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TurnerMohan In reply to SciFiLover2 [2017-06-12 23:54:08 +0000 UTC]

Thank you! (and my apologies for the very late response)

i think i've seen one or two of those scale comparrison charts vastly favoring ancalagon or glarung (or yes, even scatha) over smaug and, yeah, i too think they're a little ridiculous, and birthed out of this CGI-effects movie requirement to make everything bigger and more epic than what's been seen onscreen already, honestly i think smaug himself, as he appeared in the jackson movies, was a bit of a victim of this. Tolkien obviously never saw a modern action/monster movie (and i would venture to guess probably wasnt that big into the entries in that genre even of his time) drawing his inspiration for smaug and glaurung from the likes of fafnir or beowulf's dragon, which, as written (or recited, originally) presentations, encourage the reader to imagine such monstrosities, and this i find gives those dragons of ancient sagas, and tolkien's ones - in their size, their speed, and their ability to reak destruction - a kind of pared-down beleavability (as much as a dragon can have) that would probably be deemed too un-exciting for modern movie/video-game fare. Flying in the face of this 'logic' is the fact (atleast as far as my tastees are cocerned) that basically none of the ever-larger computer generated monstrosities in movies today have the weight, power, or menace of, say, the t-rex's first appearence in jurrasic park (filmed mostly in-camera with a 40 foot long rubber-skinned animatronic). I think people inherently respond more to things at a closer-to-realistic scale and presence, so yeah i figure for scatha something about the size and dimensions of the extinct titanaboa or sarosuchus would be suitable to qualify as a great monster (and the slaying of such a beast, especially by one man without firearms, as a deed worthy of heroic story and song)

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POOVER In reply to POOVER [2015-02-13 11:26:01 +0000 UTC]

and here as well.
lotr.wikia.com/wiki/War_of_the…

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TurnerMohan In reply to Artigas [2014-04-20 08:24:13 +0000 UTC]

yes, of all tolkien's (named) dragons, I see scatha as being the smallest, least powerful and least sapient, just a predatory animal, malice and instinct as you put it. I actually really like the idea that, in that way, Scatha is actually a lot closer to the "average" of the dragon species than a huge, intelligent fire-drake like glaurung or smaug (I like to think that the majority of dragons created in middle earth probably couldnt fly, breath fire, or speak)

You've got what I was hoping to convey with the men on the far hill perfectly. The Eotheod love their horses, so this marauding ambush hunter would be a grievous hurt to them, and a formidable foe.

Thanks for all the kind words man, really brightens up my day.

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Artigas In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-06-05 17:27:44 +0000 UTC]

This idea of a less intelligent and that could not couldn’t fly, breath fire, or speak dragons is very cannon if you think about it. Just take the example of Ungolliant and its brood, Laracna and the lesser spiders. It seems like the most powerful the corrupted spirit, the most "complete" and powerfull the creature. The great dragons are exceptional individuals, not the norm. The lesser ones will be much more like the medieval idea of what a dragon is. A smaller beast that could be killed by a normal mortal hero. Once again, your eyes where keen Mr. Turner.

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TurnerMohan In reply to Artigas [2014-06-06 00:26:16 +0000 UTC]

that's what i tend to think, it seems fitting with tolkien's approach as you point out. the wolves and spiders were on my mind while thinking about it.

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Yutyrannus In reply to Zeonista [2014-11-11 03:51:31 +0000 UTC]

What about the fire-drake of Gondolin?

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TurnerMohan In reply to Kitt-Otter [2014-03-28 03:34:41 +0000 UTC]

thank you, and it's good to know my general concept of the flightless dragons is a shared one

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Zeonista In reply to RiccoDisfaktism [2014-03-28 16:50:34 +0000 UTC]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHapWN…

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kzfWp…

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RiccoDisfaktism In reply to Zeonista [2014-03-28 17:44:50 +0000 UTC]

OMG, I won't sleep tonight

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Zeonista In reply to RiccoDisfaktism [2014-03-28 17:53:17 +0000 UTC]

Always ready to be of help.

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TurnerMohan In reply to Zeonista [2014-03-28 17:10:06 +0000 UTC]

this is pretty great man

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Zeonista In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-03-28 17:16:34 +0000 UTC]

Megalania was pretty much a monitor writ large, so the animators didn't need much help. As a movement study it is good, worth an entire page of writing! Your Scatha would have some different bits, due to his tail & neck being longer, and his more focused gaze, and scent more like a mammal than a lizard.

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TurnerMohan In reply to RiccoDisfaktism [2014-03-27 17:36:47 +0000 UTC]

I'm very glad to hear that you like this piece, and that it hits a particular chord with you.

as for dragons in the east, I like your idea of them as some distant branch of the dragons of morgoth, long since sundered from their western kin. actually, the whole vast East in middle-earth (and I dont really think of Rhun as a country in and of itself, with a king and a capital city and all, but simply the name that those in the west use for the many unknown leagues to the east) is a fascinating thing to contemplate, for me; what the people are like out there, how big the world really is (I tend to favor vast beyond imagining, vast the way the real world was near endlessly vast in the imagination of ancient man) what strange creatures - like eastern style dragons - might lurk out there, and how they may be related to the creatures we recognize from the parts of arda touched upon in tolkien's stories. I guess this is an extention of my thinking of middle-earth as basically a mythological version of the whole ancient world, not just the european part of it (it would seem likely that, far far out into the east, unknown to any men of the west or even the elves, you would run into something like the pacific ocean, and after endless miles of that, you would theoretically come to north and south america, populated by men who are not, in terms of how they got there, living in the "west" but actually in the uttermost "east," this is of course quite true of real life native americans) I've been thinking I'd love to do a drawing of the blue wizards, they always struck me as these very significant absentees of the great events in West, but they are maiar both powerful and wise, bound to be impacting wherever they went, and it's kind of a head trip to think of what they might have run into out east, and what they did out there.

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RiccoDisfaktism In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-03-28 08:09:36 +0000 UTC]

I totally share your idea of Rhûn as a generic name used in the West to define all the unknown countries east of the charted lands, and I've actually given a lot of thought to it. If you care, I'll tell you, but prepare to fall asleep
First of all, just east of the Erebor-Dale-Iron Hills area there's the westernmost part of Rhûn, populated by a mixture of Norse and Asiatic cultures, something like the Rus of Kiev, who were originally Vikings (and I tend to imagine the men of Laketown and Dale, and Rhovanion in general, as a culture with strong Norse feautures, especially since they're said to be kin to the Anglo-Saxon Rohirrim). East of these proto-Russians there's an immense steppe area, inhabitated by a variety of tribes with Mongol, Hunnish, Turkish elements, constantly at war with each other, and this is probably where Wainriders and Balchoth come from. Still farther East there's this East of Easts (or Desert of Gobi), which is of course, like Medieval China, a vast empire ruled by a single semi-divine sovereign, blessed by "the Dragon" (hence their association with Morgoth and the evil forces in general). This is where I like to think Saruman, in his journeys to the East, got his blasting fire AND crossbows for his Uruk-hai and Dunlendish infantry (I've never really liked PJ's Uruk crossbowmen, but this idea could justify them, couldn't it?)
And yay for the Blue Wizards! They've always deeply interested me, and I tend to imagine them with more Eastern/Mongolic features than their three fellows. I'd really like to see your version of them as two Asiatic shamans, and since they're said to be the founders of new cults in Rhûn... maybe this is a bit blasphemous of me, but couldn't one of them look a bit like Buddha?

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TurnerMohan In reply to RiccoDisfaktism [2014-03-29 05:41:47 +0000 UTC]

I like your assesment of the people of rhun, particularly your ideas about the Rus-like inhabitants of the lands immediately east of the lonely mountain and esgaroth (I've often thought that the dwarves, being much farther ranging, between their seven houses, than the almost entirely west-dwelling elves, but also a more consistant race and people than the practically endless tribes, nations and races of men, would have alot of that russian/eastern european "gateway to the east" look to their dress and armor, with alot of chainplate and scale mail, and a hefty dose of semetic styles woven into their overall vaguely nordic looking -though stunted - silhouettes)

the way I like to envision it, the "men of the west" seem to be basically indo-european "caucasian" people (the three houses of the edain, beorian, halethian, and hadorian seem to correspond, in their appearence, customs, and their 'place' in history relative to one another, to the three types of western european people as reckoned by academics of tolkien's time; respectively the mediterreanians, celts and germanics) the people of near harad are a semetic/arabic people, living in the area roughly correspondent to north aftrica (there are black skinned "troll men" from far harad mentioned, which sounds alot like south-saharan black africans) the Khandians, i see as an Indo-persian people, possibly related (if you extrapolate the reasoning) to the three houses of the edain, but the ones that went south-east instead of northwest (and subsequently fell into evil) and then you get the sallow-skinned "easterlings," a term that, the way I see it, encompasses pretty much every type of "yellow person" you can think of, from the magyars and turkmen to the mongol/hunnic types frather east, finally coming, as you say, to something like ancient china (although I've always thought that making the easterlings look chinese or japanese, like the films did, is shrinking the world of middle-earth too much; in real life the west didnt come into contact with china until the middle ages, and the first three ages of middle earth seem to take palce in a time stylistically before that, so I think that, while their should be a basically chinese civilization out there somewhere across rhun, no one in the west of middle-earth has ever seen someone from that far east, except the blue wizards, the golden-age numenorean mariners and possibly one or two of the farther flung houses of the dwarves)

Your concept of the basically chinese emperors of the lands in the far east adopting the dragon, a creature of morgoth, as their symbol and source of authority, and thereby adopting evil into their hearts (or maybe it was the other way around, they had already turned to evil, which is why the dragon is not an evil thing or enemy in their culture) is absolutely brilliant, and speaks to the critical and condescending tone that, I am sorry to say, Tolkien (like many western men of his time, in fairness) seems to have consistently taken in his reckoning of non-european cultures and their traditions and practices. if taken as a mythic parallel to our own world, it would seem, according to tolkien's vision, that only in the civilized (and most importantly, christian) West has humanity "gotten it right" especially theologically speaking, all other peoples and cultures being, whatever their individuals' capacity for morality, hopelessly mired in confused beliefs and practices that all too often boil down to unconcious devil-worship. Perhaps tolkien did not think this at all, and perhaps that is why, as he said so many times, middle-earth and the events therein should not be taken as a direct allegory for anything, but within middle-earth itself the picture seems pretty damn relentless in it's eurocentricity and euro-favor. That's not really a problem for me, as I love ancient european mythology, and it was my love of that that drew me to tolkien in the first place, so when it comes to drawing the blue wizards (who have probably journeyed so far and wide as to make gandalf look like a homebody) as looking asiatic, I'd have to think about it. I've certainly seen atleast one asian-influenced maiar before ( Ekukanova's brilliant portrait of melian, which you should check out if you havent already) which came out beautifully.

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RiccoDisfaktism In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-03-31 15:47:21 +0000 UTC]

See? You were asking me the points in common of our musings about Middle-Earth, and... well, our thoughts coincide 100% on what you just said! I agree about Dwarves being a sort of "gateway to the East", since their people has so many points in common with Hebrew culture as seen through the eyes of a Medieval western man: first of all, their nature of wandering folk, constantly driven from one place to another, always feeling this burning longing to "reclaim their homeland", then their tendence to secrecy and to isolate themselves from other people, then their obsession with riches, even their language reminds somehow the Jewish speech!
Anyway, I think the concept of the Blue Wizards as Asiatic shamans is a good one. The Valar obviously sent the Istari to teach and cajole the various peoples of Middle-Earth, and these divine emissaries had to look in a way that could inspire trust to the people they were going to help holding out against the Shadow... What better way to make them look somehow like they could belong to those cultures? A white-skinned wizard would have reminded too much of the hated Númenoreans to the people of Rhûn, thus making difficult their initial relationships. I think yellow-skinned, Mongolic-looking wizards would have appealed more to the Easterlings

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TurnerMohan In reply to RiccoDisfaktism [2014-04-04 18:46:23 +0000 UTC]

with the dwarves (as with so much in middle earth) tolkien was working from the precedents established in norse mythology, where dwarves are villains as often as not. tolkien's dwarves; secretive, patriachal exiles from their homeland, master craftsmen and rich moneylenders who trade for their food, are indeed (as much as they are anything) a viable analogy for Jews in medieval society, tolkien even said as much once, and though that might be considered stereotyping and racist by today's standards, I think it was an interesting re-evaluation of the role of dwarves as they existed in the ancient sagas of which Tolkien was a preeminent scholar - from secretive, greedy, villainous characters like Fafnir to misunderstood "others" - a re-evaluation which, by extension, sheds a sympathetic light on the plight of jews as maligned social outsiders in medieval europe. that's one of the reasons i've always had reservations about the assigning of that hearty, shreck-like scottish brogue to dwarves, I'm not convinced that it accurately matches their character.

I've wanted to do a take on the blue wizards for a long time, and, inspired in part by our back and forth, i've started work on a piece featuring them.

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Libra1010 In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-04-05 18:41:26 +0000 UTC]

 Given that the Dwarves of Erebor seem to have picked up their usage of the Common Tongue from Dale, it's perhaps unsurprising that they picked up a touch of the Celtic in the process (there's something about the name 'Dale' that has such a celtic ring to it that Mr Luke Evans decidedly Cymric take on Bard the Bowman struck me as entirely appropriate).

 I'd like to think that the Woodsmen and the Folk of Dale descend from the often underrated Folk of Haleth (it amuses me to imagine that the ancestors of the Bardings formed bonds with Durin's folk over their mutual haughty indifference to those snooty elves!), rather like the Folk of Bree as you see them Master Mohan.

  

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TurnerMohan In reply to Libra1010 [2014-04-06 17:32:54 +0000 UTC]

well I like to think that as well, but the men of rhovanion seem to be, atleast in tolkien's intention, unanimously germanic "northmen," the only Halethian folk in the second and third ages seem limited to eriador and what might one day topographically evolve into the "celtic fringe" (it's not hard to imagine the greyflood opening up in time into the english channel, and the whole north-east quadrant of eriador breaking off the mainland, of leaving the hobbits, bomabadil, the old hallowed authority of arnor, and the men of bree on the north side, and the dunlandings down to druaith iaur - reshaped into something more like the iberian penensula, with the bay of belfalas closed to a pinch at andrast, resembling gibraltar - on the continent. even at the time of the lord of the rings the map does resemble europe)

It's certainly appealing to play around with some identity for the men of esgaroth of the feral beornings other than them simply being kin of the eorlingas, but as it stands i think the lands of rhovanion -  first conceived for 'the hobbit' as the land of archaic past to which bilbo, being a more or less modern englishman, travels back to and, by his natural quality of character, earns a place in - are supposed to be, broadly speaking, germanic territory. tolkien was far more anglocentric in his fantasy stylings than any but an astute eye acknowledge; the celtic prescence in his world being largely villainous and at best possessed of a humble, salt-of-the-earth hobbit-sense as with haleth, hurin (who is half of their people) and the breelanders. I also think part of why this goes under people's radar is that so much of the high fantasy genre (particularly post-tolkien) is so celtophilic.

i once attended a lecture by the great tom shippey, who good-naturedly spectulated that tolkien would have been mildly appalled by the celtic music at bilbo's birthday, and it's hard for me not to think that that he would have received all that warcraft-influenced "laddy" talk from the dwarves similarly, but then again I also hold that an author's work is for others to interperate, and there's a reason people like celtic stuff, it's cool (I hope that doesnt sound like an extensive shoot down, your comment just got me thinking. and for the record i thought luke evans as a welsh Bard was indeed perfect)

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Libra1010 In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-04-07 10:43:56 +0000 UTC]

 Please don't worry Master Mohan; if there's one thing you learn at University it's that a valid argument is not a personal insult unless somebody is clearly making a point of turning it into one (also that if there's one thing Academics love it's a nice, juicy difference of opinion).  

 Although I'd like to note that even Professor Tolkien's fantasy contemporaries were pretty darned fond of those colourful Celts or at any rate Mr Robert E. Howard was and I believe he actually corresponded with The Good Professor at one point - or vice versa, I cannot clearly recall - although I'm increasingly prone to regard the Hyborian Age as bearing quite a resemblance to the world of the Diadochai (the successors of Alexander the Great, a half-civilised 'Barbarian' by standards of the original Hellenes), not least in the sheer DEVIOUSNESS of those Successors.

 Reading through the articles on 'Macedonian Game of Thrones' might convince you that I'm not entirely crazy when I make the connection:

 deadliestblogpage.wordpress.co…

 Admittedly The Hyborian Age is a true melting pot of Historic influences (and was deliberately designed as such), but I thought that I'd throw the idea out for it's own sake.

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Libra1010 In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-04-05 16:29:44 +0000 UTC]

Gentlemen, I can only say that I admire your world building!

 One idea that suggested itself after reading through your back-and-forth was that if one wishes to distinguish one Blue Wizard from the other, it might be fun to depict the other as wearing somewhat Persian garb (an homage to your own idea that some descendants of those Atani who passed out of the history of the First Age or never entered it would go on to become a fairly Persian people - also to the Zoroastrian Magi, the original 'Mages').

 He might well make a fine visual contrast with One Blue Wizard, who decided to channel Mago instead!


 On a somewhat-related note it occurred to me while thinking on the Blue Mages that one way of selling 'Saruman of Many Colours' as a Bad Thing, rather than a 'dirty hippie' moment on the part of Gandalf the Grey would be to render Saruman in such a way as to suggest that instead of embracing the diversity of the Human Condition, he has instead recently come into far more money and power than is good for him then decided to display this opulence on his back, rather in the manner of a peacock but without mother nature's good taste (like a nouveau-riche tycoon with more money than sartorial common sense). 

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TurnerMohan In reply to Libra1010 [2014-04-05 17:06:18 +0000 UTC]

well you read my mind on the breakdown of the two blue wizards; i see them parting ways at some point (to say that they went "to the east" is pretty damn broad) with one more up in the "central asian" steppe regions of Rhun, middle earth's equivalent of mongolia, eastern china, and the 'stan countries) and the other operating in the more indo-persian lands of khand, and each looking their respective part (mongol and siberian shamans have been on my research list, as have islamic sufis and indian sadhus)

yes saruman's fabulous foray into postmodernism (sharply rebuked by a rather sermonizing sounding gandalf) I like to think that the blue wizards, whatever good they managed to achieve out east, are similarly tainted by such relativism (a thing I can easily sympathize with, I think they'd be two of the very few characters in middle-earth who would be able and possibly inclined to call gandalf - and the powers back home - out on their crap)

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Libra1010 In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-04-05 17:22:10 +0000 UTC]

 I'm not sure if The Powers are especially prejudiced (they don't actually CURSE those Men who fought against them, after all and if they favoured the Edain then that's because The Elf-Friends believed the best of them in the face of terrible persecution - indeed they punished Numenor in the end only because it's natives compounded the sins of The Aztecs, The Conquistadors AND Lucifer, flying in the face of those that had blessed them for not giving them EVERYTHING when far too many others had something closer to NOTHING, like Dudley Dursley screaming for MORE presents while Harry Potter got none) and although Gandalf does sound perhaps a little preachy, it's hard to blame him in the face of intense provocation.

 For while I agree that the Blue Wizards are likely to have balanced on the right side of Moral Relativism, Saruman took a flying dive off the fence into Villainy when he kept on trying to beat Sauron at his own game and STILL joined in League with him - it's hard to fault Gandalf for getting his dander up in the face of a monologue which involves Saruman all but directly invoking comparison between himself and The Enemy.

 I hope this sounds like food for thought, without sounding like the sort of thing fit to provoke indigestion; I don't mind civil debate but am prone to fear argument before fire and the sword!

 On a slightly less serious note, given the Classical associations between the Phrygian cap and freed slaves (I believe it has at times been known as the 'cap of liberty'), it might make sense to depict the more 'Aryan' (in Professor Tolkien's sense of the word; whatever his personal prejudices, it's nice to recall that he wasn't an unthinking racist) of the Blue Wizards wearing one! 

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TurnerMohan In reply to Libra1010 [2014-04-05 17:51:36 +0000 UTC]

well it's those damn servants of Aule, something about material power just gets to them after a while.

I wouldnt picture the blue wizards endorsing saruman's experimentations with, ya know, being a Dark Lord (he's definitely left the reservation there) but i can imagine them - in their long centuries out in the east, watching the lives and deaths, and good, and evil, and daily struggle of all these people who never had the advantage of any contact with or knowledge of the powers except morgoth/sauron - developing a kind of "what gives" attitude about their bosses back west and their (let's be honest, valar) all too obvious favoritism for the edain and the elves who, at several points, prove themselves to be just as wanting, morally, as anyone else (despite the advantages of their superior Knowledge, in the religious sense of the word) I think the blue elves, as I picture them, would have a hard time with gandalf (and he with them) they'd be like family members amongst whom some long standing, fundamental disagreement is always boiling under the surface.

I like to think they'd respect radaghast doing his thing and not bothering anybody( maybe they think it'd be good for him to get out more; maybe come out east and see a little more of the glorious works of yavanna he loves so much)

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Libra1010 In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-04-05 18:21:29 +0000 UTC]

 I'd like to think that EVERYONE likes Radagast, but that the likes of Curunir fail to respect him because The Brown Wizard places more emphasis on healing the wounds inflicted on the natural world in particular and anyone hurt in his immediate vicinity out of trouble; I honestly find him easy to imagine as a gentle, rather diffident fellow like a Franciscan Monk-turned-Hermit (generally focussing on something anyone else would miss).

It's also interesting to imagine the Civil-but-Serious debates Gandalf might have with the Blue Istari; I do wonder, however, just how much of the favouritism with which the Dunedain and the Eldar seem to be regarded is down to the attitude of the Valar, rather than policies the Order of Wizards were obliged to embrace when they arrived in Middle-Earth (it's hard to blame them for focussing on territories where they might find at least SOME support, rather than torches and pitchforks or worse yet thralls of Sauron).

 I fully believe that the Blue Wizards achieved Great Things, but I suspect that of all the Istari Gandalf the Grey was the one most able to keep his eye on their true goal - get rid of the Dark Lord and it becomes much easier to address, as well as alleviate the injuries he has inflicted on Middle-Earth.

 In the end, I suppose I'd like to think that The Blue Wizards and the Grey might at least refrain from open quarrel and at best they might all be able to help make the world a better place, in their own distinctive fashion.

 After all this discussion I can hardly wait to see what you'll make of these enigmatic Blue Wizards, but shall compose myself to patience like a good enthusiast!   

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TurnerMohan In reply to Libra1010 [2014-04-05 18:56:59 +0000 UTC]

yeah well, fuckin' gandalf, you've got to hand it to him (and they probably would too) he gets results.

It's amusing to see the istari as basically this quarreling bunch of brothers, each with their own problems with eachother, and with their "parents." gandalf's a "type a" who doesnt mind being pushy and manipulative in service of his mission, radaghast's a shy homebody, the blues brothers are a couple of thoreauian travel bums who smoke too much hashish, and saruman's an arrogant misanthrope.

I've got to love the blue wizards for going out east, and becoming immersed. i see them as the sort of rebelious ones, they came to do their mission but got kind of floored by how huge and awe inspiring the world is, and came to develop a personal affinity for the under cared for people of the east, as both inherently good, empathetic children of illuvatar, and as a people under constant pressure from the forces of evil. I like to think that in attempting to undo things like dragon worship and curb the spread of ruthless mordor-supported warlords, they had alot of work cut out for them - not the least of which being relentlessly hunted by servants of sauron - and came in time to relish the task (saruman is of course rebellious as well, but more like the ivy league educated success case who crashes and burns in his mid thirties, they "failed in different ways" as tolkien puts it)

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Libra1010 In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-04-05 19:16:59 +0000 UTC]

 You paint a fascinating picture in more ways than one Master Mohan! (it strikes me that the fondness for the People in the East with which you have imbued your depiction of The Blue Wizards seems very comparable to Mithrandir's fondness for Hobbits and I can only hope that this was indeed the case).

 You know that being said, it occurs to me to wonder under just what circumstances Gandalf conceived his fondness for The Shire-folk; we know he came to the aid of the Shire-folk during the Fell Winter of 2911-2912 (TA) and he invoked the unexpected toughness of Hobbits, along with their compassion for others during hard times as that which caused his heart to turn to them.

 I see a cold room in a hose that was once rather more than merely cosy, but as palatial as a Hobbit-hole can get; I see cold and dearth and want written on faces that had previously been relatively comfortable, that would seem childlike to the eyes of the Big people unless they noticed how uncomplaining they are; I see those were poor become the guests and friends in need of those that were once rich - who have opened their homes to those without fuel for their own fires and their larders to those that might otherwise starve.

 I see an old, grey figure freezing outside a door he cannot see (Wizard or no Wizard, freezing to death is still all too possible for Gandalf when such Cold is in the wind and even The Wise can have difficulty finding Hobbits when they do not wish to be found); I see some serious little faces make a still more serious inspection of this stranger to whom they owe nothing and I see many go a little more hungry so that one more might be kept from starvation.

 But then I am very fond of Hobbits and prone to be sentimental.

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TurnerMohan In reply to Libra1010 [2014-04-08 06:34:41 +0000 UTC]

yeah except that hobbits make it so damn easy, they're a bunch of little agrarian bumpkins with hearts of gold and (whenever put to it) balls of steel, it's pretty hard not to like them, whereas I see the blue wizards' growing affinity for and empathy with the people and cultures of the east as a little more hard-won; there's alot of devil-worship, either conscious or unconscious, going on out there on account of sauron's influence, and alot of "wicked" (or atleast, one suspects, not valar-endorsed) practices, polygamy and pederasty almost certainly among them, along with probable animal and/or human sacrifice traditions, and probably some very vicious ghengis khan style warlordism. I think it would take some time, and their inherent superhuman capacity for empathy as immortal maiar spirits dealing with the children of illuvatar, even with "evildoers" (something gandalf, for all his qualities, never quite masters) to pick apart the influence of evil upon the east, and see the goodness of the people laboring under it.

your explanation for gandalf's "discovery" of hobbits is a good one, and I particularly enjoy the idea of a hobbit's home (under snow) as going undetected even by a wizard. I always personally pictured hobbits as somewhat smaller than the standard 3'6" established by the movies (though that is indeed a textually supported estimate) and their architecture as smaller still; barring a "hobbit mansion" like bag-end, i like to picture hobbit architecture as snug even for their diminutive size, like plastered and panelled rabbit warrens, many of which one of the 'big folk' would have a hard time even getting into or, once inside, doing anything other than hunkering down in.

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Libra1010 In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-04-08 13:48:19 +0000 UTC]

 That would make sense, given the Shire-folks reputation as a quiet, cosy sort of people at heart, with the exception of individuals like Bandobras Took who likely earned his sobriquet 'The Bullroarer' for fairly obvious reasons; it's hard not to imagine him as the type of country squire who needs a real bombardier general bombast of a character actor to do him justice - it's even harder to imagine him as refraining from giving tongue with a 'View-Haloo!' as he charged into the Goblin Ranks at Green Fields (leaving an enduring legacy and some d--- confused Goblins shrieking "They're not supposed to have b----- cavaliers!" in his wake).

 Put another way he was probably a Shire-wide headache before he became an institution (and likely tight as a drum with ardent spirits when he made that charge, not all of them imbibed in the form of strong waters); it's a mental image that the portrait of him glimpsed in 'An Unexpected Journey' does nothing to quell.

 I would also like to add, in their defence, that not all Hobbits are bumpkins; some of them are yokels, most of them are rustics and a few of them are even simple country gentlemen (thankfully all of them seem to be civil enough, although they appear to entertain the capacity to be distinctly Uncivil to boot!). 


 I'm rather fascinated by your mental image of the Blue Wizards; they remind me just a bit of the … well 'protagonists' from 'Good Omens' a collaboration by Mr Neil Gaiman and Sir Terry Pratchett (which I recommend to you, although I'm not sure if it will be to your taste); I can't really describe them at length without giving too much away, but suffice it to say that one of them is an agent of Hell, an Angel who did not fall saunter gently downhill ... 


 

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TurnerMohan In reply to Libra1010 [2014-03-28 03:56:49 +0000 UTC]

i had considered cold drakes possessing the "septic bite" of komodo dragons; an early experiment of morgoths, and a ramp up to the firebreathers (also many of morgoth's cretures have poisoned fangs/weapons)

boewulf's three big fights (especailly grendel and the dragon) are really butt simple and videogame-plot straight forward; there's a big scary monster killing people and destroying property that needs to be taken out. It's that simplicity, i think, that gives the story of the slaying of Scatha it's authentic ancient saga feel (I discuss this at length in a comment to zeonista below) It doesnt require much context about middle-earth to tell it, it's just something that happened in an obscure corner of history, which in a way causes middle-earth to feel bigger and more "real" than the much larger events like the war of the jewels or the last alliance or the war of the ring, where the whole damn world seems to hang in the balance.

the story also plays very authentically old norse in it's treatment of the dwarves, who enjoy none of tolkien's often more sympathetic glance at their race, functioning instead (as they almost always do in ancient norse myths) as deceitful, greedy and cowardly; not willing to move on the dragon itself, but brave enough when it comes to murdering the man that took care of the problem for them. I like to think (to indulge in a bit of fan fiction, but some that I find fitting) that, possibly upon hearing of the man-king's resolve to fight the beast, the dwarves would have given him armor, or possibly even forged a sword for him, in addition to shedding some light (if not much sympathy) on their devious actions later, it seems to fit their role (both in norse myths and often in tolkien's world) as the outfitters of great heroes rather than as the heroes themselves, Fram being likely the kind of hero the dwarves in bilbo's parlor remark upon as being "hard to come by these days" (on a related note, I've often noted that, though only a chosen few elves (and maiar) ever had the distinction of killing a balrog, dragon slaying in middle-earth seems to be almost entirely a man's game, which somehow seems very fitting)

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Libra1010 In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-03-28 20:48:10 +0000 UTC]

 You make a very interesting point about a number of ideas, Master Mohan, but particularly about one of the most intriguing questions hanging over the affair - just  what manner of a man was this Fram, son of Frumgar?

 It's a simple question, but there are a number of potential answers (old or young, desperate or warlike, lesser son or greater sire) any one of which might have bearing on how the dwarves reacted to his conquest of the Worm Scatha and explain why rumours (apparently never substantiated) went about that Fram was slain by the dwarves for that little outburst of his.

 My own mental image of this particular dragon-slayer is still forming, but I'm fond of the idea that Fram was a chieftain of relatively modest standing (if of storied lineage, claiming distant affinity with the old 'King in Rhovanion' and a still more distant kingship to the heirs of Anarion in Gondor), more of a trail-boss than a great king or even a mighty chieftain (but the boss of a fairly powerful outfit), one who made his fortune and a Great name in the most spectacular manner possible, with the almost inevitable consequences for his family's upward mobility (and his own ego).

 I like the idea that The Dwarves would have bestowed upon him a weapon of the temper needed to slay the Dragon; if I might indulge in a little Fan Fiction of my own, it seems reasonable to argue that the customary dwarfish reluctance to take action themselves is based more on calculation than on cowardice - given the low birth-rate of the Naugrim, I'd say it's very likely that a lot of their thinking is centred on the absolute necessity of ensuring that their population does not dip below the number needed to sustain it's existence (hence their surprising willingness to abandon the Works which they otherwise seem to invest with a numinous significance).

 Given this plausible focus in their society, it seems easy to see Dwarfish realpolitik and common sense, rather than cowardice being their major reason for the idea expressed in 'The Hobbit' that there are no Dwarvish heroes (rather disproven by Azghal of Belegost, Dain Ironfoot and Gimli son of Gloin, albeit these may rather represent exceptions to a sound rule of thumb); given that they are also noted as being very hard to daunt or otherwise persuade, it's easy to see that very few things will drive dwarves to Heroic Actions (with all the near-suicidal risks that sort of business entails; human populations might recover from a forlorn hope, where dwarves might never hope to recoup their losses).

 
 It's also very easy to imagine a great deal of mutual incomprehension between Dwarves and the Eotheod (not to mention the dangerous glamour of dragon-hoarded gold) brewing trouble; it seems likely that prior to the first and last recorded words of Fram, some degree of misunderstanding boiled up into mutual frustration.

 Then something like the following might have occurred:

 Fram: "Insert quote here"

 Dwarves (Chorus): OMINOUS SILENCE.

 

 Fram: "Well that went well!"

 

 Fram: "Now what to ..."

 Dwarf (GRUMPY): "GIVE US THE PRECIOUS!" 

 

 CONSPIRACY THEORIES ABOUND. 

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Zeonista In reply to TurnerMohan [2014-03-28 17:12:23 +0000 UTC]

My own take on Fram and the slaying of Scatha is that it was not planned with the Dwarves, but instead was his own Beowulf-style confrontation with the dragon as befitted his station and duty. Since the Rohirrim in their history & pre-history come across as sensible fellows, it might have been something like a bull-fight in mail, with Fram's select eored men distracting Scatha with noise and spear-thrusts, keeping the worm distracted while Fram went in to face him on foot. The Hrunting-like weapon, forged in Gondor for his father or grandfather, proved lethal enough for Scatha. Afterwards with news of the deed spread far & wide, the Dwarves presented themselves to Fram and with polite thanks asked for the return of their looted treasure. I think this embassy is what prompted the "gift" of the necklace, since by Eotheod values the Dwarves had forfeited their treasure by not doing the job themselves beforehand, and leaving it to their king after the cold-drake had gorged on valuable horses and steers. This is one case where the dwarves' stiff necked pride and insular nature went against them. As the impartial chronicler, Tolkien draws the moral of Scatha's hoard causing more trouble than the dragon, with the "curse" of division between potential friends, and lasting ill-will against the Dwarves when they could have had friends.
   

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Libra1010 In reply to Zeonista [2014-03-28 21:16:24 +0000 UTC]

 I must agree with what you say Mr Zeonista; the idea that Fram might have taken a leaf out of Fingon the Valiants book and been lucky enough to finish the job before the Worm escaped seems eminently plausible, as does your reconstruction of the probable debates between Fram and Dwarves that followed - it's interesting to speculate that the Dwarves may also have irked him by refusing to recognise the horses of the Eotheod as manifestly worth paying Weregild over.

 By the way, please pardon my delusions of humour, but the idea of Fram's death leading to Kennedy-style Conspiracy Theories amuses me too much to let go of easily!

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Zeonista In reply to Libra1010 [2014-03-29 17:15:50 +0000 UTC]

Thanks to Saint George & Sigfried everybody has the idea of a solitary hero slaying the dragon. But Beowulf took a picked band of companions to confront his dragon, and even Heracles had Iolaus singe the Hydra's stumps. It seemed likely that Fram had help, and the hunt would have been managed much as any Medieval hunt was done. The Broadbeams were like all Dwarves, in that they loved the craftwork of their hands and their forefathers' hands as dearly as living kin, and that probably contributed to the lack of humility & modesty in their appeal to Fram. To the court of Fram it would have come across as being arrogant, greedy, and craven. (Treasure being treasure, Fram was already planning to use the hoard to build a kingdom around his new name-city.) The dragon-ivory necklace would have been a thing of beauty & pride to many Men, and so I suspect it had already been crafted as a trophy. Fram had it brought to him so he could bestow it on the Broadbeam embassy with the implicit message of their cowardice. I imagine the Dwarves left in a huff, swearing vengeance to "thieves". When Fram died by violence later, the dwarves took the blame for the death, and their name was mud to the Eotheod & Rohirrim for many centuries. Tolkien did not definitely pin the blame on the Dwarves, so the reader is left to decide how much guilt was involved. One could tell a story that absolved the dwarves, and could also tell a story where the dwarves took the fall for human culpability, or that they did the deed themselves, avenging the insult with axe-blows.  

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Libra1010 In reply to Zeonista [2014-03-29 17:26:14 +0000 UTC]

 I agree; part of the reason for my little 'Grassy-knoll' joke was the sort of rumours that would have led to an uncertainty over who actually finished off the suddenly obscenely-wealthy Fram (who just MIGHT have let his Achievement and the new prominence that ensued go to his head, with inevitable consequences).

 

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Zeonista In reply to Libra1010 [2014-03-27 23:15:21 +0000 UTC]

Such a creature as you have imagined did exist in Australia before the Ice Age. Its scientific name is Megalania, and skeletons have been found in the 5-7 meter length size. (Adult Komodo monitors do not exceed 2.5 meters in length.) The teeth are larger than any current monitor lizard, so it really had no need of an infectious/venous bite!  Scatha is longer in the neck & head, so he would be larger! Ironically the creature has been unintentionally copied by Hollywood B-movies that used out-of-scale monitor footage for cheap dinosaur f/x. (TV Tropes even covers the practice under the label "slurpasaurus".)  Scatha of course is no slurpasaurus, but a clever, vicious brute that not unlike Grendel is willing to be vicious & brutal at someone else's expense.   

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Libra1010 In reply to Zeonista [2014-03-28 19:35:39 +0000 UTC]

 I actually remembered that a super-sized Monitor Lizard had made the Land Down Under even MORE inhospitable than the rest of the local representatives of the natural world, but could not remember the name; thank you for the reminder!

 You've also caught my mental image of Scatha perfectly! 

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Zeonista In reply to Libra1010 [2014-03-29 06:10:14 +0000 UTC]

That was mostly TurnerMohan, I just threw a little more wood on the fire, so to speak.

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