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history-nerd β Quite a Foregone Conclusion
Published: 2012-11-29 12:45:08 +0000 UTC; Views: 6049; Favourites: 67; Downloads: 148
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A screen cap from the seventh episode of Girls und Panzer, in which the outcome of the battle of the Ooarai teams against Anzio High School is clearly shown. Although their enemy's reputation wasn't bad at all, they couldn't avoid defeat.Related content
Comments: 102
Well, it's not easy to decide who was the bravest. But it takes something to go against a Matilda with a tankette!
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I have always said the Italian tankers were the bravest, because they had to go fight in Italian tanks! The Ariete & Centauro divisions did their best, but the couldn't make up for the rest of the Italian army.
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To be objective, I'd have to say that there was an Italian tank with which one could at least take someone with him, and that's the Semovente M40; strangely, both in the picture and in the manga it looked like it was a downer, and I quite don't get it. Perhaps it's about ammo; it could take on tanks only if it had HESH ammo, otherwise it was off.
I'd like to put a word for the Littorio division; its name might be misleading, but it wasn't a fascist division, it was a regular army division. And at El Alamein it fought as hard and as stubbornly as the Ariete, if not even better.
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The Semovante was a good 'un, as I learned during my Squad Leader days. However, the Italian team was foredoomed by Oarai's clever leadership. It's true, the Littorio held the line as long as it could. Baka panzers couldn't do anything after charging into El Alam Haya trap earlier.
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Right. In the manga Anchovy does her best, which isn't so bad, but she can't be a match for Miho (besides, who can?).
Panzers are good, but they can do only as much. And walking into traps doesn't help.
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Would like to see a fanart of St Oarai cosplaying The Key to Rebecca, but I don't think anyone else would remember that.
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Uh... to be honest, that's outside of my knowledge, too...Β Β
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It's a novel by once-famous novelist Ken Follett, who was popular back in the Seventies & Eighties. (The end of the Cold War wrong-footed him on thriller stories! 
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Right; still, she did it for her team, not for herself...
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True, but still was damn rude towards Miho...
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I know, she has a truly jerk attitude.Β
That could be explained by the fact that her school is poor, therefore she's stuck with mediocre or outright bad tanks; either she goes "I hope at least we'll get some kills" or she keep being a complete jerk.Β
When you have a clear superiority, you can afford to be cool and paternalistic; if you're the one disadvantaged, there is a strong possibility you'll become super aggressive and noisy, to balance your inferiority. The ones with the inferiority complexes are the ones who scream, someone who's on top doesn't have the need.
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Well, that's my take. There might be some other reason, or perhaps she's just got a crappy personality. Let's wait the OVA and see.
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Indeed, maybe they'll show more about her. For now she's psychotic... i think close to Erika from Maho's team.
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Yeah, perhaps they were separated at birth! XD
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Or simply cousins... cousins don't have to look alike and if they were siblings then they would have bear some close resemblance at some point... even if it was the rare case of twins having different fathers... would rather reflect bad on their mother...
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I don't know, I just put in on the table.
But you know what random thought crossed my mind. It just suddenly occurred to me that here we are saying how much she was a complete asshole; yet, she didn't play dirty as another certain girl had done before her *cough*Alisa*cough*! I mean, one thing is to have a "you-will-all-bow-before-me" attitude, another thing is outright cheating (and the fact that the rules didn't specifically mention it doesn't matter, what it counts is the spirit!).
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Yeah as much as I read manga she didn't play dirty ( unlike Alisa ) DURING THE MATCH, before trying to knock Miho off balance with that rude remark about her last match... that's bit of cheating, psychological warfare in a way.
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I see your point. But then, so could be considered Katyusha's reaction to Ooarai's tanks, or all of Erika's banter.
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Katyusha is a girl that has low-height complex. So she needs to play BIG. As for Erika... she's holding a grudge against Miho for their defeat when Miho saved that other team from that tank and simply is too blindly loyal to the "Nishizumi School's way of doing Sensha-do".
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Yes, and Anchovy has the issue of being pretty much the butt of everyone's jokes, thanks to the tanks she is forced to use.
Therefore, I'd say, yes she might be less rude, but I can't really blame her. I found online (but I can't be sure if it was canon or not, probably not) that her school was notable for not even ever achieving a finalist position (at least among the "big guns", meaning not considering schools like the polish one, the spanish one, exc.).Β
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Well i'd love to see Oarai vs Polish school. I don't think Anchovy with Italian tanks would be a match for Polish school ( and i know the equipment that Polish school could use and comparing to italian tanks, they'd rate close to Oarai's equipment )... Well you're right, if Anchovy and her team from Anzio never made it to finals ( or even semi-finals ) then she'd have some inferiority complex...
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Why? I mean, the glimpse of the Polish school vs Pravda showed us a 7TP twin-turreted tank; if their force is made up by 7TP (both the twin- and single-turreted version) and, I don't know, some TKS tankettes, that would leave Anzio with quite a lead. And those AFVs were pretty much all Poland had in WW2.
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I'll list up all AFV's Polish army had (regardless if prototype, design, or small numers ). And Sensha-do permits tanks that were still on drawing board too during the war ). Tankettes and their derivates - TK-3, TKS, TKS-N (20mm gun - www.1939.pl/uzbrojenie/polskie⦠- here's full specs of it ( Polish language only so i can either translate for you on request or you can use google translate )), TK-W ( TK with rotating turret ), TK-F (better engine than TK-3, TK-D - one of the 1st Tank Destroyers in the world ( 47 mm AT gun "Pocisk" mod. 27 (Bullet)), TKS, TKS-d ( armed with 37mm Bofors AT Cannon ( 2nd polish tank destroyer/mobile gun)).
Proof here - www.1939.pl/uzbrojenie/polskie⦠( again google translate or translation by humble "yours truly" available on request ). That concludes tankettes.
Now here comes thing for Tanks.
Vickers E ( both Twin and Single turret ), 4TP ( prototype, considered being equipped with that 20mm gun ), 7TP ( Single and twin turret), 9TP (upgrade of 7TP, protype), 10TP ( different design from 7TP, using only same tower and gun ( close in some resemblance with Christies tank ), 14 TP ( project that was still on drawing board ), 20 TP (project on drawing board). From imported French tanks ( we did have some ) Renault FT17, Renault R35, Hotchkiss H35 (only 3 bought for testing but had to see action during 1939 campaign ).
www.1939.pl/uzbrojenie/polskie⦠- proof for most of them here. Please be advised that 20TP was not fully developed project so it may or may not be possible to recreate it ( hence it might not be allowed to used in Sensha-do ).
As you can see from this list, Anchovy would face quite diverse equipment variety. Much better in quality than her italian tanks.
Also, could you please mention where this glimpse of Pravda vs Polish school is? Is it in the Manga ( i haven't finished reading it yet ) or Anime ( maybe forgot some part there )?
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Whoa... I admit I didn't know there were so much designs studied in Poland at a time. I guess I never looked into it with the depth it deserved.
Still, forgive me, I'm not being stubborn, but I still don't quite see the huge quality advantage those tanks have over their Italian counterparts.
I mean, of all the TKS models only those with 20 mm guns could be useful (and in that they are superior to Anzio's tankettes, since those only have machine-guns, even if a model with a 20 mm anti-tank rifle was used in North Africa).
As for the tanks... well, the 7TP is comparable to the M13/40, and perhaps somewhat better (I don't know about the 7TP, but the M13/40 had an underpowered engine, mediocre visibility for the pilot and the commander and even more mediocre optics, while I heard that in Poland there was the revolutionary Gundlach tank periscope); the main armament had roughly the same hitting power (or so I deduced, maybe wrongly : is it true that the Bofors 37 mm could pierce 40 mm of vertical armor at 1000 meters? If I'm wrong please tell me).
Still, Anzio has one 25-ton tank armed with a 75 mm gun (the P26/40, with its own reliability issues, but still a relatively modern tank), while a Polish equivalent may be only the 20/25TP (which I looked up in here:Β en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20/25TP) . And besides, it has some Semoventi SPG with 75 mm howitzers, which were amongst the most successful Italian AFVs, despite having some serious flaws themselves.
So, while I admit that I was wrong in considering only a handful of Polish armor, I can't see how its quality is so superior to Italian armor. Is there any factor I haven't considered?Β
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I forgot one thing about TK-D and TKS-d - they wouldn't do in Sensha-do... they had no top armour hence a huge risk of getting killed or injured while using them...
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As for Bofors 37... there was no tank on German side that would withstand its hit. Whats more, even out Anti-Tank rifle Kb.UR wz.35 ( mod 35 ) was able to pierce through Panzer IV's armour. Germans after the September 1939 campaign decided to thicken their tanks armours. As for Bofors 37... possible, and at 1000 meters was its most effective range. We had also field cannon 1897 75mm ( this baby was french design but after getting AT shells it was deadly ). Up to 500 meters this one could possibly damage Char B1 and T-34 ( the former certainly, the latter less likely as its front armour was sloped ). There were also cases of using Horse artillery's 75mm howitzer (Pravoslavna/Putilovka) as AT Gun, and also reported usage of Bofors cal. 40 AA Gun to fight tanks. Whatever was at hand had to do. At worst... a bottle of petrol had to do ( e specially against russians invading from the East ). The subject is so broad we can discuss it for hours.
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Well You're right that Anchovy's main tank she uses would be tough nut to crack but still possible. But it would take either 2 7TP ( or even involve 2 10TP ) or more TKS-N (( 20mm gun ) which was lighter and lower height equivalent of Panzer II ) to take it down. Also ofcourse there is part of the crews. I immagine that Polish school crews would have to be able to improvise a lot. If you can get some info on General Stanislaw Maczek and his time during 1939 September campaign you'll see what I mean. He was the best polish tank commander and one which commanded tank units throughout entire war. In the early days of September he devised a very effective tactic against German Panzers... ( Ofcourse please take into account the entire situation of all armies in September and the German air superiority ), hence if there will be polish school in Girls und Panzer they will be certainly referring and using Maczek's tactics in some extent. As for 20/25TP it'd be extremely tough against Anchovy's tank. Quality of Gun, the 75mm AA gun outfitted with AT shells would've proven to be deadly. I think it'd be a fight between those 2 tanks on quite equal level ( I think even Miho's Panzer IV would have some problems before taking down the polish tank ). As for 7TP Engine - it was 1st ever tank in the world to have Diesel Engine - one of advantages was that if tank was hit it had extremely low chance to catch fire. Bad side was that Diesel fuel wasn't widespread in Poland at the time. We were developing country at the time and didn't have such great use for Diesel's in civilian sector. There is a story about Tank crews using Vickers E that faced lack of normal fuel had to use improvised mix of alcohol and parrafin oil to keep the tanks going.
Now to divert from the topic of tanks themselves and Anchovy. I encourage you to see more this site i gave you about polish equipment. There are lots of myths about polish army backwardness in 1939 which were even strengthened during the communist times in Poland. If you check the - Uzbrojenie (Armaments) tab there you'll be able to see equipment of all sides in 1939 September campaign. Once you choose the side there will be specific sections for each formation. Pictures will guide you easily without translating to enter each category. Have fun exploring it.
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Well, about Diesel engines Italian tanks used those, too (except for the L3 tankettes and the M15/42), so fires from that part weren't likely; of course, there were many fires for ammo rack hits.
Protection for many Italian tanks would be an issue, I acknowledge that; at most, medium tanks had 42 mm, the Semovente had two frontal plates for a total of 50 mm (but was specially treated so it was capable of taking 2-Pounder shots), and even the P40 had barely 60 mm of armor, even if sloped. And, of course, it was almost always bolted and of mediocre quality, so it sometimes cracked after non-penetrating hits.
The only guns which were tolerable were the 75 mm howitzer mounted on the Semovente (which wasn't an anti-tank gun, but could fire reliable HESH rounds called "Effetto Pronto" - Ready Effect, which could destroy M3 Lee and M4 Sherman tanks), and the 75 mm gun on the P40 (which was derived from a good field gun that, unfortunately, was never mass produced, yet in Russia this was the only gun which proved effective against T-34s).
Anyway, after all the technical thingies, thank you for your advice. I'll work to improve my knowledge of such topics; in my defense, I can only say that, while I am not much knowledgeable, I already knew enough to surmise that many such myths were wrong (the Polish Aviation being destroyed on ground, German tanks steamrolling into Poland unopposed, etc.)
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Thats nice to hear that you're among those who know that part of the truth. On that site you'll see that we even had projects of modern ( comparable with German and British ) fighter planes ( and few prototypes ). We even developed equivalent ( slightly better ) of Heinkel He-111. We had equipment but didn't have the numbers of it. If our first full metal modern fighter was in number of at least 100, Germans would've won with extreme losses ( German Air Superiority was extremely key factor in their victory in September Campaign also along with their concentration of forces ). Well Anchovy's P40 would be tough tank and only 20/25TP would be a match. Others would be more or less equal or easier targets for 7TP/Vickers/10TP.
As for being more or less knowledgable - its such conversations as ours that help both sides gain more knowledge or give new directions in which we can expand our knowledge. Indeed you did enlighten me on the Italian tanks, i did know that they were but didn't ever go into more technical details.
As for myths - there is one about polish cavalry. It stated that cavalry charged against tanks and sometimes used sabres. This myth originates from the 1st day of World War 2. I found the Italian language version (decided to pay a visit to your profile here ) of article in Wikipedia.
it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battagliβ¦
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Well, it may be overlooked, but they did suffer some pretty serious losses, in the air and especially in the tank force; their force was pretty much spent.
I heard about that, but I didn't know it had originated from an Italian journalist, and a pretty famous one, too!
What I read was that the Polish cavalry often deployed their guns against panzers, and the panzers didn't enjoy that one bit!
Those myths are pretty much hard to dispel, especially if someoen is trying to cover for his own mistakes; sometimes, commanders of units defeated by Italians would say that they had German support or that they had used some sneaky tactics to surprise them.
Even during a major battle, when the Italian Armoured Division "Ariete" was attacking a motorized division, its commander phoned its superiors and yelled "I have a bloody German panzer division overrunning my position!". That supported the generalized view that Italian troops couldn't win without their allies' support.
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Yeah, on September the 1st at Mokra there was a battle of cavalry with Panzers - Polish Wolhynia Cavalry Brigade assisted by Armoured Train, did inflict serious blow to germans (40-50 Panzers lost ( some later salvaged and repaired) and 150 other armoured vehicles ). This was a battle quite successful, though ofcourse with such great superiority from Air and Panzers the Cavalry brigade had to retreat the next day. There were also charges with AA guns which surprised germans. By charges mean the artillery piece and crew quickly getting into possition, deploying the gun and surprising germans. At the time Cavalry was considered the elite of the army.
As for myths - many of them are still kept by our former allies ( British e specially ). E specially about the operation Market Garden. They blame our General Stanislaw Sosabowski for their own failure ( Sosabowski wanted to continue the fighting while the british commanders wanted to retreat while saving their "face"). Sosabowski got provoked and said couple of harsh but true words about their commanders. Britts used it against him.
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Episode 7. They should get more in a special OVA.
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"And that students is why you don't copy the Italians"
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In the manga version, if you copied them, you would come not so far from victory.
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psh. Manga Shmanga. Everyone knows if you copy Italian or French tanks you will loose. French tanks only have one gear, reverse. While Italian tanks can only shoot white flags.
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That is not fair.
French tanks were comparable or even superior to most of the German tanks of 1940, and didn't manage to show it only because of details (idiotic deployement, lack of radios, inferior tactical knowledge).
Italian tanks were mediocre and always in short numbers, but some models at the very least proved to be effective : the Semovente da 75 (one of them appears above) could handle anything it found in North Africa.
I believe that, if people read books and learn history, instead of just saying simple and unfair jokes, perhaps history wouldn't be such a battleground sometimes.
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Look. I was only joking. In fact I know that French tanks were good. It was the failure in French doctrine that lost them the war. As for the Italians, well maybe they may have had some good tanks and planes, but they were always being bailed out by the Germans and their lack of numbers means their not really well known.
Truth is most WWII tanks sucked. Early German tanks were pathetically armored, and their later heavy tanks broke down a lot.
American tanks had a tendency to catch fire and then explode.
Russian tanks (especially the T-34) are over glorified and were actually really weak. They were just really really cheap.
Much of this still applies to modern tanks as well. In fact the only country I can think of that has actually made tanks that function well and don't die a lot, are the British (Though I could be wrong with that).
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Ok, cool.
Allow me to just offer you a piece of advice : there's nothing wrong in joking a bit about history themes; but I think it's ok when you believe you have a fair knowledge of the topic. Doing that when you only heard about it (which, forgive me for saying that, it's the case with many who talk about Italian tanks) or it's not your field (which is fair, we can't know everything)... just be careful.
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Well considering that studying World War II, its battles, its machinery, etc is a personal hobby of mine. I think I do have the right to joke about it. Maybe it's true that I haven't spent all that much time learning about what powered the Italian military (they didn't exactly leave as big a mark in the war), but if you notice my first joke was not actually geared towards the tanks themselves and more towards the fact that the Italian military needed Germany to bail them out in every conflict. Including the defense of their own homeland. The second joke I made about French and Italian tanks was again less geared towards the tanks they fielded, and more about the tactical and doctrinal shortcomings.
I didn't mean to hurt anyone's feelings. A joke is a joke. If someone made a joke about American tanks exploding. I would laugh and brush it off. No point getting all mad about it.
Also frankly. It was kinda stupid for Anzio to field machinegun armed tankets in a sport about tank warfare.
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I'm just saying that sometimes certain kind of jokes tend to perpetuate some common sayings that are not exactly coinciding with the historical truth.
And I'm not defending Italian tanks at all costs. I flipped too when I saw the tankette.
Btw, did you look at the manga? Not because I told you, just because it's pretty cool.
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Yes. I did read the manga. Though I kinda just skipped to the battle with Anzio.
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Well, while the result is pretty much the same, it's not a cakewalk for Ooarai. Anzio does land a few good shots : they defeat the M3 Lee, the Type 89B and they cripple the Char B1bis, which is not half bad for a team with three useless and crappy tankettes, three mediocre M13/40 medium tanks, two fair Semoventi M40 SPGs and one decent P40 heavy tank.
In fact, I think it's a fair showing on the relative strenght of Italian armor. Lots of worthless tankettes, then a backbone of only passable medium tanks capable of taking on only light tanks, and a few good SPGs which were too little, too late. The P40 didn't even entered service in the Italian Army, only in the Wehrmacht. That said and done, they did fight at the best of their chances, which weren't good at all, and they did earn some respect from their enemies.
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I would agree with your assessment. Though compared to their other battles it is a cake walk. The M3 is driven by the fail team (well fail team till the finale episodes) the Type 89B is, technically speaking, the worst tank on their team, and B1 is slow and makes a really big target. That being said Ooarai's three remaining tanks were primary German tanks. Technically speaking Ooarai just had better equipment. And it should be noted that 3 of Ooarai's teams were short one member so that they could man the B1.
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True, although perhaps I should mention that, of the Anzio tanks, only the P40 could take out from the distance the M3, no matter how conspicuous it is or how green its crew was; the Type 89B is the worst tank but it's also, together with the Panzer 38(t), the smallest; and the Char B1, while slow and big, it's also heavily armored (in fact, they only manage to destroy its tracks and stop its turret, but they don't technically defeat it).
And, as bad as a performance they did (they lost their tankettes and at least one M tank just at the beginning), they were just about to take out the StuG, so they did at least come near victory. If we go by tanks alone (in which I absolutely agree that Ooarai had the upper hand), Ooarai wouldn't have made it not even past the first round.
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Well the first round was actually a matter of numbers and not tanks. The M3, Stug, and Panzer IV are all matches for the M4 Sherman. It was only due to being out numbered that they would have lost.
Again to Anzio. As you said they only managed to take out the tracks of the B1. Furthermore they lost almost their entire force early on. I should just like to make a point that Anzio didn't really stand a chance, they only had a few tanks of quality enough to tank on Ooarai's team which was made up mostly of really good German tanks, one of the best French tanks, and a decent US tanks.
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If we go into quality, we might ask ourselves why Ooarai did bother to show up at the Finals, since quality was not quite on their side...
However, I am afraid I have to disagree with you. As the show demonstrated more than once, all you need is one shot. Anzio almost managed to get that shot, so it had a few chances. Besides, the tankettes were obviously meant only to bait Ooarai, so they can hardly be considered in the total. Their plan was to get the enemy tank in the range of the P40 and take out the flag tank.
Besides, the Panzer 38(t) (which was a Czechoslovak tank, by the way) was a good light tank early on, but hardly a big slugger, while the M3 Lee, powerful as it may be, has shown time and again to be a pretty big target, only managing to do what it did on Episode 12 because of the urban environment and no little degree of luck.
Nothing to say about the Panzer IV and the StuG, though.
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And it was a god plan. Considering that they were really out gunned. The Panzer IV and Stug alone provide twice the fire power of the P40. The P40 was Anzios only 75mm gun (which is about what you need for a 1 hit 1 kill. The Stug, the Panzer IV both have 75mm (though the Stug is probably the only one that could have hit their P40 at range). The B1 and Lee both have 75mm as well, but they have limited traverse both side to side and up and down. Meaning that Ooarai only fields two tanks with firepower below 75mm. Anzio had only 1 tank with a 75mm gun and that was the P40.
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