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Ailinie In reply to AnnabethLovegd [2015-02-15 20:28:12 +0000 UTC]

Thank you very much!

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Ailinie In reply to Brunild [2015-02-08 19:11:16 +0000 UTC]

Thanks very much!  Yes, I thought that using Classical references for First Age designs would help to lend a somewhat 'heroic' feel to the overall aesthetic.

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Brunild In reply to Ailinie [2015-02-09 09:36:18 +0000 UTC]

You're most than welcome!!

I am really agree about this use of Classical references,  it's very suitable to the Tolkien's world I think.

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Ailinie In reply to peet [2015-02-08 19:28:36 +0000 UTC]

Wow, thank you for your comment!  I have lurkingly enjoyed your work for a while now so this critique feels like an honour

You mention some very interesting points.  Funnily enough, I was inspired by an old Corinthian helmet in one of my textbooks, but then of course altered it beyond all recognition - it does seem rather Spartan now, doesn't it!  I study Classical history/archaeology at uni so this world provides my most secure reference point as far as culture goes - but you're right, Tolkien's world is VERY much a Nordic-inspired one (with a good dollop of Christian sensibility).

I found integrating Germanic-Nordic-Anglo-Saxon elements quite difficult because I don't know much about them.  The same goes for general Medieval stuff.  The eye-pieces on the helmet were supposed to be somewhat 'Nordic' but I think they just look like... eye pieces, oh dear  However, I felt that using a Classical model for the First Age was justifiable because European Medieval history does have a Classical inheritance (admittedly not as strong during the Dark Ages as the Renaissance, but still, it's there).  It was this 'hearkening back' that I was trying to evoke, I suppose, by using Greek elements in my FA Noldorin designs.  However, they will not be wearing sandals (I'm saving sandals and Egyptian-to-Hellenistic references for the Numenoreans, aha...).

I actually need to draw up a kind of chart, but currently my head-canon-design goes:
* First Age: Noldor = strong historical-Classical design overlaying Medieval-Germanic base
* First Age: Valar= probably a combination of Classical, Norse and Romantic depictions of mythological deities from both the Greco-Roman and Germanic traditions
* First Age: Vanyar = Bronze Age to Classical Greece overlay
* First Age: Men = Medieval, but with a strong Celtic/Viking/Norse/Germanic-'barbarian' edge
* Second Age: Numenor = Medieval, but with a strong Ancient Egyptian 'declining' into Hellenistic elements as time goes on - again, the way the Gondorians look back to the past as heroic legend is something I really want to find in my designs;
* Third Age: Royal Gondor/Arnor = Byzantine to Pre-Romanesque (incl. Carolingian etc.)
* Third Age: Stewards' Gondor = Norman-Medieval (with Pre-Raphaelite influences)
* Third Age: Northmen/Rohan = Norse/Anglo-Saxons on horses hehe
* Third Age: Elves = No idea! Medieval/Pre-Raphaelite, I suppose
* Third Age: Hobbits = Middle-class Edwardian England, obvs.  I come from Gloucestershire and study in Oxfordshire so this shouldn't be too hard, haha.  I will make sure the Shire has HEDGEROWS(!) of course... sounds a bit silly but it was the one thing I was reallllyyyy missing from PG's films!

This way, I hope my Tolkien-timeline bears some reference to 'real-world' events whilst hopefully being underscored by the 'ancient Germanic' tradition that you mention.

... sorry for the long post, your comment has really inspired me to have a good think about this!  I love how, especially with JRRT's works that have not yet been adapted into film, there are still many different artistic traditions surrounding the way different places, events and characters are portrayed.  This is why I love illustrating the Silmarillion (it's hard to disengage Viggo Mortensen from Aragorn, for example).  I would be very interested to know what inspires you in more detail and how you reconcile your different influences and sources in terms of concept, design and creation.

Regards,
Lynn

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peet In reply to Ailinie [2015-04-24 15:39:56 +0000 UTC]

Lynn,

My sincere apologies for the belatedness of this response. I assure you I purposed to reply immediately, but in truth I found that as soon as I attempted to, I kept on delaying the more I mulled over your points. In other words, you made me think about my own M-e depictions and influences, and tied my head in knots a little as a result This is a good thing.

Firstly, I have to say that this is an extremely deep and complex subject, as Tolkien himself borrowed elements from practically the entirety of Indo-European history and mythology. So there’s always that. Nowadays, I simply know far more about these various influences having read up on them to an extent. As a result, I sometimes have to try and remind myself of how I felt as I read through his works for the very first time, when I was ignorant of all this. Having said that, one of Tolkien’s prime considerations when creating Arda was to bring into existence a mythology for the English people (loosely defined) - prior, primarily, to the Norman conquest - which they simply didn’t and don’t have in light of the numerous invasions, settlements and migrations from the continent throughout the course of its history.

Again, I did not know this when I first read LotR as a 14 year old. However, having been born and raised in England, this was the feeling I garnered as I read through the book for the first time, without fully understanding it all at the time, of course. In other words, LotR just felt strangely English to me, like I was reading ‘home’, if that makes sense. So I guess this explains what I consider to be the ‘early-medieval’ feel of LotR more generally, encompassing elements of Celtic Britain alongside of course a Viking and Anglo-Saxon influence. In large part, this explains why I choose these ‘costume periods’ as the ‘default setting’ for my depictions, which I feel suits M-e particularly well. In many respects, my later reading of Tolkien actually confirmed this, both in terms of reading the Silmarillion (which is the pre-historical mythology (First Age) to the pre-history (Third Age) of ‘ENGLAND’ – again, very loosely defined) and in terms of  those books and essays about Tolkien that I happened upon. Consequently, I picture Beleriand and the FA generally to be extremely mired in that ‘English-Celtic-Germanic’ tradition - but I’ll return to this later. Yes of course there is also the Christian element, which is extremely important. However, Tolkien somewhere mentioned that he actually wanted to create a separate mythological tradition to that of the Welsh Mabinogion, or of course the Arthurian, precisely because that too was too mired in Christianity

Now the spanner in the works to all this, to a certain extent, is the Blessed Realm, which I feel is less ‘Celtic-Anglo-Saxon-Germanic’ – but not exclusively so. Again, considering this, I simply have to remind myself of how I pictured Valinor and the like when I first read the Silm. In this respect, I suppose I’ve been a little harsh on you in that I too could not help but think of the mythologies of Ancient Greece at the time (E.g., in Feanor's Betrayal at Losgar , he is modelled on the Statue of David, and is obviously neo-classical in style). Subsequently, though, Valinor seems to me to be open to a far wider range of eclectic influences – some of which I still haven’t sketched out in my mind, and so to this day still avoid (you’ll notice, e.g., that I’ve practically no images from before the First Age, other than the The Two Trees of Valinor ) – which means that they are far more open to interpretation. Personally, I think this gives us more leeway with regard to being ‘fantastical’ rather than ‘historical’ when attempting depictions of the Blessed Realm. For example, you’ll eventually see that this discussion has prompted me to paint a scene of Feanor in armour in the Second Battle of Beleriand (hopefully to be put up soon), which does not borrow significantly from any ONE HISTORICAL PERIOD, but simply borrows from all over (or nothing but my imagination, if that's possible ) I can send you a WIP of this, if you like, if you give me your email address. However, what I would say is that with the Return of the Noldor, I imagine the Exiles to have coalesced with/merged into Beleriandic (or perhaps more pertinently Sindarin) culture, which, as I noted above, I envisage as being more Northern European/Germanic/Celtic/’British’ in inspiration (e.g., look at Thingol's 'Celtic' collar patterning and brooch in Of Thingol and Melian ). Of course the ‘Dark Ages’ have a classical heritage, but in North Europe it was really the Teutonic Barbarian culture that held sway, while Rome receded - at least as far as I understand it. I’m doing a PhD in Intellectual History, so whilst I’m no classicist or archaeologist, I’ve come into contact with broader (i.e., older!) European history in part via my specialist subject, i.e., eighteenth-century political economy and The Enlightenment, many of whose adherents were obsessed with Europe's Classical heritage, the Fall of Rome and the subsequent ‘barbarism and religion’ of the ‘Christian Millennium’ [c. 500-1500]).

Much more could be said about all this, of course, but I suppose this leads me into being more specific with regard to the examples you listed. I’ll try my best

* First Age: Noldor = ‘Fantastical’ and ‘eclectic’ upon arrival in M-e, quickly being swallowed up by Sindarin and Dwarvish culture (the latter in terms of armour, esp. chainmail) – therefore a sort of slightly elevated ‘North European’ look, although open to imaginative ‘Valinorian’ flourishes.

* First Age: Valar = I would probably agree with your description here: i.e., ‘probably a combination of Classical, Norse and Romantic depictions of mythological deities from both the Greco-Roman and Germanic traditions’. 

* First Age: Vanyar = Difficult for me to be too precise here. Your description of ‘Bronze Age to Classical Greece overlay’ seems plausible, but then it makes them seem far more primitive than the Noldor, and if so, how do we explain their victory in the War of Wrath? I suppose sheer numbers might be an explanation.

* First Age: Men = ‘Medieval, but with a strong Celtic/Viking/Norse/Germanic-'barbarian' edge’. Largely agree here, though the ‘barbarian edge’ I only really apply to the House of Haleth once they are firmly established as the Edain.

* Second Age: Numenor = Not so much medieval here for me, rather, more Hellenistic as you say, and Roman-esque - though actually, I view things the other way round, i.e., of the Numenoreans ‘declining’ into the idolatrousness of Egypt as they become more corrupt, and showing more and more signs of ancient ‘Asiatic luxury’ – very loosely defined. You may know more about this than me  Isildur Healed  depicts the Hellenic feel that I consider to be synonymous with the modest phases of Numenor; I'm currently attempted Ar-Pharazon which will hopefully show how 'gaudy' Numenor eventually became.

* Third Age: Royal Gondor/Arnor/Stewards' Gondor = I view Royal Arnor and Gondor as similar, though Gondor being far grander/opulent. Generally a Romanesque and then Byzantine influence, especially in the South, even with the Stewards. As Arnor declines it becomes more ‘medieval’ to me (i.e., stereotypically ‘backward’ and ‘dark ages’-esque - Bree-like, if you like ); prior to that being Carolingian, if that makes sense. I’m not too strict with these labels though.

* Third Age: Northmen/Rohan = ‘Norse/Anglo-Saxons on horses hehe’ – good description

* Third Age: Elves = The memory of Beleriand, and a small touch of Valinor, with pre-Raphaelite aesthetics, alongside Art-Nouveau and maybe Art-Deco thrown in for effect (way overdone in the movies though, I feel)

* Third Age: Hobbits = ‘Middle-class Edwardian England, obvs.  I come from Gloucestershire and study in Oxfordshire so this shouldn't be too hard, haha.  I will make sure the Shire has HEDGEROWS(!) of course... sounds a bit silly but it was the one thing I was reallllyyyy missing from PG's films!’ Again, good description. Difficult not to add elements of Victorian England also, though.

No worries about the length of your post, it was an enjoyable read - and I appear to have matched or surpassed you here anyway (in terms of length rather than content, I hasten to add)! Moreover, thanks for picking my brain, as it has hopefully helped me to compartmentalise those parts of my fragmented mind that I could not previously whip into shape! Hopefully this will help me in future depictions, which I have you to thank for now And indeed, I agree that illustrating The Silm has become much more enjoyable for me now, for the precise reasons you give. In fact, whenever I illustrate LotR nowadays it is always done in the context of the wider mythology, I simply can't help it. This gives me an added enjoyment that most people (esp. the movie fanatics) simply don't understand.

All the very best, and do keep in touch.

Peter

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