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ZerachielAmora β Differing Points of View
Published: 2013-09-23 00:13:05 +0000 UTC; Views: 3372; Favourites: 79; Downloads: 9
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From Amnesia: The Dark Descent. Simple panels showing Alexander vs. Agrippaβs view of Daniel.Related content
Comments: 15
"Don't worry Daniel. It will be allright." Β
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I agree, and yet disagree. While I do believe that Alexander was trying to sort of justify himself and his own actions, I also believe that he was trying to make Daniel face the fact that he did commit atrocities. I guess it's hard to explain, hmm... I do not believe Daniel is as guilty as Alexander. On a scale, there's no doubt that Alexander is heavier. But in a loading screen, Daniel mentions that he could have died a 'good man' if not for Alexander. And part of that is true, he never would have thought of killing anyone to stay alive. But when the suggestion came, he went through with it. I think he knew it was wrong even when he thought they were bad men and women that he was killing--torturing. So yes, Alexander was being manipulative. But I think that he was also telling Daniel to face himself. Alexander's private thoughts call Daniel his friend, and express guilt over betraying him. So it's an interesting mix of emotions there.
On the other side, I do love Agrippa. I wish we knew if he had actually had a hand in the 'betrayal' or if Weyer simply jumped ahead. But he's so kind to Daniel, even knowing everything he must have done. Not to mention, Agrippa might have done much the same? So much I wish we knew.
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There is that too. Alexander was surprised Daniel was trying to stop him, and once he learned he took the Amnesia mixture, tried to remind him that he originally wanted to redeem himself through sacrifice. While it's true, and Daniel needed to remember his current situation to truly undertake his decision, Alexander did twist his words just enough to lay most of the blame on Daniel himself. Of course Daniel agreed to do horrible things to save himself, and he is at fault. Yet he was in fault coerced into doing them, out of desperation. I would say Alexander played a key role in that, even if he can't be directly responsible for everything.
However, to phrase it as Alexander does in those segments of the game shows he's laying on the guilt as well, to get Daniel to turn back or let the Shadow consume him. While Alexander is regretful over being unable to save him, he still chooses himself to live over Daniel, and so will manipulate him further if need be. So yes, he is saying partial truths, that Daniel did terrible things and needs to know that. However, to lay it all on him and suggest his best course of action is death is no doubt big guilt tripping.
And I definitely agree about Agrippa. Alexander mentions Agrippa betraying him, so I wonder what happened with that entire situation that led to Weyer leaving. It's all so cryptic and I'm dying to know more.
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Oh yeah, I wasn't arguing that Alexander wasn't being manipulative of course! He was, terribly so. Even though he felt guilty about deceiving Daniel, he still did it. And as you said, after the amnesia potion, I think he did twist his words into making Daniel think that he was more at fault than he was, perhaps. Daniel's memories come to him as we see them, which is mostly the torture. In those immediate memories, I don't remember ever hearing Alexander seem "bad". So Daniel is remembering his own sins, and has only the knowledge from his reforming memories, and his letters. He would be easier to manipulate, and Alexander knew it. But it's quite obvious that for Alexander, the end justified the means. He doesn't seek redemption, and Daniel does. But Daniel's revenge was more selfish at first. Alexander made him stop being a 'good man', so he wanted to kill him for that. But I think that after drinking the potion and remembering everything in pieces, that he began to want a more true redemption. I think this is illustrated by the ending where you save Agrippa. He chose another man over himself, while also destroying Alexander's chance. He took extra time to help someone. It's a good start.
I always thought that perhaps Agrippa and Weyer planned to leave together. And that perhaps Alexander kept that from happening, and only Weyer got through.
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Oh I agree. Alexander most likely did want to help Daniel, but once he realized he couldn't, focused on saving himself and letting Daniel's eventual guilt consume him. Once he wiped his memory, the majority of that guilt was gone, so Alexander decided to resurface it as much as possible. Not to mention Daniel pieces together his memories only from his point of view, and thus Alexander tries to get him to see his side of the story while blaming Daniel so he'll give up.
Daniel's revenge was definitely more selfish at first. The idea of killing Alexander at first seems clear cut. While it is possible to sympathize with Alexander, as he is a very well written "villain" (as they technically all are), he still has done horrible things, thus if you side more with Daniel, it's easy to see that his motives are to deliver punishment where it is due.
Yet to redeem himself by killing another man short of shoots himself in the foot, and how confident Daniel is in the Revenge ending makes me wonder that he didn't really learn anything. He stopped Alexander, sure, and if you supported Daniel all the way, you'd be fine with that. Yet in that ending it seems like Daniel learned the least - he just believed himself and his past memories to be right, and went through with it.
Saving Agrippa shows that instead of saving himself, as he has always done, he chose to sacrifice himself for a man who didn't deserve his situation. Which I think his fitting with my idea that even relearning his sins, Daniel might not see himself fit to live. Then again, with Weyer saying him, he's given a true second chance. I find that beautiful.
Also that's very possible with the three. I really hope someday Frictional can give us more information about that dynamic between Alexander, Agrippa, and Weyer more specifically.
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Alexander was a perfectly written villain. The memories and such that you find from him are what sort of 'humanize' him. The whole game makes you question 'good and evil', and I love that. As the protagonist, you're hearing weird things and then realizing they're memories. That 'you' committed these terrible atrocities. Do you take the advice of yourself and just go for revenge? Do you take the time to help this weird nice dead guy? My own conscience wouldn't let me leave Agrippa like that. I like to think that ultimately, Daniel felt that way as well. After all, all he remembers is how terrible Alexander is, and how he is now evil too. Agrippa is the one that treats him kindly, and without manipulation. He asks for help, and something inside of Daniel can't ignore that. Alexander is nonredeemable because of his choice to betray Daniel, that's what I feel. I love his own twisted and tragic, also mysterious story as much as the next, but it's true. Meanwhile Daniel has that chance. So, I suppose in the end, I do fully agree with this pic!
But then I still want to sit the four of them down in a room and make them sort this shit out (as well as tell us everything we want to know). :T
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I think the fact that Alexander knew he was past the point of redemption makes him far more interesting. He doesn't enjoy it, but accepts the reality of what he's done and that he'll stop at nothing to get back says a lot about his determination. Daniel has done terrible things as well, but Agrippa it seems is his true chance at bringing himself closer to change. Honestly, I can't see how anyone could leave Agrippa behind, but that's just me. Out of all four of the main characters in TDD, it seemed Agrippa did the least wrong. Of course, it's hard to say as we don't know the full story behind Alexander, Agrippa, and Weyer, but from the basis of what we know, Agrippa did the least amount of evil.
Oh my gosh, sitting all four of them down to sort it out would probably be a disaster. A very, very entertaining disaster though.
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Sorry it took me so long to respond! I was very busy yesterday. And I agree about Alexander. While he was sympathetic, his cause was immovable. And really, by that time, it would all seem 'useless' if he didn't get home. So I can see why he wouldn't want to give up, even if his love and seeing justice was no longer his reasoning. I agree about Agrippa too, you would have to not have a heart, or be doing it on purpose for other endings. Also them sitting in a room would indeed be a disaster! I imagine Alexander and Weyer nearly at each other's throats while Daniel and Agrippa sit back. Thank you for responding to my comment! I enjoyed having a nice serious dialog about amnesia, it's been a while.
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Aaah, no problem! There's no obligation or rush when replying to me.
Aah exactly about Alexander! He worked so hard to get home, and depending on the ending, it's either in vain or for his cause. I wonder if his love would even still be alive by the time he got back, but either way, he has nothing else to live for, he can't just stop now.
Oh definitely Alexander and Weyer would be fighting. I imagine their conversations while Agrippa channeled Weyer in the Nave were quite tense.
And no problem! It's great having a serious discussion with someone about it too.
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Nice picture! I really like how you used a silhouette style to create emotion.
It's strange because whilst Alexander claims to be Daniel's 'friend' he ends up blaming Daniel for all the suffering (even though Alexander was clearly manipulating him) and he is even willing to allow the Shadow to kill Daniel near the end of the game.
Agrippa is awesome though 
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That is very true. Alexander clearly is playing Daniel's guilt during his descent. I'm sure that guilt over his sins is what made Daniel think he could redeem himself by sacrificing his life to the Shadow in the first place. Now that his memories have been wiped away, even regaining them I don't think took away his determination to stop Alexander from completing the ritual.
Agrippa is amazing. He talks a lot, but is incredibly optimistic for someone in his situation. He asks Daniel for help; he doesn't demand it. And if Daniel should go through with it, then presumably Weyer saves his life. I can't watch that ending anymore without getting a bit teary-eyed.
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Particularly by looking at Daniel's last journal entry in the Inner Sanctum you can understand why he would be very eager for revenge after all that Alexander put him through.
I agree, I think Agrippa was Daniel's first true friend. I usually go for the revenge ending but in some contexts the good ending seems the best of them in my opinion, because not one but two lives are saved. I find that ending quite emotional too.
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