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TeknicolorTiger In reply to Uneclipsed [2013-03-20 04:07:50 +0000 UTC]

lol Thank you. They're so much fun.

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to QuebecoisWolf [2013-03-20 00:20:20 +0000 UTC]

Hayden has a lot of variety in his expressions. I just like drawing him grinning. And don't be fooled by that placid expression, the slightly furrowed brow ridge says he's definitely contemplating something no doubt malign. XD Most of the real expression in his face comes from his eyes and brow. The grin is almost always artificial, almost more a nervous tick.

And Autumn doesn't mind hugs, she just doesn't like getting them from Hayden. Granted, if you were witness to a fraction of the horrible things he's done, you probably wouldn't love a hug from him either.

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QuebecoisWolf In reply to TeknicolorTiger [2013-03-20 01:09:26 +0000 UTC]

Actually, I assumed that the placid expression was the afterglow of some violent misdeed. And I can see that I'm going to have to pay more attention to his facial expressions in the future.

Having read enough of Hayden, I can only imagine that hugs would be unwelcome. And having read the RP log of him with Talo, I think that Hayden might not be playing with a full deck. Actually, I find your werewolves a lot of fun since there no real way to manage it. There's the two extremes of Hayden, who's a complete sociopath, Asher who hates himself and is so deep in denial that he turns into a mindless monster, or Autumn whose attempt to compromise isn't really working and there's no telling how she'll end up.

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to QuebecoisWolf [2013-03-20 04:23:34 +0000 UTC]

lol That could very well be. I should probably draw some expressions on my other characters. I draw Hayden so much you'd think he was my only one. XD

I'd say Hayden's fairly affectionate to those he genuinely respects. Hence, him hugging ABF when they met. Though with Autumn it's mostly just to make her uncomfortable. Secretly, he does respect her though, and would never actually hurt her, he's just in general a selfish prick.

And I'm really glad you find my characters fun. Those are all pretty accurate assessments, too. lol For the record, Asher does have some control over his wolf-personality, he's just more unstable than most. If the wolf is behaving (and, say, letting Asher have control of the werewolf body), it's because it wants to, not because of Asher himself. It's sorta like being lead around by a very large, very aggressive dog that's really only aggressive because it's bored and is locked in a room all the time.

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QuebecoisWolf In reply to TeknicolorTiger [2013-03-20 16:18:49 +0000 UTC]

Hayden's personality seems to lend itself to a lot of expressions that you don't normally have a chance to draw.

Having caught up on a number of RP logs (since we haven't seen "real" Hayden in action in Amber Peace yet), it is interesting to learn more about his worldview and how other characters see him. And then there's his relationship with Talo... The interesting thing about extreme sociopaths like Hayden is that the overwhelming majority of them value their lives more than anything else in the world. Hayden, however, just doesn't care if he gets killed, provided that he's having fun. As far as his relationship with Autumn goes, I think that it's part respect, but primarily the fact that she's the one conquest he can't have. He respects her too much to take her by force and knows that she's going to keep denying him. I don't think that Hayden actually wants her to give in and on some level, just enjoys chasing her. I also have suspicions that she allows Hayden to dabble in "good."

Poor Asher. I suppose that there may be some control, but from what little I've seen of him changed, he seems like a different being (and obviously quite aggressive). In one of my recent conversations online, we discussed why mindless berserk werewolves tend to kill the human's loved ones. One suggestion was that it was to get back at the human for bottling it up. Asher seems to have some of that vibe. But yeah, what he's doing to himself really isn't working. At least Autumn seems to be trying to understand Silence rather than just suppressing her.

Yes, I do kind of enjoy these discussions.

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to QuebecoisWolf [2013-03-20 23:41:53 +0000 UTC]

For some reason I never got around to posting the conclusion of that one scene with him, Talo, and Vasily. I should do that in a bit. Talo basically pushes him to a point of clarification regarding his motivations in life. I also was just generally pleased with his dialogue. XD It amuses me so much (and him as well) that other characters seem to view him as sort of a Saturday Morning cartoon villain who's greedy, selfish, and secretly dying for attention when he could care less about money and is as at home in the spotlight as he is behind the scenes. In fact, I'd say Hayden actually prefers being in charge but unseen for the most part. At the same time, he really enjoys being hands-on.

But anyway, you pretty much hit the nail on the head; Hayden doesn't really fear death, in fact he might welcome it. I figure that someone who has lived for as long and as fast as he has would probably relish the idea, but he just keeps putting it off because he's holding out for something new, something he hasn't seen before. And I think there's also that bit of fear of the unknown, though with Hayden it's probably more like apprehension - sorta like how you might have seen a machine work time and again but aren't sure about the specifics when you're put in charge of it and don't want to mess things up. He's contemplated suicide on more than one occasion and has come pretty close several times. But ultimately, it is all about him having fun and avoiding boredom and not having to think too hard about certain things. He tends to go in cycles in which he's fairly stoic, parties, but then will suddenly drop into coalesence and realize that something isn't right with what he does, how he feels, what's happening around him. Then he'll contemplate killing himself when killing others or fucking women doesn't work, only to have the notion evaporate once he starts trying to apply himself again. This usually involves him becoming obsessed with something random and trying to master it, usually it's a language, woodworking, writing, mechanics, something active and that requires concentration.

Also I'd say that's pretty accurate; your observation on him wanting Autumn, though it goes a bit deeper than that. >.> I really don't want to spoil anything further since we've talked quite a bit about my characters already (and thank you for that by the way. It's the highlight of my life when people show such interest in something I've created. X3) and I feel like I've done nothing but. lol If you really, really want to know the secret behind Hayden's motivations I can probably tell you over a Note since it'll probably be a long time before it's revealed in my novel. (Or you can read through the thread 'Road to Nowhere' in the forums though it isn't revealed until a bit later.) This aspects remains the same in both SnB and AP and is at the core of a lot of his issues, especially in his abnormal attachment to Autumn. I like to think that Hayden is a man of dualities; he comes across as having complete control, appears to be mostly if not completely self-aware, when a lot of his perceptions regarding reality become very ambiguous. You're sorta right when you say that Autumn allows him to dabble in "good", because in a way she is an anchor to all that. She reminds him a lot of the good aspects of his past and in a strange way satisfies what he felt he lost a long time ago. She's also one of the few women who seem to see him for what he is and isn't afraid to stand up to him when he's acting psychotic. She's been there for him when he's needed someone (even if he didn't realize he even needed someone) and they actually have a lot of interests in common. Hayden's seen much of the world and has done a lot of great things, and Autumn is fascinated by that. She loves history and it's awesome to her that she can talk to someone who's been there and done that. She appreciates his perspective even if it doesn't mirror her own. Hayden appreciates that she's so easy to talk to and shows a genuine interest in just about everything. Hayden may be a seducer and eater of women, but he's also an intellectual. An intelligent woman with an opinion is bound to last a lot longer in his boudoir than a woman who doesn't. And if not she better be really good in bed. lol Basically if you can keep his mouth moving in conversation, chances are he won't be using it to take a bite out of you.

In a lot of ways Autumn is enigmatic to him because he simply can't grasp someone not having a sex drive, especially a werewolf. And he can sense that she's attracted to him but fights it (please note SHE is attracted, not her wolf). As you can imagine it also amuses him to no end, and it's just a source of entertainment to tease her. Her wolf personality is also something sort of fascinating to him because it's so different from her human and doesn't act like a normal werewolf in a lot of ways, but that ties into my story so I'mma stop right there. lol

lol Everyone always says "Poor Asher". I don't really pity him any more as I know it's mostly if not completely his fault that he's been put in this position with his wolf-personality. He's aware of what he has to do, but he just doesn't want to do it. Where Hayden is the embodiment of Lust and Wrath, Asher's is that of Pride and Sloth. He values his dignity above all else and blames his wolf for everything that's gone sour in his life so he doesn't see why it's HE that should succumb. Autumn's sorta caught in the middle as she can see where both men are coming from. But unlike the other two, she knows that her wolf loves her and actually just wants to protect them from harm. Her wolf is Vanity and Wrath. I know that's probably really melodramatic but I think it's fun making such associations. XD The "wolf-personality" in your short story about the woman experimenting on herself made me think of Autumn's wolf. She's pretty vain in that way but also sort of in the manner that "Oh, I'm so beautiful and caring. I will protect you, Autumn, because you're so soft and helpless".

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QuebecoisWolf In reply to TeknicolorTiger [2013-03-21 03:26:09 +0000 UTC]

It didn’t take long for me to see Hayden as something more than a cartoon villain and now that I do, I’m not surprised that you’re so protective of him during RPs. Actually, I’m really interested to see where the Hayden x Talo thing goes. It’s also the sort of thing that’s likely to create a lot of tension between Hayden and ABF since Talo is a lot like ABF, if not a mirror image.

The most dangerous people are the ones who aren’t just unafraid to die, but want to die. That’s really what makes Hayden ultimately so dangerous – that he just doesn’t care. I didn’t know about his extreme mood swings, but I’m not surprised. I think that what stops him from suicide is that it’s so… boring. I think that he wants his death to be a surprise. Given that he’s so incapable of staying interested in anything, I’m surprised that he’s lasted this long.

No problem! They’re interesting characters. Whoa… “Road to Nowhere” is kind of a long RP. I’ll have to at least skim it though. Though I caught a comment on how his issues were rooted to the death of his sister. I’m a little shocked to see that Hayden has a conscience… sort of. Though to play Freud, I do notice that Hayden doesn’t like men at all, but has a range of emotions towards women. Even when they’re trying to kill him or he’s trying to kill them, we don’t see the visceral hatred that he projects onto men (Sieberling being the big example). I also have my doubts that Hayden really understands his feelings toward Autumn, since he can’t quite decide if she’s a little sister, an equal, or a sexual conquest. And I definitely got the sense that Hayden despises airheaded girls.

Actually, I got the sense that Silence likes Hayden less than Autumn does. But I did get the sense that Autumn isn’t a normal werewolf (at least not in AP).

Let me clarify: I meant “poor Asher” as in “wow, Asher’s life sucks.” I did get the sense that he brings it upon himself and his faith is just a way for him to repress everything rather than deal with it. Actually, I’ve never made these types of associations… no idea why and I certainly do see anything wrong with it. I haven’t talked about Marion in a while. I opted against giving Marion a separate wolf since she’s got a lot of screws loose to begin with and I thought it would make her seem too crazy. Though having written Marion, I feel sorry for Autumn to have something like that in her head. The interesting thing is that Autumn really doesn’t want the protection, she just wants to be left alone.

Though it’s interesting to me to think about having an inner beast like this. Most of the born werewolves of Trust think of humans as being terribly lonely and would view having their inner wolves removed as a fate worse than death.

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to QuebecoisWolf [2013-03-21 04:34:28 +0000 UTC]

It's not that he hates men, he just finds women more fascinating not to mention attractive. Most men he's met seem insecure around him and are always trying to one-up him somehow. Those that don't he either won't pay much attention to or might actually go out of his way to kill or beat up on, especially if they remind him of his father in some way, either conciously or unconsciously. He despises airheadedness in men as much as he does in women. I suppose he just hates weakness in general. His father was a very sick man/werewolf, and suffered from a brain disease that was slowly killing him. During the 1800s it wasn't uncommon to treat such things with various drugs such as cocaine and opium. His father used to purposefully leave these things out within reach of his children because he thought it was funny and then he would beat them as punishment. Hayden always saw his father as ultimately a very insecure and unstable person who wasn't fit to lead the family or family business (ironically, building mental institutions. Hayden's real last name, Whittingham, was inspired by the Whittingham insane asylum in England. It's no longer in service but it has some beautiful buildings that are still standing today.)

Hayden's had much more of a stronger history with women. He watched his real mother burn to death when he was six (they had fallen asleep together in the same bed when a candle was knocked onto some drapery that caught fire. When he woke up, she was engulfed in flames right next to him). He was neglected by his step-mother after that and only had his twin sister to look after him. In fact, she basically held all the siblings together even though she couldn't transform like regular werewolves. Anyway, Hayden has a very selective visceral hatred towards men. Most are just ants under his heel, a source of food that he doesn't find nearly as satisfying to pursue, or very rarely, semi-equals that demand respect. They're more potential servants than potential conquests, I guess.

I love how you developed Marion, actually. Very well written female character, especially a female werewolf character. And rather unusual in that regard. I could see the story having a place in an anthology of some kind. And it was interesting to me to read that about the wolves in Trust having that sort of relationship with their humans. lol When I started writing these characters I knew I wanted to depict a species of werewolf that was an even mix of everything I loved about their potential. A mix of folkloric aspects, but also the psychiatric ones. How werewolfism has been associated with mental illness for so long and yet very little has been done with it. I began to wonder how far I could take this metaphor and how I could work it together to make a cohesive story and/or character. Psychology has always been something that's interested me and I've always had a particular interest in multiple personalities. A lot of this is probably personal. I grew up exposed to the application of psychology and such at an early age as bipolar runs in my family. At it's most extreme, it certainly did feel like someone else was living in my head along with myself. Having PTSD really didn't help that. (I had a really weird childhood.) I guess I've always wanted to write about the monster in my head, and werewolves are a perfect conduit through which to convey this.

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QuebecoisWolf In reply to TeknicolorTiger [2013-03-21 18:25:11 +0000 UTC]

Interesting... though I wonder how else men are supposed to act around Hayden. He's a supernatural, 200 year old killer with a lot of money that's bound to make most feel uneasy. I think that hating weakness is a logical trait for a predator like Hayden to have. And yes, I'm familiar with the "treat everything with opium" fad of the 1800s. The Victorians went above and beyond to hide the fact that a great many people, especially in the Post-War US, were abusing narcotics to deal with health problems. What I didn't know was that Hayden's family build mental institutions. Though it does make some degree of sense. Your delightfully deranged werewolves having connections with mental institutions is a lot like vampires who invest in blood banks. No one really cared about what happened to the inmates of mental institutions (aside from a few VIPs) and who's going to believe them if they start talking about werewolves?

Huh... no wonder Hayden has issues. Though I also got the sense that Hayden had relations with his twin sister. As weird as it is, what Hayden does now is a lot worse than incest. She couldn't transform, though? What happened there?

Why thank you! And thank you for your help with the boobs. I'm not sure if this is sexist, but... I basically wrote her as a male and added some female stuff. Anyway, the lesson for me, especially during discussion of my "no girls allowed" werewolf rant was to stop worrying. I think that a lot of male writers are intimidated by the prospect of writing female characters and avoid them as a result. Though one thing I've learned since I joined up with werewolf-horror is that there's a pretty even split between male and female members and I get the impression that there's huge demand for female werewolves of a more horrific variety. Just out of curiosity, what makes you see this belonging to an anthology? Since I didn't want to copy what you're doing with separate wolf "others," I wanted to put a different spin on things. And I've already ranted a bit about how the "inner beast" is almost always a synonym for "inner demon." I'm hoping to write a historical vignette about the "Trust" werewolves, but I really need to do a little research since my historical knowledge prior to 1700 is really dodgy, though this is an alternate history. Your werewolves definitely reflect your passions and I know I've mentioned that I love the flexibility of werewolves as a species. Now that you mention it, despite the fact that lycanthropy is a real-life psychological disorder and werewolf folklore is undeniably tied to mental illness, this link remains largely ignored. The closest we get is that humans mistake the (perfectly sane) werewolf's claims as a sign of mental illness. Psychology is the only science that really holds my interest and I wish I knew more than the basics.

And I have a werewolf-related question: do the werewolves of SnB have less need to sleep? I've started reading "Road to Nowhere" and Hayden is said to be on a 3-day run. I've topped out at 44 hours and things got pretty weird towards the end.

Also, I see that ABF isn't the only one with a Skynyrd shirt.

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to QuebecoisWolf [2013-03-21 20:57:13 +0000 UTC]

Hayden had a very unusual relationship with his twin sister, but it never came to "relations" as much as he wanted it to. But this mostly had to do with how Hayden felt like he was half a person. In the abstract part of his mind, his sister was the piece that somehow had detached from him and is why he doesn't function like a normal human being...Well 'human' being relative. He feels empty inside. Melanie was very much a surprise when she was born a few minutes after Hayden, they didn't know she was even in there, which is probably where he got this notion.

Hayden's family is very old. His ancestors were Nordic Berserkers who often used their monstrous forms in battle and also to protect their villages from other supernatural forces that were more prevalent at the time. The chances of passing on the ability to transform is very high due to the purity of the bloodline, but as with all werewolf families there is a slim chance that someone will inherit therianism, which is my fancy word for a werewolf that is unable to change. (And one that's subject to change but I just really like how it sounds. lol) Therianism in AP universe, is much more common in females. No one has done a census, but it's believed that there are roughly the same number of female werewolves in the world than male - which is to say not much considering they're a dying race (yes, I know cliches, blah blah blah. I just figure that if my werewolves were more numerous then it would be kinda silly to try to keep them hidden, which I like.) - but they are harder to detect and are often mistaken to suffer from a mental illness or, in some parts of the world, demonic possession depending on the severity of their wolf-personality. Hayden's sister was fairly mildly effected as her wolf and she actually got along for the most part, but she had her fits. Basically, therianism involves the same sort of urges and triggers that a regular werewolf might have but without the ability to change. They're slightly stronger and have slightly keener senses than most humans but mostly when the wolf is in charge and that restriction on self-preservation is lifted (although the body may not have changed, when the wolf is in charge, it may think it has and act accordingly). Their brains are wired to handle transformation and the duality of being a werewolf, but their bodies lack that "trigger" and the anatomy to pull everything into place and keep it there. Naturally she's not as powerful as a real werewolf, especially since she can't change and access that full potential. But she held her own pretty well in a family full of werewolves. Her life was pretty stressful though considering, not only was she surrounded by actual werewolves, but outside, people thought she was insane because the Whittingham's kept her locked up so much. Well, the Whittinghams were pretty secretive anyway and being builders and maintainers of mental institutions didn't help with their reputation so they mostly kept to themselves or mingled with other well-to-do families, specifically werewolf ones. They tried to marry her off at one point, but that ended badly. lol Females who suffer from therianism are not highly sought after even among werewolves due to them having the reputation of being unstable or unruly and sometimes it was actually hard to tell between them being real werewolves who couldn't change and just a human with mental or emotional issues. Melanie died a virgin and unwed in a house fire when she was 18.

I'm actually looking forward to writing her when the time comes in Hayden's story. She was every bit as charming as Hayden but in her own way and was much more manipulative...or seemed so because she often used her femininty to persuade people, such as her own parents. She was a tomboy around her brothers, but was daddy's and mommy's little girl when she was around them. I wouldn't really say she used it in a malicious way though. She genuinely cared about everyone, especially Hayden because she saw him as the one most in need of help (also probably because well...twin's supposedly being strongly empathic with one another). Even though she didn't exactly reciprocate his urges to "join" with her, she could understand why. She just didn't see how it would help anything when she was satisfied with the connection they already had. She was often seen as the "responsible one" because she would stand up to Riley (the oldest and most brutish), coddle Nicholas (the youngest and most docile out of all of them) and made sure Hayden stayed out of trouble. lol

I suppose I apply to the inner-beast-as-demon trope because I just really like the conflict and it provides a great source of psychological thriller/drama that I love writing about. It's also a good source of horror story telling. I do make a point later on in my book to mention that not all werewolves suffer from this. Many are similar to your werewolves in Trust in that they see their wolf-personas as an integral part of themselves and share a strong symbiotic relationship with it. Hayden is actually like this. It's very rare that his wolf will have other ideas and try to go against him, usually they reach some sort of compromise in the end. I really like Hayden's wolf in that it isn't nearly as vocal as my other werewolves' wolf-personalities. He's the strong, largely silent voice in the back of Hayden's head and sometimes even acts as his conscience or voice of reason in certain situations. Other times, he's all instinct and just reminds Hayden of his more basic functions like the need to eat or sleep when he chooses to neglect them due to current obsessions or circumstances.

Werewolves in SnB sleep about as much as regular people, maybe more what with all the transforming they do. Hayden's just an oddball because he's an insomniac and can't seem to shut down his brain long enough to relax and get some shut eye unless it's about to kill him. lol Autumn is also something of an insomniac for the same reasons but because she's more creatively minded, if she can't sleep it's because she needs to finish writing that song or painting that picture before she can. Sometimes it's because she's feeling agitated and she knows that her wolf is going to torture her with dreams - probably unintentional in this case though. Sometimes the wolf-personality stands in for the subconcious, and will try to work out issues while the human brain sleeps thus triggering some really freaky dreams. Hayden hates this especially.

And I forget that you're a historian. Sorry if I came off as condescending. XD Also, you're pretty much right on about the mental asylums being associated with my werewolves. I wanted it to be a recurring theme. And when I said that your short story could belong to an anthology I was thinking like a short story anthology. Like something I might read in John Skipp's collection of werewolf and shapeshifter short stories. (Which you need to read, if you haven't. XD)

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QuebecoisWolf In reply to TeknicolorTiger [2013-03-22 01:26:06 +0000 UTC]

Yep, I just stumbled over that part. That oddly enough, if Hayden had had relations with his sister, he wouldn’t have turned out so awful. It’s interesting to really get into the psychology of characters like this.

Ah yes, I forgot about your therians. And yes, calling werewolves a dying race is such a cliché, which in Hayden’s words is so blah-dee, blah-dee, blah. I think I’ve mentioned my feelings about how silly it is when superpowered creatures hide. The Twilight Vampires really should be ruling the world. Anyway, I think that therianism sounds like a pretty sad condition. I’m not surprised that things didn’t go well for Hayden’s sister and it does explain why Hayden is what he is.

Well, it sounds like she’s certainly of Hayden’s blood. It’s interesting to see how she can be “manipulative with heart.” And I definitely believe that she has a special tie with Hayden.

I don’t disagree that it’s good for horror and drama (and I think that you handle it better than most). I did know that Hayden was curiously close with his inner wolf, it’s just that both he and his inner beast are monsters. I definitely caught that Hayden’s inner wolf is probably less monstrous than he is and mostly serves as a survival function.

Interesting… I was going to have ABF as a machine who sleeps only a few hours per night. I imagine that she has a lot of nightmares too and though she actively suppresses her doubts, they are likely to come out in her sleep. In general, she’s not an insomniac so much as someone who would rather just stay busy.

I didn’t take any offense. Oh good. I’m hoping to see more of it. I have a werewolf stories anthology – and it’s just awful.

Also, I think that there really needs to be a Lola x ABF RP at some point. They share a hatred for misogyny in all forms and I’m interested in seeing how Lola reacts to a heavily scarred woman doesn’t threaten her relationships.

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to QuebecoisWolf [2013-03-22 02:15:18 +0000 UTC]

Well, yeah. Which is why I stacked the odds against their race because I felt like if werewolves were everywhere and in the mainstream, it would sorta derail my story. They're a powerful race but also extremely mentally and emotionally unstable. I'm still trying to work out how balanced I want the world to be in terms of humans vs. supernatural races. Like, why they would have to hide in the first place if they're so powerful and what makes human so special that they run the place outside of numbers. It's something I've gone back and forth on a lot and have just chosen to keep under my hat for the most part until I could figure out something solid. Thematically, I know why I want to keep it that way but functionally I'm not sure how to accomplish it....and honestly was at the point now where it was just something I was going to run with and hope that the reader will be too distracted by everything else to really question it. In reading up on the history of lycanthropy, however, I have generated a few vague ideas but I need to brainstorm a bit more. Currently, however, it's nothing that really effects my story overall. One of them is that because humans are both a source of food and sort of the "Ditto" (Pokemon) of the supernatural world, keeping them happy and oblivious to the existence of predators like werewolves and vampires - who already have enough trouble generating offspring, because it's not like they can make more of themselves via a bite or anything - would be ideal so that they don't panic and go into "kill it with fire" mode, especially considering they have the numbers and organization to do so effectively. And have in a certain sense (I.E. Knights of the Silver Cross). Werewolves, vampires, witches (non-human), fae, etc, are all part of an eco system that uses humans as an important resource. I'm still fleshing out this idea a bit more but I'm hoping it'll explain why it's essential that they remain hidden. Or maybe I'm overthinking it because the cliche sorta bugs me too. But I feel like if cryptohominids were to make their presence known then it would remove something important from the atmosphere of my story. I'd like to maintain some sense of mystery and horror about it, and I feel that if werewolves were to be revealed, even if they were prosecuted and/or more actively hunted by the general population, then it wouldn't be quite as....suspenseful? Even though we're brought into the world of the book through Autumn, a werewolf, and who mostly interacts with other werewolves throughout the book, the reader is still of the mind that they are human and that Autumn is still essentially human. To have werewolves more "mainstream" even in the era of my book, sorta breaks the mystique that we're in a place we're not supposed to be or know about and I feel dismisses some of the horror aspects. Which at the same time, I think is why the cliche is still used predominantly in a lot of werewolf stories.

And you should totally contact ~Caity-Mayhem about an RP. That would be interesting.

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QuebecoisWolf In reply to TeknicolorTiger [2013-03-22 16:14:10 +0000 UTC]

Though at the present time, it sounds like werewolves' biggest issue isn't just their lack of numbers, but their lack of organization. If there's one really dramatic difference between AP and SnB, it's that the werewolves of AP don't have big, well-organized groups that make common cause, fly the same banner, and more or less work towards a common goal. Looking at history, one of the biggest mistakes that aspiring revolutionaries can make is a failure to bind together smaller groups at least in the short term against the reigning government.

Since the setting of SnB is more about making a sandbox for RP, we can forgive the fact that werewolves haven't taken over the world (though the Lycs and Ulfs are certainly working on it). For AP, I think that the best explanation is that werewolves mention and emotional problems make it very difficult for them to really organize. Even the best-run packs and colonies don't contain all that many members and they likely stay together by keeping a closed community and being distrustful of outsiders. Groups are also weighed down by their more deranged members and ultimately, they're more likely to be about protecting what they have rather than aspirations of conquest. The same is likely true of individual werewolves, many of whom are more concerned about the day-to-day struggle of being a werewolf. Those who don't have this struggle, have other issues. Case in point, Hayden has ample experience and reputation, not to mention ambitions, but even if he decided to become a proper leader, he's too deranged and unfocused to fight a war that may last centuries.

Having said all of that, I don't think it's an issue, especially since it's obvious that your werewolves are rare and tend to have serious psychological issues, not to mention don't have the strength to destroy entire armies on their own.

Isn't it just awful when you love a huge cliche? I've already confessed my favorite werewolf-related ones.

To overthink stuff some more, wouldn't humans being an important natural resource for the supernatural world yet well-organized and dangerous just be all the more reason to conquer them? That was my thinking in my happy little Post-Apocalyptic world. But that's them and I think that when you've got any supernatural race, how they relate to the human world has a lot more to do with the themes at play than what's necessarily realistic. I also feel that you're right to say that a world where werewolves are persecuted isn't as suspenseful and really does lose the horror element. It reminds me of playing Jurassic Park as a kid: you always wanted to be on the human side because they had access to any and all weapons, including M60 machine guns, antitank weapons, and low-yield nuclear warheads. The game mostly consisted of dinosaurs running away from humans (just like the movie). Werewolf persecution stories seem prone to turning into this or worse, poorly-handled allegories for the Holocaust.

If nothing else, I think that you're using the cliche for the right reasons. I have suspicions that it's so popular just so that authors can use a modern setting rather than have to give some serious thought to how a world where werewolves are common knowledge would work and do all of the related worldbuilding.

Done! I'm also hoping that Switzel gets back to me since I want to see how Myra responds to Jonas' flirting.

And last topic: I've finally figured out ABF's housing situation - she bought the 1980s dream house of a paranoid millionaire (based on Mike Tyson's mansion, though she doesn't have a pool: [link] ) It's not vandalized, but the furnishings are every bit as dated and the only remodeling she's done is to make the original owner's basement bunker into a more functional room for "fun" and the storage of illegally obtained meat and other contraband.

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to SquareZer0 [2013-03-20 00:50:52 +0000 UTC]

Thank you! I really do try. I guess it sorta bugs me that people don't take advantage of all that werewolves could be in regards to creature and character design. To me, the hint of humanity in their faces and bodies is what makes them more monstrous than anything. The uncanniness expressed in things like sideshow freaks and medical deformities presented as horrorific is sorta what I'm going for, even though I've clearly chosen a more definitive lupine look for them in this instance. I guess, physiologically, I want them to be 75% wolf, 15% human, and 5% uncanny valley.

A lot of the werewolves I've seen where they are drawn mostly as wolves, at least in the face, makes them a little too foreign and too animal to be scary or disturbing. Fascinating, awesome, and beautiful maybe, but considering werewolves are supposed to be the kinds of monsters you want to be frightened of, it's sorta missing the point. That being said, ultimately it depends on what kind of story you want to tell and what you want your werewolf to represent or instill in the reader/viewer.

I wanted my werewolves to be something that you might mistake as something else until you got a really good look at it. At the same time, the human qualities of their expressions and such could later be used to make them more personable as well. I think that was something that really struck me about the Van Helsing wolves in particular. Throughout most of the movie we see them snarling and roaring and being generally bestial, until that last scene where Helsing-wuff is overcome by another sort of emotion and it's very plain to see the humanity in eyes and the structure of his face.

Er, sorry about the longwinded reply. You caught me when I was feeling talkative. XD

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SquareZer0 In reply to TeknicolorTiger [2013-03-20 14:28:47 +0000 UTC]

Yeah, I see what you mean with how making them too animal withdraws from the scary part of them. Part of what werewolves represent in horror is that "humanity lost," and that effect is better complimented when you can still see that shred of humanity, I think. A more animal-looking werewolf can be scary in its own respect in that nature is kinda/sorta terrifying, especially when it's seven feet tall and has a bad case of the munchies. Only problem is that with a lot of the more popular artists treating werewolves are more animal than human use that animal side as more of a depiction of serene beauty instead, so you miss out on that "brutality of nature."

I've completely forgotten what point I was trying to make here... I'm just gonna move on. >_>

You're right about the Van Helsing werewolves. I think a lot of the expressiveness was in the eyes, which still looked so human. It's kind of like they represented that human side peeking out from behind a mask, in a way. Regardless, they did a good job in that movie of making the monsters expressive.

Don't worry about the long-winded reply. I like long-winded replies. ^_^

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TeknicolorTiger In reply to SquareZer0 [2013-03-20 23:56:43 +0000 UTC]

I think you made your point pretty clear. And I completely agree. But while I do lean more towards the horrific werewolf, I can also see the appeal in the more serene, more "wolfy" ones, too, but it relies very heavily on what kind of story you're trying to tell. In this case, I don't think it's really an argument on what's original any more since I've seen both tropes used so much. I have more respect for artists who are aware of the original folktales and origins of lycanthropy but continue to draw them as peaceful creatures than I do for artists who aren't aware, aren't interested in learning, and completely reject the history because it's too "cliche" and messes with their perfect, self-indulgent fantasy of being a beautiful and powerful beast. It also doesn't help matters much when people have a tendency to frame the wolf as a noble and somehow perfect animal.

I think what's really influenced my look for werewolves, more than anything is learning the history of them. Werewolves are not simply humans that become wolves, they're humans that become wolf-like monsters, and in some cases, demons. Even the very old tales about King Lycaon and the Arcadian cult, referred to the transformation from man to wolf as something uncanny and abnormal though definitely divine. Not all folkloric werewolves were evil, though they were still monstrous. A key element is the human factor, whether the transformed creature bears any resemblance to the previous form or not. But as fascinating as folklore is, and this is probably my main point I'm trying to make here, it's the links to reality that really fascinate me. The werewolf trials in 1500s-1600s France saw a lot of mentally disabled and unstable people being burned at the stake. The associations with mental illness and human abnormality are really what draw me to werewolves more than anything. I like to think I sorta represent that in trying to make the human visible in the form of the beast but also in the way my characters deal with having an "unhealthy" part of themselves. As someone who has had a lot of exposure to psychological issues, this is probably a result of personal experiences.

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SquareZer0 In reply to TeknicolorTiger [2013-03-22 17:34:32 +0000 UTC]

I like what you said about the link to human abnormalities. I've been kind of trying to explore that too, though not as in-depth as I think you have with Amber Peace. The monstrous side of werewolves kind of represents mental instability/illness and loss of control in a lot of the stories, like you said, and I've been thinking a lot into that idea lately.

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FrostNix In reply to SquareZer0 [2013-03-19 22:58:52 +0000 UTC]

I was going to say the exact same thing! I love that about your werewolves!

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