though

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Bigjack66 [2015-07-19 01:17:14 +0000 UTC]

The quality of artwork has declined massively recently, with all the top artists moving on! I mean some of the artwork is really dreadful! I used to live following my favourite artist from book to book! Not anymore! There are still one or two but nowadays I'll just go for cheap comics on their smart phones!😡

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LizardDraws [2015-07-18 23:18:20 +0000 UTC]

marvel is awesome, but it IS hard to find a comic these days. It's frustrating.

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Johnny12575 [2015-07-18 21:18:48 +0000 UTC]

I'd rather have lower prices, less repetitive scenarios and probably more spots to get comics.

Plus I want a DC x Disney crossover. Uncle Scrooge, you got this xD

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slayerhuman [2015-07-18 20:10:43 +0000 UTC]

Ananı...

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Sinnoh-vau [2015-07-18 18:24:53 +0000 UTC]

1 - "If you had to choose, would you stay with the current crop of Marvel and DC superhero characters or would you be willing to have them take more risks and to do lots of new characters and ideas?

New characters and ideas are always welcome but I can't promise to support them if they're not up to the same caliber as existing properties, or don't seem to hold much promise. At the same time, I'm absolutely willing to read more stories about some of my favourite characters, it just feels like there are WAY too many, both companies are putting out too many series and it has put me off even trying to keep up (in that sense a new property is definitely better).

2 - "With all the superhero movies from Marvel and DC do you really think we need so many comics of the characters to still be published?"

We do because films take years to produce and cost so much to produce that they're usually creatively conservative and they're almost always adaptations of comic stories, so the comic, so those stories need to be there and lead the creative charge in the first place.

3 - "Do you support independent creators and their characters and if so, which ones are your favorites?"

Not at the moment but I'll try to increase my awareness of independents and what they're offering.

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mrmattlangford [2015-07-18 18:16:06 +0000 UTC]

I read mainly independent comics nowadays. I pick up the occasional Marvel and tend to buy DC in trades but limit myself to Batman titles. I disagree that there's a lack of new characters. Maybe this is true for Marvel and DC but in the independents there are new characters popping up on a monthly basis. Image are killing it at the moment and have some superb series on their hands. The new characters might not be superheroes but does that matter if the comics are selling by the truckload? Look at The Walking Dead, Southern Bastards, Wytches, Saga, and The Wicked & The Divine just to name a few. They're all great character driven series that will all go on for years.

You don't have to have a superhero to sell a comic book. I don't see where this story is coming from anyway. Comic sales are higher at the moment than they have been in 10 years!

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Eksodeus [2015-07-18 16:28:59 +0000 UTC]

I'd appreciate new ideas. Availability has become a major issue, just as creative rights and funding. Sure go with the characters that work but come on eventually we all get bored. There isn't much we can actually do to change things. Industry is Industry and all of that.

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abdulbiggs [2015-07-18 11:11:57 +0000 UTC]

who cares?

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sorwen [2015-07-18 08:58:45 +0000 UTC]

The problem is two fold. First the creative is now in charge of business and that is bad for business. The second is they are too busy telling us what we want rather than listening to what we want. They are too busy trying to force what new ideal for characters they want down our throats. They thought that new customers would out place any old lost and it didn't happen.

It is the same with many books and movies. Less and less people go to the movies but that is as much because they are busy trying to release any piece of junk they can. When it fails it isn't the movies fault but the audience.

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UchihaMadara2015 [2015-07-18 08:50:36 +0000 UTC]

Flagged as Spam

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