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AtheistsClub — Stupid Fish
Published: 2006-10-03 17:15:28 +0000 UTC; Views: 3103; Favourites: 35; Downloads: 47
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UPDATE:A visitor to AtheistsClub named mathewsleep brought up a good point and I thought I’d add my reply here, in the description of this deviation. He felt that the “Stupid Fish” deviation was inherently belittling.
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My Reply:
I agree mathewsleep, we can certainly voice our beliefs without belittling others. Keep in mind that this is art though--and in this particular case the point was to voice the frustration of living in a society where a two thousand year old mythology still has so much sway. The “Stupid Fish” deviation is itself a case in point--the artist asked that it be posted anonymously for fear of reprisal.
I’m not sure if it’s a wise policy for the AtheistsClub to accept anonymous submissions--I’d certainly rather see people stand up publicly--but for now we’re willing to do so.
What’s your opinion?
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I’d welcome more comments from people on this issue. I think it deals with a critical point that atheist artists face: the tension between public expression of personal feelings and the respect for one another we should all share.
- Charles
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Comments: 102
I think we should continue to accept anonymous submissions. Sure, it's nice when someone stands up and says "This is what I believe", but not everyone is in a situation where that's preferable or practical. Imagine, for example, if a contributor's parents, friends, or spouse didn't yet know or approve of the contributor's belief system.
Pushing people "out of the closet" is good for the movement, but we must recognize that it can be bad for individuals within the movement. Choosing the selfless road should be a choice, not a requirement.
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I think it's stupid that Christians wear crosses. Cos Jesus just SO WANTS to be 'that guy that got nailed to a cross', im sure... Why can't they wear something that sybolises theyre religion without being so morbid and cruel? The fish is one such symbol but i dont really know why they use it either, what does it symbolise?
I hope I dont sound like I think Christians are stupid, because theyre not. It takes a lot of willpower to have faith in something that you will never have proof of until you die. And SOMEONE had to have wrote that book, and its still a best-seller 2000 years on. So theyre really pretty intelligent...
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I know this is sooooo old, so forgive me for answering, but... it's an ancient pun. You see, the Greek word for 'fish,' Icyhtus (which is the technical names of the Jesus-fish, the Ichythus) is used as an anagram for the Greek sentance Iesu Cristi-some other Greek stuff I can't remember. The phrase means 'Jesus Christ is Lord," more or less. It was kind of an ancient joke.
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Thanks 
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Silly on top of silly:
Here in Japan, crosses are sold and worn purely as decoration, without any religious meaning attached.
I'm afraid the ignorance of Christian symbolism here in Japan leads to a lot of abuse-- for example, in the "Daily Yamazaki" convenience stores, every cash register has a pseudo-charity donation box next to it. The pseudo-charity boxes are shaped like loaves of bread with the Jesus-fish on top, and photos saying "for the aid of people in war-torn Iraq"-- but the "charity" involved is actually a religious group whose idea of "aid" is to CONVERT Iraqis to Christianity and spread their ultra-fundamentalist views worldwide. The Japanese don't realize that they're contributing to a religious movement. :-/
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I guess they would never dare put the same collection boxes in britain, because someone would figure it out. What religion do the japanese have? ive wondered that before, and figured since they were so happy perhaps they didnt have one..
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I totally understand you when you say you "just don't want to be a part of this planet". I've been hunting around for a country to live in that actually lives up to my ideals of democracy, heavily restrained capitalism, freedom, objectivity, and not attacking every other country to steal their oil, change their religion, find new markets for Coca Cola, and/or inflate domestic military spending.
I'm thinking... maybe New Zealand? A friend thinks maybe the Dominican Republic might be a good choice. Where do YOU think might be a decent place to live?
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well on the grand scale of things Here in scotland aint too bad, apart from the fact that half our laws and whatnot are still under tony bliars rulings... although new zealand may have better weather! i dont really know to be honest, in recent times I think france has done quite well at sticking up for the beliefs of the people (eg. not going into iraq) but theyre still quite likely to revert..
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Well, in Japan, less than 1% of the population believes in Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
Officially, most people are atheists, agnostics, or believe in some combination of Buddhism and Shinto.
There are two BIG differences between religion in Japan and religion in America/Europe:
1) Japanese do NOT try to convert. Evangelism is rarely seen, and socially VERY awkward. (Nevertheless, we DO see Mormons come over here dressed like the Blues Brother and trying to sell their religion on streetcorners. For Japanese that's impossibly rude-- but Japanese rarely say "no" directly, so the Mormons may persist out of pure ignorance and bloodymindedness, without realising that their evangelism is extremely unwelcome. Also, some Japanese may see it as a free opportunity to practice their English. :/ )
2) In Japan religion is a personal choice, and more like "ala carte" than a "set menu". By that, I mean that most people believe in a little of this and a little of that, without feeling obligated to pigeonhole themselves by saying "I believe every word of this branch of the church" or even identifying themselves with a single religion.
Also, except at religioius holidays (much like Easter, Halloween and Christmas) where there's a big show or fun customs, most folks aren't "practicing". Sundays, one doesn't see folks flocking to temples. In fact, most "religious" holidays contain almost no religious feeling-- we celebrate Valentine's day and Christmas simply because the stores push'em, and celebrate New Year's, Japan's Halloween, and other Shinto/Chinese/Buddhist relgious holidays mostly out of a sense of tradition and fun-for-kids.
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That makes me want to move to Japan. It really does.
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heh, I once saw the precentage of christanity in Japan be called "a travisty" (or shame) I think it is good, and amusing.
wasn't there a painting with a sad Jesus morning over abandoned umbrellas in a bus? reminding people not to leave their stuff on the bus? I thought read that on the internet.
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Hmmm. Interesting that you should pick "leaving umbrellas behind". The Japanese actually have a section in many bus and train stations, called "love umbrellas". It's where left-behind umbrellas are kept. When it rains and people are without an umbrella, they simply borrow an umbrella and bring it back later.
Nice, eh?
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wow, and here we just have "give a penny take a penny" (or higher coins) and that game where you hike with a GPS and cram small 'tressures" in trees or under rocks and let others find "x marks the spot" and leave their own thing to trade with you. (is like a game)
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The name of that "game" is "geocaching". [link]
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I forgot the name. I've been forgeting things latly.
It sounds fun, like a tressure hunt and old fashioned barder trading.
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"vegan zombie"-- that's damned funny. Is it original, or a quote from somewhere?
re: geocaching: I only know of it because a friend of mine runs a regional geocaching website. While reading the Wikipedia entry on Geocaching, I was surprised at how many similar activities there are-- "letterboxing", leaving books for others to find, "travel bugs", and so on.
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its a play on words, it rhymns with brains, then one day a comic called "f minus" had the same joke in it.
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sounds pretty cool really
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Easygoign about religion, yes-- but it would be a grave mistake to imagine that the Japanese extend that carefree style to the rest of their lives. Japanese workers are infamous for being stressed out, subservient to the boss, and willing to work free voluntary overtime 'til after the subways and buses have shut down for the evening. For comparison's sake, note that in English we say "the squeaky wheel gets the grease" and reward striving for personal gain, while in Japan it's the opposite-- "beat down the nail that sticks up above the rest", and sacrifice yourself for the good of the team.
It makes for a very un-enviable workplace atmosphere.
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>.< yikes. well everywhere is different... I guess the japanese at least put something a little more tangible into focus!
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Linky-thing: [link][link] 
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Dang... how do I make this URL show up properly?
[link][link]
I wish I could edit old posts.
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If you stil haven't found out it's:
< a href="http://enter web address here" >text< /a >
but without the spaces. [[but leave the space between a and href though]]
like so:
7
Hope that makes sense//helps.
Oh, and lovely discussion, I enjoyed reading it.
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It takes no willpower at all to follow the teachings of one's parents and community elders. Most people simply (lazily) waft along with the crowd, adopting the world-view (a.k.a. religion) that's most prevalent around them, without rigorous testing and real questioning with doubt, humility, and a pair of really hot pointy sticks. 👍: 0 ⏩: 1
The majority of
The only religious people I have any respect for are the ones who seem sane yet claim to have had a true personal revelation-- but then, I don't see how they can reconcile that with the similar experiences of people in all those conflicting religions, with equally old "books filled with truth and good news (tm)".
Let's not give credit for "willpower" where it's not due.
I guess you're right, but the Christians in my school were teased and stuff because of, basically, going to church. They could have pretended not to be christian, but they didnt, and they at least were strong about it. Maybe willpower isn't the right word... I do know that in different communities it would be the other way around, but in my experience religious people (mostly the C's I must admit I don't live in a hugely varied community) get a lot of flack and I respect them for sticking to their theories, even when they have no proof. and they know they have no proof... but they still have faith.
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Errrr... why do you respect them for clinging to their theories? OK, so enduring ridicule is cool-- but only if one's theory is supported by the facts. If one clings to a theory DESPITE heavy evidence to the contract, that's less like noble actions and more like reprehensible bloodymindedness, is it not?
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haha, maybe I am only defending them because they were nice people 
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Hmmm. Someone who's been converted might have a) seen some sort of religious miracle/revelation himself-- which is at least SOME kind of evidence, or b) been converted merely by peer pressure or other non-proof persuasion. I saw a lot of the latter in Papua New Guinea-- Cs were converting locals simply by volume, parties, access to English lessons, and other things that had NOTHING to do with truth or proof.
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it's pretty commonplace, though. Even "humanitarian aid" in disaster areas is occasionally tied to religious conversion. Imagine an "aid" organization coming to your country and insisting that if you want a bag of rice while you're starving, you've got to convert to their religion.
Linky-thing: [link]
[i]"many Hindus fear that World Vision will also use this as an opportunity to convert the locals to Christianity. Other evangelist groups have often conditioned aid packages on conversion to Christianity and have denied aid to those who refuse."[/i]
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Jesus was known as a "fisher of men". The fish symbol itself was used early on in Christianity as a private symbol believers could use to identify themselves to one another.
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ahh ok. so it was like a 'secret society'. I think i prefer nudge-wink-tickly-palm-handshake.
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It's also known as the "Jesus Fish". [link]
From the Wikipedia article:
"Prior to Christian belief, the ichthys (a.k.a. jesus fish) was used worldwide as a symbol of the pagan "Great Mother Goddess." It was meant to represent the outline of her vulva. It is linked to the Age of Pisces and also has associations with the Hindu deity Vishnu, but more so with Dagon the fish-god of the Philistines. (The name Dagon is derived from "dag" which means fish.) There have also been discoveries of the fish-god in sculptures found in Nineveh Assyria. Dagon is also found in the Scriptures (Judges 16:23-24; 1 Samuel 5:2-5). In both instances, it was the transcendent, invisible God that defeated the idols. This being a common symbol in the ancient world, it could be used by secret societies without fear of persecution."
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interesting 
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It's also interesting to see how early Judaism and Christianity developed (and borrowed heavily from other religions of the time). For example, how early Christianity was heavily modified in order to appeal to the Roman government-- changing the "holy trinity" from "father, son, MOTHER" to "father, son, holy ghost".
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well, you know, pfft, what are us women worth anyway? we cant go to war!
one of my pet hates is people who say "your religion is wrong, follow mine" or make jokes along those lines or whatever. >.< They all come from the same place! all religion comes from man! we invented it all! it doesnt matter which race thought of one first or whether theyre gods could kick someone elses gods ass... none of them are better than any other because they were all made by good old fallible weak and insignificant men who were so afraid of the world and science and how stuff worked that they hid behind books, and made fairy tales to answer questions that they didnt understand. Every religion is basically the same, so why are we now destroying so many lives and huge areas of the world because of a few slight differences? >.< argh! stupid!
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True, true.... There're also the people who pretend to be selling "world peace" -- but think that the secret is to convert everyone to a single religion. That's like making a room quiet by killing everyone in it.
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exactly! I totally agree. and I wish these people behind me would shut up.... XD
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Personally, I like the Darwin fish, but the stupid fish is pretty cool.
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The Darwin fish is definitely my favorite.
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Im an athiest (sometimes a little agnostic) and i don't really like this.
I just have a gut feeling that this is just as bad as a Christian saying an Athiest is stupid for not believing in God.
It makes me feel uncomfortable... because i have always hated being put down or belittled for my own beliefs, i would hate for someone else to go through that, regardless of them being religious or not.
Anyway, those are my thoughts.
And in responce to khayraB, although certain religions don't make cool posters saying athiests are dumb... non believers have copped a fair bit of crap over the years!
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Thanks for your thoughts, scrumdiddly-umptious. (Love that screen name by-the-way). The "Stupid-Fish" has certainly drawn a lot of attention, both here in the comments and in some notes.
Many people are saying that while they might agree with the sentiment, they don't agree with the tone--they wouldn't actually stick one of these on their cars. There are exceptions of course, in both directions, but that seems to be the most common response.
I'm of the same basic mind. I don't go around telling people they are stupid because of their beliefs. I don't think its true nor that it would help to tell them so. But I have definitely had days where I just wanted to bang my head against the wall. With everything from Jihad bombers to Intelligent Design preachers out there, its hard to keep one's energies headed in productive directions and not just start smackin' people upside da head.
No one ever said it would be easy being an atheist.
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Yes thats very true, it can be maddening and frustrating to see people doing horrible things to each other and justifying it with religion. Still, i think the people and thier intolerance are the problem, not the religion. Most religious people aren't complete morons, i wouldn't like them to think of athiests as being intolerant.
Anyway, thanks for letting me voice my opinions!
All the best
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"I think it deals with a critical point that atheist artists face: the tension between public expression of personal feelings and the respect for one another we should all share."
Unfortunately it's not just atheists who have to deal with that. It's funny that athiests do it, though, because I have never in my whole entire life have seen a piece bashing athiests. Why? No religion really has anything on athiests. Noone can really make cool posters depicting the stupidity of the "unbelievers" without it looking somewhat stupid. That's my opinon, though.
So it's such a shame someone had to stoop down to such a level to say what's known. All it does is gets people mad hateful towards EVERYONE not included in their religion.
If one is willing to think about Christianity and come to the logical conclusion that it's not all that and a bag of chips, I'd hope they'd be able to think it's not worth the reaction this deviation could cause.
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I've seen books, posters, and paintings bashing Athiests-- well, bashing Darwinism, anyway. On Thursday Island in Australia, I even found a whole shop devoted to Creationism / ridiculing Darwinism and Atheism.
As a lesson to myself in keeping an objective open mind and reducing my own arrogance, I bought two copies of the poster-painting that ridiculed Evolution, and keep one copy hanging on my wall at home. I'd upload a copy, but I'm sure that'd violate copyright-- and encourage the creationists.
(I'm an Agnostic, leaning heavily toward Atheism. Like a rabbit hunter in a forest, though, I don't believe that NOT seeing rabbits is positive proof that there ARE no rabbits, so I keep a little bit of Agnostic doubt rather than going full-throttle Atheist.)
The art's out there-- there's no shortage of artists to follow virtually ANY philosophy or religion, even "spoof" religions like Last Thursdayism, Pastafarianism, and Invisible Pink Unicornism.
Some links to anti-atheist and anti-evolution art:
[link]
[link]
[link]
and especially [link]
from this site that shows art ridiculing any and all politics and religions, one by one.
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I saw someone have that fish eating the Darwin amphibian on the back of a dirty rig and I really wanted to jump out of the car and draw a shark labeled "Facts" eating the fish in the dirt.
Thankfully I haven't seen many people have that stuff, but then again I could be just too over-optimistic.
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P.S. [link]
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