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techgnotic — The Future of Storytelling Has Arrived
Published: 2012-04-03 08:08:22 +0000 UTC; Views: 682817; Favourites: 2160; Downloads: 0
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by techgnotic The recently announced changes to the core mythos of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and the backlash from fans over the ending to Mass Effect 3 have ignited an incredible discussion about the rapidly evolving “collaborative” relationship between producers and consumers of videogames, movies, and similar “products.” Now it’s exploded beyond the secure borders of top news publications, gaming and entertainment websites. Looks like this long-bubbling cauldron of traditional ways and means, modern tech, web economics, core beliefs and future shock has finally boiled over... The gaming industry, and gaming media, is wrong to label upset consumers as ‘entitled’ or ignore the They don't "owe" you anything. They make a product, and then you decide if you're going to pay for it. Since many of you think it's okay to download anything you want for free, even that second step isn't a guaranteed part of the process anymore. But it's a very simple transaction. They make. You consume. … Even so, you are not actually owed anything beyond whatever entertainment they produced for you in the first place. It’s the question roiling the genre arts sparked by the release of Mass Effect 3 and speculation about changes Michael Bay may make in his reboot of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Should a video game creator rework a game’s ending if enough fans are dissatisfied with the original? Should fans’ responses to rumors about projects-in-planning be a major consideration in the creation of those projects? In this article I contend that it’s not simply that the gaming and movie industries are mistaken to dismiss Let me make another important point. I’m always annoyed when the “they make – you consume” contenders try to moot or obviate the whole discussion of producers and consumers by referring to movies, games, songs, etc. as mere “entertainment”. When I eat a cheeseburger at Umami, ride a rollercoaster, or laugh at a joke in a late nght talk-show host monologue, But movies, videogames and music are different. We “invest” ourselves greatly in them. Ask any young fan who thrilled There is no such thing as a singular fan reaction. Art is an interpretive experience. What you read in Moby Dick, No person other than the artist can make his or her art. Art is the manifestation of one man or woman's vision for a In my personal experience, listening to the feedback of a rabid fanbase can be a double-edged sword. Say your film or TV show is But the flip-side is, ignoring the early adopters or original fans can be to your peril. Often, film and TV executives are far removed Personally, I think the best storytelling is the product of a strong, single voice. I think it's important for creators to listen to Author/Creator of “Diary of A Wimpy Kid” The makers of Mass Effect have, I imagine quite by accident, found themselves suspended over what they must find a frightening abyss, with There have always been editors, censors, critics and all the other intruders necessarily a part of commercial publishing. And the “input” of public Having an open and sincere dialogue with fans has become an integral part of our business and our books. We value their passion CEO/Publisher of IDW Publishing While I think there is a lot of merit to the idea of listening to the core audience of any given franchise. I think "caving" too Dickens never would have made the mistake of incorporating his readers’ ideas throughout a novel’s chapters and then written a final chapter Hardly. The new technology driving instantaneous feedback and a greater demand for reader participation is simply forcing writers and visual The new paradigm of feedback-fed conception, production and distribution will take a while to establish itself on the still “Wild, Wild West” In the end, as always: yuumei , alexiuss and vesner are creative, visual and narrative storytellers who, with well over a million Writers have editors, but who says the editors can't be the audiences themselves? If I were writing a story mostly for my own Author/Creator of Knite & 1000 W0RDS I believe in altering endings, as long as the fanbase demands it, but not in a way that the original book/game/title is heavily Author/Creator of "Romantically Apocalyptic" People were disappointed with ME3's ending, not just because the developers promised something completely different, but because Co-Creator of Off-White Graphic Novel Dave Elliott and Jordan Greenhall are acute observers of the deviantART community and its impact. Being in the comics industry, you are acutely aware of two things: 1) that every corporate character has a history Author/Creator - Weirding Willows It is no stretch to recognize that the nature of a civilization is tightly linked with its form of media. In the modern day, where interaction on a global level happens in seconds, involving the audience while a work is in progress seems to be the best way to ensure success, so long as the writer makes an effort to consider all of the feedback they get, in addition to considering what story they intend to tell themselves. Feedback is a tool, sharpened by the instant communication and social networking options made available today; but like any tool, if wielded improperly it can deface a work of art as much as redefine it. There will always be astounding stories that pay no regard to what an audience wants and are all the more richer for it. And I'm bloody thankful for that…I certainly care for the opinions of my readers, and I have kept them in the front of my mind during one story or another. People who create to be consumed would care about pleasing the audience, people who are consumed by their creation quite frankly care only to please themselves. There is certainly a delicate balance between considering input from outside sources and creating something how you, as a writer, imagine it to be. However, that fine line doesn't make the input any less meaningful. As a visual artist, have you ever experienced being pressured to alter an artwork, either by a dealer to make it more “salable,” or by your watchers, critics, or friends? As a writer, have you ever experienced being pressured to change an important part of a story, either at a prospective publisher’s or editor’s insistence, or simply because of a reader’s impassioned entreaties? As a reader or viewer (of movies, TV shows, videogames, art, etc.) do you feel a sense of entitlement giving you the right to not only criticize but actually demand changes be made to a disappointing work? Do you feel this entitlement is based in your great investment of both money and time in the work? Or do you feel this entitlement is based in your great investment of your head and heart in a particularly resonant storyline? As a writer or visual artist, is the connection between you and your audience important enough for you to want to make a change pleasing to them? As an online reader of Knite, Romantically Apocalyptic, or Off-White, is there an increased value or special connection you experience in being able to connect with the authors of your favorite works-in-progress and contribute your feedback? Does the ability to offer comments, suggestions, criticisms, and encouragement bond you creatively to a property in a way eclipsing passive fandom? Does Fan art and Fan Fiction created around an online story with author/reader interactivity become more of an integral part of the property than traditional offline fan art tributes? If you played ME3, how did you feel about the ending? TMNT or TANT?
The Future ofStorytellingHas Arrived
Should you listen to your audience?
The Contenders
investment of fans beyond simply spending their hard-earned cash.
vs.
disgruntled fans as nuisances deluded with a false sense of “entitlement” – I actually contend that commercial
storytelling across all media should increasingly incorporate community feedback as an essential element in a
project’s success. Fan influence might alter a project by 5% or 60%. It’s all in the balance of how fan feedback
is utilized in the process.
I am partaking of an “entertainment”. These are those momentary pleasures in life that help you relax or give you a cheap
thrill – and they are instantly disposable.
to vicariously inhabiting one of the characters in the Hunger Games. Dick Clark once rightly said that music becomes the
“soundtrack of our lives.” Movies have always been (and now, too, videogames) the alternative “religions” or mythos that
we choose to identify with, and by which we often define and direct how we think about our lives, sometimes to an extent
exceeding actual religions or ideologies. What I’m saying is that the “psychic stakes” in this current dispute are a little
higher and more vital to our culture than it just being a “consumer complaint” situation.
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles by Zlydoc
From TheArtist GodsOf The Genre
and what I read in Moby Dick, are different things. That is very much one of the joys of the arts. We don't have a singular
response. There's a quote which states, 'All art aspires to the condition of music,' and that's because music is infinitely
interpretable. Who would want to conform an artist's vision into something else?
better world. And, hopefully, that vision will inspire generations to create their own art. That's just the way I see it.
CliveBarker , as a uniquely modern renaissance man, is especially qualified to comment on our topic. Only Stephen
King rivals his fame atop the charts of popular fantasy and horror fiction. As a novelist his books include "Abarat", "Imajica" and "Thief of Always". The Candyman and Hellraiser films were based on
his writings. But he is also a renowned visual artist, his paintings and drawings having hung in prestigious fine arts galleries.
He has been creatively involved in videogames, comic books, films and even costume design. He has produced films as diverse as
Gods and Monsters and The Midnight Meat Train. His perspective is that of an absolute original.
based on preexisting material like a comic. On the one hand, you have to be careful not to adhere too closely to the source material.
What's right for one medium (a comicbook or videogame, say) may not necessarily be right for a film. And vice versa. Secondarily, when
thinking about a film or TV show, you're talking about million or even tens of millions of viewers (as opposed to, say, 40,000 comicbook
readers). You are making a mass-market adaptation, so the broader audience may or may not be amenable to certain conceits.
from their actual consumers. Many of them no longer see movies in a public theater. More still, have never set forth in a comicbook
store. To some executives, there is literally no differentiation between, say, Superman and some small-press indie comicbook. They
perceive all comicbooks to be the same. They may have no understanding of the source material's DNA. I can't tell you how many times I've
had an executive suggest a change that I knew, in my gut, would send the fans screaming. It's hard to explain that to an executive,
sometimes. It's truly a gut-check kind of thing.
David Goyer provides invaluable perspective, having mastered every facet of the genre arts narrative. He is a
screenwriter (Dark City, Batman Begins, The Dark Knight, Man of Steel) who has also written for TV, comic books and videogames. He is
a film director (Blade: Trinity, The Unborn) and producer (Blade II and Trinity, Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance). He is a novelist
(Heaven’s Shadow). Heaven’s War, the second book of his sci-fi trilogy, is unleashed this July; The Dark Knight Rises, the film sequel
from his original story, is in post-production; and his newest creation, Da Vinci’s Demons will debut soon on Starz.
their fans and to make adjustments along the way, but I'm not so sure that a collaborative effort can create a singular vision. I think a
creator should not only write to please their audience but also to occasionally surprise them.
Rue - The Hunger Games by Patsie
So what’s really going on with theMass Effect 3& TMNT showdown?
one foot planted in the old way of doing things, and the other foot toeing the unfamiliar terrain on the other side of the yawning chasm. They
encouraged fans to change the outcome of the game with their own decisions – but then largely ignored those decisions. Is this really a dispute
over creator’s rights vs. fan entitlement – or is it about how technology’s new tools are fundamentally changing commercial story narrative creation?
readership has always factored in as well, with some artists cursing it and others embracing it. Rather than write “take-it-or-leave-it” novels,
complete at time of publication, Charles Dickens was famous for creating his serialized stories a chapter at a time, published weekly of monthly
in magazines or newspapers specifically so he could gauge readers’ response to each chapter before writing or revising the next. Great Expectations
is certainly the product of Dickens’s brilliant compassionate mind and expert writing talents – but it’s also to a tremendous extent a collaborative
creation with hundreds of “contributing authors”!
Mass Effect 3 how it should've ended by Hellstern
ThePublishingPerspective
and input, so direct conduits like social media have helped us form a solid bond and bring us even closer in what is already a
tightly knit industry.
much to what fans want can lead to a watered-down product. Sometimes fans think they want something and as soon as they get it, the
franchise suddenly loses its dramatic tension. The bottom line, for me, is that sometimes there's a groundswell that is too loud to ignore.
If the majority of your fanbase is upset by something you've done or clamoring for a plot point that has been ignored, it would be
silly to dismiss it out of hand. But creators should also be wary of taking every single critique of their project too seriously.
Co-President and Co-Publisher, Ardden Entertainment LLC
Comic Book Writer, Flash Gordon and Phoenix / Founder, Macmillan Films
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles by SkyFinch
So Here IsThe Point
completely at odds with all those ideas. The Mass Effect 3 mistake was to encourage player “revisions” to the storyline – but only as a gimmick
rather than committing to this new reality as an integral part of the evolution of the narrative. Any “narrative” today, to be commercially viable,
will have to be “written” for the full spectrum of storytelling demanded by the evolution of web production and distribution. Stories must be full
spectrum narratives, able to fit themselves to tellings as videogames, comics and graphic novels, traditional novels, feature film and television
and Internet productions (live action or animated). And all these iterations of a core story will be subject to constant fan comment for revision
and extension. This is the brave new world that Dickens would have embraced as liberating rather than destructive of his authorship, the tool of
“reader” feedback having now become an instantaneous and continuous global information stream that will propel forward those who learn to navigate
it, and drown those who fear a “loss of control” in uncharted waters.
So is “authorship” doomed?
artist/creators in other art forms to face new realities and make tough decisions about how their artistic expression is going to be distributed to the planet.
Every time a painting or journal is posted on deviantART it has the potential to be experienced by a thousand times the number of people who had access
to anything written by Charles Dickens in his time. And be instantly commented upon by those people. Personal artistic expression and connection
has been liberated as never before. But the conundrum remains: No artist has to ever alter or revise an artwork, but then again, no artist has to
ever make a penny from his or her art. Writers, and all artists, must find the spot on that “art vs. pay” continuum where they are most comfortable
and functional. There can always be art for art’s sake, unintended for sale, but there is now a radical new way of becoming a successful and
world-popular commercial storyteller. And the new way heeds the feedback enabled by the new tech from word one.
Internet, but it will provide producers of content-driven stories with a real security in the commercial success of their properties – rather than
the increasing chaos they are currently falsely fearing. In the end “authorship” will always be bestowed upon the artist individual who most
commands respect as the one whose efforts most connect with us, the readers or viewers, regardless of any input from feedback or cuts by editors.
Writers need not fear a degradation of their work, nor their becoming mere typists transcribing the public’s wishes.
True talent and true vision will win out.
Charles Dickens by JuanOsborne
Deviant Artists AlreadyEmbracing the Futureof Storytelling
reads each for their stories on deviantART, enjoy an unprecedented relationship with their online audience. Their input is informed
by their status as artists already participating in storytelling’s new paradigm.
enjoyment, then I have no obligations to please the audience. However, if I am creating something with the main purpose of
marketing to the masses, then my work should reasonably meet their expectations, and the best way to do that would be to listen to their opinions.
edited, but rather in the way in which the 2nd story of the title continues. For example, if the protagonist dies in the 1st book,
he can be somehow brought back to life if the fanbase really really wants to read a 2nd book about him. Without this alteration,
one of the greatest books I've read called 'The Golden Calf' would not exist. Personally I'm very heavily influenced by critics and
fans, so if my work is lacking in some regard, I update it or try to improve on it.
players didn't just watch/play this story – they were an integral part of it up to that point. Every player who spent their time
playing all of the three games created a strong bond between themselves and Commander Shepard to a degree that, in a way, they all
became Commander Shepard. We all want to believe that our actions can change our fate and the fate of the world.
with certain aspects of that history carved in stone, and 2) these characters have a strong, ardent following that, if
you are going to change them, it had better be good, or you'll know about it via Twitter, Facebook, and deviantART. I
will no doubt face this myself 10 times over with "The Weirding Willows," which merges timelines and histories of more
than a dozen beloved, classic characters. Whilst being as respectful of the characters and their histories as possible,
I won't let that stand in the way of what I want to do with the possibilities represented. I'm looking forward to the
feedback I expect from this one.
It must be understood that we are undergoing a media transformation quite as substantial as the invention of written
language. As a consequence, we should expect social media (or, better, what will come to be known as Transmedia) to reshape
our world in deeply profound ways. This movement from center to edge, from author to community, from broadcast to interactivity,
is a fundamental. We will be seeing it literally everywhere, including art. Especially art - as we come to discover that one
of the core threads of this transition is a (real) aestheticization of life.
Mass Effect 3: At Any Cost by Arkis
Massacre of the InnocenceGeorgie Porgie threw an orgy
just outside L.A.,
where Jack Be Nimble grabbed his thimble,
outing him as gay...
Little Jack Horner bought Time Warner
before the bubble burst,
though Jumping Jack Flash saw the crash
and liquidated first...
Jack said Jill was taking the Pill
to ward off impregnation;
the Three Blind Mice have lobbied twice
for victim's compensation...
Little Miss Muffet had her tuffet
liposuctioned out,
and L
I Have Hope I have Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I have to remember to breathe every time those words come, I don’t want to believe it. I still can’t believe it. I remember the first time my counselor looked at me and told me that my depression and anxiety might be something more. Great, I thought, What could possibly be worse than this?
Firstly, PTSD is not a disorder that only affects our war heroes, though that is what it’s commonly associated with. My own first thoughts were: “isn’t that a disorder for war veterans or someone who witnessed war first-hand?“ The truth is there are many causes for Post Traumatic Stress
QuestionsFor the Reader
Related content
Comments: 3125
Well without us they wouldn't be so powerful right? So they need to also support us if they want our support.
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I agree. Companies are powerful because of fans/consumers. They still don't quite get it. They understand that fans want more experiences, more content..and they are putting a lot of stuff out there, but the problem is the ownership factor. I think fans need to DEMAND that they want in. Some of you guys want to continue to create, and you want to see your creations in more places other than the Internet.
Tyre.
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I think feedback from the consumers (audience, etc) is great, where actually changing the original idea to satisfy audiences is going too far. I think those who say 'change Mass Effect 3 ending because it SUCKED' are too selfish. If you don't like it, why don't you make it yourself?
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I agree. It will be impossible for a company to create one solid ending that will please everyone. Why? Because everyone is different. Everyone has different likes and tastes. However, this isn't just a bioware problem every company needs to think about including the audience in their properties because the world is changing.
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Yeah, and I don't understand why so many people find the ending fustrating when there's more than just one ending.
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I agree. Even if the ending was bad. I think the company shouldn't have change the ending to that particular game. They should have just admitted their mistakes, and create a platform to where the fans and the company could meet on common grounds for the next mass effect.
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That's a great idea, creating a game from the consumer's feedback.
Wait a minute, isn't that what the beta version is for?
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The concept is the same, but what I am considering is on a grand scale. Ideally you will give feedback on a world. Professionals take that feedback consider it if its good they will keep it. If its bad they will try to comprise with you..
They make the game. You purchase the game. You identify your idea or feedback that you gave to the professional, and if you feel that the idea could be modified. You go back online and make changes, and when the storyline continues either for a sequel game or a comic book extension your changes will be included.
The difference between beta versions and my idea is that the communication is transparent, and a actual game maker will know you and your ideas, and use it. So basically you will have more influence and control to story elements and if you want more control and influence you may have to pay in like microtransacations. its a working concept that I have in my head.
Also, typically game developers do beta versions so they could test and check for bugs. More specifically, say if you had a character idea for Fable. Game developers like it. They use it. Character is popular, and they want to do comics now. Do you think you will have the opportunity for feedback in the comic book? Probably not.
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I agree and I understand where you're coming from.
The last part, I think maybe. This whole commotion is big; people change their ideas all the time, either small corrections or massive revamps. Take Spider-Man 3 for example. Most people didn't like it (I did though.), so many people hated it enough for Sony decided to reboot the series. I don't know if the Hulk (2003) movie was re-booted for the same reason though.
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from the Spider Man films starring Tobey Maguire.
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I hope that will actually happen. I want it to.
I guess that people just don't like change. That's what it all boils down to.
Although, in BioWare's case, they weren't basing Mass Effect on anything because they pretty much made the universe from scratch (so did Bungie when they made Halo). But, it can still be applied to the Hulk movies, maybe the Spider-Man movie (the new one), and Michael Bay's TMNT. (Personally, I don't like his style.)
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I agree sir! Yes, Hollywood is very resistant to new technologies and change..example "VCRS"
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Hey,
To sum up what I am proposing. A merger between Fans and Professional = one media product....instead of a bunch of different products and legal headaches. Even if the media product is not perfect when its completed, fans will understand.
The thing about movies adapting a comic is that comic books have a lot of different storylines with their issues, and when directors make a film they are most likely following a storyline from a comic that has happened. Although Spider Man with Andrew Garfield shows a spider biting Spidey and he gains these extroaidnary powers..this is a different experience from the spider mans starring Andrew Garfield.
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Very impacting article 
1) As an artist, yes, sometimes because most people only want to see themselves when I am drawing a gift for them. As a writer, not really because I like to keep most of my writing to myself. As a viewer, I feel I should be able to properly criticize, but not change it. What someone puts out there is their choice if they should change it for the viewers or not.
2) I suppose it would be both, but mostly heart.
3) No, not really. I appreciate a viewer's feedback, but it doesn't mean I'm going to alter my work. That would make it theirs, not mine.
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It seems like your more of a passive member of the audience, and your not interested in participating but consuming a game or comic. Good luck with your writings!
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Great article, wow.
The Future of Storytelling is exciting! I personally am just happy I am in the age I am, we get to define this age of the internet, and inter connectivity. It is a very exciting time to be an artist, we get to explore new mediums and create absolutely new ways of doing things.
In the future, yuumei's "Knite" and other interactive stories can become another completely separate form of reading. Like the comic book was to the book.
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With the whole copyright/trademark mess, and how it badly needs to be reworked because of the internet and digital revolution...and companies suing users for sharing their media to friends...which is wrong when most people share media with no intentions on making money of it...
...companies need to really embrace that the future of storytelling is audience participation. They should invest money on research at universities, and not bozos who call themselves Transmedia Gurus.
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Interesting debate. I'm seriosly curious about other peoples views on this and I thought about all of the quotes in the jorunal.
I think that art is something the artist makes from what they want to do. They shouldn't be pressured into doing something they don't want to do but they shouldn't be ignoring their fans.
Feedback is critical to make something better, but if you're being swallowed up by it, you'll get nowhere. Keep your readders/watchers/fans thoughts in mind as you write or draw, but don't forget about your own opinions. You'll simply become angry about everything.
As for the questions.
''As a reader or viewer (of movies, TV shows, videogames, art, etc.) do you feel a sense of entitlement giving you the right to not only criticize but actually demand changes be made to a disappointing work?''
I've been disgusted with many things and events that happen in books, but never have I once thought I had a right to change what that person created. I give critique yes, but I think only if they want to follow it, should they. You shouldn't be demanding artists/authors to do what you want. They should take it into consideration, yes, but there are millions of others who may want something else. Demanding something of them isn't your right.
''Do you feel this entitlement is based in your great investment of both money and time in the work? Or do you feel this entitlement is based in your great investment of your head and heart in a particularly resonant storyline?''
Though I don't write much, I think you should do what you want, follow your heart, or gut, and write it. You may get critiqued or chastised, but honestly, if you think you should write it, write it. money shouldn't be your main goal at all, it should be to please others and yourself and if the work is something you are displeased with, don't write it. You shouldn't feel pressured by the fans or anything.
''As a writer or visual artist, is the connection between you and your audience important enough for you to want to make a change pleasing to them?''
I don't really think so. I take their ideas to heart and keep them in mind, but if this will change everything, I wouldn't do it. If you're not proud of it or simply don't like it, what's the point? Money? Fame? You should follow what your heart says, keep your fans in mind, yet make sure you don't get swallowed up by them.
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Take Douglas Adams for example. His hit series, Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy, had a huge fanbase. They demanded more books from him when he clearly didn't want to write them. But they pressured him so much, that he went mad and wrote them out in anger instead. He was clearly pressured so much, that he simply became angry at them all.
George Lucas' Star Wars prequels were basically hated by the fans, who were going crazy over them. He's now simply angry at them. "I don't know, maybe I should ASK THE FANS FOR PERMISSION TO WRITE ANOTHER SCRIPT." Something along those lines.
Fans get way too crazy and you shouldn't take everything they say to heart... I don't think that they should rewrite that TNMT thing. That's just ridiculous.
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Yes, you are 100 percent right. When writers write their ideas, concepts, story-lines are generating from emotions and experiences and if the writer is angry or pressured than it will effect the quality of the work.
I'm going to comment with the TNMT I don't understand how a movie studio could let a big time Director get away with making critical creative changes to a franchise, but when a fan has an idea or a series of scripts(good ones too!) the movie studio wants to either call the fans scripts ridiculously crazy or say it infringes on their copyrights, and order fans to pull any material down.
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That's sensible. Authors write what they want, I decide if it's a buy.
I heard the live action TLU was put down before start of production because they wanted to use a horse for the unicorn, when the original book clearly states that the unicorn "looked nothing like a horse, as they are often depicted". If this is the truth, I'm glad the production was stopped because it would have "befouled" the original, which is a timeless classical fantasy.
I'm not sure if I feel the same way about TMNT. This franchise has been redone over and over, and the original fans are now grown up and maybe should be open to something fresh based on the franchise. It is one way for the story to live on for generations to come.
On the other hand, should you stray too far from the original? Just because you bought the rights? Everything that is made today is made with the intention to make money, it seems. Some classics need to be left alone.
I've come to accept, after WB's butchering of Harry Potter, that movie adaptation can't please everyone. To be honest they are fairly close to the source material and they don't change to much in favour of special effects (I hate those made-up dramatic-sounding convenient spells), but they change many small things that takes away the magic for me. WHY was it never explained who Padfoot and Prongs were?
I think an original story like Mass Effect doesn't need to follow anyone's rules since they do their own thing. I do however think it is wrong for the producers to promise an interactive ending and disappointing their audience with this half-assery, though.
In the end, I don't tend to open my wallet. Tsk, Hollywood.
And that is why games like Skyrim and Zelda sell so well. I buy them because I get what I want. (I'm starting to tire of the Zelda franchise though. If you never renew, I could be playing the oldies instead.) I loved Wind Waker for its mix of old and new. That's the beauty of it.
I rarely get excited over games or movies anymore. I draw my own art and make up my own stories. And play board games.
Lots of board games.
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"I've been disgusted with many things and events that happen in books, but never have I once thought I had a right to change what that person created. I give critique yes, but I think only if they want to follow it, should they. You shouldn't be demanding artists/authors to do what you want. They should take it into consideration, yes, but there are millions of others who may want something else. Demanding something of them isn't your right." Perfectly stated, this is my opinion too.
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Well, while the consumers are the one investing in the product it is the companies job to ensure that the consumers are still captivated by the offered product. By losing the audience the company loses profit, however, by caving into the demands the final product is seen as being less desirable than the original product.
In order to keep an audience captivated by the final product it is the companies job to do the required research of what the consumers desire. If the company fails with this what is the purpose of the company?
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I'd have to say that if there is a serious mythos behind the story you shouldn't just freely change it to fit your wallet, look at the Star Trek restart, they didn't insult the original series or timeline they instead created a whole new timeline. When it comes to video games the companies need to realize these people buy in to the story and if they do one that comes out horrible it'll make or break they producers of that game, there are so many games where they messed up the endings from how things were and had to kiss ass to make it up to the fans, one in particular Halo 2. They need to realize that if they allowed individual choices in a game to accommodate the ending to bring about something different for each one of those variables.
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1. I know that I am still developing as an artist so I welcome criticism, but only from other artists that I respect. If I feel that my art is beyond them, I will simply ignore them.
As a reader I believe that a work is final and that it shouldn't be changed under most circumstances. Sure, retcon a few things in another work, but people need to be able to commit. If you don't like what a creator has done then let them know, politely, and hopefully they will keep that in mind for their next piece.
2. People seem to think that everything is for sale. Personally, my creative integrity is not for sale. If I sold you a piece of art I would be offended if you came back and asked me to tweak it. Let me know what you didn't like about the work. I will listen, I might even agree, but I will not change it. My work represents me at the time I created it. I would be lying about myself if I went back to a finalized work and edited it.
A creator should respect the reactions of their fans, but the fans should respect the creators integrity, regardless of what they have invested in the creator's work.
3. Once again, I don't think that a creator should have to sacrifice their integrity to please their fans, however it is their choice.
5. I have not played Mass Effect. I have formed an opinion of the ending based on everything I've read about it. From what I have read, Mass Effect is a series known for giving players choices which effect the outcome of the story. The problem is that all of the players choices count for nothing at the end of the game. The outrage from the fans seems to be fueled by this broken promise. I think that this was unavoidable though.
From the creator's standpoint it must be a total pain to account for all the different directions players may take in the game. If the games message was something like "insurmountable odds are insurmountable" and everyone dies no anyway, then the ending would probably be better. There was probably a deadline approaching faster than the creators anticipated, so they took the easy way out. Maybe this was the ending the creators always wanted. It doesn't really matter anyway though because the creators of Mass Effect buckled and put out some DLC.
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If Eastman & Laird are fine with it, I doubt we'll have much of a choice, but making the Turtles aliens simply destroys that which makes them unique. After hearing about the poor quality of the other TF movies, I wonder about Bay's intentions too.
I feel that if you are creating something using an estabished series as a jumping point, then you can stretch boundries, but only so far. You can't make Optimus Prime the Autobot eqivelent of 'Martin Riggs', but you can modify his body style.
Incidentally, I think we're forgetting what happened a few years back when WB was about to launch 'Loonatics Unleashed'. There was a character sheet realeased, and 1 small boy gathered enough support to get WB to actually re-envision the series. The series was a way for the studio to make money. They knew if enough fans were unhappy, they wouldn't make enough (if any) of it.
It's funny to call this 'The Future of Storytelling' when it's been going on for years. Creating variations on a theme is why fanfiction is so popular.
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Wow, good article.
Personally, as a writer, I haven't been pushed too much, but that's also because I tend to only share what I feel isn't a selfish piece of work. It's not a "black and white" setting, but there tend to be two types of writing: for yourself and for others. I do a lot of writing that never gets past my save files. Other things, I'm itching to share them because I feel they could bring something out in my readers. And when it does, I like the feedback that they can provide, especially with how the story progresses, and what they think makes it worth reading. It's how I learn. But when I'm being asked/told to change something immensely critical to the way I see the story progressing, I DO think about it, mainly because I wonder if I had a disconnect in the story bridges or if it really could help the story along without taking away what makes it original. And as an apprentice writer, I can always use the feedback.
However, along those lines, when someone goes too far, they go too far. It's all a matter of how flexible the story is, or how completely off-center the reader went.
As a reader/viewer, the usual sense of entitlement that I feel is that I feel entitled to be able to make the choice to consume said book/movie/game/etc. But some things have a breaking point. When a movie is based off a book and it destroys everything that the book ever was, I am entitled the right to complain, loudly, but the damage is done, the movie is made and I'll just have to be satisfied that I can always go back to the book. The only time I feel I have the right to demand change is when my opinion is asked for, hence what causes the Mass Effect rage. Devoted fans that have been there since the Normandy SR-1 always mattered at some point of another. Example: in the first game, a large chunk of the fanbase fell madly in love with Garrus and Tali, and Bioware took that into consideration. Game two: guess who's available for romancing. That was a major moment when the fans of the game mattered, and it showed that what we feel was taken into account. When that happens, we take confidence from it and feel we have the right to voice our opinion and it will/should be heard.
When I get a feeling of entitlement, it's a lot like what I said above. Sometimes I have to grit my teeth and deal, but other times I feel I have a right to be heard. As has been mentioned several times previously, it is a double-edged blade. When you invest yourself in something with so much entirety, especially when you keep getting told that your choices and opinions mean a lot to how the story goes, it has a special kind of sting when the rug randomly gets yanked out from under you.
As for Mass Effect 3, I loved the ride all the way up until the end when they suddenly tripped you up on acid and nothing made sense anymore. Your opinions no longer mattered, your choices from all the time before it no longer had any sway on the story's end at all, and the logic just kind of frolicked off in a strange direction. The main reason I feel the fans of the Mass Effect universe deserve better is because of the overwhelming feeling of betrayal after spending years being content that you knew you had some sway over how things would go. It's not funny when someone pulls a "just kidding" on something that had pretty much become a total part of you.
In other stories with more stable parameters, I can accept where things go. The last Harry Potter book makes me cry every time, but I still love it. The turn of events in the Black Jewels Trilogy breaks my heart in so many ways, but I can accept them because it's what makes the story so rich. The stories where cliffhanger endings often drive me crazy, but they also leave me the flexibility to draw my on conclusions. But when I am promised closure and told that my thoughts matter, you damn well better deliver enough that I'm not left feeling so confused that I wonder if the writers just got lazy because they were trying to meet a deadline. If you need to take an extension to fill in the blanks, please do it. I'll take the wait over the disappointment every time.
I think I'm done ranting...... Maybe.
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I've been very involved in several fandoms, and one thing I've noticed is this: although fans may often get the direction of the story right (this guy wins, that guy loses, A ends up with B), they will get the specifics wrong 90% of the time. Why? Because fans will always try to work with what the author has already created. But the author is the only one free to create new elements: new characters, new locations, new plots, and those Can't be predicted. The author is like the person who built a building and had it decorated. The fans look around, finds things left by the author and may move furniture around, but unlike the author they can't order in new furniture at any time or have whole sections of the building destroyed. The author is free to push those boundaries. The fans, bound by the loyalty to what's "canon", is not.
It's not to say that their feedback isn't valuable, but the distinction between tweaking and creation is very important. The fans will tell you: "Hey, that picture looks crooked, those curtains look awful", and there's valuable lesson to be learned in that. Neither the author nor the fans must never forget though that the fans only see the tip of the iceberg, and the author must be responsible for that 90% of work that's invisible to the fans. Sometimes the fans will point out something fishy, but in fact, it may reveal much more fundamental problems that they can't fix by themselves. For example, "Wow, the main character is bland." The fans won't "fix" the character for you though, they can't. The author is the only one who can and should have put more work into the character. "Wow, that part of the plot was awkward." The author should have thought about and gathered circumstances to bring about that development naturally. If it's too late to change, then next time, the author sould keep these weaknesses in mind, like the artist who's told that he draws hands badly, and needs to go back and practice.
As for movie adaptions... my god they're often such disasters. :S But I suspect it's because since a script is already available, movie producers are too lazy to do the hard work of actually doing a proper adaptation and essentially gloss over that part of the work.
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I believe that fans should have a say in what is made if it is emotionally invested. I do think that Bioware has the right to end the game they want but as far as changing something like the turtles I believe it is ludicrous. I think if you are going to remake something do not change it as drastically as the supposed new Turtles movies is supposed to be.
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It's hard for me to define where I draw the line between "entitlement," and what we actually ARE entitled to, as fans of a book series/TV series/comic series/anime series/movie series. But I'll do my best.
We are not entitled to have plot elements that we want in canon. That's what fanfics are for. The writers will write what they want. Usually better than what we want.
We are not entitled to have pairings that we want in canon. That's what fanfics are for. The writers will write what they want.
In a movie adaptation with the origin story, we are not entitled to have every detail unchanged, UNLESS those details are vital to the character (so that, without them, the character's motivation and personality makes no sense). Spiderman's webs coming from web shooters? The writers can change that if they want. Spiderman's uncle getting killed in a way that he feels he feels is his fault because he neglected to do something he should have done? Not negotiable.
Which brings me to my list of what I feel we ARE entitled to, as fans of the series. When we are emotionally invested in a series, we are entitled to:
- be able to REMAIN emotionally invested in the series, if we choose to be. That means being able to suspend disbelief. We are entitled to the series... NOT stomping on our ability to suspend disbelief. Mainly, this means that a) the series needs to be internally cohesive, and b) the characters need to act like people (assuming, of course, that they are people).
- have the story written by writers who care at least as much about the story and the characters as we do.
- in the case of movie adaptations... well, movie adaptations are kind of odd, in the sense that they generally have their own canon, separate from the "canon" canon. So they can mess with things... up to a point. Personally, I just draw the line at a) not being consistent within the movie itself (stomping on our ability to suspend disbelief), or b) undermining the reasons I fell in love with the series in the first place.
I'm a fan of Spiderman. But the reason I'm a fan is not because he has web shooters. The fact that he has web shooters is not vital to his character (he's still the same person without them). Therefore, I didn't mind the web shooters not being there in the Toby MacGuire movies. I didn't mind at all.
I'm a fan of Daredevil. I can pinpoint exactly when I became a fan - it was when reading, "The Man Without Fear" by Frank Miller, and DD was trying to stop a guy who headed a child slavery/prostitution ring, and who was currently holding a little girl hostage. Several times, DD said, "I don't want to kill you. Let her go." Finally, the guy shoots him, and DD deflects the bullet back into the guy's forehead. Because he had no other choice that would have kept the girl safe. I loved that he didn't actually want to hurt the bad guy... I loved the internal conflict between pragmatism and justice, between vengeance and mercy. And I love that he CONTINUES to struggle with that, all the time, even after all of the hell and the repeated, constant trauma that he goes through. So when the movie completely violated all of that in the first 10 minutes and had him chasing a guy onto some train tracks and jeering as the guy got run over by the train, I felt, well... violated. And angry.
...and I still feel that I had every right to feel that way.
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Is this a good thing or a bad thing cause i fully don't understand it
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Its really simple, Bioware made promises, even coming days before the release. They knew that they would be breaking those promises. You have no "artistic integrity" when they treat me like a dumb sheep eyed consumer.
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If I'm understanding Clive Barker's point, I completely agree with him. People have got to realize that art is the vision of the creator. Therefore, who are we to ask to change it? Take what you learn and create your own unique story instead of complaining about other people's stories.
When you are playing a videogame, watching movie, reading a book, etc.. you are watching someone else's ideas unfold. You do not have to like it.. there is nothing that every single person will like. For the things you like, enjoy it. For those you don't like, move on. I absolutely hate seeing these artists change their visions just to try to please everyone, especially since they're changing their ideas to accommodate the ideas of people who are not artistic.
(And of course, I'm not saying that the only people complaining are from the non-artistic group, but logic would say that amongst the masses, there are many who are, and their voices are still being heard.)
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when we write...we right what we feel or have seen or think other would enjoy but if someone says to re write....it s but you wont change nothing for nobody because you worte it the way you want it
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I can't help but think though that sometimes listening too hard to the fans may in turn hurt the product because some fans may refuse changes to things that need to be changed and help broad somethings appeal.
I wonder if we would've gotten the Heath Ledger Joker if they 100% listened to their fans?
That said, fans are the ones paying for the damn thing so sometimes listening to them isn't always a bad thing.
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This "Entitlement" thing is rather like.... double edged sword, as a player if you did invest time (and optionally money) into a game but mostly plot you enjoyed it is a bit sad to see things take a turn for the worse that is true...
but then again, I'm sure we all remembered Aeris's tragic death... lots of tears were shed.... and the demands to bring her back... so many, but they never did... why?
her death brought emotion to what would eventually end as a dull game had she stayed alive, sometimes turns for the worse are needed to dish out emotive moments where even when you know it's gonna be grim stuff still happens and suddenly something you really looked up to dies in your face or is lost for all eternity... moments like this bring despair and emotion (sometimes thrill) to keep on going sure some people disagree but sometimes a turn for the worse it's whats needed...
....which brings me to my second point, the criticism, using the same example, S.E received many letters from fans demanding Aeris to come back to life... had they done that the moment would have been ruined... considering the player never lost something dear to him,
of course S.E had lots of raging fans but it was somewhat for the best, then again dont get me wrong we DO need fan criticism because there are some horrible mistakes S.E did pull off due to the lack of criticism.... the natural reply? most of that criticism was unhelpful and mostly by raging players,
what helps a developer and a player is the CONSTRUCTIVE
criticism, a sincere non-demanding way of telling a developer maybe if such thing happened then X thing would have developed better, of course even better if such critic could clearly explain why such modification is beneficial to all...
it basically boils down to listen up, keep your cool and simulate the changes. you might be surprised how many plots would be spiced up if they pulled their strings in a new direction which satisfies both the maker and it's crowd.
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I'm thinking it's fun to speak about the future of story telling, while it's a very old and common practice; the fans always add some sort of power over the writters of every given universe. Remember sherlock holmes? What about popular TV shows, saved by a concerned fanbase?
We're just aknowledging what's already, and for a long time, a common trend inside all arts.
I think every fan of a universe have to cope with the "original story", unless it's quality drop miserably. People have to be aware these universes are created by people pretty much knowing most part of their stories, and detailling things you won't ever heard off, unless they publish a kind of "guide of XXXX universe". The creators of a given universe, by setting up the background of the story, the characters, and the drama, gave a grasp on your fantasies and dreams. But what am I implying with a "quality dropping miserably"?
Well, especially when it's about TV show and Video Games, and on a longer trend, Comic books, creative crew tend to change. Sometimes these newbees brought with them such a new and awesome version of the original universe they change it for the better, and make most of us think about it as an imporvment. And sometimes, we end up with half assed explanations over questions which answers where long awaited, and we're clearly uppset, thinking any dumbass could have brought a better ending, given a correct answer to our expectations. That' what happenned to sherlock holmes, and the fanbase pretty much enslaved Conan Doyle to his main charater for his lifetime. That's also what happen when some good artists, among the fanbase, came up with a better version than the original copyrighted work, and are plesbiscited by all the community. In my opinion, that kind of twist have to be encouraged. If a fanbase is dedicated enough to brought improvement onto a given universe, and make it live, it's up to them, and the content reated at this point should be free from rights, because even if it start from a original universe, which rights are detained by the original creator or the company that produce the series/comics/books/whatever the fuckin support, these ideas are now the real universe for the fanbase. At some point, a creation go so mainstream it couldn't be distinguished from pop culture standard, and the fan art outnumber so heavily the original content, and sometimes outlast and supplant the original in quality. At this point, right must be given to the new original creators, no more to a proud ancestor, which have made is time.
Owning rights over an original creation is one thing. Monitoring all the aspect of a given universe, and prevent it from being reused is absurd. Ideas have to be spread, manipulated, and used as fuel for new creations. If this idea isn't really new, internet contribute to democratize it, and I fully support those kind of thinking.
The true story for everyone is the one he imagine himself
Culture must be free
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I believe art is art, but you have to take the hits that comes with it. You can listen to your fans and mold it together or create it your self and let it stand as is. The first choice is normally the better choice, that way you take the better ideas or form better idea with the fans. The second choice is a bit like shooting your self in the foot. If its good then you have done your job or task, but if it falls the you can't blame it on anybody. Hope fully if you choice the second choice, you did what you wanted and liked.
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I have just about every TMNT thing ever made and I will NOT be going to see Michael Bay's poor, misconceived version if it in fact does include a space/alien element. I hope others follow so the movie is flop. Cowabunga!!!!!
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Just going to apologize for posting twice. I dont know how that happened. Sorry about that.
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I want to know what the original creators of TMNT think about those changes. Isn’t that important? I know I personally would pissed to no end if someone took something of mine and changed things about it. Especially some key points. I think Michael Bay for the most part is an idiot who can’t come up with original ideas, so he steals other people’s ideas and makes them his own and attempts to make money off of them. Transformers one was pretty cool, the rest junk. He wasn’t trying to make a good film those last two films though. That’s obvious.
This is kind of like a so called comic artist who blatantly steals panel art and poses and puts their characters in place of other people’s characters, case in point Nick Simmons and his entry into the comic book world, which didn’t last long. To me what Michael Bay is doing is no different than that.
I’m all for creators rights in ignoring what fans want, because you will never please every fan out there. But I’m sick of junk like these happening. Michael Bay doesn’t care about the fan, that’s obvious in his decision to change important elements to the story. He just cares about making money. Just like the studios that are backing him. The truth is most of people who own and run the companies of our beloved creations, don’t care about you as a fan; you are a consumer and nothing more. This is just my thoughts obviously and everyone is entitled to agree or disagree, but you can look at the history of how fans have been treated. I really don’t care if Michael Bay makes a Ninja Turtle movie or Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle movie; he’s already proven himself to make worthless junk of movies a long time ago. I won’t waste my money to go see it.
I didn’t play mass effect 3, but if you promise your players one thing, and then don’t deliver that in the end, then yeah you should expect angry fans. I’ve heard about the end. Sounded like a pretty stupid move on their part. I read once a rule of storytelling is if you promise your audience one thing and then by the end of that book, you have not made due on that promise, you have done a bad job in storytelling. I’m not sure how much I think this is true, but I can see the reason behind this rule.
A great example I have found of fans interacting with the creator is this one. [link] Dragons Bard, a serial novel written by Tracy Hickman (of Dragonlance and Ravenloft fame ). I’m not registered because right now I cannot afford it, but I have read about this, and heard many interviews with Tracy Hickman, and what he is doing over there is an amazing idea. If more creators did this kind of thing I think they would care more about their fans.
At the same time, sometimes the fan is wrong, and you cannot please every fan.
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Actually, I imagine that the writers of TMNT probably don't mind the "alien" thing. Because TMNT was written as a parody in the first place. The "mutant" thing was a parody of all of the other "mutant" comics, and so making it even less unique by making them aliens is... even more in the spirit of the thing than "mutants" probably were.
What really matters, is if Michael Bay is even conscious of this, and is making this change for the right reasons. If he is, then it might be an ok movie. If he isn't, then it probably won't be.
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I can see what your saying, Michael Bay does not strike me as someone who really cares for the original meaning behind things.
But thats just me
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If people want it changed because it wasn't a happy ending then they can shove it. Never listen to people if that's why they're upset. They need to look past that and think about the story as a whole. Did the sad ending make it a better story? Was the reader just upset because they got attached to that character? Id prefer a realistic, twisted, interesting ending than a Disney ending any day, even if it meant that it was really sad and left me with a feeling of emptiness.
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Has nothing to do with it a being a happy ending. Maybe a few people are angry about that, but the overall rage is directed towards the ending flipping the bird to every single one of its narrative themes by way of "Architect from The Matrix Reloaded in Annoying Child Form," with none of the choices you've made in the past 5 years having any effect whatsoever.
deviantART muro drawing
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I meant things in general. I've had a lot of people bitch at me for my stories having sad but realistic endings. I actually dont know anything about the Mass Effect ending. I havent played past the first one.
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I got excited for a second and thought there was going to be a center tag in literature.
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`yuumei pretty much sums my thoughts on this. Are you creating, writing for yourself? Yes? Then don't let anyone alter what you do. Are you creating, writing for someone else? Yes? Then maybe that "someone else" has expectations you should take into account.
I would never expect an artist to change something he has done, to edit an ending or to bring back to life a supposedly dead character because his fans demand it. I would, however, never hesitate to criticize something to the death if I don't like it. I seriously wanted to commit genocide when I read the last Harry Potter book, and even though I would never ask Rowling to entirely rewrite it, I never miss an opportunity to complain about it. That's just how it should go : if you hate something, say it. It's up to the author to figure out what he wants to do with what you have to say.
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the only thing i can really say anything about is question 5.
the ending of ME3 left me with no desire for playing it through again . i was unbelievable disappointed in the ending.
i use games, books, comics and films for inspiration, but after that ending there was no inspiration, it was like it all just vanished.
the ending was bad, in so many ways that i can't explained. but there was rumors before that it wasn't the real ending, and that there was gonna be something more.. THAT was what pissed me off . it would be like reading a trilogy of books, get to the end, and release that you were missing the last three chapters, and you had to pay for them.
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the end of mass effect was not that bad, at least they are giving us some closure this summer for free.
as the author of sacreligous: a fantasy noir novel i dont deal with editors that want to change my vision of things, but if my readers would like to see some things diffrently i would take them in account,
the changing of the turtles is just wrong, thats like rewriting the lord of the rings where they use the birds to get to mordor and toss the ring in
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