HeirXOfXShadows In reply to ??? [2012-04-23 02:43:00 +0000 UTC]

thanx, i guess people got their way and now they probably feel even more entitled cuz they gave them what they wanted

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leo-darkheart In reply to ??? [2012-04-09 00:44:14 +0000 UTC]

On some level yes fans should have some say. But if they don't put any restrictions on how much say we can have it'd be a complete deluge of chaos ending in nothing getting accomplished because we ALL have so many different views that no real majority on things could ever happen. Yes they should listen to us but at the end of the day the creators, publishers, writers, directors, etc must make their own decision on what and how things are produced for the mass consumer public. But there in lies the problem you give some people a little power and it goes to their heads... So on the other hand keeping fans out of things, could be the best solution. Like there are alot of nostalgia nuts who are up in arms against the Man of Steel movie either because of an actor, the director or the suit. Which in my awesome opinion is the best thing to have happened to it in years. But that's my point nit picky fans wanting to change things could derail something that would be totally awesome just to have their selfish way. So now I actually say, fans should just stay out of things and do as they've always done and write the companies they are having issues with to express their grievances.

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Tjips In reply to ??? [2012-04-09 00:42:05 +0000 UTC]

Can I just add a case in point to the discussion? This might be a topic you guys dismiss often as many f-word toting 14yo kids throw it in everywhere, but Minecraft is actually an extremely good example of a game successfuly developed with user input. Granted, that input was not geared toward colaboratively creating a narrative of setting for a story, but rather for the creation of a world, but I think the process by which it happened is a very good example of what this article is talking about.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. I don't really get too deep about art as I'm a more pragmatic kind of guy, so this is how far my insights probably go . Ok, ciao guys...

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Ravenwoodwitch In reply to ??? [2012-04-09 00:31:30 +0000 UTC]

You know what stinks about this? Bioware is being punished for being unique. They stick to what they want to do, their own ideas and even LISTEN to it's adoring public when they make the next game. And what do we do when see an ending we don't like? We demand that they write our ending. We demand that our opinions be a prime source of input.

What's next? A demand for part of the profit?

Now I've never seen the ending of Mass effect three, but I do know what it's like to demand change. I yearned for a third option in Dragon age 2 but that's not demanding an ending, that's demanding Bioware cover their bases and tell three stories instead of two. I don't demand change, I demand more!

This isn't the future of storytelling. This is a future where authors and artists lose what makes their product theirs. I recommend the rest of you stick to fanfiction if something displeases you.

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Shas-O-Suam In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 23:48:00 +0000 UTC]

Mass Effect 3 is wrong on many levels. It's not just the players feeling entitled - the whole deal with the ending would not exist if it wasn't for the promises of wildly different outcomes, depending on your actions. Instead, almost all your choices are thrown out of the window and you are left with three - coloured explosions. It doesn't provide any closure, it is full of plot holes, and likely a strategy of the EA overlords to leave the game possibly open - ended. Whereas Mass Effect 2 have managed to indeed create vastly different situation in the endgame, so much so that they had different cinematics showing the result of how well you prepared for the final mission. And in ME3, you don't see any variation, you always see the same armies fighting, and they are only the compulsory ones - aside of the fleets arriving, you don't see Geth, Quarian, Terminus Mercs or Batarians fighting on the surface. And then there is the Citadel, god's child and it's argument about fight between the organic and synthetic lifeforms, where some of us just came back from uniting the Geth and the Quarians. There is the question of Normandy's escape, and we are given no insight as to what happened afterwards. Now we find out that the Extended Cut DLC will not change anything, only expand on the existing ending. The sad part of that is, that there was once a way out, the "Shepard Indoctrination Theory" which actually made a lot of sense, but Bioware preaches "artistic integrity". I probably wouldn't even mind that, but frankly they have none. They sold themselves (or rather the way I hear it - Casey Hudson did) to their EA masters and now are focused purely on making money. How else do you explain the multiplayer being a vital part of single - player campaign? Sure, you can buy pre - owned copy of the game, but now you'll have to buy an online pass because otherwise you won't be able to complete the game. And the multiplayer wears really thin, really fast, especially if you aren't a die - hard Mass Effect fan.
And so I have read an article in which it turns out that the ending was written by Casey Hudson himself, with the rest of the writing team shut away - so we are told by some of the Bioware staff. How is this in any way artistically integral? This is not so much about fans feeling entitled, as much as being outright lied to, being cheated and deceived, all to make money. And in such case, after they have made a bloody icon out of Commander Shepard, they should not be surprised if we expect them to deliver on their promises.

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sirkrozz In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 23:45:04 +0000 UTC]

If there is something the modern videogame industry has shown in general, was the disrespect for art and artists, and on the long term, for his audience.
There are plenty of tales involving half-baked projects that would have been great if it wasn't for the annoying investors. The only thing we can get for certain is that most products we've purchased are, on the better scenarios, almost-finished artistic creations.

We got a handful of stories about underpaid translators, designers and writers, big head honchos not even caring for localization or proof-reading things, lame designs on cover arts which ruined several reputations on the road and so on.

I think audience should be heard when thinking on ways of further expanding on different media and/or sequels given but just up to that point.
If the outcome is not natural and aims to please everybody then things won't go well.

Capcom and their recent Mega Man trolling should have also been included here.

What the industry needs right now anyway, is another crash, even bigger than the 83'.
Things are just getting worse, and we're almost there.

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rockinblue1100 In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 23:37:17 +0000 UTC]

While I enjoy game releases that have strong narrative and have been planned out without the demands from the fans, I have to say that certain games should perhaps be influenced by the fans. Particularly series games, but only the design element of the game.
For example DMC fans were extremely annoyed at the change of Dante's appearance in the new dmc5 game, similarly the appearance of Desmond in the Assassin's Creed games.
However storytelling in games should be left to the pros because when fans influence something they try to make it their own and individual to them which simply cannot be done for a mass released game.

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Thiamor In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 23:36:25 +0000 UTC]

If it WERE NOT for the consumers, they would not have products. It's as fucking simple as that.

They need to have the say on what they became fans with, in the first place. If they didn't become fans, the product would fail. Thus, the FANS are the companies money makers.

So obviously, if they don't want feed back, or change, who the fuck are they making this for, other than themselves? If they are making it just for them, they shouldn't release it to the public.

It's as simple as that, and anyone who argues with it, knows NOTHING about how a business works.

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MaxHitman In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 23:24:57 +0000 UTC]

This is a very interesting read, thanks for your time in putting it out and reading the diferent points of view on this matter.
You know, I am still upset when the creators of TombRaider locked up Lara Croft inside a Piramid with no way of getting her out. She was forever locked inside her own adventure. That kind of spoiled the whole ending for THAT particular game and its whole franchise a few years back. But , life goes on, its ONLY a game and as Drew McWeeny (HitFix) said it so well... " They don't "owe" you anything. They make a product, and then you decide if you're going to pay for it. // They make. You consume."
So this is and will always be something that we will all have to deal with throughout our lives. But like I said, its only a game and its only a movie. Take it for what it is, good or bad, it is not worth fighting over it or crying over it. Because afterall, your life is not on the line because of it. Its not real life and things that a person must worry too much about.
If it really really mattered to me, I would call out for a whole complete re-script and re-writing of the King Kong movie Story and have that cool monkey survive his ordeal in the city of New York!! LOL ( Hey, I liked that monkey)
"No my friends, it was not us or the airplanes that killed the ape...It was Beauty that killed the Beast."

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World-Hero21 In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 23:10:05 +0000 UTC]

As an author myself, I do listen to my audience's opinions on my story. Many of them give me suggestions on where to go from one story-arc to another, if I'm stuck and desperately need feedback to figure out what to do next in the story. But I don't rely on their feedback all the time. Only if I feel like it's necessary to add in an idea from the audience.

Once, a few of my readers really wanted to see more of a minor character in one of my books. I was planning on revealing more about the character much later on the story, but since I knew I didn't really give much insight to her when I first introduced her, I decided to show a bit more of the character later in the book.

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Nicthalur In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 23:09:22 +0000 UTC]

As a reader or viewer (of movies, TV shows, videogames, art, etc.) do you feel a sense of entitlement giving you the right to not only criticize but actually demand changes be made to a disappointing work?
No, I don't. I have the right to be disappointed, but nobody can please everyone all the time.

TMNT or TANT?
TMNT. While I fully support the creators of something to change it, I do not think that making radical, core changes to a back story by someone who has no intellectual investment in the story should be done. Look what happened when Shyamalan made such simple changes to The Last Airbender as how the names are pronounced and making Aang a brooding preteen chump instead of the free-spirited scamp his fans loved. For Bay to come in and change the turtles from mutants to aliens, while making allowances for more turtles, is a betrayal of the core material, regardless of fan reaction. (I personally think that it is the sheer amount of freedom that producers have to deviate from source material that doomed Eragon.)

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Odomi2 In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 23:07:04 +0000 UTC]

I think that the original one should not be changed since it is that way the piece has to be. Some people will like it some will not...
I think is because of this, that bioware will not change the end of ME3 but expand it.
I say this: if you don´t like the book, then don´t recommend it.. but please don´t try to change it xDDD

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FukurouKimihiro In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 23:06:50 +0000 UTC]

1.a. Hell yes! One of my friends sometimes takes the pencil right out of my hand to change something!
1.b. Yes. In one of the stories I wrote, the main character was going to die at the end. But my grandmother didn't want that to happen, and so I changed it.
1.c. Uh, sometimes, when the movie sucks. (i.e. THE LIGHTNING THIEF MOVIE!)
2. Move the second one, but also partly the first.
3. Sometimes. I'm new, so nothing has really happened.
4. I plan on reading all of these.
5. Haven't played/read/watched any of these.

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Aceykunn In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 23:04:36 +0000 UTC]

People, If it someone's story, then they should alter it at will. if they decided to incorperate some of the reader's ideas into it then let them but they shouldn't be hounded to change it because this is their story with their plot and their ideas. Let the characters follow the path that the author chooses. Readers and critics could point out little mistakes and that is all if they want to fix the story then that is what is called 'fanfiction' many versions of the story could be made and the author would not cave underneath the pressure allowing them to continue their story.

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BlackStagPublishing In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 23:03:47 +0000 UTC]

This is a tough question. I have every console Mass Effect game loved the every one but the ending to three almost made me return it out right, but i understand that it is their IP so they end it anyway they wish. However, the fanbase should have some gratification for sticking through it to the end.

On the movie front, when someone makes a movie based on a popular franchise then they should keep the core elements intact. The recent 2011 movie priest is a good example the manga is a story set in the early 19th century American West about a former priest that harbors the spirit of a fallen angel who is on a quest of revenge and redemption. The movie is a post-apocalyptic western against vampires. The Only element they kept is the western theme to a point. Other than that is not Priest.

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pballooned In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 23:02:00 +0000 UTC]

I would hear my audience, but only do what they ask if a) a lot of people ask it, and b) I like it.
If a massive amount of people want something I do not like with my characters, I would look for an intermediate point. Like by instance, a romance between two of my characters that I never intended to act that way. I would have one hypnotised and fall in love with the other by instance, but this wouldn't be forever, only temporary. That would sell (because a lot of people asked it), and I would still have the control I wanted over the characters.
If I'm not mistaken, these Mario and Sonic games came out because an inmense amount of people wanting it. I don't think the owners of the franchises would have thought of it otherwise. Anyway, making money is always good for future, more elaborated, projects or experiments.

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cajunattack In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 23:00:59 +0000 UTC]

Personally, I would rather not have an entertainment product changed for the sake of moaning fans. Unless it is intrinsically broken at it's core, the product will be enjoyed by some people even if the majority does not like it.

The creators of the product- even if the original vision has become corrupted by the commercialism of the studio execs- are then to blame if the product misses the mark dramatically with the fans. Failure is always the best way to learn and I would rather have faith that the creators would then produce something better as a whole, rather than tailor an existing thing to the whims of a fanbase, leading to a diluted and forced version of the original vision.

And if movies or videogames fail miserably and the studios lose money and decide to Not reboot the product, hopefully this would leave a hole in the market for someone to come along with something better, built from the ground up.

And shit, if you're a forum whore and are gonna moan so much about something, spend the energy instead learning how to do it yourself.

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A-413 In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 22:41:44 +0000 UTC]

Should you listen to your audience?

HECK NO. wut r u thinking?!

It's because these people listen to their audience so much that they screw up the storyline. I'm positive if they stuck to the story as originally intended instead of focusing on the pressure from all the hype and popularity they have, the storylines wouldn't fail so much.

Of course there'll be complaints as with every fandom. Some people are so drowned in their own fandom fantasies that they can't tolerate it when they find out the real characters and story are nothing like that.

But at the same time, an appreciation and form of respect is developed for the authors for NOT kneeling down to fans and accepting that but staying true to their original ideas. It's then where you can sit back and really try to contemplate the story. Like reading a good mystery or horror novel, the ending should never be like what you want or expect it to be 100%. It should be something that will leave a lasting impression on you even AFTER you put the book down.

The best books you've read are from authors who did what they felt was best. Not those who felt they had to make an effort to please each and every person on the planet, which we know is not possible. All the games with sucky stories and plots are clear results of what happens when you try too hard to be popular and cater to what the trends are. Trends are trends sure, but trends never last. It pays off to be unique and have your own style despite what other people say.

Want an example?

Silent Hill.

The first 3 volumes: omg so unique. so original. so awesome. nothing like this before. we love it.

Every volume after that, trying to cater to the masses of fandom and mooch off the fanchise's name has slowly gone down the drain. Now instead of trying to stand out with more unique ideas, they're trying too hard to cling to the popularity and expectations and feedback of fans only to make them even MORE upset.

At the end of the day, do your own thing. the best games had that mind set. It's when you listen to the fans and try to let them write the story for you that you'll fail. Silent Hill games, I like the whole series. But even I'm not going to lie and say the storylines are "improving" because in truth they're not. lol

And this is a million times for Final Fantasy. End of story. rofl

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line-melte In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 22:20:02 +0000 UTC]

Okay, I've read most of this, so I think I get the gist....

My main opinion on the matter is that fans desire to have serious input in the creation of the object of their fandom is very much a sense of entitlement I think. It's like riding on coattails. If they had a big enough pair of creative balls then they'd be creators, not audience members.

On the flipside, it is incredibly frustrating when one sees tastless corporate idiots, like Hollywood seems to be almost entirely populated with, fucking around with extant material and turn what could have been great into a banal, inane cash-cow.

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AGENTofCHAOS-6 In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 22:13:32 +0000 UTC]

i don't like that fans made the makers of M.E3 tap out n change the ending, its a product which you paid for, you can only give an opinion, praise it or hate, it's as if the fans wanted so badly for the M.E trilogy to be the best n most memorable or something, yes it is up to us to decide, but for goodness sakes what are you accomplishing after getting that good ending??? this is unfortunate and stupid, a waste of time and money just so a bunch of fans can say "ahhh now that's a good enough ending", I am curious though had they not changed the ending would those fans still be fans? coz
P.S i loved the harry potter ending and final battle, could have been a tad bit longer between harry n voldemort, but all in all awesome peace

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morphindel In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 22:12:18 +0000 UTC]

I am a big believer that the artists original story/vision should be respected in terms of writing so long as it is in keeping with the established tone, continuity and inner logic of the work preceding it. In the case of Mass Effect 3 the writers did not do this. Apparently (though i am not certain) they changed the original ending because the script was leaked. This lead to them giving the player an ending that not only broke all of the established rules mentioned, but also took the control and choice away from the player, and the character they had spent 90+ hours with. The important element of choice set up in the first and second game was replaced by 3 'choices' that were all equally ineffectual and illogical. Not only that, they broke the simplest rules of writing as well. Establishing a new character who is both antagonist and protagonist simultaneously within the games climax is simply poor narrative content.
The difference between gaming and other artistic mediums is that the gamer is involved in the gameplay; in an RPG universe that prides itself on cause and effect and relationships we are also emotionally involved, and not just a passive observer as in other artistic mediums. To suddenly force the player into an ending that makes their efforts, time and investment worthless is insulting and a complete cheat. Die-hard Mass Effect fans (like myself) know why we don't like the ending and it isn't because it is too sad, depressing or even obscure; it is the complete breakdown in logic and consistency. I think Bioware and/or EA OWE their fans the ending(s) we have been promised over 5 years, and not a poor excuse for "artistic vision". The fact they are too stubborn to even fully change the ending instead of using it as a learning curve and evolving from it is not a hopeful step of progress for the writing and development team.
Game developers need to be the most receptive to fan criticisms. Cinema, books and music can be judged on their own merits. We can see a film and either like it or not, we have not invested as much time into it and most is open to individual interpretation. That is the other advantage developers have; the ability to go back and correct their mistakes where they can. If it is more or less universally agreed their ending is illogical and restricted then they certainly should

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sulfur-angel In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 21:56:59 +0000 UTC]

There has been one incident where a reader asked me to alter a piece of work. However, their request was more along the lines of writing a sequel (or prequel, actually) to the short story I had written. It's basically turning a one-shot into a two-shot, so I'm not sure my experience actually applies to the current situation. I was considering acting upon it, as it was an interesting request, but then, like with most things, I got distracted, and then forgot about it.

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Tenawa In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 21:48:52 +0000 UTC]

I love you!!!!!! Awesome article!

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MoontheMew In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 21:47:02 +0000 UTC]

Hm.....as a writer (or rather future writer) I do appreciate criticism but not "Oh you have to change it around completely and/or a few things." A story is a story and sometimes certain plots and twists are needed in order to make the story successful. Like the Harry Potter series.

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bloodmoongraphics In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 20:44:20 +0000 UTC]

I have never played Mass Effect3 so i may be wrong about its status, please bare with me, this isnt just about this one game or topic. If you fork over the money for something that is advertised one way but once you see it and see that it isnt what was advertised then you have the right to demand something demand change. Truthfully users should have more pull where the game goes because users essentially pay for their production. Obviously user input is critical for many peoples storytelling but there are far too many opinions to fully take into account and many of those either contradict or go against the whole idea. Its hard to envision something, put out a whole story-line then have to change something especially a tiny issue but sometimes its necessary for the sake of a great story, that why these companies need to get opinions and ideas early on, and im sure some may do that. I cant say Iv had many comments on my novel, its unpublished after all, but those that have expressed opinions or other ideas, helped me decided to change points about something that was a genuine valid idea, either way I weighed the options but i always respected each comment. I am both a writer and artist, and im surely willing to accept criticism is it helps make what im creating better! I apologize if I got off topic on anything.

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CirJohn In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 20:35:01 +0000 UTC]

This is simple.

If you want to have a story end the way you like it, then write it yourself. If you don't like someone the quality of someone else's stories, then stop buying them.

We live in an evolving market, and profit is the only survival trait. If you keep feeding money to bad companies, then you will see more bad products. If you use some self-restraint and stop buying bad products, then bad companies will improve or die.

Instead of rushing out to buy the midnight release (like the rest of the lemmings), why not wait a few days and check out the product reviews? You will save money and the bad companies will suffer.

In any case, no one in the free world has the right to tell anyone else what to say. Attempting to force someone to change a story's ending is oppression at its best. Maybe next they'll tell us to change the Mona Lisa's smile.

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Strategazer In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 20:32:58 +0000 UTC]

In my opinion, there are certain points on both sides that are valid and others that aren't. Basically, when you present a story, a game, a movie, or any kind of art, take in mind what is it you want to accomplish. Do you make this story because you want to, because it's what you want to do and how you want your story to be, or do you make your story to entertain your public, to give them something to like and enjoy?

This depends completely on the author, but the main point is that, if you make a story simply for your own entertainment, opinions from other people will most likely not influence you at all, but if what you are making is something made to be distributed and seen by the public masses, you should take into account what the people want as well. Don't let the fans take complete control of a story that is yours, but don't ignore the voice of the ones your work is aimed at either.

The most important thing to have in mind, however, is that the fans' opinion and criticism will be based on what changes YOU made to the story. Making a complete, giant change of the main plot or completely ignoring the continuity of the whole storyline is the same as walking into a raging battlefield with a giant sign saying "Shoot me!". An example is the right now popular problem with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. In short and simple terms, changing the plot of the story completely in comparison to the prequels and previous installments defeats the purpose of it being a "series". Don't make everything be the same all the time, but don't drift too far from the source material and remember the things that came first. If the idea is getting too far away from the original content, you might as well make it a completely new story instead of making it a different setting to an already existant story.

Forgive any spelling or grammar mistakes, and any misusage of words was completely unintentional.

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Soulburned In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 20:25:33 +0000 UTC]

1. Absolutely, not just as a visual artist but also for orchestral composition. I don't have a "fanbase" so the critics are friends and the like, but seemingly everyone has an opinion. It's up to me ultimately to decide what input to listen to and what to ignore if it clashes with the core of the idea or breaks rules in some way that I don't feel like compromising.
I'm writing my first novel and I've eagerly sought out opinions and tips from all my close friends who are willing to read my incremental updates on chapters. In this regard i've had very little useful feedback that has directly criticized changes to storytelling or the story itself. When it comes to consuming media, when I see or play it for the first time I manage to somehow set down all my production prose and critical thinking hat and just absorb and get into the story. I've been moved by many a movie (however unrealistic or comical) and found the ones that resonate with me are the ones that have a strong core moral, some sort of human emotion they play on. I've never felt the urge to protest a particular film or novel etc. just because i was unhappy with the way they did something. At the end of it I either walk away satisfied by the journey it took me on, or in deep thought about comparing life to it.

2. If there's something that doesn't really tickle my fancy and grab my interest, I don't buy it. I believe more often than not people buy into the hype, psyche themselves out, or just plain invest too much emotionally, for them to get so critical as to reach the point of protesting and public outrage over aspects of something they did not like even though they may have utterly enjoyed the rest. That to me is like claiming you'd go abroad just to see Paintings like The Mona Lisa and then demand that someone print out a photoshopped copy with the sharpening tools to enhance the detail because you were disappointed in it's clarity.

3. Nowadays, my "audience" is solely responsible for any success, so if i'm still developing a story, then yes I absolutely want to know what appeals to people. I don't feel however that I should completely rewrite a core idea or mechanism to the story just because a portion of my audience however big feels it shouldn't go that way.

4. I stumbled upon Romantically Apocalyptic a few months back and it's amazing to see the narrative and the interaction with the author and audience. I have yet to see such a connection with other fields of authorship yet as these benefit from being a serial blog of sorts. I've always been to busy to attach myself to other intellectual properties in ways that allow me to express my opinion of their works but I can imagine that people feel this bridges the gap between being a consumer and being a collaborator.

5. I own all 3 mass effect games for PC. I have to say after playing them all I thoroughly enjoyed the story most of all. I have yet to finish the 3 but after hearing all the commotion about ME3's ending I had to go see for myself what it was people were so outraged about, and honestly I still don't get it. I found a few youtube videos of the various endings and I thought it was epic, and appropriate for the story. But I guess that coming from someone who enjoys a story over gameplay I never fully immersed myself and felt so "personally invested". In that regard I can imagine if people are spending a portion of their lives playing these games to the point where they feel they've become the commander in some sense, the notion that you are not completely in control of your own destiny (in game) would break the illusion that has been built up because suddenly you're sucked back into a sort of linearity devised by the creators of the story.

No one wants to die, but I believe if people were really engrossed in the story and not just involved in the gameplay and getting to roam around the virtual reality and do as you wish, the transformation of coming to that point should have been apparent. My novel (heaven forbid i spoil it) has a very similar ending for the main character. He realizes self sacrifice is the only way to bring balance to the turmoil and serve the best purpose in the reality I'm creating. My intention in the story is that as you get invested as a reader in connecting with the character, and just as he's starting to find more reasons to live than not, the circumstances and clarity resolve for him (not you the reader) that he must end his life to save the others, and in doing so defeat the antagonist's goals. I want my readers to be upset, he shouldn't have to die because it's an injustice. I also want them to feel like vengeance is being served to the antagonist and actually get up and say "fuck yea, take that asshole!" (proverbially). If I can make my audience react that way then I did what I set out to do. I wonder if Bioware / EA had the intention to make their audience react with such controversy.

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Axe-Canabrava In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 19:37:06 +0000 UTC]

The right to change it? Not. The right to reject it, bitch about it and refuse to put their money into it? Most certainly!

It's much like Tim Burton's Superman: nobody would deny his right to write Superman like a semitransparent Frankenstein, but the big question is "will people want to watch it"? People want Bay to change his movie because it's not the Turtles they want to watch. Simple like that.

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H3M In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 19:30:28 +0000 UTC]

There is a beginning middle and an end, now bringing a completly new script to the TMNT is WRONG!!!
The market can be explored but with roots on the original 100%, its gonna be another zombie killer or alien species kind of line...its wrong.

The fans love it, like I do because it was different, if the new generation can build new graphics, by all means update them but never the entire story line!!!!

But I have to say that the gore or samurai killing and fighting it will make it more serious, not much teenage anymore...it should just be called NINJA TURTLES!!!

The biggest success its BATMAN,why? Because it follows the script and innovates at the same time.

Will wait and see.

SALUTE

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Ravenwoodwitch In reply to gant12000 [2012-04-09 00:21:50 +0000 UTC]

Alright-so you've effectively eliminated Steinbeck's point about how the innocent pay for the deeds of the wicked around that time: oh, and did I mention that if George hadn't shot Lenny, Curly and the others would have violently killed him anyway? With dogs. Oh sweet Irony...

So no star-crossed lovers either? So you don't want both families to finally be shown what evil their hatred of each other has wrought? You don't want the message that hate is ultimately the killer of love? Shame on you.

I dearly hope you were being sarcastic.

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gant12000 In reply to Ravenwoodwitch [2012-04-09 01:03:21 +0000 UTC]

i was, but thank you for reading my post.

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Ravenwoodwitch In reply to gant12000 [2012-05-05 05:32:53 +0000 UTC]

Hm...well don't I feel sheepish.

Sorry ><, I'm terrible at reading sarcasim in posts.

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the3dmaster11 In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 18:53:46 +0000 UTC]

this was a little boring but i love the artwork

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fmilluminati In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 18:39:39 +0000 UTC]

I haven't finished the Mass Effect series yet, but regardless of how disappointing the ending is, I think a storyteller generally has the creative license to tell their story however they see fit. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

That being said, I like how Drew McWeeny adds a juvenile, pathetic, loser whine about "illegal downloading" to his comment, even though it's completely not relevant to the subject. It just shows how desperately out of touch the gaming industry is with their customers, and it highlights exactly why people DL games without paying. At this point, it's just fun to stick it to those b*tchy, self-righteous little losers that work at places like EA.

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BahamutDeusModus In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 18:20:14 +0000 UTC]

I enjoy writing stories in a novel form, and though I haven't yet been able to spread my story out for others to see and critique it, I already know that I'll value their input. However, I look at stories as already created, and that the author is just able to bring it to life in this world. You cannot change the characters in a story just like you cannot change a person in real life. The characters make the story, more than anything else, and if your fan base wants these two characters to end up together, or that one to come back to life, then how can you do that to please them when you know it has no place in your story?
Point is, you should stick to the essence of the story; there will always be someone out there who wants to read the true story. Besides, I respect those who can write an entire story without diverging from it when a large fan base has so many different expectations for their characters. Take the Final Fantasy series, for example; so many fans complain about certain characters not getting together in a romantic relationship, or that this character died and didn't come back to life, or even how the entire story played out and ended. And yet, I appreciate being able to see the 'true' characters, and not see them take a personlity change becuase the fans thought it would be awesome or they just simple wanted to see it.
I believe it's a good idea to listen to what your fans have to say, for maybe they could point somethig ou that you yourself didn't see until they showed you it. But if you try and force your characters to go i the directions that the fans want them to, then the characters are distorted, and no longer who they used to be, and that will undoubtably mess the entire story up. I want to see the truth, not fan-based pleasures, as much as I like to dream or contemplate on how things would have been if something else happened. I know what it's like to want the characters of a story, game, or movie to do something different than what they do, but I also want to see 'them', and in the end I like seeing who they really were.

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knightmonx In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 18:06:33 +0000 UTC]

The reality of this is that people who have money to make mainstream movies tv and comics are going to do what they want regardless of what people want.
The reason for this is simply The arrogance and indifference of said "Mainstream" artists and writers. And lax of moral of the Snob investor.
They use the internet and free downloads regardless of the media being legal or not as excuses to the idea that they will not pay for it anyways so f-you consumer.
And try to censor the internet to control "free ideas" as a way to limit the market and only make money for themselves.
These people are greedy self centered a-hols who will put no new ideas because "new" is unprofitable. And demand every last penny for they terrible products.
In fact every entertainment aspect the industry is set up as screw the little guy.
Cable tv, forces people to pay for commercial fattened shortened tv shows, edited movies, and extra fees for premium content, most of which is controlled so much that even fast forward is turned off. That and the product is filled with porn or violent contents l all about death.
Movies, produce nothing but vulgar, snuff and pornographic filled flops or reruns that cost millions of dollars of loss because most people don't want to stare at shit for 90 mins.
They even charge for reruns that are in eye straining 3d. Or Make movies parts for more money.
Videogames charge you hundreds of dollars more for ever piece of content that should be in the game in the first place.
Music is filled with the same lyric and beat over and over, of filled with hate filled or violent lyrics.
Even the internet if filled with profane joke and harmful illimitable acts.
This is what the so called talented people put out, and people still buy this crap.
I recommend people wise up and boycott. If i see any commercial i boycott that product or service. If the fanatical control doesn't get funded they don't stay in buisness.
So no people have given up their rights, and studios and corporations are happy to ignore talented ideas for reruns or "profitable" sequel making sagas.

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Asrath In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 17:47:12 +0000 UTC]

1) Not yet luckily. I might change things, or make an alternate version, if the fans "wishes" are on my wavelength so to speak. I would NEVER change something against my will or make it so that it'll become "popular". I make art I like, and if others like it too I'm nothing but very flattered by it.

2)My investment is based on my head and heart. My love for the things I create, or at least TRY to create (since my creations are very much imperfect, especially compared to the image that is in my mind). I am still quite young, and I don't earn money with my art or anything. If I COULD earn money with it, I would do it, but that's not my goal. And then of course I would still continue doing what I'm doing now: drawing, painting, photographing, writing, with love and passion, nothing else.

3)If I like their suggestions, and it fits with the theme, etc. etc.; yes. If not; never!
But I will at least always consider it. And never, ever, do something that doesn't fit me and my art, but is just for the pleasing of the audience.

4)Yea, at least it makes them feel more "normal" people, not just some holy gods who are the almighty creators of some great series (which I love by the way ).

5)Never played it, sorry

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sorwen In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 17:44:29 +0000 UTC]

Great article. It hits well the point.
1. B) As a writer yes and no. Because what I write is often interactive it makes it important to listen. The point is that people enjoy it. If the enjoy it then I've done what I meant to do.
C) As a reader yes and no. I'm making an investment. I get really into my reading just as much as I get into anything I write. What I'm entitled to isn't a story that only goes the way I want, but one that is consistent with the the story that came before. I'm entitled to the character acting as they've been established because that is why I pick up the second, third, fourth book. It isn't about characters never changing, there is no story without growth, but about staying true to what made me care for those characters in the first place. That is what digusts me and sickens me. I've totally drop an author because of this. They no longer deserve my investment of money and time. Again not because I don't like how the story went, but because they lost touch with what they created. I see this most in books where the author has left a story for too long.

"Entitlement" is a poor word because it has come to mean to most(especially in art) solely a demand with no justification for it. It is used to marginalize people that disagree or are upset and in turn deify the accuser as if they are automatically in the right. That isn't the case in the least. Some entitlement come from the covenant between the artist and the audience when working with something already established. Whether it be the same author or a next. In a situation where the audience is paying for your work they are your patron. That gives them a certain amount of justifiable entitlement that can't be marginalized by trying to claim "artistic integrity". In terms of Mass Effect this is even bigger because as was pointed out the promise was of an ending we created by the choices we've made over years. To have that promise and not deliver is the biggest breach between the "artist" and the audience they claimed they were creating for.

5) I put off buying ME because I couldn't get the collectors edition. And since I more spoiled by a bad ending more than knowing an ending I've read up on everything I could about ME's ending. The only worse ending than those BioWare gave would have been for Commander Shepard to have blown his brains out right before the ending. I'm glad I wasn't able to get the collectors edition because I would hate to feel that I had been tricked into giving them money.

As to TMNT it is one of those situations I find highly ridiculous. If you are going to change so much about a story that it begins to no longer resembles the original except for superficially, why be so petty and tacky to use its name and premise in the first place. It seems spiteful to do it. As if the new artist hates those that gave meaning to that name and story in the first place. Because if people had not chosen to support and therefore give meaning to its use in the first place then there would be no reason to use it.

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BuffyJayne In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 17:40:43 +0000 UTC]

1) As a consumer, I believe that the creator of whatever they've made should take into account the opinions of the effected audience. If they twist the story of any beloved character (for example Sonic the Hedgehog), and the audience is displeased with the outcome, the creator should be aware of all and any changes that he or she can make to make the work better. You can't just toss a piece of shit on a plate and call it art. It's just not possible.

2) My entitlement is due to both. I have both spent exuberant amounts of money and time on certain series, and I have had my head and my heart stuck in certain realms in these series.

3) It depends. If someone tells me they want me to change my art, just because it's a pairing they don't like or it's a show they don't like, well then sorry. I'm not going to change my art just because you think that show sucks! But if my audience believes that I could have done something to make my art more pleasing, then I'm all for it! I just don't want to be every little Dick and Sally's bitch to control and make their slave.

4)Yes. It's good to have a connection with an author or an artist, so you can fully understand their meaning! If you just went into RA out of the blue without your head and your heart in it, you wouldn't be as drawn into the characters. It's just not fun if you don't want to put effort into understanding the author's/artist's meaning.

Yes. Authors and artists need feedback in order to survive in this world. Without it, they wouldn't know what to do with themselves. So you can help feed their creative needs by praising them, or telling them what's wrong with what they did.

Sometimes. I haven't really seen any good fanart or fanfiction that would be a perfect tie-in for an online story or webcomic.

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iloveportalz0r In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 17:22:08 +0000 UTC]

There is a spelling error here:
"or laugh at a joke in a late nght talk-show host monologue"

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Lyzer In reply to iloveportalz0r [2012-04-08 19:16:37 +0000 UTC]

i love this ice breaker.

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iloveportalz0r In reply to Lyzer [2012-04-08 23:18:16 +0000 UTC]

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xstarrx In reply to ??? [2012-04-08 17:15:59 +0000 UTC]

I think the best advice I've ever been given came from Daniel Dociu. I had the honor of a phone interview with him when I was still in college. He told me that universities are teaching artists and writers to be service providers (this is a bad thing). If you only ever give people what they ask for, you give them nothing. People are naturally curious to know what goes on inside YOUR head, so do YOUR work and the public will respond.

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