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PaperBerry In reply to Vadrigos [2012-09-01 21:17:27 +0000 UTC]

Fanfiction is fond of placing Arcee as Elita's daughter, or perhaps you refer to the movieverse in which that Arcee and Elita are siblings, but as far as G1 canon goes, no, Arcee and Elita are not related.

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Vadrigos In reply to PaperBerry [2012-09-01 23:48:08 +0000 UTC]

ah. Cause I was writing a story where they're cousins.

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PaperBerry In reply to knight31313 [2012-09-01 21:15:56 +0000 UTC]

Elita showed up one more time as Ariel, her pre-Elita identity, in "War Dawn".

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knight31313 In reply to PaperBerry [2012-09-01 22:54:30 +0000 UTC]

k thanks.

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PaperBerry In reply to Kagehahen [2012-09-01 17:37:03 +0000 UTC]

"she's too pushy and gushy and he just stands there awkwardly" - I argue this was the other way around. Or at least during the 'to Cybertron' and 'escaping the Decepticons' scenes.

But then again, I'm spotting femmephobia, so not quite sure why I'm bothering with you.

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Kagehahen In reply to PaperBerry [2012-09-01 19:17:38 +0000 UTC]

The need to discuss perhaps?

I have to confess I AM a bit biased. I used to watch the Gen 1 eps while working on the flightline as a young sergeant in the military, and we ladies would boo and hiss when we watched the scene of Elita making a hazard of herself when the Ark departed--she made herself a target instead of providing cover fire. And her tactics drove us nuts during the ep where Prime had to go rescue her on Cybertron--we kept wondering how the HELL she survived thousands of years being that sloppy. But then we had Elizabeth Fairborn and Carly and Astoria - so we didn't feel the cartoon was too sexist.

I don't know what femmephobia is--taking it literally does it mean being afraid to be a female? That's a hard one. One of my research projects was proving that being a female was being anything you wanted to be, rather than being defined by society. I did a good job at proving my point (the paper got top marks). I mean, I'm a gearhead, but I love being a mommy too so--eh. I can do both. I just don't like people being pigeon-holed by cultural expectations I suppose.

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PaperBerry In reply to Kagehahen [2012-09-01 20:44:48 +0000 UTC]

Femmephobia is the fear of the feminine, in women most often expressed as a kneejerk reaction against cultural expectation without consideration that such a response only serves to reaffirm the lower value of the female identity compared to the male one. As in, you comment negatively on the color pink. Why? Perhaps you feel that too many female characters are dressed in pink or you just don't like the color, but I can assure you that your reaction is primarily influenced by pink=female=bad. The same logic that prevents any male Transformers these days from dressing in pink, despite that this was not an odd occurence back in the '80s. The same logic that makes 'male Transformer gets painted pink' a 'hilarious' and oft-seen element of fanfic/art. The same logic that makes by far most people immediately think of blue when they aim for not-pink, utterly failing to realize that they're picking the male option over the female one and being just as limiting.

A question, suppose this had been a drawing of, say, Guyhawk and Misfire, what would your thoughts have been then?

Going by simply TSFAT, I can ask the same of Optimus. The moment he saw Elita in danger, he rushed into an spelled-out trap without notifying his troops, thinking he could save her just like that. Only three steps on Cybertron, he got caged, and unlike Chromia had previously done didn't even try to shoot the cage. He just looked while Elita tried to fight their way free and was nearly killed for it. Then somehow the Decepticons got him in chains above an acid bath and going by the fact that for the entire scene he's just hanging there I doubt he ever put up anything of a fight. Elita, meanwhile, tries everything to save him. Not herself ("take me instead"), just him. And were it not for Elita's powers, Optimus would've signed both their death warrants - his by rushing in without plan and playing puppeteerless puppet, hers by rushing in without plan and playing puppeteerless puppet.

And it's not the only time Optimus ever did things that made me question his worth as leader. Like when Perceptor was infected with Cosmic Rust and Optimus's first reaction was to pick him up and carry him into the Ark so the whole faction could get the disease. Or when he kept to faulty Earth law and led his whole faction be banished while Earth was left to the Decepticons. Even Ironhide suggested they'd kick Optimus a new one for that stunt.

I'm not denying that Elita has her flaws, like indeed during the launch of the Ark scene - whatever happened there. But moreso than her male counterpart? Nope.

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Kagehahen In reply to PaperBerry [2012-09-02 00:58:08 +0000 UTC]

I can assure you, I’m not prone to knee-jerk reactions concerning gender roles, let alone why I dislike pink. Assuming how men and women should act, dress, or respond is a limitation I avoid, given my past and future professions and pursuits. And given my studies, I’d be ashamed of myself if I did. Besides, I don’t believe that ‘feminine’ and ‘masculine’ traits are hard wired. I believe personalities and certain talents are, but not gender traits. It is my belief that gender ‘traits’ are cultural constructs created out of necessity and human ego.

In the cartoon, the bots were hardly capable of being tactical--none of them--I heartily agree. Prime used to make me just--pissy sometimes. I just sometimes had to step back and say--this is just a cartoon. But the point here is Prime's lack of actual leadership never made anyone question whether a male is good on the battle field, in the service or even life. The cartoon, of course, was written by men for kids. But when you watch Elita and you ARE an actual woman in the military, it’s damn insulting. As I said, it’s not HER as a character; it’s the characterization OF her. Not her being pretty or pink (I don't like pink because of a traumatizing experience with Pepto Bismol if I must be honest) but the fact that it’s blatant, and that she reflects on females in general negatively. There is a difference between a strong female character, and a female character as an actual PERSON. And we see that she isn’t. The first clue is that she’s an extension of Prime—his girlfriend. And second off, because you never again see her in the Transformer cartoons—until she becomes the whiny, twisted, stereotypical femme fatale Black Arachnia in Animated.

Now, would I feel the same way about two male entities in the same position? You bet. Particularly if Aiuke drew them in the same way; Aiuke drew the best out of both characters. I am seeing them from the artists’ perspective and perhaps some of my own wishes about the characters. To be honest, I think Aiuke could make silk out of a sow’s ear when it comes to art.

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PaperBerry In reply to Kagehahen [2012-09-02 12:23:44 +0000 UTC]

...You don't know who Guyhawk and Misfire are, do you? Because you missed the point of my question. As in, they're both near-fully pink schemed male Transformers. As in, what would your reaction have been then?

It does not matter that feminine and masculine are social constructs. We all know what to tag as feminine and what as masculine and opinions are made around those constructs and they in turn can build up or damage a gender. Femmephobia is about how the female gender is damaged by women's attempts to show what they're worth by disassociating with the feminine. Men are taught that their identity relies on avoiding the feminine and so the movement doesn't go the other way, leaving a very clear message of which gender's trait are the more valuable. In the long run, this creates a vaccuum in the feminine atmosphere that makes any female effort to escape the constraints for nothing as the vaccuum doesn't ask for men to undo it.

(Also, I'm starting to wonder if 'masculine and feminine are social constructs' is to gender similar to what 'I don't see color' is to race.)

"whiny, twisted, stereotypical femme fatale Black Arachnia" - I have to ask you to take a step back here. I've got a very difficult relation with the Transformers brand because of the rampant misogyny in both the franchises and fandom. My Tumblr is pretty much dedicated to it. And I certainly concur that TFA Blackarachnia is one of the worst treatments of a female character the brand ever had (though I do not concur with your choice of words). But I've learned the effects of simplified hateful language like the one you're spewing. There's a complexity of feelings female characters can cause to different people, particularly if they're the rare one out in a mostly male-filled story still consumed by both genders. It is anti-feminist to talk like you do, to reduce a female character to such words without an attempt to explore what strength another woman may have drawn from her. What you're doing is asserting and safeguarding your own sense of superiority by aggressively defining a 'good female' with no regard or consideration for how you may restrict and damage another.

And that aside, we're not talking the same Elita One here. I talk purely about the G1 version, even limited to the cartoon, and not the whole of Elita One in the brand and certainly not the one modeled more after BW Blackarachnia. Just like I'm only talking about G1 Optimus and not every single other Optimus ever.

There's so much wrong with your second paragraph, so much hatred directed at completely the wrong people and so much bias towards the female gender, that I don't know how to reply. I've tried multiple times, but each ends up being an ineffective list rather than a proper aim at the concentrated logic underneath. My third paragraph should therefore do. Along with the message that your desire to think in absolutes when it comes to gender value isn't helping anyone either.

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Kagehahen In reply to PaperBerry [2012-09-02 12:59:41 +0000 UTC]

My dear, I think you need to have a long discussion concerning these issues of yours, but not with me, and not here. Perhaps I can refer you to some colleagues of mine who understand feminism and what true 'hatred' is. But is unlikely they will choose THIS particular forum for it (bad manners to the others on it). So, while it has been an interesting discussing and we both should move on.

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PaperBerry In reply to Kagehahen [2012-09-07 16:10:57 +0000 UTC]

Awh, now don't leave me hanging after challenging me!

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PaperBerry In reply to Kagehahen [2012-09-02 13:16:31 +0000 UTC]

Don't call me "my dear". If there's any way you could communicate how you consider yourself superior to me, it's by condescendingly talking to me like that like I'm cute little kid and you're the amazing rational adult.

But refer me to your colleagues. I'm curious to hear what they have to say.

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Aiuke In reply to pika [2012-09-01 14:12:31 +0000 UTC]

er, nope O.o

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pika In reply to Aiuke [2012-09-01 14:41:05 +0000 UTC]

Now you know!

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Aiuke In reply to pika [2012-09-01 15:14:25 +0000 UTC]

indeed ^^

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