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enmarwen In reply to doaler4 [2011-12-21 13:10:12 +0000 UTC]

Don't worry, heaven doesn't exist. Worry about making this life awesome!

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righteouswolf In reply to enmarwen [2012-11-08 11:24:17 +0000 UTC]

Why do you say that? Heaven does exist. Just because you can't see something doesn't mean its not there.

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enmarwen In reply to righteouswolf [2012-11-08 14:31:41 +0000 UTC]

I know perfectly well that things I can't see can still exist, I can't see an atom, but I know it exists because it can be measured and proven to exist. Heaven? No evidence. Gods? Same thing. There is no evidence that points to the existence of any deity.

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righteouswolf In reply to enmarwen [2012-11-08 22:51:01 +0000 UTC]

How do you explain the design of things such as a giraffe and an egg which cannot in any way come from evolution? How do you explain the extraordinarily delicate balance of the entire cosmos where even a slight change anywhere means that life is impossible. More faith is required to believe that all this just exploded into existence from dust than to believe an intelligent designer created and fine tuned the universe to the perfect setting.

And let me ask you a question. How big is the universe?

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enmarwen In reply to righteouswolf [2012-11-08 23:41:10 +0000 UTC]

Are you kidding? Both of those are perfectly explainable by evolution, and frankly those are incredibly weak examples to try to disprove evolution. Try the Bombardier beetle. But even that has several possible evolutionary paths anyway, so I guess just don't bother. If evolution is impossible and a god did it, he did a pisspoor job, even just on us humans, not to mention on all organisms. How about them appendixes, right? Those are so useful and not prone to exploding with bacteria and killing us. And wisdom teeth, ooh those are great too. But if you'd subscribe to the real world, you'd realise those are just leftovers from our evolutionary ancestors. There's no "extraordinarily delicate balance of the entire cosmos" there's barely a delicate balance of our own solar system, we have quite a range where life is sustainable in the solar system and there are probably many other places in the universe where life can be sustained, we just don't know about it yet, or it hasn't happened. There was no "explosion of dust" that formed the universe, it was a quantum event which is clearly beyond your simple understanding of the universe. Just because you're too willingly ignorant to bother actually learning how we came to be here doesn't mean that a deity is the answer.

People like you make me sad.

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righteouswolf In reply to enmarwen [2012-11-09 03:26:01 +0000 UTC]

The process of evolution cannot use results of "failed" attempts and apply them to future generation. It is about progressive improvement, but there are features in animals that cannot be useful unless they are fully formed. If an animal has a feature that is incomplete and therefore useless, then evolution will eliminate it. If this is the case then there would be no possible way that bacteria could evolve into human in any span of time given because it would require the organism to gain feature that are useless in order to build a complex system that is useful. It's like a machine. It has to have all the parts in order to work. A designer would have a plan for it and keep building it until the machine worked but since evolution is an unguided and unplanned process it won't build on anything that isn't useful at the moment so how are more complex system supposed to come into being?

In answer to your 'useless parts' comment let me ask you this. Why hasn't evolutionary processes eliminated traits like wisdom teeth and appendixes if they are so useless and anti-productive? How long have humans possessed these useless body parts? Wouldn't it make scientific sense that they would be eliminated by now?

There is an extremely delicate balance to our bodies and solar system alone. The composition of the air we breathe has just the right mixture of gases that if there was a slight percentage more or less of a certain gas, earth couldn't support life. The rotation of the earth, its orbit, and distance from the sun has to be at the exact speed and distance that it is now other wise, we would burn, freeze, get sucked into the sun, or be flung into space. If the earth didn't have to magnetic shield created by the poles with the exact force it has, we would be burned by solar flares. If we had too little ozone in the air, UV rays would kill us instantly. If we had too much ozone, we wouldn't get enough sun and would not be able to live. Our sun is at the perfect size and temperature. If it was a little larger, it would engulf us. And if it was slightly smaller, we'd freeze.

I am well aware of how the universe and our world functions. I am not oblivious as you claim and I am willing to hear what you have to say which is why I am happy to discuss this with you in a civil manner without the conversation degrading into personal insults. I find that intelligent arguments such as this helps reveal truth and I am merely presenting the facts that support my side.

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enmarwen In reply to righteouswolf [2012-11-09 13:10:17 +0000 UTC]

That's not true, there's no reason that a giraffe millions of years ago couldn't have benefited from a half as long neck, there are transitional forms for all manners of things. Things can stick around that provide no benefit, as long as there's no adverse reaction to it. If we look at wings, you'd think there's no way you could go from arms to wings without them being useless, and you'd be right. They'd be useless AS WINGS. BUT- there are many other uses feathers can provide. They can provide warmth, insulations. They can be decorative. They can allow an organism to perhaps glide. Just because we don't know or can't see a use for an intermediate feature doesn't mean there isn't one, or even that there has to be one.

And I can tell you exactly why evolution hasn't removed our wisdom teeth and appendixes. It hasn't had enough time. There's also the fact that modern medicine cancels out the need for them to selected against, but mostly not enough time. Evolution takes millions of years.

This delicate balance business, if the gas mixture were different, we would have evolved to work with those gasses, assuming most other criteria were met, or we wouldn't be here to ponder it. There's actually quite a lot of give in the distance we are from the sun, even as we are right now, these are called aphelion and perihelion. But even beyond that, there's still a zone called the habitable zone where, yes, the earth would be different, warmer or colder, but life could still exist. For our solar system that's up to THREE astronomical units. In case you didn't know, an astronomical unit is how far the earth is from our sun. So we could be twice as far away and life could still exist. Not life as we know it, but life. And no actually, the sun could be quite a bit larger or smaller, same thing. As long as a planet is in the habitable zone, life can exist assuming other conditions are met. There's no razor's edge. What you think is a razor's edge is really more like...a bridge. And not a very small one either.

If you really do want to learn the facts, none of which yours are, actually, try reading around [link] They're articles on evolution on nearly any subject you could think of, including stuff outside evolution such as the origins of the universe and the planets, etc. I know my stuff, but I'm not a biologist. Those articles are written by people whose jobs it is to understand and explain those things.

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doaler4 In reply to enmarwen [2011-12-21 13:12:02 +0000 UTC]

OH

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