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Published: 2008-11-12 16:56:34 +0000 UTC; Views: 9360; Favourites: 20; Downloads: 356
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Description
One of many Catholic interrogations I have.Artwork by
IMPORTANT EDIT:
I confess I originally thought this was potentially a real fail on behalf of Catholics, but since then, so many of them have come forward and explained to me why it wasn't fail, that I can't really go on and not acknowledge that I've been educated on that subject.
This is one thing I really like about Catholics: they have all been polite and informative, and they certainly seem to know their stuff, and not superficially so.
Thus, the real fail is mine. Mea culpa. And a great thank you to everyone who took the time to teach me about this particular topic. Thank you!
PS: I considered taking down this deviation, but I think it can still be funny even when you know the true stuff behind it; also, it may educate others about this question as it educated me, so I wouldn't want to prevent that opportunity; and also, I wouldn't want to remove all those Catholic comments I have received.
EXPLANATION:
"Many Protestants claim that when Catholics address priests as "father," they are engaging in an unbiblical practice that Jesus forbade: "Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven" (Matt. 23:9).
In his tract 10 Reasons Why I Am Not a Roman Catholic, Fundamentalist anti-Catholic writer Donald Maconaghie quotes this passage as support for his charge that "the papacy is a hoax."
Bill Jackson, another Fundamentalist who runs a full-time anti-Catholic organization, says in his book Christian’s Guide To Roman Catholicism that a "study of Matthew 23:9 reveals that Jesus was talking about being called father as a title of religious superiority . . . [which is] the basis for the [Catholic] hierarchy" (53).
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"To understand why the charge does not work, one must first understand the use of the word "father" in reference to our earthly fathers. No one would deny a little girl the opportunity to tell someone that she loves her father. Common sense tells us that Jesus wasn’t forbidding this type of use of the word "father."
In fact, to forbid it would rob the address "Father" of its meaning when applied to God, for there would no longer be any earthly counterpart for the analogy of divine Fatherhood. The concept of God’s role as Father would be meaningless if we obliterated the concept of earthly fatherhood. "
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"Some Fundamentalists argue that this usage changed with the New Testament—that while it may have been permissible to call certain men "father" in the Old Testament, since the time of Christ, it’s no longer allowed. This argument fails for several reasons.
First, as we’ve seen, the imperative "call no man father" does not apply to one’s biological father. It also doesn’t exclude calling one’s ancestors "father," as is shown in Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of "our father Isaac."
Second, there are numerous examples in the New Testament of the term "father" being used as a form of address and reference, even for men who are not biologically related to the speaker. There are, in fact, so many uses of "father" in the New Testament, that the Fundamentalist interpretation of Matthew 23 (and the objection to Catholics calling priests "father") must be wrong, as we shall see.
Third, a careful examination of the context of Matthew 23 shows that Jesus didn’t intend for his words here to be understood literally. The whole passage reads, "But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called ‘masters,’ for you have one master, the Christ" (Matt. 23:8–10)."
Source: [link]
Thanks to for this!
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Comments: 179
Matholwch [2015-02-09 08:09:00 +0000 UTC]
Thank you for your understanding. Some of us can get frustrated at how prejudiced other folks get, especially with so much hearsay and such, so it is really a God-send to see people like yourself.
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ForgetfulRainn In reply to Matholwch [2015-02-27 21:43:36 +0000 UTC]
Since then, I've pretty much become a Catholic myself. I read the whole Catechism of the Catholic Church and I identify as a Catholic even though I haven't yet gone through the official stuff (was baptised as a baby though).
Thank you for the kind words!
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MrAlexo333 In reply to ForgetfulRainn [2015-06-04 03:55:33 +0000 UTC]
That is awesome. Although I don't know you, I feel proud of you
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alevegaliolios [2013-11-26 17:32:00 +0000 UTC]
Such openmindedness, such humility...
Francis would be proud
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Chiltikcoatl [2013-08-21 07:07:51 +0000 UTC]
On a side note... what about the "father" that is well, the male parent?
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ForgetfulRainn In reply to Chiltikcoatl [2013-08-21 15:01:55 +0000 UTC]
Here's my take on Christ's words here: it's an exaggeration meant to carry a point, and the point is that our only true father is God, your own father's true father is God too, etc. I don't think Christ said that with literal meaning. We know Christ used metaphors a lot, and, generally, when he says something that isn't one, he warns "verily, verily," before, so his disciples know to take it literally.
I'd of course not stop calling my father "father" or "dad" or anything. It's poetic, it insists on the importance of having this perspective.
I hope that answered your question.
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ForgetfulRainn In reply to ninjatakes321 [2013-02-17 20:11:43 +0000 UTC]
Often. I was baptised Catholicm but made Protestant through my mother's marriage.
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ninjatakes321 In reply to ForgetfulRainn [2013-02-17 20:50:42 +0000 UTC]
Ha, sorry then, I only think of converting aithiests, we all celebrate the same god, we just have different views on him
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ForgetfulRainn In reply to ninjatakes321 [2013-02-23 20:17:20 +0000 UTC]
No problem; I feel like I need daily conversion anyway.
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ninjatakes321 In reply to ForgetfulRainn [2013-02-23 20:22:07 +0000 UTC]
That's what outside is for TwT gives you an excuse to photograph things
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ninjatakes321 In reply to ForgetfulRainn [2013-02-17 20:51:10 +0000 UTC]
Its the mouth of : D mixed with v_v
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TillShilohComes [2012-09-13 01:48:19 +0000 UTC]
Matt.23:9, means do not call any man on earth your 'Father' as, in God the Father. Fathers can be ancestors, our own earthly fathers, elders, etc, but no man can be compared as to be God the Father. Even Jesus told us to pray to Our Father, not Jesus Himself. The main point is, only God can condemn, and He tells us what is right & what is sinful, it is up to us (individuals), to know God's Word, and follow it faithfully.
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ForgetfulRainn In reply to TillShilohComes [2012-09-15 16:17:38 +0000 UTC]
I'm aware of that, see the description. I only keep this piece up as it may teach some people a thing or two, provided they read the description.
No offense meant to you or Christianity. I'd take the piece down if it was meant literally.
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DortAmKlavier [2011-12-30 05:26:49 +0000 UTC]
One of the most pointed New Testament reference to the theology of the spiritual fatherhood of priests is Paul's statement, "I do not write this to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children. For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (1 Cor. 4:14-15).
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Jewl242 [2011-12-30 05:24:40 +0000 UTC]
I am so glade that others have shown up before I, and have explsand thing so well! and that you were so kind to listen! My mother's Family is Baptist, while my Father's is Catholic. So I was exsplosed to both sides! (A vary confusing Childhood at times...) I chose The Catholic Church with out the help of my (Earthly) Father, who grow up in a "Catholic Buble". Becose of this, my mother's family is (for the most part) convinced I am not saved and going to Hell. Something I do not belive of them... :\
There is an answer for every question... You only have to ask, and be willing to hear it! (Which I know, can be harder in some cases...)
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fearfighter2 [2011-12-06 21:23:13 +0000 UTC]
and all these contradictions are why i hate the bible
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cupcakebunny15 In reply to fearfighter2 [2012-06-13 10:41:47 +0000 UTC]
these are quotes from men, not God. except for jesus. It's a historical record. not everyone in the bible said all the right things. Just like two people on the same side of an argument may have conflicting ideas. But I take Jesus's word on things instead of a quote from a follower
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fearfighter2 In reply to cupcakebunny15 [2012-06-15 01:09:15 +0000 UTC]
its hard to know what Jesus said and did
hard to separate fact from fiction
??
Have you ever read "The Good Man Jesus and The Scoundrel Christ"??
book makes a good point
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Loigi [2011-11-13 15:23:44 +0000 UTC]
I'm happy we were able to communicate and thank you for having an open mind and heart to even listen to us.
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ForgetfulRainn In reply to Loigi [2011-11-14 18:38:34 +0000 UTC]
No problem, I'm probably more on your side than any other's right now.
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ForgetfulRainn In reply to Loigi [2011-11-17 17:19:39 +0000 UTC]
I would say so too, just sometimes I despair that this way leads anywhere.
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splitApear [2011-05-01 23:51:54 +0000 UTC]
So glad to hear your viewpoint has changed with a better education/explanation of the Faith. God bless!
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osiixy [2011-04-18 15:27:08 +0000 UTC]
Poor daddy I have to say him: "I will never call you my father anymore"
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osiixy [2011-04-18 15:27:08 +0000 UTC]
Poor daddy I have to say him: "I will never call you my father anymore"
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Circles776 [2011-04-14 05:14:40 +0000 UTC]
If you knew the context in which Jesus was speaking you would know that this picture and inference by you IS A FAIL!
Its called HYPERBOLE a hebrew thing that Jesus used alot i.e. (PLUCK YOUR EYE OUT)
w/ your inference you shouldnt call your biological father "father" or your school teacher "teacher"
And if you knew at the Catholic CHRISTIAN church (the OTC btw) the wor for father isnt used in place of Our father in heaven but as a point to the one father. ALSO PAUL IS CALLED FATHER IN THE BIBLE AND CALLS PPL HIS SPIRITUAL SONS! (2 Tim. 1:2).
(1 Tim. 1:2);
[link]
plz dont slip into bigotry!
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ForgetfulRainn In reply to Circles776 [2011-04-15 16:08:19 +0000 UTC]
Well, if you had read the description, you would know I am well aware of all of this.
I, for one, know that Christ spoke often in metaphors, and to be literal-minded to the words of Christ is most often to be mistaken.
I decided not to remove the image because it occasionally teaches a thing or two to people, of either opinion, but only when they read the description. Hope you're not too offended.
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CrashQueen [2011-03-10 02:47:00 +0000 UTC]
lol your not alone on this one ^0^ im catholic myself and when i was little i didnt understand either I had to get my Sunday school teacher to explain it to me (try telling that to a 5 year old)
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ForgetfulRainn In reply to TarkanAtilla22 [2011-02-08 19:01:49 +0000 UTC]
I never called my father "father" anyway, just "dad". More seriously, this is not to be taken literally; it just means that you only have one father of God's level and that's God Himself. That's all. Don't take it literally.
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TarkanAtilla22 In reply to ForgetfulRainn [2011-02-11 10:25:58 +0000 UTC]
Oh. (That's fairly understandable.)
But then I don't understand. Catholic priests are not on the same level as God Almighty. Even the Pope is below God and the Angels. We don't believe the priest is any kind of Father to compare to God, any more than a Protestant would consider his pastor to be.
But Catholic priests are conduits - tangible, human connections - to the Father. And while they are not perfect, oneself likes to think they are more efficient and accurate in leading people to God and His thoughts and ways than a common man like you or me - no offense intended. But that's just my thinking on it, not an educated teaching.
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cupcakebunny15 In reply to TarkanAtilla22 [2012-06-13 10:49:11 +0000 UTC]
they are not holier that you at all. They needed to be saved just like you. yes, they are good leaders for churches and good at leading people to Christ and they are well versed in scripture, but they are human. They should not be elevated to a connection to god. We have Jesus for that, the bible says he is our only mediator. God/Jesus hears all our pleas and confessions.
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TarkanAtilla22 In reply to cupcakebunny15 [2012-06-17 22:02:40 +0000 UTC]
However, St. Paul also writes:
1 Tim 2:1-4 -
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
In other words, our prayers - and our confessions - are not to replace Christ's mediation. Far from it! We are to guid each other to Christ's sole mediation! We must help each other to Christ, and to Heaven! Why do you think Christ left us in the hands of each other? To bump off of each other and be stumbling blocks? Come on. He intended we should help each other.
And priests help us to become closer to Jesus in special ways. Priests do not replace God and are not equal to God. But they are God's tools. God operates through them as a surgeon operates with a knife. Priests are not there to lead you away from God. Quite the opposite. The priest wishes to share with you the powers Christ gave to him through His first Apostles.
As John writes:
John 20:21-23 -
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”
By breathing on the Apostles, as God breathed life into Adam (the only other time God breathed a Spirit into man), so Christ breathed His life into the Apostles and gave them powers they had not had before - to forgive others' sins.
Remember how Christ forgave sins. He did not privately whisper to others that their sins were forgiven. Often He spoke right in earshot of the Pharisees, who criticised His ability to forgive sins.
He let them know they were forgiven. So does the priest when he forgives our sins, in the Spirit Christ gave him.
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cupcakebunny15 In reply to TarkanAtilla22 [2012-06-18 13:40:23 +0000 UTC]
But it isn't the priest's right to make the followers confess. God only gave that power to the disciples, they were a special case, they were chosen by him. Priests are chosen by men and can be twisted horrible people sometimes, the world saw that in the cases of sexual abuse in some churches. Most aren't, but still. Some preachers tell their congregation to murder gay people or bomb abortion clinics. It is good to confide in your preacher, but it is not his place to demand to hear your sins, only Jesus can forgive our sins, that's why he died. If priests can forgive everyone then why did Jesus die?
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