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AngGrc — Bellwether
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Published: 2016-02-24 21:40:08 +0000 UTC; Views: 9387; Favourites: 232; Downloads: 32
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One of my favorite character in Zootopia!Art by: AngGrc
MayorAssist Bellwether, Zootopia, Disney ©
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Comments: 118
Possible the best villain in Disney Movies so far.. Unless you count Scar's expanded universe!
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Anyone other than me noticed that she had a note saying "Doug" and a phone number on her phone in her office?
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I did, but only on the second time, i.e. after I actually knew who Doug is. But then it totally caught my eye, too :3
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I sure didn't, but yes, someone did ianshaffer.deviantart.com/art/…
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*spoilers*
D'aaaaaw! I just want to give her a great big hug! I really liked Bellwether and - all things aside - I find myself still liking her even after the reveal of her being the antagonist. I'm reminded of something Stephen King once wrote about one of his characters (Peter's brother Thomas from "The Eyes of the Dragon"): "If you hate this person for the things they did and allowed to be done, then I understand...but if you do not pity them a little as well, I will be very surprised".
P.S.: Is it just me, or is Disney kind of going overboard with the whole "surprise antagonist" thing? Wreck-It Ralph, Big Hero 6, Frozen, and now Zootopia? Got nothing against it, but when you shoehorn in a villain in perhaps the last half-hour or so, you miss out on a lot of time you could have spent developing their personality/motivation more. Again, just my opinion, but I hope it's not turning into a trend.
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She should be redeemed, lol.
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I know right, I still have no desire to hate Bellwether, no matter what she did. All she needs is the help of a professional prison psychiatrist in getting to the bottom of her feelings on why she did what she did. She has been added to my list on villains I feel sympathy for and can't bring myself to hate, unlike some who are judging her as a soulless monster born to be evil and power hungry, which is rubbish in my opinion. Her crimes may have been inexcusable, but I believe she was driven over the edge by other predators who wronged her cruelly enough to leave her broken. And those words you spoke about Stephen King's motto ring so very true.
I got nothing against "surprise villains" either, but I really wish they would stop doing it to someone that should be loved and not hated in the very end. Bellwether is underdeveloped and needs more development on the true cause of her motives and who she used to be before the Night Howler scandal.
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To be fair, at least they had the decency to make the Red Herring antagonist an ACTUAL villain...albeit one on a much smaller scale than the real one. Although you could ALSO argue that the true evil of the setting has yet to be defeated in full...if there's a sequel, expect some kind of attempt to find a justified, non-contrived way for Judy and Nick to defeat predator-prey discrimination entirely.
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As much I love classic villains (especially Disney villains) I actually like the new angle Disney is taking with its antagonists. The idea that you can never really tell who’s good or bad, just like people in real life.
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True. But there is always something called an "establishing character moment". While you can't outright tell if someone is good or bad in real life, there's usually some subtle hint in the way the act or certain quirks about their personalities which are tell-tale signs, not so much that they're evil per se, but that they may be the kind of person that you'd want to get to know better or perhaps never see again. Most of these newer surprise antagonists don't even have these hints and it feels like their villainy comes from practically nowhere, which I find to be jarring.
Not wanting to start a huge debate, just stating that I prefer antagonists who are set up as villains from the start, so that we can see more of their personality as it stands and explore their motives more deeply rather than have a twist. In short: it's my hangup, not yours!
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I totally get where you’re coming from and I understand your point. But keep in mind that some of the most sick, twisted, an evil people in the world, where able to do what they did because of their seemingly nice and charismatic personalities. Think Adolf Hitler and cult leaders.
Also if you closely pay attention while re-watching some of the movies, after knowing the twists, you can pick up on some things.
And I absolutely love it when the villain parallels the hero. Both Judy and Bellwether are small prey animals that are pushed around, underestimated, and underappreciated. Both of them want to change the world “for the better”. It’s always interesting to see the villain and hero be able to identify with each other. In fact, Bellwether is actual one of the few who supports Judy and even tries to convince her to join her, twice, because of how similar they are.
I like it when the villain reminds us how easy it can be to turn bad. To be in denial and try to justify what we know isn’t right.
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Ah, true. Apologies.
The reference to Hitler is quite good. Did he kill millions of innocent Jews? Yes he did. Did he also pull Germany out of one its' worst - if not the worst - economic slumps it was ever in? Yes he did. Can we condone or condemn any one action based on the person behind it? I don't know; such a call is for wider heads than mine...
Well, right or wrong, I still can't really bring myself to hate Bellwether. If I had been working for Lionheart, fetching his coffee, filing his paperwork, and writing his speeches without even a simple "thank you" for who only knows how many years, I'd've probably snapped too!
And even if that weren't the case...I can't bring myself to hate someone that small and fluffy!
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Forgive me for intervening or making it sound like I'm trying to create pointless drama in past conversations that should probably be coming to a close already. But this Hitler comparison to Bellwether is so overrated, shallow and petty that I do not understand why users have to always bring him up when it comes to Bellwether and why they can't use comparisons to fictional villains instead of real life figures. I just find it shallow and petty, even when someone uses it as if they're trying to change someone's mind or point of view when the other doesn't want to. The reference to Hitler is not a good one I have to disagree on that. I wish people would stop with the Hitler and Trump crap already. This is Zootopia we're talking about, not history class or the White House. Hitler and Trump are nothing like Bellwether for they hate for no other reason than power and domination, not because of a sad background story in their time. Not to mention someone pairs Bellwether with Trump :ew: which totally violates the laws of nature. The guy is already married, having been divorced three times so there is no way Bellwether would be stupid enough to fall for a guy like him.
Also what the hell is it with some people defending Lionheart like he is a good honest mayor that can do no wrong, and is perfect in every way? 
But if someone thinks I'm being foolish, ignorant, blind, and stupid on this, that's their problem. I only say what I believe to be possible. All of our favorite villains and tragic villains have tried to kill someone, so Bellwether is NOT the only villain to do all that and will not be the last. I get tired of people acting like her actions really happened and she's the only villain that ever tried to dominate all, but as put it, she intended to segregate predators from prey, possibly by creating an predator only district, but her fantasy became warped with the wrong methods, but too lost in her dark world to see what she was doing any longer. She's like so many sympathetic villains on my meme list. I would have snapped too if all the amount of stress, anger, fear, discrimination, depression, and self loathing became too much to handle much longer. Even then, I still refuse to hate her just for being chosen as the twist villain, when personally I wished they picked someone else. But I know she had more than one reason, and NOT just for money and power. And NOT only because of Lionheart either. I can see her lost in her anger and depression, not only because of her plans lost, but more on thinking nobody can ever understand why she did what she did, or what's like being in her place as a discriminated mammal being told that she's nothing but a "worthless" prey mammal all her life.
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I can never bring myself to hate her either, no matter what the movie reveals as if trying to make us feel that way just for being the antagonist. Nobody is born evil, something triggers them on that path. Lionheart never even apologized for his mistreatment toward Bellwether.
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Yes, it is a rather complicated subject. My point is that people like Hitler had to rise to power first. He manipulated and persuaded others to agree with him and got support. And sometimes the worst kind of evil is the one we can’t always recognise.
I can understand not hating a character personally, but more of hating what they do. Yes, Lionheart was totally jerk to Bellwether. But that alone did not justify Bellwether attempting to turn everyone on ALL predators. That’s one of the things that I really liked about the moral of the movie: That ANYONE can be prejudice. Even if they don’t think or mean it.
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Hitler and Trump comparisons with Bellwether are a load of overrated crap that are nothing like her, as neither of them had any true reasons to hate the ones they tried to destroy, but Bellwether sure did. I don't care what the hell Hitler had when he rose to power, that doesn't make him Bellwether and the reasons behind her actions are nothing compared to the real damage he caused. People need to shut up about Hitler and Trump already, and use a bigger more evil villain to compare...like Fire Lord Ozai, a real tyrant and master of domination, dictatorship, and genocide.
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Okay, 2 things:
1. I wrote most of these comments almost a year ago. If you’re honestly still that hung up on it, then I think you seriously have a problem. In the immortal words of Chief Bogo: “Let. It. Go.”
2. I have come to terms with the fact that we are very different people who have very different views and opinions. You see Dawn Bellwether as some sweet, innocent and misunderstood little angel, who didn’t do anything wrong. While I see her for what she’s presented to be in the film: a villain.
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I don't see Dawn as an complete innocent angel that can do no wrong as you think I do, I just see her as someone who came from the same background of prejudice, bullying, abuse, and trauma like Chirin, Randall Boggs, Lord Shen, Baby Doll, Two-Face, Mr. Freeze, Agatha Prenderghast, Phantom of the Opera, Callaghan, Lucy/Nyu (Elfen Lied), and Hama the Bloodbender. I get that none of them are complete angels and may have chosen to do the things they did years forward, but being villains doesn't make me hate them so easily when most of them are blinded by pain, anger, fear, and everything that happened against them. Nobody is a complete innocent angel, not even the heroes. The only problem I have is some who think there is something wrong with people who feel sympathy for villains they don't and treat it like it's a deadly sin.
I'm just saying I've seen worse villains that deserve the title of being called Hitler/terrorist more than Bellwether, planning everything out correctly, never going down that easily, and always having a backup plan: Joker, Syndrome, Riddler, Fire Lord Ozai, and Kuvira.
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But you don’t actually know that, do you? You just assume or interpret it that way, without any actual evidence.
For all we know, Bellwether could have easily come from a very happy, stable, privileged and elitist background. Perhaps she’s simply use to getting what she wants, and when someone denied her of that, she resorted to any means necessary in order to get it. Maybe she felt that she deserved to be in charge more than Lionheart because she was prey and he was a predator.
Of course all of this is only a possibility, and it’s just as equally probable as her having some “hypothetical” tragic backstory.
All of the characters you mentioned were given an actual reason for what they did and for us to sympathize with them. Bellwether’s only reason is because her boss was a jerk to her and that’s it. There might be other factors, but that’s the only/main reason that’s presented to us in the film. And you can’t just ignore or excuse what she actually did, because of something that may or may not have even happened to her. You can’t rule a theory over facts.
The only reason I compare a character like Bellwether to someone like Hitler or terrorists is because they still use the exact same methods. Mainly: fear, violence and hatred.
I’m not saying that Dawn Bellwether is pure evil or that she’s completely unredeemable. But considering everything she’s done and how she’s portrayed in the film, we’re not suppose to think much else about her.
Seriously, I thought we ended this conversation a year ago, why are you suddenly replying to me now?
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I assume this from the little clues gathered in the film and from what WIKIA mentions that she once endured a life of neglect the same as Judy, which I can assume her situation was a lot worse than what Judy went through, having friends and family to turn to for support while Bellwether had nobody to help her. Some people handle things differently, and there is no way her life could have been extremely happy or else they would have mentioned it and told us her backstory like they did for Nick and Judy, but left us guessing where her prejudice toward predators came from since nobody is born evil and prejudice. I doubt she was someone who turned evil when she didn't get what she wanted. That's not how it goes. Her boss is the only thing they showed us in the film, but I still doubt Lionheart was the only reason behind her actions, only he was the last straw on her part.
Bellwether deserves no comparison to Hitler because her actions are nothing compared to his. People born into power are the ones who crave it, especially characters like Fire Lord Ozai who started their reign of terror once being in that position, making themselves known instead of hiding in an office, and she still could have kept most predators hidden to use as her own personal weapons against huge crowds and made herself known which she didn't. You can ask why she's nothing like Hitler and Trump. But yes, you're right. We really did end this conversation years ago, so there is no point in continuing it now. It has ended. I got nothing more to say.
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What clues in the film? Are they even really clues?
On which WIKIA exactly? For that matter, why would you even trust what a WIKIA says anyways? They can be edited by anyone.
How do you know for sure that Bellwether had a hard life and no support growing up?
“There is no way her life could have been extremely happy or else they would have mentioned it and told us her backstory.”
How do you know that for certain? So by your logic, you’re saying that if a character is happy and stable it has to be stated. But if a character is emotional disturbed it doesn’t have to be explained at all?
But Nick and Judy are the protagonists of the film who have actual character development and a relationship. Bellwether is just the villain.
Or she could have just been using prejudice as an excuse or justification for her evil plans.
You’re also forgetting about sociopaths. People who are born with malicious intents and have no remorse but can act completely normal and well-adjusted.
Why not? Who’s to say she wasn’t bad to being with? Maybe not pure evil, but a spoiled brat?
How what goes exactly?
But there’s no other evidence or implications presented to us in the film.
Maybe not to the same extent but it’s still the same tactics. Spreading fear and paranoia, usually through violence. Dividing the pubic and then turning them on smaller and specific group(s).
Whether or not someone is born into power, doesn’t make them any more or less susceptible to corruption.
That’s because Bellwether is a smart villain. She gained her position by framing Lionheart and maintained it through the growing fear of predators. She’s not a supervillain, she’s a politician.
So why did you reply to me in the first place?
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I replied because I wanted to make it clear that no matter how often movies want us to see most of their villains when it comes to no real backstory, no backup plans, or any further development, we are left to assume where they came from by ourselves, because nobody is born wanting to take over the world or whatever. Besides, Lionheart may have cared for the city, but that doesn't make him a good guy, because he cared more about his own reputation when saying "I'll be ruined" instead of "The city will be ruined" or whatever without mentioning himself too much. So whatever else he did to make Bellwether hate him so much off screen, it's no wonder she framed him, but she could have killed him herself if she wanted to, or even killed the missing predators and stage some kind of freak accident. I doubt Bellwether was born a sociopath as there are still no clues to this or any mention of her backstory, all we're told is that she came from the same background as Judy, but dealt with it a different way. She's not even a real life politician so I wouldn't even dare use Hitler or Trump for any petty comparisons. I don't have to say anything further on why I don't see her as born evil. I rest my case.
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But why now exactly? Why not a year ago when this conversation was still relevant?
So, you’re basically admitting that most of what you said about Bellwether is based on your own assumptions and interpretations rather than what’s actually presented?
While I will admit that Lionheart isn’t perfect either, he’s still a lot better in comparison to Bellwether. Although his motives may have been somewhat selfish, he still showed care and concern for the public and tried to do what he thought was the right thing. He also makes a good point about a lion mayor trying to be impartial to the notion of predators going savage. And in a time of crisis, it’s very important to have a leader you can trust.
Except we can’t just assume how he treated her all the time off screen. Or maybe she mainly hated him simply because he was a predator. Besides, there are a lot of people who hate their bosses because of the way they are treated by them. But that doesn’t excuse or justify putting innocent lives in danger.
Like I said, Bellwether’s smart. She wouldn’t have Lionheart killed, because not only would that be highly suspicious, but the suspicion could be on her. Instead, she needed the public to believe that predators were potentially dangerous to force Lionheart out of office. And when Lionheart tried to cover it up, she still used it to her advantage. She just needed someone to expose him, like Judy. Manipulation is a lot more effective than murder. (Plus, it’s a Disney movie.)
A sociopath is defined by their behavior, not their upbringing. Bellwether acts normal, has malicious intents and shows no signs of remorse. So it’s still a valid possibility. And where exactly is it stated that her background is similar to Judy’s? And I want a legitimate answer.
Of course she’s obviously not a real life politician, but she represents one. Lying, manipulative, deceptive and corrupt. They’re not petty comparisons, they’re actual comparisons. They both used the same strategies to get the same results.
You don’t have anything else to say, because you don’t have any actual evidence to support your opinions. So far, your statements have only been supported by your own assumptions, interpretations and ambiguity.
I’m not saying that Dawn Bellwether doesn’t have some possible tragic backstory. What I’m saying is that there is no definite proof given to support this theory. And that’s all it is, a theory.
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That still doesn't make Lionheart a good guy just because he had good intentions, keeping the police on a wild goose chase like that to crack the case while knowing all where they were and never reported this on why he had to contain them, and never contact their families on what was happening, thinking he was going to keep it a secret forever. But it was gonna come out sometime. So I doubt he will ever be reinstated as mayor ever again, having lost trust in the public, no matter how good his intentions were. He didn't even show any real concern for Bellwether, but only attempted to make himself look like the hero and the victim in everything, which he was not. After what he did, he shouldn't be mayor ever again. I don't need a lot of evidence to support my opinions and point of view, I can already make attempts at what I see that don't even make her a real politician like they one you're defining her as, which she is far from. I've still seen worse villains that did not go down that easily like she did. Too many things make it seem like she was trying to hard to be something she's not, not fit to be a true villain like all the others who know how to make themselves known when placed in power and starting their reign of terror right away.
I'm not talking to you anymore. And I ain't gonna answer why I spoke. Some words just needed to be said. If people just want to see her as evil for the sake of it, there's nothing I can do. But if others want to view her as sympathetic the other way, others need to accept that and not take it like someone in support of real terrorism.
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He’s still better than Bellwether. One of, if not the major reason he didn’t wanted anybody to know, was because he didn’t want to start a panic.
I think Lionheart already knew all that. Besides, judging by his attitude at the end of film, it doesn’t seem to really bother him that much. I think he’s just happy that his reputation was somewhat salvaged and that Bellwether was stopped and brought to justice for what she did.
“I don't need a lot of evidence to support my opinions and point of view”
You don’t have any evidence at all. And you’re going to need it if you try to argue your opinion as a fact, and then criticize those who don’t agree with you.
Bellwether was hardly taken down easily, considering that she almost won. What “things” exactly? Not all villains are the same. There’s no “evil villain” rulebook or guideline that you have to follow. Bellwether is presented to be a good “modern” type of villain. One that’s obviously not dumb enough to flaunt her power or evil intentions. And that’s what makes her so dangerous and realistic as a villain.
You’re not talking to me anymore because you’ve been proven wrong. You probably replied to me because you were either bored or looking for a fight. No words needed to be said, because we originally ended this conversation a year ago. And I keep telling you that I don’t think she’s pure evil, but you’re not even willing to admit that she’s certainly not innocent either. There’s a big deference between sympathizing with a character and completely excusing their bad behaviour. People need to be held accountable for their actions and stop blaming it on someone or something else.
You know, I may have made these comments almost a year ago, but I’ve actually matured since then. But you’re still the same stubborn, delusional and biased hypocrite you always were!
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You have argued over and over again, that the reason that Bellwether did what she did was because of tragic backstory. To which you have given no proof whatsoever. You see what you want to see, not what’s actually there. And you completely ignore or dismiss any facts that disagree with your opinion. That shows how delusional you are.
Motivation is one of the most important parts of a character. If you honestly think that a character who tries to wage war is better than one who tries to keep the peace, then you must have some really disturbing morals.
I am actually willing to compromise, where you are not. That shows how stubborn you are.
As I stated before, Lionheart doesn’t seem to care that much about it. Again, we can’t just assume how he treats all his coworkers all the time based solely on a couple of brief scenes we see him have with Bellwether. Lionheart is not trying to be the hero or the victim. He’s simply trying to set the record straight that he was not in any way associated with Bellwether’s plans. You’re basically saying that we should assume the worst about Lionheart, but the best about Bellwether, even though Bellwether did far worse than Lionheart. That just shows how bias and hypocritical you are.
You’re not convinced because you’re not willing to listen to reason. And I’m starting to suspect that the real reason you’re so sympathetic towards and defensive of Dawn Bellwether is because you’re a lot like her.
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Except, as far as we know, she’s just a villain, not a tragic villain. I still wouldn’t credit a WIKIA as a reliable source. I was referring more to being blinded by or trying to justify one’s own biased beliefs.
I will agree with you on the fact that nobody is born evil (with maybe the exception of sociopaths). But you also have to admit that a negative experience doesn’t justify or excuse one’s own negative choices or actions.
Now that I can somewhat understand. I’m not saying that you can’t still feel sympathy towards Bellwether or believe that there might be a better reason for her behaviour. But if people just see her as villain, then they just see her as villain, because that’s what she’s presented to be in the film. And while some may consider pure evil, I think most just think of her as one-note.
The main problem with Bellwether’s character is that she didn’t get enough screen time. (Which kind of makes sense considering that A. it’s a mystery, and B. the story is meant to focus more on Nick and Judy’s characters and their developing relationship). So it’s really hard to judge her character on a whole. She was portrayed as a sweet, funny, sympathetic and likable character throughout the majority of the film. That’s is, up until her big reveal at the climax. And during the reveal, she pretty much went into all out “evil villain” mode. It also doesn’t help that she shows no sign of remorse after her defeat. I’m not saying that Bellwether was always or will always be bad, but as through the course of the film is concerned, she most certainly is bad.
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Well I'm just not going to call her a total evil villain like everyone else wants me to see, just because they bring up stupid Hitler or Trump for ridiculous stupid comparisons instead of using other villains. It just feels too easy assuming this is all because of the mayor which is not even all that convincing for me, or else she'd be acting unlikeable from the start like Kind Candy. Rather than use real life figures which is overrated, I will say her motive is similar to Scarecrow, Pitch Black, and Princess Azula, who rely on fear to control others. Then again, I kept seeing/imagining Princess Azula in her place walking in between two Fire Nation soldiers. That's what she was becoming, her blind rage blocking everything else from her mind.
She didn't get enough screentime because I do get it was Nick and Judy's story more than the others. But to just easily assume she is just another power hungry mammal who wants nothing more than money and power for the sake of it is just another cliché used too many times with other villains already, and nobody here said her actions are condoned like the others I mentioned. Of course nothing can condone their actions that they might have chosen to take out on cities. In the end, they still become apprehended for their crimes and given time to think back on everything. So lucky her life was spared in the end, otherwise killing her off would have been easy since she was the twist villain, just like they did with King Candy. Nah, you assume she shows no signs of remorse and never will just because they showed what they always want you to believe. Not to mention Lionheart still shows no concern or regard for why she did all this, thinking he can play the victim all he wants in only wanting to do the wrong thing for the RIGHT reason.
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And you shouldn’t have to. You should be allowed to form your own opinions. Just remember that they are your opinions, and that others aren’t always going to/shouldn’t have to agree with you.
The only reason I used Hitler as an example, is because his tactics are infamously known for being incredible simple yet super effective. Using fear and hatred to overpower logic and common sense in order to rise to power. But that’s pretty much where his and Bellwether’s similarities end.
While I do slightly agree with you there, you also have to keep in mind that not everyone is going to be so analytical. Don’t forget, that this movie is also intended for children to. They just needed a very basic reason that even kids could comprehend.
To be fair, it was the entire Candy Kingdom who acted that way. And at least King Candy tried to give a convincing reason as to why that was.
The problem is, not everybody is going to know who those characters are. That’s why people use general references, like Hitler, for comparisons.
People are always going to have different interpretations and opinions for different reasons. You just have to learn to accept that and move on. The best you can do is try to be respectful and patient.
I know you don’t condone Bellwether’s actions, but you can give the impression that you care more about her supposed motives rather than her actual choices. Valuing ambiguity over fact, and trying to excuse or justify her bad behaviour simply because you feel sorry for her.
Well, while King Candy may have started out as just a bad guy, he became a complete and utter monster (both figuratively and literally) after he was consumed/infected by that Cy-Bug. So his “death” was necessary/justified. Hans and Callaghan were essentially harmless after their exposure and defeat, similar to Bellwether. So while Disney tries to make its villains more likable, sympathetic and realistic, they’ve also realized that they can’t punish them as harshly as they use to.
You can SEE the look of bitterness and resentment during her arrest and imprisonment. And the reason why the creators did that, was because they didn’t want the audience to feel too sorry for her after being defeated and punished. It’s pretty poor writing if you make your villain too sympathetic. But just because she currently doesn’t show any remorse doesn’t mean she always will.
Lionheart isn’t playing the victim. He just doesn’t want to be seen as a villain like Bellwether (which he isn’t). He admitted that what he did was wrong, but that he wanted others to understand that he tried to do what he thought was the right thing. He may have kept things secret, but he was trying to prevent citizens from getting hurt and starting a panic. Which is the exact opposite of what Bellwether wanted.
Like I said, you seem to want to assume the worst about Lionheart despite his good intentions, while assuming the best about Bellwether despite her bad intentions. You can’t say which characters are good or bad simply because you like or don’t like them.
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Don't forget Lionheart kept the ZPD in the dark about the missing mammals case, knowing all along where they were and even worried their families to death without contacting them, thinking he can still come off as a hero that only wanted to do the right thing, and can do no wrong after that, enough for him to think it may bring back his position as mayor and go on pretending like his mistreatment with Bellwether and other coworkers never happened as long as the public doesn't know. I don't care about his good intentions because that still doesn't make him a good guy, as he still comes out as caring more for his reputation in this case. I don't usually care with what I see as there were so many things happening off screen during the aftermath of the conference meeting, bringing unanswered questions that we don't know how it was really happening at this rate. I don't care what you think of me about all this. I think what I want to, and it seems clearly Disney/Pixar never want us to feel any sympathy for any of their villains in the least, as if whatever story they give never mattered and are only there to be hated because someone had to be the "evil one" who wants money and power. Money and power? Is that all it is nowadays, no further deeper meaning than that? Come on! **** that! As if I'm that stupid not to notice the other small details between her and Lionheart. You think all I want to do is justify her behavior? I just want to believe that there is more to her side of the story than her coming off as underdeveloped with only one lousy overused answer involving money and power. This is just stupid, even stupid to try and force the audience to just think of her as being evil for the sake of it with no real explanation. Is this how all villains will be written from now on?
Believe whatever you want about Disney and non Disney villains, but just let others think what they want without always bringing up that stupid Hitler every time. That gets overrated and shallow when it comes to comparisons nowadays. Let others feel sympathy for Bellwether more than Lionheart all they want, and nobody has to change their mind about it either. I'm just saying I blame Lionheart more for what she did and the predators that viciously damaged her emotionally and physically long ago for what drove her to that. If they don't want me feeling sorry for her at all, maybe they should have made her unlikeable from the start. Seriously, they should have picked someone else to be the villain.
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Was it wrong for Lionheart to imprison those savage predators against their will? Yes, yes it was. But he was trying to prevent them or anyone else from getting hurt. Was it wrong for him not tell the victims’ loved ones or at least the police about what was going on? Yes, yes it was. The problem is, the more people that know about a secret, the more likely the chances are of it getting out. Lionheart wasn’t trying to be a hero. He was trying to resolve the problem before bringing it to the attention of the public, because if he did present it without a solution, it would cause a panic, which would result in putting even more citizens in danger. He was trying to be a good leader, a good mayor.
Then why was he so concerned about the public knowing about the savage predators, even after he was arrested? And why did he seem to be okay with being in jail, even though he knew his career was over?
“I don't care about his good intentions because that still doesn't make him a good guy”
He’s not perfect but, in relative terms, he’s still a good guy. He was trying to fix the situation while also trying to prevent it from becoming worse, even though he knew he was risking his job.
It seems to me that you’re more obsessed with the few bad things that he did, rather than the overall good he did or tried to do for Zootopia. Which could be because you’re bias due to your sympathy for Bellwether. You can’t say that Lionheart is a bad guy based on his treatment of Bellwether alone, so you focus on the few actual “bad” things he did. Which weren’t really all that bad, especially in comparison to Bellwether’s actions.
“I don’t usually care with what I see as there were so many things happening off screen”
So you’re admitting that you value ambiguity over facts?
“I don’t care what you think of me about all this.”
Then why do you seem to care so much about whether or not I agree with you?
“I think what I want to, and it seems clearly Disney/Pixar never want us to feel any sympathy for any of their villains in the least”
Disney and Pixar want their villains to be more sympathetic and relatable now more than ever. But not to the point that we can simply forgive them or condone their actions. These villains are meant to be cautionary tales about what we could easily become if we’re not careful. I mean, just look at the parallels between Judy and Bogo’s relationship to Bellwether and Lionheart’s.
“As if I'm that stupid not to notice the other small details between her and Lionheart.”
By “details” do you mean similarities or differences?
“I just want to believe that there is more to her side of the story than her coming off as underdeveloped with only one lousy overused answer involving money and power.”
You can believe whatever you want to believe about Bellwether’s past. But you can’t deny that at least part of, if not her main motivation was obviously based on power.
“This is just stupid, even stupid to try and force the audience to just think of her as being evil for the sake of it with no real explanation. Is this how all villains will be written from now on?”
But they do give her an explanation. It’s just an incredibly shallow and prejudicial one.
“Believe whatever you want about Disney and non Disney villains, but just let others think what they want without always bringing up that stupid Hitler every time.”
You say we should be allowed to have our own opinions, then dictate how we should express them.
“Let others feel sympathy for Bellwether more than Lionheart all they want, and nobody has to change their mind about it either.”
I never said that you had to sympathize more with Lionheart than Bellwether. Just that, based on what’s actually presented in the film, Bellwether is a worse character than Lionheart.
“I’m just saying I blame Lionheart more for what she did and the predators that viciously damaged her emotionally and physically long ago for what drove her to that.”
You’re basically saying that Bellwether shouldn’t be held accountable for her own action? Nobody made Bellwether do anything. It was her own choice and therefore her own fault.
“If they don't want me feeling sorry for her at all, maybe they should have made her unlikeable from the start. Seriously, they should have picked someone else to be the villain.”
They do want you to like and sympathize with her. Just not to the point where you can easily forgive or condone her actions. She is suppose to be first and foremost the antagonist of the story. And if they did make her unlikable from the start, it would ruin two things about the film. 1. It’s suppose to be mystery, and it wouldn’t be a very good mystery if you can automatically suspect or tell who the culprit is from the very beginning. 2. The main message throughout the entire story is about prejudice. What better evil villain to have than one that seems completely innocent and harmless?
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As I said before, I do not condone the actions of every villain I feel sympathy for on my list, I'm only saying I find them understandable on why it would drive them to do the things they do, even if they sometimes appear underdeveloped like Bellwether. Everything after the conference meeting just left a lot more unanswered questions than everything all cleared out. Just now I look back at Alice in Wonderland (2010) where at first Iracebeth (Red Queen or Queen of Hearts) seemed like nothing more than a ruling tyrant with not a care for anything other than power and control, because that is how they showed her and nothing more. That is until I saw "Alice Through the Looking Glass" and we find out more about her backstory, how her bitter rivalry with her sister Mirana started, how her head got swollen and large, and why she thinks nobody loves her. It wasn't just because of the tart incident, it was the start of it that lead to the enlargement of her head and people ridiculing her for that, the coronation was the last straw.
Then we see Randall Boggs the first time who we are lead to believe that he is just your average, everyday, rude, brash, arrogant, egotistical, cocky monster lizard guy who later craves to be at the top and wants to rule all of Monstropolis and kidnap all human children for money and power, as they want us to believe, when it is apparent that Waternoose is the real criminal mastermind and not a victim. Otherwise he could have stopped anytime, but was going to finish what was started, with or without Randall, which is something a true mastermind would say. The prequel shows that he didn't start out that way and we assume he was once a victim of bullying and prejudice himself and wanted nothing more than to be accepted for who he is, only to later end with the wrong crowd that would brainwash, use, and manipulate him with false hopes of reaching that top, only to be tossed out like yesterday's garbage.
No, I'm not saying Bellwether shouldn't be held accountable and take blame for her crimes. She does need to serve time for what she did and face the consequences of her actions. But if any prison staff were to just secretly let her get attacked and assaulted by other inmates, that is not going to help her or do any good for them, especially if therapy/psychology is required for inmates that suffer from depression, anxiety, mental disorders, and other disabilities. It would just remind her of everything that triggered her motives, Lionheart being one of them. I ain't that stupid and blind not to think that. Because all the others I felt sympathy before did need to be stopped and incarcerated for their own good to stop them from hurting others as well as hurting themselves. I've seen this in many episodes of Batman: The Animated Series. No matter who was running amuck causing chaos, they had to be stopped and incarcerated at Gotham Asylum, but there is always Batman standing afar wishing for them to someday be well again. But I'm also saying Lionheart should be held accountable just the same for leaving the ZPD in the dark about the missing mammals, worrying their families to death with no contact, and resulting to illegal methods, no matter how good his intentions were. The least he still could have done was contact those families and let them know why they are being contained instead of interfering with police work in keeping them in the dark about all that was happening. He also needs to show a real apology to Bellwether for all of his mistreatment and making her feel like she was never anything important to him and anyone just because she was a sheep secretary and not the assistant mayor. I honestly do not see Bellwether worse than Lionheart throughout half the film, otherwise it may give the idea that all NICE people are dangerous and deadly evil doers out for world domination at all costs. He totally mistreats her like a less important mammal and never for once has apologized for any of it, like it never happened, and thinks he can just carry on like none of that ever happened anytime. To hell with all this "everything she did was by her own intentions and nothing drove her to it" rubbish. Something just doesn't stand out right, and not everything is all her doing.
I replied because I thought I would make it clear that there are still so many unanswered questions that happened off screen for most people to make any final decisions on both Lionheart, Bellwether, and the entire scandal. I don't know why, it is a feeling I have, but perhaps maybe it was all a stupid mistake on my part. But why care if doesn't want to see her as a pure evil monster, wanting to know more about her motivation other than her being underdeveloped? I'm just sorry this argument started, but nobody is arrogant and stupid for wanting to understand her possible reasons that she hasn't told anyone yet. Or maybe I am just another silly, stupid, villain sympathizing fool who just can't accept what you call FACTS.
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No, but you do seem to want to overlook them. You haven’t actually once admitted that what Bellwether did was wrong or that it was her own fault. No, you just assume and see things that aren’t actually there.
Personally, I found the Red Queen’s redemption to be utterly ridiculous. You can’t just forgive a character who frivolously chops off people’s heads. The Red Queen was never originally suppose to be a sympathetic, let alone redeemable character. That’s just bad writing.
Except Randall seemed to be the one who came up with the whole idea and was in charge of the whole operation. And unlike Waternoose, he never showed any hints of reluctance or remorse. Randall was a dork who was accepted by the bullies and then decided to become a bully. Simple as that.
Stop trying to overanalyze everything, and stop trying to divert the conversation.
You literally just said that you blamed predators like Lionheart for Bellwether’s state of mind. And you have absolutely no proof that Bellwether was ever severely abused in any way.
“No, I'm not saying Bellwether shouldn't be held accountable and take blame for her crimes. She does need to serve time for what she did and face the consequences of her actions. But if any prison staff were to just secretly let her get attacked and assaulted by other inmates, that is not going to help her or do any good for them, especially if therapy/psychology is required for inmates that suffer from depression, anxiety, mental disorders, and other disabilities. It would just remind her of everything that triggered her motives, Lionheart being one of them.”
Again, you’re just making assumptions. We have no idea how the imprisonment system works in Zootopia. And Bellwether seemed to be perfectly fine during the concert scene at the end.
“I've seen this in many episodes of Batman: The Animated Series. No matter who was running amuck causing chaos, they had to be stopped and incarcerated at Gotham Asylum, but there is always Batman standing afar wishing for them to someday be well again.”
Yes, but villains in a television series actually have an opportunity to be explored. In a movie, sometimes a bad guy is just a bad guy. Not a character study.
“But I'm also saying Lionheart should be held accountable just the same for leaving the ZPD in the dark about the missing mammals, worrying their families to death with no contact, and resulting to illegal methods, no matter how good his intentions were. The least he still could have done was contact those families and let them know why they are being contained instead of interfering with police work in keeping them in the dark about all that was happening.”
But Lionheart is being held accountable for his actions. That’s why he’s in prison. And, like I already explained, he didn’t want to risk the secret getting out.
“He also needs to show a real apology to Bellwether for all of his mistreatment and making her feel like she was never anything important to him and anyone just because she was a sheep secretary and not the assistant mayor.”
You’re assuming that’s how Lionheart treated Bellwether all the time, and that he never felt bad or sorry for his treatment towards her. And you don’t know if he ever apologized to her.
“I honestly do not see Bellwether worse than Lionheart throughout half the film, otherwise it may give the idea that all NICE people are dangerous and deadly evil doers out for world domination at all costs. He totally mistreats her like a less important mammal and never for once has apologized for any of it, like it never happened, and thinks he can just carry on like none of that ever happened anytime.”
But isn’t that kind of the point of the story? Lionheart is big, loud, boastful and full of pride. It would be natural for us to assume and believe that he’s actually the bad guy. But the whole narrative and humor of the film comes from playing with our expectations.
“To hell with all this "everything she did was by her own intentions and nothing drove her to it" rubbish. Something just doesn't stand out right, and not everything is all her doing.”
Why not? Why is it so hard to believe that sometimes people simply make bad decisions because they want to? Not everyone has to have a sob story to justify their actions.
“I replied because I thought I would make it clear that there are still so many unanswered questions that happened off screen for most people to make any final decisions on both Lionheart, Bellwether, and the entire scandal.”
No, it seems that you replied to me because you’re trying to convince me see things your way. Which I can’t, because your way makes no logical sense.
“I don't know why, it is a feeling I have, but perhaps maybe it was all a stupid mistake on my part. But why care if doesn't want to see her as a pure evil monster, wanting to know more about her motivation other than her being underdeveloped?”
For the umpteenth time, I don’t see her as a “pure evil monster”. And I’m not saying that we she shouldn’t question or wonder about Bellwether’s motives or past. But that we should also accept the facts that are actually presented to us when judging her character.
“I'm just sorry this argument started, but nobody is arrogant and stupid for wanting to understand her possible reasons that she hasn't told anyone yet. Or maybe I am just another silly, stupid, villain sympathizing fool who just can't accept what you call FACTS.”
You’re not sorry that you started this argument. You’re only sorry that you lost it. I’ve used logic and common sense to debunk your so-called “facts” as the assumptions they are.
I never said that you were “arrogant”, “stupid”, “silly” or “foolish”. I said you were “stubborn”, “delusional”, “bias” and a “hypocrite”. Stop twisting my words around and making yourself look like the victim.
You’re the one who replied to ME in the first place. You started this fight, and now you have no one else but to blame than yourself.
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“I don't overlook anything at all when it comes to villain analyzing.”
No, but you do try emphasize the things that make them sympathetic, while downplaying the things that make actually make them villains.
“I know what I see and what I sense on the screen”
I don’t think you do. Considering that this is a film is suppose to be easy enough that even children can understand.
“I can tell the difference between a villain with no backup plan, no real other weapon that kills instantly, or doesn't waste time with a monologue instead of making a run for it, and a villain that plans everything out for more than a year, makes themselves known once placed in power and start their real reign of terror right away.”
No, you’re just making assumptions. You assume that because no one can prove those points wrong, that that makes your points right. Which, again, is valuing ambiguity over the presented facts.
“Honestly, they should have stuck with the original villain Mayor Swinton who I'm sure would have still been more diabolical herself if they kept her.”
The main problem (I think) with the original story, was that its social commentary was not only too dark, but also a little bit too blunt. Bellwether’s subtle villainous behaviour, suites the rest of the subtle prejudicial message of the finale version of the film.
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While I do agree that the whole “Twist Villain” thing from Disney is getting pretty old, I think it actually works best for Zootopia. 1. It’s a mystery, so it’s already suppose to be full of surprise anyways. 2. It’s a film about prejudice and most of its narrative and humor comes from playing with our expectations. 3. It gives us a fairly convincing “Red Herring” villain with Lionheart.
Did you ever stop to consider that maybe the creators developed Bellwether as a villain first, and then made her character more likable and sympathetic and therefore more misleading? That they simply took Mayor Swinton’s evil, intelligent and manipulate personality, and then gave her a nicer one with a more adorable design?
You haven’t “proven” anything. That’s the whole point. You have no actually evidence to support opinions, which you try to pass off as facts.
But you don’t know. You interpret and assume, but you don’t actually know. “Knowing” means to have knowledge about something. And knowledge is based on facts.
Responding in 3, 2, 1…
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Yeah, but most of what you said was either just ambiguous or simply not true.
I think you missed the point that I was trying to make. You seem to think that the creators created Bellwether’s character first, and then decided to make her the villain for no real reason. What I was suggesting, was that maybe they had intended to make her the villain all along. Even before Bellwether was actually “Bellwether”.
You keep saying that, yet you keep responding.
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Good riddance, you Nazi sympathizer.
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Nazi sympathizer? Do you even know what a Nazi is? I didn't think so. You make me laugh rabid villain hater!
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Yes it doesn't justify what she did, but then it wouldn't solve anything by hating her in the end, considering that it would be prejudice and discrimination all over again. I feel that the story came to an abrupt end without giving us a background on Bellwether's motives and why she did what she did. I just hope the sequel gives us that closure and that Nick and Judy are the ones connecting with her and that that she redeems herself.
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I wouldn’t say that exactly. Prejudice literally means to “pre judge” someone. To assume things about an individual based on a select group. But we know Bellwether, what she did, and why she did it. She commit a crime, was convicted, and punished as an individual.
I’m not so sure about her being redeemable. Like I said, she tried to turn the entire city on itself. And with all the chaos caused and the attacks themselves, someone could have gotten hurt or even killed. Remember, she set a jaguar on them and almost made Nick KILL Judy. That’s pretty messed up.
But it would be interesting to see her in the sequel nonetheless. Maybe even assisting Nick and Judy with a case. A sort of “Hannibal Lecter” like role (no joke intended).
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Yeah I know what she did, but you have to remember, it was prejudice itself that turned her into doing all of that. Maybe she went through something even worse than Nick and Judy. Besides, focusing on her past, connecting with Nick and Judy, helping them since a case and redeeming herself in the progress could be big.
I also think that her actions could result in another form of discrimination involving the sheep community being ostracized. People will believe that they're just faking their innocence and sweetness the same way as Bellwether and her henchmen did. Everyone from little kids to the senior citizens will be discriminated.
This could set up a decent plot for a sequel and get Judy and Nick to connect with Dawn and why she did all of that. Her being harassed and abused by Lionheart for doing all the hard work in the office is really sad and unfair you know. I feel like we do deserve to see her backstory as we did with Judy and Nick.
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I wouldn’t say “it was prejudice that made her do”. People have to be held accountable for their actions. Bellwether knew what she was doing, she knew the consequences, and she probably knew it was wrong to. A bad experience may explain why she did it, but it doesn’t justify or excuse her from the choices she made. That’s the whole difference between Nick and Judy to. Nick chose to let his bad experience change him, and Judy chose to overcome hers.
I wouldn’t go as far as to say that sheep will be discriminated against because of Bellwether. Although it would be interesting to learn and understand more about her.
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I'm not trying to justify her actions or anything, but the extent of how far she was going with her plans might not have been all figured out. This may give the sheep folk a bad outlook due to what she and the rest of her ram thugs did though. And it would make sense to perceive of them that way considering that is how Muslims are wrongfully accused of the atrocities committed a ghost group known as ISIS.
Nick too made a bad choice in his life 20 years before he became a cop. Gideon changed over time, so why not her?
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I don’t know, she seemed to have everything planned and figured out up until that last confrontation with Nick and Judy. While there may be a slight backlash, this is the Zootopia world we’re talking about. Despite having prejudice, stereotypes and speciesism they’re still a lot better off than we are. The whole moral of the movie was about not judging others based on what they were. How is everyone discriminating against sheep any better than Bellwether trying to get the prey animals to turn on the predators?
Nick may have done some ethically ambiguous things in his past, but nothing as personal, serious, or dangerous compared to what Bellwether almost did. Nick was a con-artist, not a criminal mastermind. Gideon was a childhood bully who simply grew up and out of that phase.
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