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windfalcon — Mary Sue - How to Tell
Published: 2004-02-25 08:27:37 +0000 UTC; Views: 431407; Favourites: 7003; Downloads: 44656
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EDIT 3: 11/22/09 You guys are kidding me XD For goodness sakes, reaaaaad the liink here: [link] Every time I get a comment that reads "the one on the left is a Mary Sue because she has green hair and a power," I realize that they're not reading the description which contains this link: [link]tl;dr: If 'special' traits fit in with the universe, it doesn't automatically make the character a Mary Sue. What if everyone else in Ami Machida's universe has green/blue/purple hair? What if everyone else has a cat power? Does that make her a Mary Sue? Not necessarily.
Please, spare me the time from having to point you BACK to the silly description and just take a minute to read the link. You know, the one I linked to a bunch of times up above. And the link here: [link]
EDIT 2: 10/11/09 I suppose this is long overdue, but for those of you with confusion, here is an explanation on why I perceive the one on the left as not a Mary Sue: [link] For the love of god stop whining about it D:
EDIT: 6/21/09 Okay, everyone, please chill with all the 'hay is my character a mary-sue!?11" questions. I get about 3 a day now and one thing you need to understand - I AM NOT AN AUTHORITY ON MARY SUES. This picture is a parody. Just for fun. The one on the right is obviously an extreme exaggeration of a stereotype and not the definitive definition for a Mary Sue. D:
Please full view. You won't be able to read the text if you don't.
For those of you who don't know, a Mary Sue, in a nutshell, is a fanmade character that is usually extremely beautiful, powerful, smart, talented, and in plain words, perfect in every way.
These characters tend to be quite a bother in fanfiction and role playing, since they simply can't be beat, and thus become boring.
Have any of you ever been rping, and come across a character who is like, " oh, well, that planet in the way isn't a problem *blows it up*"
Or, is like, "well, Vegeta and Goten and Trunks and Goku ALL have a crush on my character"
Yep. That's a Mary Sue.
So, for people who still don't understand, I made this little picture/diagram. Usually, Mary Sues have TONS of talents and TONS of powers, and no weaknesses.
Enjoy ^_^
-Done in Copic Markers, with the background and text done on computer -
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Comments: 4629
The salt is strong.
It's still an outdated statement up for display. I can say what I want, all art up for display can still have statements made about it. Otherwise going to art museums will be very awkward.
Also just saying, you can't really mock people for being idiots when you have a lazily done base picture called "Me as a wolf". Your opinion about art is really invalid.
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Actually, it was submitted on the beginning of 2004.
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Other accounts said it was 2001, sorry.
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And Picassos art work almost 70 years ago.
Guess we can't have opinions on old art work anymore because it's old.
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Oh, no. It's not that you can't.
It's just that this work doesn't match current views of Mary-Sue anymore and the author is aware of it. The only thing you can judge is how author's abilities changed.
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Then what's wrong with saying it's wrong? the author hasn't exactly edited the picture claiming they don't agree with an out dated statement.
I'd all be for change and changing opinions but I don't see big words saying "Oh btw guys. This is old and I don't agree with it"
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Hey, don't get pushy on me. I didn't say you cannot speak at all or it's wrong. I honestly don't have any arguments as I wasn't prepared for a discussion. I only came here to correct a date.
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I'm not being pushy?
I just said, I don't see an updated statement so why are children getting upset if the artist hasn't made this clear.
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"I find this picture to heavily be outdated."
thats because it was posted 14 years ago you fucking moron
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The salt is strong.
It's still an outdated statement up for display. I can say what I want, all art up for display can still have statements made about it. Otherwise going to art museums will be very awkward.
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Lol!! Naah.. Let's the kid have their dream... and hope when they grow up, they will create more make sense character.
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eh, this isn't really for kids. kids can create whatever the fuck they want, but whenever it comes to actual storytelling. making the character a mary sue is probably one of the main things to make your story boring.
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Aww I am not meaning 'KID' is only for 'AGE' though... you get what I mean right?
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i 100% agree! let the kids have fun!
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Well, some characters are MEANT to be "Mary Sues" or "Johnny Blues"(?) MY OC, Brother Nature, has literally been called "Emmanuel"
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I get where this is going but your character getting very good grades isnt mary sue-ish, but fr i see what you mean though
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Maybe it's because of the "of course" part
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how to make a character vs. how to make an op character
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Yep my character isn't a Mary sue thank God lol
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i almost lost myself while reading this XD
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I don't get why it's even an issue for a character to be a Mary Sue. Let kids have fun making overpowered characters if they want.
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Agreed, the only times Mary-sues annoy me is in books >.>
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Yeah! Like, when I was 12 I loved creating these overpowered fun characters until people started yelling about how bad it was to do that like... let children have fun, you kno?
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And if they had such power why is it in a story that she has a "weakness" if i can even teleport i can even escape from math cuz i suck at it.
But its even a time that kids understand that its not realistic and when (im 11) i knew that people have negatives things and they are not perfect.
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Honestly my characters are still lacking backstories and people act like its such a huge issue
Like nah they're cute and I like to draw them
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honestly, the whole concept of a mary sue is really rude to kids just having fun! Its also p. sexist. You don't see people complaining about incredibly op male characters in fiction, while a female character can be shot down just for having a few magical powers.
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Actually "gary-sues" is a thing too. But I agree with you, people insult these artists on their ocs not even knowing their age, then go on to insult them on their age when they find out.
I don't see why these top artists go around saying "fucking 11 year olds"
Who is perfect at 11?? Its the most awkward time in life, between being a kid and hitting puberty, moving schools, trying to be grown up while still being a kids. I bet all of these artists were weird 11 year olds and need to stop attacking others and instead just try and help them yaknow. So many of these "cringe" artists are defensive because they've already had so much unwarranted hate
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Just hopping in here, but "Gary-stu" doesn't have nearly the level of usage that "Mary-sue" does and sometimes "Mary-sue" is used for male characters as well as female.
I've personally not seen any "Gary-stu" witch hunts, I've only ever seen female creators and their characters harassed - there was (and still is?idk) a "ranting" community dedicated to hunting down characters and displaying how "bad" they were on youtube. So although the concept of "Gary-stus" does exist, it doesn't see the extent of usage or popularisation as "mary-sue" does, which highlights the inherent sexist nature of the "Mary-sue" is!
Which really sucks D: a bad character is a bad character and i wish people would call it that without putting down young, primarily female creators
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It's just that most Sues are Female. You're not exactly seeing many boys making incredibly OP characters. And if they do, They're just not posting them as much as girls are.
Overly OP characters should not be another somehow sexist issue. It's just that more females make stupidly perfect characters.
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Fandom spaces tend to be predominantly occupied by women, fan characters and
fanfiction are also places that are highly dominated by women - it varies in some places
but in many cases there is a lot of women, therefore the volume of bad characters made by
women is going to higher than those made by men simply because there is more women around.
Well unfortunately it is, I don't want it to be, but the perpetuation of the "Mary-Sue" concept
makes it a sexist issue. You can help by taking gender out of the equation and instead of ascribing to
the poorly defined concept of a "Mary-sue", its male counterpart "Gary-stu" and any preconceived notions
you have in regards to gender and the ability to make characters and instead refer to bad characters as what
they are: BAD CHARACTERS
Is it so wrong for girls to make those characters? Especially when the representation of females, especially in
fantasy and sci-fi is terribly lacking?? Its better these days, but there is still much more progress needed!
Creating characters is supposed to be fun, so is it so wrong for someone to have fun and create something
they enjoy, even if its bad?? Because that's what people are being harassed about, that they made a bad character!
Maybe they'll get better at character creation over time, but in the end, if they're having fun, who am i to shit all over that?
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If my knowledge is correct, the term Mary Sue came from a character made by... I think a Star Trek fan (Correct me if I'm wrong) which was way too perfect.
I do not know where Gary Stu originated from but I guess It was made to not just have Mary Sue. So It wouldn't be a "sexist" issue.
Those 2 terms are used for overly perfect/ OP characters. Such as a character who has somehow the perfect personality, perfect appearance and everybody loves them. And to "balance" it out they add an arbitrary flaw like "Clumsy" or "Painful backstory"
Bad characters, as I define it, would be characters that aren't good but aren't OP/ Overly perfect. Maybe they just have like a couple of powerful..powers but they don't use them all the time. Or they could have a good personality, but not reaching to the point of perfection.
The 2 terms exist because it's a different classification.
No. It's not wrong for people to make those characters. I don't harsss people who make bad character. I tell them what's wrong about it and try to help them improve.
I personally have seen a ton of female representation in Sci-fi and Fantasy. Females can be more varied. Males usually cannot.
For females there can be the Tough type, Quiet type, Tomboy type, I-wish-I-was-a-boy type, tsundere, deredere, yandere, himedere, sciency type, crazy type and A LOT more.
For males I only really see: Tough, Quiet, Apathetic, Stupid,Serious, or Cute type. Any other kinds of males are considered wierd.
If you don't criticize an artist from early on, they won't be able to improve because they'll keep thinking what they made is good.
Before I joined deviantArt, I only drew (badly drawn) chibis. My characters had no hands and the whole body was wierd looking. Messed up should, Short arms, etc. then a friend who I had met last ye
Edit: Well this is akward. Laptop decided to submit before I finished. continueing on...
last year. He told me I should start making taller characters, learn how to draw human anatomy, etc. I started doing that. And although I'm not an anime god, I have vastly improved.
Same should go for people who make OCs. If they don't get told that It's a bad character design (by design I mean the whole powers/personality/etc stuff) they'll keep making overly perfect/OP characters. You wouldn't want to see a Mary/Gary sue all of a sudden come up in (random anime) My Hero Academia and next thing we know, They defeated All Might in a flick of a finger, Killed All for One, and killed all the bad guys and everybody wants them.
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Thanks for telling me the origins of words I already know ovob
Then why, pray tell, do I see characters that have too many flaws or
characters who are simply conventionally pretty being attacked for being a
"Mary-sue". I see characters who have very little problems being attacked
for being a "Mary-sue"! The reality is that nobody really cares what it means, they're just
using "Mary-sue" as a guise to attack people for making a character a particular
way.
There are no two classifications, there is just bad characters and that's it. Your classifications
are super vague, a good personality doesn't equal perfection.
Oh no, females in fantasy are much more restricted than males. Males /are/ restricted when
those roles breach into the realm of what is deemed stereotypically feminine. Females always
seem to occupy lesser roles, are usually the SOLE female in a cast of characters (sometimes there's one
other female), females are often led by men even when they are the more knowledgeable one,
visually females are sexualised, its also rare to see older females in the main cast. A lot of the Dere
type of characters, particularly Tsundere and Yandere are really quite gross and fetishistic character
types.
I'm not saying criticism is wrong, I believe in constructive criticism, but I don't think people should
force their critique on other people. The youtube "ranting community" would literally pick out characters
from fandoms they weren't even a part of and would tear them to shreds, most of it wasn't good criticism
and the characters weren't even horrifically "mary-sue" bad. The videos encouraged their followers to seek
out the people who made the characters and harass them further. It was all unnecessary and awful, all born
out of the notion that we all must have these perfect characters that fit in with the canon of the series, all
born out the fear of being a "Mary-sue"
If someone wants their oc to date 50% of an anime/tv show/comic/etc's cast, if they want to be the centre of
attention or be super powerful or whatever, they should do it, even if its badly written. Maybe overtime they'll
become more interested in writing and creating and honing their skills, but maybe they won't, maybe that's
not what they're interested in, maybe they just want to have a cute character to pair with their favourite character
or whatever, that's fine! They're having fun!
I personally enjoy character creation and world building, so i tend to put a lot of thought into it, but for some people
that's not where the fun is, for some people the fun is elsewhere and that's all that matters. People need to stop
attacking eachother over "Mary-sues" and badly written characters and just have fucking fun.
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People attack the OC creators because they are BAD people. They use the word of a bad thing to insult a fairly good thing. As you said. Its the same thing with the word Nazi. Its a bad thing that people nowadays use too much.
You seem to not have seen many (anime) as me because once again, I see a variety of female personalities, and nearly the same for males. Males also get sexualized. If they weren't, most depictions of men wouldnt have muscles. Have their shirt off, etc. It happens to both genders.
I do not know where you got that Tsundere and Yandere characters are gross or fetish..cistic...
Tsundere is usually a female who abuses the male and a Yandere is one who would murder anybody just to be with their loved one. Do people have a fetish for personalities? Of course. Nowadays theres a fetish for everything.
The people you're talking about in the youtube community are Assholes. None of the people i watch who rant about drawing, mistakes etflc, ever encourage people to Witch hunt the artist.
I don't care if people want to ship their OC with another character or have powers. The problem comes is when they use thise characters for things. Mostly RPs. Mary and Gary sues alike ruin them. They ruin other peoples fun. Imagine that your hosting an RP, you've made it to the final Villain.
(RP time)
Taiyazono: "Ah. I see that you have made it foolish mortals. Tell me. Are you prepared to die?" Taiyazono laughed.
Mary sue: no! *she blasts taizono and kills him and she saved the world.*
That isnt fun. That isnt nice. It ruined the RP. My (not exactly hate) of Mary/Gary sues comes from that. I've experienced people invading my (or other peoples) RPs and ruining them. And that character usually is under the guise of a normal character, so when they unleash their Mary/Gary sue..ness... already a bit far in the RP so writing the character off once they're blocked. Mary/Gary sues made purely for OC material just makes me cringe.
I too have made Mary/Gary sues. But I improved them when they were criticized. I had a character who could teleport, had Psychokinesis, fly, etc. But I was criticized. And now I've made him more of a gag character in one version (Like Saitama) and an actual god in another, explaining his powers.
If you're making an OC for fun, thats fine. But when you take the OC seriously, thats the problem.
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I've not seen anybody attacked via their OC for being a bad person, in
my experience it has been universally because their character has been deemed
a "Mary-sue"
Lmao I've seen plenty of anime and my problem with it is not just the personalities,
I don't know where i specifically said my problem with the depiction of women in media
was limited to their personalities?? It's a whole bunch of things, personality included, their
roles within the show, their treatment by both the other characters within the media and
people engaging with the piece of media. My problem is with the societal treatment of women
as less important, less serious than their male counterparts, as a sexual object, the gendered
segregation of character roles and types that limit both the portrayal of men and women and many
more problems that i cannot recall right now bc its like 3:30am and i'd really love to sleep rn
Yeah, what's funny or attractive about a character that attacks a man for a perceived slight?
And yes people out there do have a fetish for certain character types, maybe not always directly,
but it might be one component of many that contribute to a single fetish.
Your point is?? I don't go watching these ranters for fun, the only times I have watched these types
of videos is because they've publicly harassed people close to me and i've come to scope out the damage.
I've not once mentioned RPs? But yes, that is a problem when it comes to roleplay and it seems clear
that you and that person weren't compatible for roleplaying together, but rp is a whole other barrel
of fish and you're bringing things away from the initial point of discussion, which is the sexist nature of
"Mary-sues" and how predominantly young, female creators aren't given the freedom to make characters
that they enjoy regardless of how bad or good they are.
The pitfalls of roleplay is an entirely other conversation that, no offense, I don't care as much for, especially not
at 3:30am. I'm sorry you had some bad experiences with that person, I know for people who roleplay things
can get pretty serious and it can be difficult when someone is trying to exert their will over your own, but I'm rly
tired and i only have so much energy for feminist rants per day.
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You misunderstood me. I meant the person who is attacking. Not the attacked.
Again. Most anime I've seen have a female lead, had females as important roles (Queens, Villains, Lead Protagonist) etc. Females are not mistreated in anime unless it's for a funny gag or something such as Aho Girl.
I don't know what you watch but from what I've seen, It's actually the male taken less serious than the female.
Again. Females are not limited to any roles. Males are.
If they harass, They're not good people nor are they likely a big youtuber. And if they are you're probably misinterpreting their message.
Everybody has the freedom to make characters they enjoy.
Both boys and girls can be criticized for their Mary/Gary sue
I'm guessing from your last sentence there you're a feminist? Well. That'd explain stuff.
I'm not a feminist. Why? Not because I'm sexist. But because I believe that females and males have the same rights (atleast in the US). If anything, Females have MORE rights than men. Nobody has been able to prove to me that Females do not have equal rights to men.
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You don't really grasp the whole entire picture. It is not one thing, but a whole series of things in union.
Yeah a girl might be a queen or a villain, but in many cases, especially in anime they are sexualised, infantilised,
often desiring male affection or attention regardless of their personality - this point especially is summed up by
the Tsundere and Yandere personality types, they're rarely allowed to stand on their own especially in shounen
manga. Take Naruto, Sakura was universally hated despite being a very powerful character because she "cried too much",
even in my own fandom D.Gray-Man the lead female is slated for crying too much, for being too emotional and yet in both
those franchises the male protagonist is incredibly emotional and especially in the latter case Allen from D.Gray-Man is
a big crier, but he has never once been criticized for that. The lead female characters, especially years back its a bit better now, were absolutely despised
for "getting in the way" of whatever homosexual ship that people wanted to happen. That's just one example.
And you complain about men being forced into roles, do you know why? Because that's what society deems "manly",
and any deviance from that is supposedly "wrong and perverse". Because any correlation to femininity is supposedly bad...
The whole premise of "trap" characters proves this point, the correlation of a man dressed as woman is meant to deceive you,
trick you into thinking they're a woman and then surprise!! they're not...but female characters dressed as men??
They're fine apparently...
And in a lot of shounen i typically find the female side characters are often pushed to the side - see My Hero Academia, even though
I love it, the female side characters have so much less attention and all of them, even the CHILDREN are sexualised. Momo wears
barely anything and is frequently sexualised, even though she's fifteen. Don't you think that's wrong?? That all the girls are in these
skintight outfits, whilst all the men are every single shape and have a whole variety of costumes that do little to sexualise them at all??
Male fanservice, in comparison, is far less common and is often less vulgar than female fanservice. Although male fanservice
does usually have homoerotic subtext because fetishizing men isn't just enough, the creators want to fetishize love between
two men and turn it into something perverse and "other".
Heck yeah i'm a feminist, but not because I hate men, but because I
want everyone to exist equally. Being a feminist doesn't mean bringing females above men,
no it means bringing women up to the same level, because currently it's pretty shitty.
Men and women are pigeonholed into concrete roles defined solely on their gender.
Women, according to society are supposed to be fickle, incapable of controlling their emotions,
not as smart as men, shallow, vain, motherly. Men, according to society, are supposed to
be the breadwinners, they're supposed to be knowledgable, a jack of all trades, they're supposed
to be emotionless and strong. But that's not right or true and it's so toxic. People are people and their
personalities can't be defined by such rigid societal standards.
And you say there's equal rights but there's not and some of it you don't understand because you're not a woman yourself,
things are a lot more evident when you're sat on the receiving end of things. Its a lot easier to see when people look down
upon you, treat you like you're stupid, vain, shallow, when people treat your body like a handrail they're free to touch,
when people treat you like a baby-making machine, when people decide that a bunch of cells has more rights than your own life, when all this
is happening to you its so much easier to see. But this is not to make light of any oppression that other people have experienced, oppression isn't the olympics, but
it is a form of oppression that women experience every day.
I'll bet you'll say something like: Most veterans are men! Yeah, because in many countries women have limited roles or are
prevented from being in the army at all. Why? Because apparently women are weaker and therefore its the "man's" job to be strong and defend people.
Men have a limited paternity leave or none at all and have trouble gaining custody of their children! Why? Because caregiving and raising is a "woman's"
job.
The suicide rate for men is higher! Why? Because men don't get the emotional support they need because emotions are a "female" thing and expressing
them makes you "weak"
I can go on, but you get the point. Do you see how all these ways men are limited are related to femininity and the avoidance of it?? How society considers
tomboys to be okay, but if a man wears a dress society deems him a strange pervert? Because society, for whatever reason, HATES femininity!
The fact that "feminism" simply because of its attempts to empower women is seen as evil and unequal is ironic enough on its own proves that point.
I'd really direct you to The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood. I feel like it sums everything up a lot better than I do, the things that happen in that book
are happening now, in varying degrees. The Handmaid's Tale is far more dystopian than the real world, but i think that helps paint the picture.
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You tell me all this stuff and you havent said a single right that men have that women do not.
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I mean, you're proving my point with your very own words. I have laid out a fraction of the female and male experience and how they are
harmed by societal perceptions of femininity, but apparently that's not worthy to you?? Do you have an empathy for anyone but yourself at all?
The wage gap between men and women is still a thing, in the sporting world women's sports receive less funding and attention
despite female teams being better their male counterparts. Women are more likely to face gender-based harassment and sexual assault,
women face huge discrimination in the workplace and are pushed out of leadership roles entirely and often receive poor support when pregnant,
the sheer under-representation of women in areas such as STEM, HELL there have been multiple countries that have held decisions or appointed
a man in a political setting to approach women's issues instead of, you know an actual woman...don't you think it's strange that a man, who has
little to no idea of what it is like to be a woman is making decisions on their behalf?? The tampon-tax!!! Tampons & other sanitary products are
legally considered a LUXURY, this is a bodily function that women can not just turn off!! If i could turn off the shining elevator scene that vagina insists
on making each month, i would fucking do it! But wait, the story doesn't stop there, male hairgrowth products and viagra are NOT considered luxuries??
Isn't it kind of weird that a bodily function i cannot stop or control is treated on the same level as make-up?? Men also have complete agency over their
genitalia, there are places where abortion is highly restricted or completely illegal and the clump of cells is treated as more important than the person that contains them,
in many of these same places the birth control and the knowledge is also restricted, meaning women cannot access them.
In some countries women cannot leave the country without their father's permission, they not allowed to drive and are forced to adhere to modest dress codes.
But also, to add on top of that. Where there IS equality doesn't always mean that that is being enforced! Gay marriage is legal but there's still homophobia,
Black people gained equal rights but that hasn't stopped racism, women in many countries do have equal rights but the socio-political perceptions towards
women and femininity are still hugely negative, I feel like this conversation is really driving home that point.
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As long as there are people still left on this Earth, there will always exist racism, sexism and "homophobia".
No amount of protests or movements will stop that. And if you tried to make those thing illegal, you'd be removing freedom of speech.
The wage gap has been proven over and over again to be a myth.
One out of many reasons on why its a myth? If it were true, the fuck are we hiring males for? Itd be cheaper to hire females.
You're speaking about other countries. I'm speaking about the US. Yes. In other countries, feminism would be needed (though i find the term egalitarian to be better suited). But there isnt. Your entire movement (which has honestly become pretty infamous due to the insane people calling themselces feminists) is in the US, while you should be fighting for other countries. Tell me. What place needs feminism more. The US or The middle eastern countries which, as you said, have women actually being oppressed.
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Maybe so, maybe so, but that doesn't mean I won't fight tooth and nail for the equality I believe in.
Freedom of speech doesn't mean that people have to listen to your speech, simply that the government cannot intervene.
Oh it exists, as i mentioned above female sports teams are horrifically underpaid compared to their male counterparts despite winning more, female actors are often
paid less than their male counterparts, I can't say for every single industry but those two industries have a very public history of underpaying women!
Lmao and you assume I live in the US because I speak English?? Nah, nah mate. It's necessary to call it feminism because it's the systematic hatred of women and the concept
of femininity that is the problem for both genders, as i explained earlier.
You state that like it's a choice, it isn't, both places need feminism. There are different types and levels of oppression that require different approaches, what's going on in the east may be more
severe than the state of things going on in the west, but both places still need it. I think you should also familiarise yourself with the concept of misandry and the women who practice it, who do
not represent me or my ideals of feminism. Like many other movements there are layers to feminism and some are more extreme than others - I don't call all Christians insane just because
I saw the actions of Westboro Baptist Church, I understand that there are layers to that particular religion and have the ability to discern that not all Christians have extremist values.
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I know what FoS is. And as I said. No movement or protest whatsoever will stop people from speaking their mind. Do i find it bad when people say obvious sexist or racist things? Of course.
Did i assume you lived in the US? Well. Not exactly. If it sounded that way, my bad. You can be in the UK, australia, canada or any country.
I speak English and I live in Central America.
I feel like it is a choice for some places, and in others its a need.
Once again. Females in the US have it pretty good. Before you ask "If you live in CA how would you know about the problems", its because I lived in the US before.
Males can be legally announced as the Father if he doesn't prove within a month he isn't the father. He can be forced to pay child support. Rape accusations destroy a man's life. You always see females being the ones coming out. I never seen a man openly admit he was raped. Why? Because apparently rape against men doesnt exist or they're forced to keep quiet because of fear of society. Men are the ones who are told to hide their emotions. To suck it up. Dont cry. Be strong. You break those things and you're seen as weak, pathetic.
Yes. Women have also have those things. Be kind. Be gentle. Be pretty. Be smart. But if you see a women break those things? Nobody cares.
I know what Misandry is. And i know those feminazis dont represent all feminists. Im sure your a cool person who legit believes there inequality and just wants to help out. But the sad truth is, you never see "true" feminists. I've seen stories of Women invading a Mens problems event, harassing a man who just wanted to open a shelter for men to the point he commited suicide, wanting all Men dead. I never see stories of actual progress in the "true" feminist movement.
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Are you aware, that people, who truly are feminists, and not those crazy ass feminazis or whatever they're called are fighting for real equality, right?
I hope that the day will come when a rape against men won't be shut down and will be actively talked about, because it does exist. But you know who are those who usually don't let men to say they were raped? Other men.
Just because in your small little world you didn't came across "true feminists", it doesn't mean they don't exist. I might not call myself a feminist at all - but what the REAL feminism is representing is something I mostly agree with.
You just brought up one example you "saw" about radical "feminazis" and then proceed to say that true feminists doesn't exist. Isn't that quite hypocrite though?
Judging feminists by the worst side (who aren't even tru feminists, mind you) of it? It's always the bad ones that's gonna be way too loud, sadly.
Do you know what most women in many parts of the world has to go through? Hide their body? Their hair, their face? They can't be seen by others, they can't wear whatever they want?
Female chest is viewed as a sexual organ which is NOT, but they can't go topless, because it's offensive, but a male can.
"Rape accusations destroy a man's life."
Yes it can. So does a rape can destroy a woman's life. Not everything is that black and white as you try to write it off. Also, excuse me but as a woman, she could get pregnant and even be forced to have the child, depending on their religion and whatnot - a child from someone she doesn't love and would rather die than have it. But noo, abortion is the bad thing.
" Men are the ones who are told to hide their emotions. To suck it up. Dont cry. Be strong. You break those things and you're seen as weak, pathetic."
Women are told to marry and have a kid to be someone, that it's our JOB that we need to make kids and that we need to obey the man. We're told that if you won't have a kid, you're selfish, you worth nothing. We're told that if you sleep with more than one man in your whole life, you're a slut, a bitch, a whore, and men are celebrated when they have sex with a different woman every other day.
Both sides has these, and it sucks that men are taught those things, because I wouldn't want my bf to "suck it up" or "not to cry". I want a human partner, not a robot. But you see, most normal people won't expect you to do any of those. Society does.
But men are also taught that women should obey their words, that they are the ONLY one who should the house chores, it's enough for the man to go to work, go home, eat and sleep.
This could be ideal, if a woman doesn't wanna work, so the man gets the money and the woman takes care of the house work - but back then they weren't even allowed to go to work - to make a career. Women are seen selfish if they want to have a career first, and not a kid.
"Yes. Women have also have those things. Be kind. Be gentle. Be pretty. Be smart. But if you see a women break those things? Nobody cares. "
Ohhh, "nice guys" does. And then we're gonna get called sluts and bitches just because we didn't want to have sex with them or that we already have a boyfriend. And yes, I'm very well aware that there are many "nice girls" out there - it's simply the fact that "nice guys" are more common, and usually the more fucked up. And I'm not saying every guy are like this. If the shoe fits wear it, if not, don't.
If you aren't pretty, people will call you ugly (I know men does get called that too), and you're expected to put on make-up. But if someone does wear make-up because they want to, what men say on the internet? "Bring her to a pool on the first date, the make-up will come off and you'll see her real face".
Men are NEVER expected to wear make-up, to shave their legs and arms because it's "digusting".
If a woman want to wear shorter skirt because she WANTS to, she is called slut. If she wears too long skirt, she is called a prude. There is no winning in this, because no matter what, women will be told what to do or not, what to wear, do, eat, say.
Because women are taught to "hide their bra straps because it attracts male gaze" instead of teaching boys not to look at young girls as an object and get their dicks twisted in their pants because wow, bra straps.
Until all of these and even more issues are solved, female characters will be always judged much more harder than the male ones.
Also I read back and your "You're not exactly seeing many boys making incredibly OP characters." line was quite hilarious. You probably don't read shounen mangas or watch shounen animes and don't see how many males are making OCs that are way too OP.
They also - usually - do have a male oc that's only there to fuck every female character they like. Surely, there are male creators who do put personality and story into that canon x oc thing, and make things nice, and less bothering with all the hentai art they draw/get, but so do female creators try their best to make the relationship between a canon and an oc to work, regardless if the oc is just a random oc, or their self-insert.
There are lots of factors behind why female creators might have "more mary sues" than male ones, and it's all stem from the cruel shit they had to go through and the inequality there is in society.
Females HAVE TO BE pretty, smart, cute, motherly, perfect. We're taught this and so this can be easily seen surfacing in people's female characters. They are afraid of being anything but "perfect" because they will be hated - just like in real life. But then people come along and shit on them for making a "perfect" OC.
Then they proceed to list a couple of things that's "bad" and a flaw in the OC. So, at the end, the oc isn't that perfect at all, which is quite funny because they are hunted for being "so good and perfect".
As Mojo said previously, it's ok if you want to give constructive criticism - but the person doesn't have to accept it and change their oc to fit yours or someone else's character.
Many characters in movies, anime, etc are too perfect. Some people can relate, some people can't. Some loves them a lot and some doesn't.
Who are you or the others are to tell what's a good oc anyways? Sure, it's good if the OC is nicely balanced and all - but if people just wanna have fun, let them to. They are doing literally no one any harm, yet they are hunted like serial killers.
Do know know what kind of feelings those people will feel when their precious little OC is attacked just because a bunch of people felt entitled to their allmighty opinion and thought that ripping them apart will be funny and that they wanna entertain their audience?
Do you know how many oc creators get SCARED to even upload their OC, only because they are afraid they'll be ranted on? And not because they would be such a ""bad"" oc creator, no. But because these days, literally any female oc, especially if they are paired up with a canon and considered pretty can be and will be called a Mary Sue.
Do you know how damaging it can be a few people's ill rooted words to be to not only to the oc's creator but to others too?
Do you know how it feels to get hate and "kill yourself" messages only because a few people made fun of your oc and told the world to go and hunt down that so called "mary sue creator"?
Do you know how demotivating it can be for the oc creator to even just work on an artwork of their beloved OC, because they are afraid of attacks to come again? And they will too, and why? All because she wanted to have fun in her own way, and just enjoy her OC the way she is, not harming anyone.
Do you?
Well I do, and let me tell you, it's not funny at all. For years being targeted by ranters and other people will ill intentions just because my OC was a "perfect" target for their rant material. Because I drew her a lot and was happy drawing her, creating story for her. Because I enjoyed putting my Oc in different animes and paired up with canon characters. All because apparently I liked giving my Oc things I also enjoyed and had in common.
Because I dared to do something they didn't, and it was easier to hate on me than understanding me and talking with me.
I've had several people telling me they are afraid to upload their FC/OC, because they saw the shit I had to go through and endure for years.
So please kindly open your eyes and maybe learn more about these issues and don't judge the whole situation by your own, limited view on things.
The day men will experience the same treatment we get, get the same representation (or no representation) in the media like we do might be the day you all see how fucked up society is, and how sexist the term Mary sue is, and what damages it can be done and will done in the future too.
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Jeez. Thats a long reply. Here goes nothing.
Yes. I literally said that in my previous comment. It's just that you see more feminazis than "true" feminists.
Again. I never said that they don't exist. I said that they are just lesser in numbers. Also.
"Just because in your small little world you didn't came across "true feminists", it doesn't mean they don't exist." Nice passive aggresive comment.
Hm? I wonder why other Men make fun of Men who express their feelings/moment of weakness....hm.....Oh! I know. Because that's what SOCIETY tells them.
Yeah. I speaking about that. I don't see any feminists in those countries but I do see it where women have more rights than there.
No. It doesn't. A women could rape a man/boy and legally sue him for child support. You don't see as much/if at all, women being targetted for having raped a man, or even the accusation of it.
"Women are told to marry and have a kid to be someone, that it's our JOB that we need to make kids and that we need to obey the man. We're told that if you won't have a kid, you're selfish, you worth nothing. We're told that if you sleep with more than one man in your whole life, you're a slut, a bitch, a whore, and men are celebrated when they have sex with a different woman every other day. "
No. You're not. And if you're told that, you're being told that by an asshole. And I have not seen, out of many people in my life, anybody congratulating anybody for having sex with as many women as possible.
"Ohhh, "nice guys" does. And then we're gonna get called sluts and bitches just because we didn't want to have sex with them or that we already have a boyfriend. And yes, I'm very well aware that there are many "nice girls" out there - it's simply the fact that "nice guys" are more common, and usually the more fucked up. And I'm not saying every guy are like this."
Because they are assholes. They are just those obese neckbeards who wear fedoras who think that "I'm being a gentlemen. I'm getting pussy tonight"
Actual nice guys don't state that they're a nice guy. They let their personality speak for himself.
"If you aren't pretty, people will call you ugly (I know men does get called that too), and you're expected to put on make-up. But if someone does wear make-up because they want to, what men say on the internet? "Bring her to a pool on the first date, the make-up will come off and you'll see her real face".
I go to a school where not a single girl wears make up. Nobody is told to wear make up.
"Men are NEVER expected to wear make-up, to shave their legs and arms because it's "digusting".
If a woman want to wear shorter skirt because she WANTS to, she is called slut. If she wears too long skirt, she is called a prude. There is no winning in this, because no matter what, women will be told what to do or not, what to wear, do, eat, say."
Obviously. Because for a long time, Make up has been associated with girls. Hairy body is associated with males. If you want to look like a female big foot (Just an exaggeration, don't get triggered. I just like calling boys who have a very hairy body that) then go ahead.
The shorter skirt. What do you expect. If you wear a shorter skirt, It'll be easier to see your panties/underwear/ or whatever. Thus leading to the conclusion you want to attract males. I haven't seen any girl who's worn a long skirt get called that. In fact, I've seen them praised and told "You look so mature!" "You look so pretty" Etc.
"Because women are taught to "hide their bra straps because it attracts male gaze" instead of teaching boys not to look at young girls as an object and get their dicks twisted in their pants because wow, bra straps. "
Boys are already taught that. Teachers aren't going around yelling "HEY BOYS. GIRLS ARE PURELY SEXUAL OBJECTS." No. Why do Boys (and girls) get turned on by bra straps? (althought that's pretty fucking wierd) Because of sexual drive in adolescence. or something like that, idk what it's called in English. Or just another one of those wierd fetishes.
"Who are you or the others are to tell what's a good oc anyways? Sure, it's good if the OC is nicely balanced and all - but if people just wanna have fun, let them to. They are doing literally no one any harm, yet they are hunted like serial killers. "
Said it before, I'll said it again. Role Plays. There's not any "Fun" in them being in RPS. They bring Harm to the RP.
Used the example before I'll use it again
Evil Powerful Dragon Lord "Haha foolish heroes! I've taken the yetre crystal and achieved ULTIMATE POWER! Are you prepared to be sent to oblivion?"
Mary/Gary Sue: no! *kills the dragon lord and saves the world. takes the yetre crystal and places it back"
Most Mary/Gary sues don't make it past the beginning of an RP as they are usually blocked, but if they somehow made it deep into the RP, it could ruin a perfectly good RP as said Sue has been a part of the RP for a while and would make zero sense if they were just killed off randomly once blocked.
"Do know know what kind of feelings those people will feel when their precious little OC is attacked just because a bunch of people felt entitled to their allmighty opinion and thought that ripping them apart will be funny and that they wanna entertain their audience?
Do you know how many oc creators get SCARED to even upload their OC, only because they are afraid they'll be ranted on? And not because they would be such a ""bad"" oc creator, no. But because these days, literally any female oc, especially if they are paired up with a canon and considered pretty can be and will be called a Mary Sue.
Do you know how damaging it can be a few people's ill rooted words to be to not only to the oc's creator but to others too?
Do you know how it feels to get hate and "kill yourself" messages only because a few people made fun of your oc and told the world to go and hunt down that so called "mary sue creator"?"
Again. You're speaking about ASSHOLES. ASSHOLES. People who are not nice. Understand?
Side note: "kill yourself" nowadays has like 0 impact as it's just way to overused, besides on little kids and such.
"So please kindly open your eyes and maybe learn more about these issues and don't judge the whole situation by your own, limited view on things.
The day men will experience the same treatment we get, get the same representation (or no representation) in the media like we do might be the day you all see how fucked up society is, and how sexist the term Mary sue is, and what damages it can be done and will done in the future too. "
Once again, pretty passive agressive. When men get the same treatment as females, it'll be great. We'll have just the same rights as women.
Oh. What rights do women have over men?
Get less prison time for the same crime, Steal sperm and sue the male for child support, abort a fetus/ give a child up for adoption without the father's consent, declare a man the father of her child, him only being given a month to prove that he isn't. Those are just some. If you want to see more I suggest go check out
Dr. Shaym's video of Female Privileges. And if you want the view of a women instead of an evil cis male, Check out Sh0eonhead. She's a girl and still against feminism.
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This guy I swear to the honest God and Goddess. ( ._.)
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Yeah, I gave up so *shrug*
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He's a man, Nags, he obviously knows what women go through every day far better than actual women!! Our problems clearly must not exist if he can't see them :')
i am deceased
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Well that's sexist. As I said. If you refuse to hear an evil cis man, watch Shoeonhead. They're a female. Which we all know are perfect beings.
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It's amazing how the point of my statement literally flew right over your head LMAO. It's not "you're male so you can't speak!!" It's "you're a male telling a female that her problems, inherently gender specific, aren't serious or real." THAT is my problem with your responses.
It's not my fault you've failed to notice that you're invalidating vocalized concerns of women to prioritize your own view of the world, which has been lived from a male perspective and not a female perspective. As Mojomito said, do you have any empathy?
It'd be like me, a middle class white person, saying there's no racism these days to a person of color (who has experienced it and is telling me it's there) simply because I haven't directly seen it. That would be ridiculous for me to say to them, like??? I'm not in that community, how could I possibly pass a judgement of the validity of the problems they face?? Just because I don't see it from my privileged position doesn't mean it's not there.
As for watching Youtubers, I've got enough sources of my own, including myself, given I am female and have experienced sexism since I was a little girl. As has my mother. And my grandmother. We've come a long way to improving how women are treated but there are still a lot of problems, many of which fester in media and social expectation. That's why I believe we still need female empowerment, aka feminism. Just because I'm a feminist doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that men are disadvantaged in certain areas, it simply means I feel that women - who are still considered a MINORITY in terms of power advantage - still need empowerment at this time.
So please, take your hyperbolic assumptions of my nonexistent "cis white man-hating" elsewhere. I'm sure you mean well, but the way you've gone about making your argument is problematic, for the reason I stated above.
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Yes. I have empathy. I'm very empathetic.
But when something is there. I find nothing to be empathetic about.
If you were to tell me, and there be actual proof, of...idk....say... Women getting beat up at the work place all the time. It's not illegal to hit them and such, well shit man. That sucks. Hope that gets fixed. Violence isn't good. I've been beat up before for being the way I am and it sucks.
I feel like any problem you says many females have, is mostly lies or exaggerations because neither my Mother or Older Sister have been payed less, Pink tax'd, targetted exclusively for violence, any other problem.
I'm a pretty low class non-white person. The only time someone has been racist to me, it was (as stated above) when I was beat up. That's the only time. I was beat up because they were being assholes. They were not good people.
It shouldn't be "Hey. I'm not X so I can't have opinions/have judgement on problems of X" because not only X can see X's problems.
Now. Could it be that your Mother and Grandmother experienced sexism because that's during the time women didn't have equal rights? Exactly. They were alive during a time where they didn't.
You claim to have sources but have you ever seen things that aren't your ideology? Because if you only watch Feminist stuff, feminist things, etc you're obviously going to only believe that thing. Watch, read, learn thing from the opposite side. Because there are a lot of counters on why Feminism isn't needed (Atleast in the US and I'd say in Britain aswell.)
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