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windfalcon β Mary Sue - How to Tell
Published: 2004-02-25 08:27:37 +0000 UTC; Views: 431419; Favourites: 7002; Downloads: 44656
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EDIT 3: 11/22/09 You guys are kidding me XD For goodness sakes, reaaaaad the liink here: [link] Every time I get a comment that reads "the one on the left is a Mary Sue because she has green hair and a power," I realize that they're not reading the description which contains this link: [link]tl;dr: If 'special' traits fit in with the universe, it doesn't automatically make the character a Mary Sue. What if everyone else in Ami Machida's universe has green/blue/purple hair? What if everyone else has a cat power? Does that make her a Mary Sue? Not necessarily.
Please, spare me the time from having to point you BACK to the silly description and just take a minute to read the link. You know, the one I linked to a bunch of times up above. And the link here: [link]
EDIT 2: 10/11/09 I suppose this is long overdue, but for those of you with confusion, here is an explanation on why I perceive the one on the left as not a Mary Sue: [link] For the love of god stop whining about it D:
EDIT: 6/21/09 Okay, everyone, please chill with all the 'hay is my character a mary-sue!?11" questions. I get about 3 a day now and one thing you need to understand - I AM NOT AN AUTHORITY ON MARY SUES. This picture is a parody. Just for fun. The one on the right is obviously an extreme exaggeration of a stereotype and not the definitive definition for a Mary Sue. D:
Please full view. You won't be able to read the text if you don't.
For those of you who don't know, a Mary Sue, in a nutshell, is a fanmade character that is usually extremely beautiful, powerful, smart, talented, and in plain words, perfect in every way.
These characters tend to be quite a bother in fanfiction and role playing, since they simply can't be beat, and thus become boring.
Have any of you ever been rping, and come across a character who is like, " oh, well, that planet in the way isn't a problem *blows it up*"
Or, is like, "well, Vegeta and Goten and Trunks and Goku ALL have a crush on my character"
Yep. That's a Mary Sue.
So, for people who still don't understand, I made this little picture/diagram. Usually, Mary Sues have TONS of talents and TONS of powers, and no weaknesses.
Enjoy ^_^
-Done in Copic Markers, with the background and text done on computer -
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Comments: 4629
Perhaps it's because you're seeing inequality as only a physical and law-oriented violence? Inequality comes in different forms, including social - not just physical or law oppression. Mojomito gave excellent examples of the way femininity is devalued in society and media, for instance, as did Gazerei who included her own personal experiences regarding your original topic of Mary Sues. Disadvantage isn't defined solely on physical or law-related oppression. It can come in more subtle forms, such as representation and rhetoric, which is what can ENCOURAGE and DOES encourage more harmful actions and toxic, oppressive ideologies.
I'm going to skip your continued misinterpretation of my statements, because at this point I don't feel it's worth trying to explain them any further. I'll simply say that pointing out a limitation in your viewpoint does not equate to silencing you; and that again, just because YOU haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not there, and just because YOU haven't experienced it doesn't mean it's not happening to others.
Also, I'm in the US, and I see this kinda shit plenty in media and in workplaces, so it's wild to me that you'd say we don't have issues like that given that four women so far have told you there are issues in society regarding disempowerment and disadvantages of women. Do you think we're just saying shit to feel like special snowflakes?? That it was a just a "couple meanies" who were sexist?? Because that's not the case, and this happens to be serious to us, it affects our lives directly - so having some random guy on the internet say basically "welp I don't see it sorry I think you're making it up" is just.... wow. I mean, what even is the point in me giving you personal examples when you're just gonna brush it off because you, a male living elsewhere, don't personally see it and will think I'm lying or over-exaggerating by default?
It sounds as if you're telling me, who has experienced sexism first hand, who has seen unmistakable sexism occur and women affected by it, that I should broaden my horizons to the nonexistence of sexism against women. That's... interesting, to say the least. In return I'll point out that perhaps you should take a look at broadening your own horizons, given that you've pretty much said that because you don't see the problems personally you don't think they could possibly exist, even when someone who has experienced them says they do exist.
All in all, I suppose we'll simply have to agree to disagree. It's clear our ideologies differ, and neither of us are gonna budge. I can only ask that when women tell you the disadvantage and disempowerment they experience - and that that is why they feel they need female empowerment - that you perhaps give them the benefit of the doubt rather than simply assuming they're trying to be a special snowflake. This shit happens to affect our lives directly, and having it invalidated and brushed off doesn't exactly inspire warm and fuzzy feelings.
On a last note, I am sorry to hear that you have experienced violence against yourself. Going through that, even if only once in a life-time, is awful. I pray it doesn't happen to you again, and that you've recovered from the ordeal.Β
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I'm not going to bother replying to the other stuff above because as ya said, neither of us is going to budge, and it'd be a waste of time, atleast for you as I honestly don't have much to do (this laptop sucks). Though it is not my intention/intent to be "No. Don't be a feminist".
If you truly do experience sexism and not just simple things like catcalls (or however thats spelled), winking, cute nicknames, etc, then I'm sorry. I'm hope it gets better and those people can leave your life. (not in the "them dying" way)
Thank you and I have. It's been a long time since that.
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I send good vibes to your laptop, that it may be less suck-ish (I know the feeling, mine is reaching eight years old lol). As for your intentions, this is good to know, thank you for clarifying that.Β
I hope so too. At times it can be very frustrating and feel slow-going, not to mention discouraging, but given current progress I'm positive that things will continue to improve! (And I really don't think wishing death on people with a different opinion is all that productive myself lol).Β
I'm relieved to hear that. Good on you! //
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Let's hope. I can only really play 2 games at most and visit websites on it. And now that my free trial has expired on PTS, I can't really do anything productive until i get money.
Well...uh...this ended well :^)
Hope you dont have more bad experiences with people.
Have a good night/day/afternoon.
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-> I feel like any problem you says many females have, is mostly lies or exaggerations because neither my mother or older sister have been payed less, pink taxed, targetted exclusively for violence, any other problem.
Well, that's good for them and I'm glad that it didn't happen for them, but that is absolutely not a good reason to invalidate what other females suffers. You're definitely /not/ the only valuable statistic about female problems (as you're not even a woman at the first place). I still live in a place where women get paid a little less, pink taxed. Violence is not that high, but it's /still/ there, so are other problems. The females in the First Nations who are in /Canada/ still has to suffer from sexual abuse, disappearing, and murder. Not to mentions that, speaking of sexual abuse, it's still (young) women who has the high percentages about it.
As for racism, yeah sure your skin color can be a problem, but once again, it's not because you only experienced once-to-none time that you can invalidate their feelings.
-> It shouldn't be "Hey. I'm not X so I can't have opinions/have judgement on problems of X" because not only X can see X's problems.
Indeed, but what you're saying is not having opinions or have a judgement, but straight closing your damn mind and invalidating what happened to most of them. You see X's problem but you keep on saying they're either lies or exaggerating- excuse me WHAT? You litterally dealt with racism at least ONCE, you will say that we're exaggerating and put that fact in denial???
-> Now. Could it be that your mother and grandmother experienced sexism because that's the time women didn't have equal rights? Exactly. They were alive during a time where they didn't.
That is assuming that we /actually/ get treated equally and not suffering sexism right now. Which is straightly still false. Now may be better times than the past times, but these offends are still there, still present, and we're still stigmatized -perdon my canadian french- by this.
I can tell you, from a black woman living in a good place that pretty much reach everything on every sides, for both my own country and the USA, we actually STILL need feminists. It may have been better for us now, but guess what. That is NOT enough.
Even if I live in a good place, I've been bullied, suffered from harassment IRL and online, pink taxed and such. Even some immigrants, no matter where the honest heck they came from, suffered racism in Canada and being told to come back home (cf Syrian peeps, and Haitian peeps who are there because of that one thing that happened back there). The first FEMALE First Minister in Quebec was about to get SHOT after she won and making a discours -once again, perdon my canadian french.
Feminism isn't about Women being in front of everything, it's about being treated equally. And in some things, this doesn't happen yet.
Now, try to tell me to my own face that we don't need feminism and that we're exaggerating. I dare you.
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Of course I'm not. Nor am I saying that there's...(fuck hold on..)...no places on earth that treat everybody equally.
There is. Mostly in Saudi Arabia (from what I've seen and heard) and other middle eastern countries. What I'm against is feminism in the US as I've seen plenty of examples why it isn't needed/ why other places need it more.
Would you rather give a starving fat kid who ate a day ago or a starving african kid who hasn't ate in a week.
I'm not trying to invalidate anybodies feelings. Feel whatever you want to feel.
What I'm saying by exaggerating/lies is the whole Pink Tax/ Wage gap. Now. Hold on. I'm speaking about these 2 in the US. In other places in the world it's likely these 2 things exist.
You do get treated equally (atleast in the US from what I've seen and heard). Now. Will Sexism ever go away? No. There's always going to be that one person who's bad. Same with companies. But most of the time it's either the guy works more hours or has a harder job, but there can be those sketchy jobs that pay people less.
Everybody gets bullied, get's harrased IRL and online. People are assholes. The internet is not a nice place. You can't honestly expect to go on the internet anda white knight suddenly appear exclaiming "What may I do for thee m'lady?" There's obviously going to be guys/ or girls if that's their thing that go "send nudes ya slut." "fuck you." "KYS"Β
Now. The whole Pink Tax thing, I'm referring to the one where people say no matter what you buy, you always pay more.
Β Ex. A guy and girl buy cereal. Guy pays $4.50 and the girl $4.65Β
I don't know if you're referring to "Hey. This deodarant specifically made for females costs more than a mans."
But if you're referring to the latter, I don't see much of a reason to not buy the cheaper one (You know, besides products that make you smell like a man would smell like (Ex. Cologne, Body Wash, Etc)
I don't know much about the whole Quebec shit but again, It's likely just an/some asshole(s) doing it. Actually good human beings wouldn't do that.
That would be impossible as we are no where near close to each other nor do I plan to fly over to the US and do it (lol)
You don't need feminism in the US (Or atleast to satisfy you, not as much as we need it in other countries. Again. Refer to my example above)
And yes. Some of you exxagerate the problem. The key word is SOME.
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-> Would you rather give a starving fat kid who ate a day ago or a starving african kid who hasn't eaten in a week?
Both. Also, this question is quite irrational. You're assuming a /fat/ kid is fat because he ate too much. Do you know some people can be fat because of genetics and body problems? I do and know some people. Note that some people could deal with problems in different ways. This example is pretty much invalid.
-> I'm not trying to invalidate anybodies feelings.
By the replies you sent by answering Chi, Mojo and Rei, let me tell you that's pretty much what you're doing, and not by trying, but definitely, sir.
-> In other places in the world it's likely these two things exist.
That also exist here, please. Not just in other countries. I'll explaon that a little later in that reply as you did came back at the Pink tax argument later on.
-> You do get treated equally (at least in the US from what I've seen and heard).
You litterally have someone in this specific thread that are saying exactly the opposite of what you're saying. You litterally have at least 3 other people who told you they know friends in the USA that it wasn't true. There's people in the US, woman, making testimonials about how much they aren't being treated equally. That being said, once again, you're /not/ the only valuable statistic about females problems. You just saw the little part of the iceberg about it. And yet, when we tell you that we do have problems about equality, you close your eyes and keep on saying thay we do get treated equally. >_>
-> Same with companies. But most of the time it's either the guy works more hours or has a harder job --
Because we're being told this isn't a job for us, that is a man's job. Yes. Even now. This is why less women are interested by doing some "men job" because we would do better as being a woman in home being busy with families. Of course there would be the guys who has the harder jobs.
-> There's obviously going to be guys/or girls if that's their thing that go "send nudes ya slut" --
You know who are the ones generally asking for nudes and telling that some girls are nudes just because they slept with another guy while the guy gets gloried?
Boys. And I'm really not joking about that.
As for the other things, we are even.
-> I don't know if you're referring if you're referring to "Hey. This deodorant specifically made for females costs more than a mans."
That, but also of the magical Mother Nature who comes to us every damn months that we cannot stop for a while because that's what make us babies. They make profits out of it because they know we have to buy this so that we don't have to make a murder scene. Buying /these/ items is necessary but becomes a luxury.
-> You don't need feminism in the US
I already releved the points as to why we need it. This statement is wrong at many points.
And please, stop trying to invalidate by saying that we are exaggerating, for the love of Naga...
So I guess we have to agree to disagree in that case. But next time, try not to dismiss the problem we do get just because you don't see it. Have a nice night.
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You missed the meaning of the example. And completely screwed it over. What it was meaning was would you rather have feminism for something that has more rights for women than other countries (The fat kid as he is well fat, so he's had plenty of food) and a country with very little rights for women (the starving african child). You can't choose both. Say you had idk...a sandwich. If you split it in half, the fat kid would have gotten a piece of food which he could have easily waited for a bit more for, and the starving child would have gotten less food, filling him up a little but not enough.
I say that you get treated equally because every unequal thing you say has been disproven. Personal experience (Anecdotal evidence) doesnt count as actual evidence. If you could give me..idk.. an ariticle or statistics of proven unequal things towards Women that cant be disproven (easily or at all), then sure. I'll agree with ya.
To you it may seem that I'm refusing to hear anybody out but to me it's you saying things that have already be proven not true. Like if someone told me the Earth was flat or some shit.
The other part it's pretty hard to understand that. But from I did get is, do you know who do that? Assholes, douches, misogynists. You dont see normal
guys hanging out and being like
"SO DUDE how many chicks have you banged bro?"
"Bruh ive banged like 50 and got nudes from 19 others"
"WOAH SO RADICAL MAN SO COOL CONGRATS"
Ya dont.
Yeah. That sucks. But almost nothing in this is free. People spent time of their life working (idk if hard) on those and most people dont work for free. Thats just how it is.
I dont really know who or what Naga is nor do I really care.
Good night.
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Jesus christ, stop assuming that the fat guy is fat because he ate too much!
Please, stop replying if you don't bother opening your mind a second. I won't bother replying to your false arguments anymore.
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I outright said that he's fat because he eats too much. You refuse to answer it.
Since you can't answer such a simple question then alright. The answer should be pretty obvious but because you refuse to answer it because you know that I made a good point or just don't want to acknowledge it, fine.
Keep thinking I'm closed minded. I've said plenty of times that if you'd show me actual problems, I'd accept them.
Good bye.
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PS : When you asked originally the question, you didn't outright say it. Don't go add something after I answered it just because you want to be in the right for once in the entire thread. LOL.
So yes. You're closed minded. I showed actual problems AND YET YOU KEEP ON DISMISS IT SAYING IT'S NOT REAL WHILE I LEGIT SHOWED THE PROOFS.
Next time listen in class. I'm so done with you.
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I agree that he didn't outright say it, but i don't think (personally) that itd be a matter of genitics and such. Both kids would be starving. I think a better comparison would have been like the kid not eating for an hour or something. 1 day of not eating food is still a lot.
I think if you show him some links or statistics he'll open up a bit.Β
although i agree with you and find your art quite nice, dont end a comment like this. i feel like its "I'm superior than you" type of comment. I don't know if it was your intention of doing so but it feels like it to me.
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I honestly doubt he'll open his eyes a bit, which is sad. However, my last comment was really "stop replying to me" because I was really tired of the false arguments he keeps on throwing, not a " I'm superior than you".
Directed to thay guy : I won't bother read your reply. Stop talking to me, thanks.
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Well...yeah...It's just that I'm pretty sure that the fat kid would survive longer without food.
The thing I was trying to say with this was that The Unite States has a fair amount of rights for Women. I haven't really seen much proof besides "personal experience" being used to show what they say is unequal is true. Well there be...badapples, and by that I mean companies/people that don't treat women equally, of course. But I haven't seen a link to a statistic that hasn't been disproven.
I keep stating that I'm speaking about the US. If Nagisa wanted to state "Well in Canada, this and this isn't like in the US" then fine. I know very well that not all countries are the same.Β
If she/he could show me that in Canada, equal rights don't exist, then sure. Fight for equality.Β
They claim to have shown proof yet I see no links, statistics being shown. Personal experience is not valid evidence.
I'm open to ideas and shit, when they're right. Just a random example, the whole many genders thing. I personally disagree with it because it's only in people's "feelings" and stuff. If people showed me scientific proof of there existing more than 2 genders, than alright. I was wrong. I'm sorry. (I don't mean to trigger anybody with this BTW)
To me currently, they seem they're the close minded ones as they seem to not accept criticism at all.Β
They could have been "I see your point. It could have been disproven, but in X country. In Y country, it still exists." etc, etc.
I agree that their art is well done. Better than what I can do right now. I was hoping we could have ended this on a high note, like it did with another commenter, and I could watch them. View their art. (If they ever decide to respond, judging on how I see that they feel about me they'll likely say "I don't need a piece of closed minded trash like you watching me", I may be exaggerating a bit but those are the vibes I'm getting off of them). They ended it with getting on their high horse (acting superior) as I feel that they feel they are smarter and superior to me, and proceeded to block me. Ruining any chances of good endings and leaving a bad impression on me, personality wise.
PS: Who's the character in your Profile Pic? I would like to get into Xenoblade, but I don't have the money, and I've seen that character everywhere. I've been wondering who they are.
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Also, Just wanted to add to my comment above (this is directed to Nagisa): You were never in the right neither. Nor I. It was a simple question which you could never answer.
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If you searched them up instead of having them say it to you, thatd be better. I know that personal experience cant be used as evidence that a thing exists, or at least that its in a lot of places, but at least they're saying that they've experienced it.
Although you claim that they blocked you, i hope that this CAN end on a high note. Its never good to end a conversation on a bad note. Their art IS good. I found them out by looking for Nagisa fanart (Assassination Classroom) and stumbled across art for them, and decided to watch them as they had good art. I hope they can unblock you and work things out.
The character in my profile pic is Mythra from Xenoblade Chronicles 2
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I indeed blocked them. I was growing tired of this conversation and lost my temper. I have no intention of unblocking, even less when I did so that they stop replying to me and yet they attempt to reply to me on another thread. I doubt it would end well anyway even if I unblocked them to speak properly just for a question I did answered by "BOTH" (and keep that same answer, but anyway at this rate I just couldn't bother read and replying) and then not giving neither links or real proofs as to why feminism is not needed. I'll probably unblock them, but in hope that it will just calm them down. I'm just tired of this conversation as a whole. I wanted to just leave.
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Update : I unblocked them.
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Well I hope they see this and can sort things out, or at least end the convo on a high note
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Welp I still doubt that :'D
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I know that. I find it that it'd be better if THEY showed it to me so that I could be like "Ah. Alright. You know your stuff and can prove me wrong". If only they did that, the conversation would have likely ended in a higher note. They acknowledge my arguement and I acknowledge theirs.
Yes. They did block. I also did hope that this could have ended well but i doubt they'll unblock me. Again. They left a bad impression on me. If they wish to unblock me and make things right, I'll gladly do it.Β I have no means of communicating with them though unless they see this convo.
Thank you!.
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Hey. Pal. They unblocked ya
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You made no good points at all. I stopped answering because you're giving me a headache of not opening yout mind.
Don't bother replying.
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*sobs grossly* if I could like a comment - it would be this one
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Bless, a voice of reason in the darkness.Β
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gdi you just had to meme me didn't u >:V
now I gotta google dis shit
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LMAO XD always Chi, always!
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Yeah I know all that, I was just pointing out in general that Gary-sues do exist xD
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the left one reminds me of an old oc i used to be proud of oofΒ
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"father: satoshi Machida"
fellow corpse party fan?
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The one on the right is basically my first OC who had literally every power...
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This should be on the tropes page. <3
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surprise, that bitch on the left is also a mary sue
her clumsy lame oafish generic ass shows up everywhere and moves positively no one
her cat jingles is a fucking cliche that makes everyone wanna barf
she is little more than a self insert for every socially deprived nerd girl in the world and her half white heritage doesn't make her more exotic or realstic
so what you have here is Extraordinary Mary Sue vs Average Mary Sue
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I can agree~ Ami is a mary-sue. Her characteristics show up in too many characters and the weaknesses are a regular person's weaknesses, things that a lot of people have. Its not as obvious as the right mary sure though. B+ is a good grade. So it is (to me) Mary-sue in disguise and obvious Mary-sue.
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It sounds like the word you're looking for is "Cliche" instead of "Mary Sue". you said it yourself, her weakness is something that a normal person would have, which makes her LESS of a Mary Sue. Her problem isn't that she's too perfect, it's just that the model she fits into is just grossly overused.
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Tbh, Ami is me 100% (I SUCK AT MATH i mean yeah I have a B+ BUT S T I L L-)
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Jasmyne Rose Silverlight is my oc's when i was 5 years old
Ami Machida is my oc's now (I'm 11)
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Your'e just like me. Im also 11 and i suck at it.
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This helped explain to my friend that his OC is a Mary Sue. Thank you, because YOU ARE A GENIOUS!
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β₯Beware, giving a character too many flaws makes him or her unlikable as well. It's a balancing act β₯
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even the Unicorn looks annoyed with her
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