HOME | DD
ZombiDJ β Undertale - Bad Flowey
#comic #flowey #frisk #music #badapple #zombidj #darktwinteeko #undertale
Published: 2015-11-22 20:36:35 +0000 UTC; Views: 54079; Favourites: 2450; Downloads: 202
Redirect to original
Description
Comic based on this song:www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPLxGcβ¦
Art Β© ZombiDJ
Related content
Comments: 253
.....yes. humans have souls in the game. souls don't exist in reality, so the parallel is the brain, the center of your being. and humans and monsters have different biology in undertale. so just because a monster has something doesn't mean a human does.
π: 0 β©: 1
I believe we have reached subjectivity. I believe in souls.
π: 0 β©: 1
i believe we have not. define what a soul is in reality.
π: 0 β©: 1
well define your understanding of reality.
π: 0 β©: 1
.....my sense tell me it exists? that's not a response to the question i asked. what is a soul?
π: 0 β©: 1
Stay true to your beliefs. I'll stay true to mine. Neither of our beliefs are invalid. I'll pose this question though. If your brain controls your body, what controls your brain?
π: 0 β©: 1
depends on how you define "control". i could say "me", but since i am a program of my brain that's a touch circular. i could say "electrical and chemical impulses", and while it's true that that's how the brain runs, they don't really control anything. ultimately, the brain controls itself via a process that was built into it at conception and has been growing in complexity and desire since. what that exact process is, i don't know and nobody else does either.
but you didn't answer my question. what is a soul?
π: 0 β©: 1
"i am a program of my brain" what the 'i' in that phrase was referring to.Β
P.S. Please note that I have to stop and think before I comment these posts. You probably do too, but many different tones can be interpreted without the proper language being typed.
π: 0 β©: 1
so, you're saying the soul is the result of a process in the brain? is that correct? it's the, "personality" or "persona" of the being?
π: 0 β©: 1
For you, yes. This is what I meant by subjectivity. Do you believe life has one true answer? I don't. But I do have beliefs. I'm not forcing you to believe in anything.Β
Β
π: 0 β©: 1
do you understand the difference between subjectivity and objectivity? can you explain it?
π: 0 β©: 1
Objectivity is factual, actual, reality, indisputable.Β
Subjectivity is interpretation of the objective. (i.e. Beliefs, ideals, opinions, viewpoints)
π: 0 β©: 1
ok, so would you say that how the brain functions, what those functions do, and how this affects your being is objective or subjective?
π: 0 β©: 1
But what is 'being' in the context of what you wrote?
π: 0 β©: 1
gonna have to be a little more specific. "being"? "what i wrote"?
and you do actually need to answer my questions, otherwise this is very one-sided.
π: 0 β©: 1
I can't answer the question you just asked without understanding what you meant by the word 'being' in the "...and how this affects your being is objective..." part of the comment you posted before my last. What did you mean when you typed that word? I need you to be more specific there before I can answer the question asked in that comment. What did you mean by that word in that context? That's what I meant. My answer to your question depends on this.
Basically, what were you referring to when using that word? If you tell me, then I'll be able to answer your question.
π: 0 β©: 1
what i mean by "being" is you, who you are, what you do, how you act and react and interact in the world, etc. if it's "you", it's part of your being.
so is it objective fact that brain damage alters who you are, what you can do and how you can interact in the world, or is that a subjective opinion?
π: 0 β©: 1
I BELIEVE... that, objectively, brain damage affects what you can do and how you can interact in the world.
Whether brain damage changes who you are, on the other hand, that is subjective and depends on a multitude of personal ideals. (i.e. how you view yourself, how you view the soul, whether you believe your being is limited to the physical or not.)
This is my take. This is what I meant by reaching subjectivity. You may not believe it, and that's fine, I respect that. But this is where I reach my beliefs, despite my knowledge that there is a scientific/mathematical standpoint for everything. But science and math are not the end all be all, in my opinion.
I can elaborate my viewpoint if you wish, but it's going to be subjective. Otherwise, I think we've reached the bridge.
π: 0 β©: 1
i think you're going to have to elaborate a bit, especially in the part where you tell me how you define yourself. let's pretend your name is gary, just so i can make a point. who is "gary"? how do you define "gary"? is gary defined by his actions, his personality, he beliefs? how do you make that distinction?
π: 0 β©: 1
Gary is defined by his personality, beliefs, actions, consciousness, feelings, your definition of the word being, etc.Β
π: 0 β©: 1
ok, now we're getting somewhere. we'll skip personality and beliefs for the moment, since that's going to be a whole back and forth, and just aim for this. do you agree that the actions and feelings stem from the body and it's mechanics, and that at the very least the self-aware part (consciousness) is contained within the body? meaning in the case of gary, if he did not have a body, he couldn't act or emote and he wouldn't have a casing to to be contained in. do you agree with that?
π: 0 β©: 0
then what about the actual asriel coming on scene during the true pacifist end fight.
π: 0 β©: 1
7 human souls makes you godlike. flowey used asriel's memories and his godlike power to remake asriel out of the souls he had and asriel's memories.
π: 0 β©: 1
So who is he at that point? Flowey, or Asriel?
π: 0 β©: 1
a recreation of asriel, using flowey as the base.
π: 0 β©: 1
So, do you mean a fake Asriel then?
π: 0 β©: 1
define "fake". he's nearly identical to the asriel that existed when chara died. he isn't the original, no. would you call a cloned being "a fake"? they're identical, just not the original.
π: 0 β©: 1
So to get this straight, what you're saying is that flowey isn't asriel, but he became an exact replica of him through the use of all those souls. Meanwhile, the original Asriel is in the afterlife, being dead. Is this correct?
π: 0 β©: 1
that assumes there's an afterlife in undertale. more accurately, he's the same place he was in before he was born, he simply doesn't exist. a temporary copy of him was created when flowey became a god. like a temporary backup save, sorta. and when his juice runs out, he reverts back into flowey, compassion and soul power lost once again. but no, it's not totally asriel, since his soul was fused with chara's and vanished the night they died. it's close, but not exact.Β
probably why he acts a little yandere until you knock some sense into him. he's missing a fairly important chunk of himself.Β
π: 0 β©: 0
Honestly, yeah. I would. Even if they change everything that makes them them, they are still the same person they started off as inside. One entity can not literally change into another separate entity. Asriel literally changed into a flower and adopted that new name and the new attitude because he couldn't feel anything other than rage and fear. He's not a separate entity. If he was, Asriel wouldn't exist anymore since his soul disappeared a long time ago.Β He's still him....Despite everything, it's still him in there. So I can't hate Flowey, because in my mind, he's not even real. He's just a husk that a scared little kid has become.Β
π: 0 β©: 1
a scared little kid? maybe once. flowey is older than every character in undertale thanks to his time hopping. he's the highest LV and probably, if he ever actually fought seriously, could crush almost anyone into the ground.Β
he might have been asriel once, but all he is now is partially asriel's memories. flowey is his own person, he's experienced things asriel hasn't, he's done things asriel hasn't.
this is a little metaphysical, but what makes a person a person? is it their memories? well, memories are altered, destroyed and recreated constantly. so that would mean every second, you are a new person. and remember, the only thing asriel shares with flowey is memories. they have different bodies and biology,different personalities and different chemistry. flowey is not asriel, not anymore. probably hasn't been for a while, though exactly when he stopped being asriel would be hard to tell.
π: 0 β©: 1
Doesn't mean he's not still just a scared little kid inside.Β
I disagree. I feel they are the same person. A person cannot become literally another person. Not really. Even if you change literally everything about them. Flowey, I feel, is not his own person. He's just Asriel, in another body, without his soul. I'm not sure what defines a person, but the best I can define it is an...entity. One singular entity. One singular consciousness. It can change, into something different, but it cannot literally become an entirely different thing. Like if you break up a shelf and make it into a chair. It's still the same bunch of wood you started with. That can never change. We appear to have a different view on what makes a person a person I feel.
I do love philosophical discussions about videogames XD
π: 0 β©: 1
this is getting meta fast. but it's also about undertale, the game that uses meta commentary in place of water and food.
alright, so you think it's the fact that once he was asriel, and so he can never stop being asriel? but what if asriel died? then doesn't that mean that whatever rose from his grave wouldn't be asriel anymore?
let me use your analogy, you take a shelf apart and use it to build a chair. sure, it's the same wood you had before, but what you're saying is that the chair is still a shelf. that no matter what you do to that wood, you can't alter it. meaning that not only is that wood still a shelf, it's also still a tree. there's some essence there that makes the wood still a tree and it will always be a tree.
whereas, what i'm saying is that if you take away all the defining characteristics of a thing (in the case of the analogy, the wood is no longer alive, it's not growing, doesn't have leaves, doesn't have sap and has been shaped into a form other than a trunk and branches), then you change what the thing is.
so what was asriel? he was a boss monster, friendly and kind, had a soul, was fairly weak due to being young and would turn to dust if killed.
so what is flowey? he's a flower given the will to live and the memories of a dead child, cruel and angry due to his nihilism driving him mad, is soulless, probably the single most powerful entity in the underground before a player arrives, is ancient due to time manipulation and will not turn to dust if killed.
they are not equal, nor are they the same. and thus, they are not the same person.
π: 0 β©: 1
The 4rth wall is so broken everyone's just stepping over it now.
If Asriel is dead....Like really actually dead and gone forever, as seems to be the state with monsters, then what we talked to at the end of the game would not be Asriel. Flowey, as a separate being, could not exist as well as Asriel...because it's just a flower. The reason he cannot die when killed is because he was injected with determination and mixing with Asriel's dust, brought the little goat back to life. Determination is basically a life force in this world. It keeps you existing after death, but with no physical body, and no soul to help, he's trapped in the form of a flower. If they were separate entities, that would suggest that flowers and in essence all plants have some kind of consciousness in order for them to gain the will to life...Which...they might do. I suppose, but I personally think it's Asriel's...life force of something. The very last remnants of his being. Flowey is vessel for what remains of Asriel. Not just his memories, but his consciousness.
I agree that they are not equal though. Far from it.Β
π: 0 β©: 1
this is a heck of a wall, so i apologize.
what we spoke to at the end was a recreation of asriel created using flowey as a base, then the memories and soul power of every monster, plus the 6 human souls to beef up the magic and let it recreate him. it's the same as any necromancy where the subject comes back wrong, is repaired for a short time, then reverts to their dead or "brought back wrong" state. a zombie that temporarily remembers who they were doesn't mean that person is back, alive and whole.
flowey can't exist at the same time as asriel because asriel has to die for the circumstances of flowey's creation to happen. if asriel had survived, flowey wouldn't have been needed. remember, flowey was created to smash the barrier for asgore so that he could have his war, which asgore started because his son was murdered by humans.
he can't die because he uses determination to refuse his own death. because he's scared to die. it's not because he's a flower or asriel. asriel wasn't revived. what happened is actually explained in-game in very scattered pieces. when a monster dies and turns to dust, their family scatters the dust over their favourite objects so that they can live on in those. now, asriel's dust scattered over the garden. second, asriel already had determination, due to having fused with chara. so his will to live was much stronger than average. so, when the flower covered in his dust was injected with determination, it took on aspects of him. specifically his memories.
he's trapped in the form of the flower because that's what his dust was on and that's what was injected with determination. if you snagged another flower from the garden that asriel had dusted on and injected it as well, you'd get another flowey. a piece of asriel given will and life beyond death in the shape of a flower. but like alphys's notes said, simply injecting flowers with determination doesn't do anything, so something more has to be added to create a flowey.
but all flowey is (or at least, what he was at his creation) is a flower with asriel's dusty memories given life by determination.
let me put it this way, if i uploaded all of your memories into a computer, would that database become you? if no, then what if you died, would it be you then? because that's all flowey is, asriel's memories in a flower.
and remember, lifeforce is tied to the soul. removing a soul kills the host. flowey has no soul, so it's not lifeforce or essence that makes him asriel. the only connection is the memories.
if you agree they're not equal, then you agree they are not the same person. that's a simple logic trap. things that are identical are in fact identical. for them to be the same, they would actually have to BE THE SAME. but as you just said, they are not equal, thus not the same. similar, sure. but not identical, making them separate people. think of them like identical twins, so similar you can't tell them apart most of the time, but definitely not the same person.
π: 0 β©: 1
I agree that they're not equal in that Flowey isn't an actual person. He's just a shell. I kinda see it like being equal to ones own house.Β
I don't mind the wall. It was nice geeking out with you. Been a while since I had an actual meaningful conversation about something all around meaningless.Β
π: 0 β©: 0
Omg!!!!I love that song!!!,
π: 0 β©: 0
Oh my god... the FEELSS!!
π: 0 β©: 0
Is it okay if I use your comic in a video. I'll credit.
π: 0 β©: 0
who here read the first 4 lines and realized the song was sung by a vocaloid!!!!!!!!
π: 0 β©: 1
No it's not. The original song is sung by nomico.
π: 0 β©: 0
I thought of some changed lyrics that might work...
Is this just a dream?
Is nothing around here real?
'Cause I'd rather live my days
Just forgetting how to feel
Even if they all forget
Even if they all forget
That I ever existed
That I was ever a threat
Then down here, I would still lie
Until my very demise
Every day and all the time
I'll just stay here 'till I die
And when I'm burning in hell
When I have nowhere to go
There'll be nothing of me left
Who I was will never show
That took like 10 minutes lol.
π: 0 β©: 2
Nice lyrics, if you had actually re-written the entire song to match Flowey, I might've been inclined to cover it. XD
π: 0 β©: 1
oh wow thanks!!Β Β
π: 0 β©: 1
No prob! It's happened before, with Alice of Human Sacrifice from a random YouTuber, so entirely plausible that it could happen again. XD
π: 0 β©: 0
the song is BAD APPLE
π: 0 β©: 1
That is my fave song and it fits so well!
π: 0 β©: 0
| Next =>