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windfalcon β Mary Sue - How to Tell
Published: 2004-02-25 08:27:37 +0000 UTC; Views: 430618; Favourites: 7007; Downloads: 44654
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EDIT 3: 11/22/09 You guys are kidding me XD For goodness sakes, reaaaaad the liink here: [link] Every time I get a comment that reads "the one on the left is a Mary Sue because she has green hair and a power," I realize that they're not reading the description which contains this link: [link]tl;dr: If 'special' traits fit in with the universe, it doesn't automatically make the character a Mary Sue. What if everyone else in Ami Machida's universe has green/blue/purple hair? What if everyone else has a cat power? Does that make her a Mary Sue? Not necessarily.
Please, spare me the time from having to point you BACK to the silly description and just take a minute to read the link. You know, the one I linked to a bunch of times up above. And the link here: [link]
EDIT 2: 10/11/09 I suppose this is long overdue, but for those of you with confusion, here is an explanation on why I perceive the one on the left as not a Mary Sue: [link] For the love of god stop whining about it D:
EDIT: 6/21/09 Okay, everyone, please chill with all the 'hay is my character a mary-sue!?11" questions. I get about 3 a day now and one thing you need to understand - I AM NOT AN AUTHORITY ON MARY SUES. This picture is a parody. Just for fun. The one on the right is obviously an extreme exaggeration of a stereotype and not the definitive definition for a Mary Sue. D:
Please full view. You won't be able to read the text if you don't.
For those of you who don't know, a Mary Sue, in a nutshell, is a fanmade character that is usually extremely beautiful, powerful, smart, talented, and in plain words, perfect in every way.
These characters tend to be quite a bother in fanfiction and role playing, since they simply can't be beat, and thus become boring.
Have any of you ever been rping, and come across a character who is like, " oh, well, that planet in the way isn't a problem *blows it up*"
Or, is like, "well, Vegeta and Goten and Trunks and Goku ALL have a crush on my character"
Yep. That's a Mary Sue.
So, for people who still don't understand, I made this little picture/diagram. Usually, Mary Sues have TONS of talents and TONS of powers, and no weaknesses.
Enjoy ^_^
-Done in Copic Markers, with the background and text done on computer -
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Comments: 4629
OOOoooohhh, That's some info I never got...
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I know right? That was out of the blue for me. Cracked me the fuck up lol
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I once roleplayed with someone with a DBZ OC who was ridiculously old and powerful and trying way too hard to make him seem likable.Β In an attempt to be funny at one point, he had him checking the messages on his cell phone, many of which were from other universes and thousands of years old, instead of helping another character who was being attacked...Hilarious, right?Β Meanwhile, I'm over here with Apple, who despite her mechanical genius and fire magic is otherwise a pretty normal teen girl...Needless to say, it didn't really work out.
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What also worries me is this tendency to create characters who are millions of years old yet still act like regular people, engaging in romantic relations, texting, hanging out etc. I mean, if you are that old, romance&routine probably means nothing for you, you've seen it all, you've felt it all, like, several hundred thousand years ago. I think that I've never seen any realistic roleplay of millenia-old characters. And I think it is actually impossible for an average person to understand what one's mind would become after millions of years of life, to actually roleplay it properly. One thing for sure, such a person would never date someone, especially if this someone is, like, 999982 years younger.
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Honestly? You donβt even have to be a girl, in my opinion, to be a Mary-sue.
An interesting video about the topic:
youtu.be/H2-GIY9RTqU
I like the distinctions you made here.
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The term "Mary Sue" originated from a 1970s Star Trek Fanfiction starring a original protagonist of the same name. It just refers to undeveloped and poorly thought-out character design. Anyone can be a Mary Sue.
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Lol this is in the video I posted.
I agree though, I always wondered why OP women were instantly slapped with this monicker while OP men were often praised as good characters.
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They are? I thought everyone agreed that, as far as story goes, characters like Superman and Goku were boring. But then again, people don't watch Dragon Ball or read Superman comics for character growth.
Being OP does not make you a Mary Sue necessarily. For instance, Rick Sanchez from Rick and Morty is practically a living god, but he is not a Mary Sue. Itachi from Naturo, despite being OPAF, was also not a Mary Sue (though when he was first introduced he walked the line). In fact, there are Mary Sue's who are not OP.
The way I have always defined a Mary-Sue is that they are walking deus ex machina's with no character flaws what so ever. If they do have a flaw, its something superficial (like a problem cursing or being clumsy) that goes away in the "heat of the moment". They are boring because they don't grow as the story progresses. They already know the answer to any problem they face, their morality is flawless, they are attractive, the center of attention, ect. Basically, they have no flaws. More importantly, they don't even need to do anything. Their mere presence resolves the conflict.
I think the most famous example for a none OP Mary Sue like this that I know of is Bella Swan from the Twilight books. Why exactly was she so important again? Just because? Got it!
If more female Mary Sues get called out over males, I don't think it's due to the fact that the "trope" is called Mary Sue. Rather it's due to the way most people write female characters which is frequently badly.
Take Luke vs Rey in the Star Wars films, two characters that I hear called Mary Sue's all the time.
Luke is established early on for being a decent pilot, and we get the impression that he knows how to handle a weapon when he takes on the Sand people. However, he is reluctant to go with Obi Wan Kenobi when he asks him to go with him to save Leia. He has obligations back home, and does not feel skilled enough to be of any use. When his family is attacked, he is forced to flee with Kenobi and begins training with him to use the force. He is not perfect, but slowly he learns over time. When both Han Solo and Leia see him for the first time, they mock him because he is so young and inexperienced. The rest of the films after that shows him becoming more confidant in his powers and skills. In my opinion, he is not really a Mary Sue.
Rey, on the other hand, is a scavenger with no real back story. We don't see her family, they abandoned her. Despite having almost zero experience in anything, she is naturally gifted at everything, from piloting star ships better than trained soldiers, using unfamiliar weapons, and most importantly, in using the force. She does not have to earn anything. Respect is freely showered upon her by everyone around her. At the end of both films, the notion is pushed that she is without a doubt the "mostest importantest character ever and is super cool"!
Rey is a Mary Sue because she is boring. At no point does she have to grow, she's already perfect. You can almost hear the producers telling the writers what they wanted; a shell of a 2D character that "seems" safe. Her back story is designed to make the audience feel sad for her without any work on the part of the writers. The lack of flaws, being naturally gifted at everything, and "underdeveloped-ness" makes her seem cool and relatable. Someone you can project yourself onto. Basically, she is someone you wish you were, with all of those negative bits removed. This is what happens all too often with female characters, and why they are called out more often for it.
Since we were on the topic (because I know someone will call me out on it), a similarly bad male Mary Sue would be Captain "overacting" Archer from Star Trek Enterprise. He was almost always right, even if that means doing a 180 on his morality from a previous episode. He was preachy, pretty much good at everything, and absolutely boring to watch. His backstory was boring and safe, he didn't need to grow, and was only important because he was the captain. Basically, the poster child of a Mary Sue.
Tl;DR: Being OP does not make a character a Mary Sue, being boring yet some how still central to the main plot because of a superficial trait makes you a Mary Sue.
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To get specific about your example, I think that Goku is a little more interesting than superman for a crucial reason: difficulty. Where Goku had to overcome personal and physical barriers through determination in order to grow as a person and as a warrior, superman was just born overpowered and invincible. He doesn't need to grow, there is no one to rival him, this means there really isn't any story to him. Concerning the male vs female argument, Mary sue (as you said) is not a term solely for women characters, nor was it ever considered such. There are countless examples of men and women Mary sue characters that even gain the spotlight of movies and pop-culture (thinking of your Bella Swan example). While I do not actively follow DBZ, I do know that there are several over powered female characters that are far from Mary sue. However, in this day and age, people seem very eager to devour the strong female role and praise it as a flagship of writing and open mindedness. While this role works well when done correctly, it is VERY frequently done incorrectly, and still gobbled up (Bella Swan, again). This isn't to say that popular male characters are never Mary sue, but as of the last ten to fifteen years, we've seen a lot of good and strong female leads, but also a ton of terrible ones that also gets the spotlight.Β
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Great points, I agree.
I think in general, we need to see more range of roles that female characters carry. As of right now, the only roles I see them get is either a super-power-super-skilled-very-important-to-the-plot heroine, the victim, or a villain who isn't really a villain because someone tricked her oh and she was also abused. In generally, they are almost always good girls, and when they really are evil (which isn't often) they go overboard to a comical level. I guess what I'm saying is that most female characters in media today lack subtly.
However, I think a lot of writers, especially for larger media companies, are afraid to break from this. Especially over the last ten years or so, trying to do so often causes people to scream about sexism and such, which quickly spiral into PR disasters. Better to just avoid the issue entirely in their minds and stick with what's safe.
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I completely agree.Β
It's really a shame that people are forced to change their ideas out of fear of ridicule. Considering that one cry wolf (in this case, one cry sexist) is all it takes to end a career, it's no wonder people aren't trying to be ambitious. This is a problem with many other characters in writing as well. To preface this, I am a minority myself (Asian Filipino), and I absolutely hate that people are so critical when it comes to making a minority character. If they are strong, people complain that it's exoticism or pursuing of stereotypes. If they are weak, people complain that it looks like they need saving by the white man. This is the realm of fiction, we are supposed to use it to experiment with topics and be free to do so as we please. Not every dip into the stereotypical should be met with torches and pitchforks, people need to settle down and give the writer a break. A huge argument is that a person shouldn't write about a culture that they aren't a part of themselves. I can see why people want to push this, but that is SUPER limiting on the creative mind. I have never visited the Philippines myself, but a white friend of mine lived there for four years. However, by this society's twisted logic, I am a more credible source about the Philippines than he is. Anyway, rant aside, I don't know how people are going to overcome this wall that society has built out of fear and anger. It's going to take some brave writers that are willing to lose their reputation in order to break it down.Β
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Lol I agree. Archer was super boring. You also make a good point about OP not being a defining Mary-sue attribute and honestly I agree: Luke is not a Mary Sue but he does share a few traits with women who have been called that.
The double standard still exists, though Iβll admit Rey (and other token female characters) do suffer from exceptionally lazy writing.
Someone once told me Katniss from hunger games was a Mary-sue; and honestly I canβt understand why anyone would think that for the same reasons you stated above.
Iβm bored to tears by both super man and goku, so Iβm a bad standard for shows or characters that arenβt about character development.
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I'm not familiar enough with Katniss or Hunger-Games to know whether or not if she is one, however I never got that impression, so the claim seems baseless at first glance.
Based off what you are saying, part of me wonders if the shear volume of token women in fiction lately has jaded people to labeling all strong female lead characters as Mary Sue's. I don't know that for a fact though, just speculation.
I also don't believe it helps that Deviant Art's majority user base is mostly young (around 25 years old and under) and female, as are it's most prolific and successful users. Young writers and artists are prone to making bad characters like Mary Sue's because they are inexperience (I know from experience, I've fallen into that camp). Also, as artist we tend to make characters who reflects some aspect of ourselves. So if you are a female, likely you are going to make mostly female characters. It all snowballs from there as you add window dressing to make your characters appear interesting. It's especially bad when the only exposure that your character will get is on a bio sheet like this. Then DA is saturated with poorly written Mary Sue's, and we are slowly conditioned into thinking that any OP female character is a Mary Sue.
The problem is only exasperated when young males attempt to create similar female characters, but I wont get into that can of worms.
I'm with you, unless the story has good character development I usually get bored really fast. I can't stand most superhero movies for that reason.
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Aheh...Β (tries to hide own works with female leads.)
I work VERY hard to avoid the Mary-sue, but I get where you're coming from.
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I couldn't really see how Katniss was a Mary Sue character either really, but I could see some of the arguments as being geunine. Her ability with the bow isn't deus ex (as it comes from actual backstory), luck almost never goes her way, and she struggles to survive despite her knowledge of the natural world. The only things I could see that could potentially be Mary Sue are: the fact that everyone in the capitol loves her despite her personality being gray and depressing, the fact that she has her pick of two good looking guys (trope found with male mary sue characters as well), and the fact that despite not showing any change to her character, she suddenly is super inspirational and willing to help everyone, even the people that she hates. Unfortunately, it is really popular to make shell characters that the readers can live through rather than unique characters that have traits or problems that we don't usually experience.Β
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Β Sorry, that wasn't meant to be a judgement against all male written female leads or you, just a particular archetype I see all too often.
I work hard at it too. Sometimes too hard I think, as it stalls me from writting. It's difficult for me to tell when a character I write is just superficially interesting, or if they are actually.
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It's called Gary stu if it's male but Male characters could be considered Mary sues as well
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I agree. Gary Stu doesnβt seem to carry the same negative connotation though.
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Father: Prince Vegeta
XDDDD
Defiantly a Mary Sue there good job!
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tf this 14 year old picture doing on the front page
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It's the new algorithm.
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I think the problem is, that other people disagree with you, some aren't whining they are showing very valid points about you being wrong, Being a "mary sue" isn't relative or subjective. It's based on solid character design, You might not THINK the character on the left is mary sue, but some more experienced writers/character designers might see her underdeveloped characteristics or stylization as being "mary sue".Β
You just have to think if these are criticism or just meant to argue because you CAN be wrong.Β
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Yeah, that bothers me in some animes or shows. When I'm trying to make, I try my best to not making them overpowered. Is just really boring to watch people making characters that are flawless, is not interesting.
...Also, Pucca in a nutshellΒ
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has natural green eyes
crawlinginmyskin
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I must say, this is pretty insightful - it'll definitely come in handy whenever I create new characters! Thanks!
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I
m starting to think that Deviantart loves stirring up old sh*t. This thing is from fourteen years ago and the author's views obviously changed and all their other works that are amazing are overlooked for this thing. The whining and crying are completely unneeded.
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Holy Shit I was born around when this was made
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why am I finding this now 14 years later XD
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Of course the one on the right is a Mary-Sue, and the one on the left isn't, but to me it seems like an uninteresting character. Like, the Mary-Sue isn't original because she has a lot of "cool" and overused powers, and some 12 years old writers create characters like these thinking they are original and so cool, but the green-haired girl has no personality in her hobbies. It's like what everyone does (well, okay, the term is "hobbies" and not "passions". But if it's just about passtimes, it doesn't matter to ask that point). I don't know, instead of liking going to the movies, she could be filmophile, it's not a clichΓ© or weird or extravagant hobby, but it would give her more personality.
Also, of course it's a matter of universe, but, seriously, cat transformation, plus having ears and tail (not claws, not fur, not whiskers, or anything else) even on human form ? (Of course all cat traits on an humanoΓ―d would just lead to a furry, but at least using some uncommon cat traits would lead to something probably kind of monstruous but more interesting and less clichΓ©.) Okay it's kind of cute, but if you create an universe entirely based on neko-jin... It's like the most weaboo thing ever ^^' (I hate using this term, but... Sorry, no choice here.) (And of course in those universes everyone transform into cute cats, not old fat and sick one-eyed stray cats with fleas, in human form they're licking their hands and will follow any mouse because it's funny and cute, but won't have the jerk attitude of a cat, of course they still can speak and think like humans in cat form, and they can communicate with real cats... Well, without any efforts to make it original, neko-verse can easily turn into a "Sue-universe".)
To me, if Jasmine Rose Silverlight is certainly a bad character, Ami Machida is too, even if that's not the same problems. I personnally wouldn't read a story based on any of those. I think a great character should have at least something that makes him apart in his world, and should be something between the normal person and the Mary-Sue. (But that's sad that people tend to say a character is a Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu for any trait that is why he is the main character. Like, big power, courage, child of a prophecy who is destined to save/change the world, these are often considered Mary-Sue traits, but if you want to follow the story of the useless but normal guy with no powers at all, well, go on x))
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"But if you want to follow the story of the useless but normal guy with no powers at all, well, go on."
The quality of the story usually isn't dictated by whether or not the character is Superman.(Well, it is, since every story with Superman is bad.)Β
Characters exist as tools to serve the narrative, and plenty of them do have somewhat mundane protagonists.
LOTR is still a great and exciting story, nothing would be gained by frodo suddenly being able to turn into a cat.
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"17" "17 but so mature, she looks older!"
... but they have the exact same face and body type though
so how does that make one more of a mary sue than the other in this scenario
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Hidden by Commenter
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Just saying your insulting a whole group of people when you use retardation as a form of insult.
oh and I brought popcorn to this argument.
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In the scheme of irrelevant internet threads this won't really insult anyone, least of all an entire group.Β
(Don't take playground insult matches on the internet too seriously xD.)
>Argument? You think this is an argument??
www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KQDIk⦠??
Well, hope you enjoyed the show...
I think I'm going to delete all this crap, stayed up late with commissions and had a little too much fun with this, it's a... a bit much
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Ya sorry I just have a retarded friend and people saying it gets me a bit mad π
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why do you capitalize random words in your sentences
is english not your first language
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Hidden by Commenter
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also you use the word retard to make yourself seem cooler and lash out at perceived slights, you are DEFINITELY a conservative lmao
god i love you
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"conservative"
what the hell does that have to do with autism
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This guy gets it.
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Hidden by Commenter
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you are, my friend. you own sixteen guns and you think "not all black people are n-words but just the ones i hate are so i'm not racist" and you are married to your sister...
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