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history-nerd β Quite a Foregone Conclusion
Published: 2012-11-29 12:45:08 +0000 UTC; Views: 6052; Favourites: 67; Downloads: 148
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Description
A screen cap from the seventh episode of Girls und Panzer, in which the outcome of the battle of the Ooarai teams against Anzio High School is clearly shown. Although their enemy's reputation wasn't bad at all, they couldn't avoid defeat.Related content
Comments: 102
Not in theory; they also had two Semoventi M40 armed with a 75 mm howitzer. But since historically the only reason those guns and vehicles were successful was because of their HEAT shells, since their AP shells had pretty much the same effectiveness of those fired by the short-barreled Panzers IV and StuG, it doesn't make that much difference, so you're pretty much right. Also about being outgunned.
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Either way it was probably the only fight in the entire series where Ooarai wasn't really the underdog.
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Quote from GeneralMajor F. W. Von Mellenthin, staff officer of Panzerarmee Afrika, ten years after the war :
"I have no sympathy with those who talk contemptuously about the Italian soldier, without pausing to consider the disadvantages under which he labored. The armament of the Italian army was below modern requirements : the tanks were too light and very unreliable from the technical point of view and the Italian wireless sets were quite unsuited to mobile warfare and could not function on the move. During the North African Campaign Italian proofs gave many proofs of dash and courage; this applies particularly to those who came from the cavalry regiments."
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Yeah, this is pretty much how it went for Italy in the REAL war too: have some fun knocking around Ethiopia, serve as bench-warmers for Germany, then get curb-stomped in Sicily.
Actually, forget what I said: THESE girls probably put up a better fight than Mussolini ever did
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Thank you for your comment, that shows you possess a shallow and poorly informed knowledge of Italy in World War Two.
I could spend a lot of time and space telling you otherwise, but for mercy's sake I'll merely point out this site : [link]
I would strongly suggest that you read at least that article before giving such clear cut comments again, thank you.
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Thanks for the article, but I strictly MEANT for my comment to come off as a joke. I know "history-nerd" is literally in your name, but you don't have to get wound up if somebody makes fun of history without mentioning all the facts. It's like how everybody calls the French "Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys" based on the 1941 Blitz, without mentioning the French Resistance, Napoleon, and - well, just about the rest of France's military history. Likewise, the joke doesn't care about all the parts of Italy in WWII, just the parts that are easy to make fun of. Oh, and if you take my statement literally (i.e. the girls fought better than Mussolini, (as in, the man himself, as opposed to "Mussolini, his stooges, and the guys Mussolini played stooge to")), the statement's still true: Mussolini knew damn well he was a puppet ruler to Germany at the end of the war, and, when caught, basically told his executioners to "get it over with". The girls at least put up a fight - Mussolini knew it was no use.
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I see your point. Well, perhaps I should point out that the 'foregone conclusion' not only reflects what I see as a lingering prejudice against Italy's performance in WW2, but also the fact that the series' producers had to choose between showing this battle or exploring the characters' background; they chose the latter, and they did well. However, I can't help but feel somewhat let down, because this is part of that prejudice that should've been dispelled and taken into a more objective account : while initially only armed with L3 tankettes (and it's significant that those girls have at least one, I think), the Italian tank forces fought well, and while the Allied field soldiers overall recognized this, their relations and official history suffer from some effort to avoid the stygma of being defeated by the Italians : for example in the instances of Bir El Gubi and Point 175.
And even if the Anzio team's leader is wearing a Blackshirts-like uniform, I'd also like to say that Fascism and the war were somewhat different things (even if the Blackshirts were also fighting troops, distinct from the Regio Esercito). Mussolini didn't concern himself much with strategy and army, unlike Hitler; that's something that should be kept in mind.
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Okay, I get your points:
First, not all of the Italians were club-card-carrying Blackshirts, the way not all Germans were club-card-carrying Nazis. I understand, and respect that.
Second, the Italian tank forces did well with what they had. I understand, and respect that.
But the point is that, compared to the Axis they relied upon, and ESPECIALLY compared to the Allies they were fighting against, they were overwhelmed by quantity AND quality, in both troops and commanders. When the country WAS invaded, it was less a question of "How could the Italians kick out the Allies?", but more "How long would the Italians fight before they see the writing on the wall, and surrender?" Sure, they might have fought on until the whole country was a burnt-out wreck, but that only delayed the inevitable.
It's not that Italy completely sucked in the war - it was just that they were overshadowed by armies FAR better than they were, and for good reason.
I admit they shouldn't be COMPLETELY forgotten by modern culture (it'd give more variety of target practice than all those damn Nazis), but I think you're trying to give Italy a lot more credit than it deserves. It was good, but it wasn't good enough. It wasn't a punching bag, but it wasn't a champion. And when their tanks square up to Panzers and Shermans, and their commanders square up to Rommel, Montgomery, Patton, and all the rest, they were ultimately out of their league.
P.S. - If it makes you feel better, the Manga version details the Anzio fight better, while giving Saunders (a.k.a. the Americans) the proverbial axe. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
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Thanks, I already knew it was shown in the manga.
And I'm not trying to paint them as champions, nor to overrate them; I'm aware that at last they were defeated. I merely want them to stop being the butt of everyone's jokes. If it wasn't your intention to depict them as such, I'm sorry for overreacting, but the fact is many think they are nothing but the comical part of World War Two.
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yeah, kinda hard to take Italian tanks seriously when you get descriptions on their construction being described in a manner like this in comparison to British tank designs of the time : [link]
I even admit, I would have a hard time taking an italian tank from that time seriously after just hearing the wording of it "disassembling itself just from an impact from a high explosive round". It really ruins anything positive you can say for the tanks. But of course, I'm not all to familiar with Italian tank designs that came later during the war that for all I know, they were just about to get better.
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Well, they were getting better.
As a stopgag measure, they used their M tank chassis to make a SPG that could double as an effective tank destroyer, the Semovente 75/18; it was the only Italian AFV that managed to make an impression on British crews, since it could knock out both the M3 Lee and the M4 Sherman, with hollow charge shells.
The next step was to be the P40, a tank developed since 1940 but that, due to utter stupidity, hadn't been produced yet as of 1943; a relatively good medium tank with a more than decent 75 mm gun, it could have been somewhat a match for the Sherman and the other Allied medium tanks, even if it still carried many drawbacks (riveted armour, two man turret, no commander's cupola).
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Well, the Italian military does have a hard-luck record
based on the sources I've used here [link] I think their primary failure results from the political inability to get rid of poor commanders. That, poor planning and a lack of heavy equipment ultimately doomed their military enterprises.
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Well, the number of poor commanders wasn't that much higher than other armies, but they were often used badly (the 10th Army experienced commander General Sibille was substituted by a newcomer just weeks before the Sidi Barrani offensive, while the highly competent and charismatic CSIR commander General Messe was recalled to Italy because he had advised not to send more troops to Russia).
I'd focus my attention on the industrial planning that was so messed up. At the beginning of the war they could have built near Naples a bo keep building obsolete equipment, like 47 mm guns which were rapidly useless as AT guns and divisional artillery, and like the Fiat CR.42 fighter, which although a fine machine was simply not up to the task against the enemy.
I absolutely agree about poor planning, though. They had years to train and form some torpedo-bombers squadron, but they kept discussing and had to improvise from scratch, and wasted the best chance they got to hurt the British ships. The attack on Greece was an epic-class blunder, all because Mussolini wanted to repay Hitler who did his things without warning to him; thousands of soldiers were killed by the enemy or by the cold because of it.
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I agree with you, but I still think there are serious problems with the officer corps. Granted it's not as bad as at Caporetto in WWI, but there are still issues in terms of outlook.
"Where more elevated military learning was involved, [Pietro] Badoglio saw no reason to waste time on the tactics of tank warfare, suggesting in the summer of 1940 that there would be plenty of opportunity after the conflict to study the german handling of such weapons. At no stage in the war did industry manage to produce a serviceable tank, capable of taking on the Soviets' T-34 or even its English rival." Mussoliniβs Italy p444
Having a Chief of General Staff at the beginning of a war suggest that they wait until its conclusion before learning how to use a major asset to its fullest possible advantage is not a recipe for success. And given the industrial issues, it really just makes a bad situation worse.
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That is true. The cultural and technical level of preparedness of the Italian officer corps was undoubtedly low, even if there were some (sadly few) exceptions, like the one I mentioned before, General Messe, who commanded the last resistance of Axis troops in Tunisia.
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I also should mention that the fact that they are all wearing Black Shirts is not very appealing for me either.
However, if they sang "Fischia il vento" while going into battle, that would make it completely different.
And yes, you can take that comment to mean exactly what you think it means. (You are Italian so only you and any other Italian that reads this will understand.) But just in case: I hate SocietΓ Sportiva Lazio
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No problem, I'm not a soccer fan.
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Yeah, okay, but that's not what I meant.
Again, the key words here were "Black Shirts" and "Fischia il vento"
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Well, it's more or less the same with the Pravda girls with their Soviet-style uniforms and coat of arms.
And, by the way, "Fischia il vento" was a partisan song, and since they style themselves after the army, it would be quite a jump, I think... And besides, it would not change the uniforms to something more neutral, like those of the Regio Esercito.
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I know it was a Partisan song. That's why I mentioned it. I would also like "Bella ciao"
And I liked how the Pravda girls went, and them singing "Katyusha" too.
And Regio Esercito is not neutral, they were fighting for the Allies. I like the Partisans better.
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Actually I meant "politically" neutral. The Regio Esercito fought the Allies until September 8th 1943, when it virtually disbanded. Some reformed formations then participated to the rest of the Italian campaign on the side of the Allies.
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Well, you want to see Anzio in full potential? Read the manga.
Here's a link: [link]
Anzio appears first time in page 25 of chapter 6. [link]
There you will see the full match of Anzio, plus a more in depth detail of that school. You will notice that they are completely based on Mussolini's Italy. They are not only dressed in Black Shirts, but their leader Anchovy, is called "Il Duce" by her subordinates.
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Actually, I had already read that; I wasn't surprised.
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They are based on Italy. Had you seen Italy's record in WW2? They were to the Axis what France was to the Allies, with the difference that they were defeated more easily.
Now that they fight Pravda, now that's going to be interesting, since that school is based on the USSR. And we all know what the USSR did in WW2.
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I could give you a rather harsh response, but I might get irrational about that. So, I'll just give you the advice of reading the article at this link :
[link]
Read it, then come to your own conclusion. That's all I'm asking.
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Okay, first of all, since I didn't give a harsh comment, I don't see why you should feel even compelled to give a harsh answer (or even comment that you were considering it)
Second, I don't usually believe Wikipedia articles, I consider them unreliable, but I did do research of my own, regarding Italy's campaign in Northern Africa and the ally invasion of the peninsula.
Third, I never implied that Italians were cowards, I just pointed out that they didn't do much in WW2 except loosing almost every time they faced someone that was equipped like them (so, their conquest of Ethiopia doesn't really count).
And finally, the foremost thing you have to consider is that Girls und Panzer is made in Japan. Japanese mentality on WW2 is different than that of the west. We see Italy as a complete military incompetent in all of their fictional works involving anything remotely related to WW2, (for example, the Hetalia series). For the Japanese, which were part of the Axis powers, Italians are easy to defeat, that is the stereotype they left from WW2, just like the USA considers that France surrenders easily, regardless of that being true or not.
In other words, convincing me will make no difference, you should try to convince Japanese popular culture on WW2 history regarding the Italians. For them, Italy will always be a country that is easy to defeat, and incompetent in military matters.
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Well, to answer your first question, I was tempted to because you gave a very short and final statement, which was quite too simplistic in my hopinion.
For second, if they are referenced, you could trust a little bit more Wikipedia articles, also because this one had quite a variety of references, and also pointed out that, contrary to your statement, Italy didn't fight anyone that was equipped like them with the exception of Greece and Yugoslavia, the Allies were technologically superior in almost any aspect, so they actually were inferior in industries, productivity and upgrades.
Third, I get that this is how Japanese people sees Italians, and I accept it. But that doesn't mean you have to blindly follow this line of thought, otherwise I'd be thinking, like the majority of my fellow Italians, that Japanese are crazy people who have an alien sense of honour and plunge their swords in their bellies and plunge themselves with airplanes loaded with explosives against enemy vessels. I am not so narrow-minded, and I strive to seek that others see that way.
However, I have to say that I hope Italians will never get the chance to prove this popular wisdom wrong, because we'd have to get into another war. And for our country, the last one was more than enough.
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No, but they are stereotypes. And stereotypes are used in entertainment media, be it Holllywood movies, books, TV shows, etc. Even video games.
And in the case of Japanese Manga and Anime, this stereotypes follow what the Japanese see of this other countries. Just like Italian comic books and wild west movies show a stereotype of what the wild west was in the USA.
Unfortunately for you, and me (my country also suffers from being sterotipically labeled in a certain way), people will view countries and people first by stereotypes, until the end of someone not using them, which will be never (considering that the entertainment industry producers actually encourage writers and directors to use stereotypes in their work.)
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I hold out in the hope that the manga will be more detailed regarding the battle. I would like to see more of her, even if I am not fond of her (but I am of the P40 and the Semovente 
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Ok, the gig's over, I saw the raw version of the second part of the battle. An almost total shutdown, and in the end Anchovy has a fit, unlike here when she simply collapses.
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I wanted to see the battle... 13 episodes are not enough!
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well nice to see italian tanks in that show even it is little bit ^^
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The smallest isnt even a tank its a so-called tankette basically a machinegun carrier whit a top on it, even the renault ft17 could smash it
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i know italians tanks where very old and not so smooth in numbers ^^
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The result of pretending to be a Great Power while having a weak and obsolete industrial base. They had the skills, they didn't have the tools.
Same went for airplanes. The Fiat G.55 Centauro (with DB engine) was more than capable of holding his own against enemy and German fighters, but they required for each plane 15,000 man-hours of work, while a Bf.109 needed only 5,000.
Still, the P40 and the Semovente are theoretically in the same league of the Panzer IV and the StuG III respectively. So, I believe this is most about bad tactics.
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Also by the fact that Anzio's commander insulted Miho saying that her Tankery skills are weak.
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Yes, that is the last proof we need.
Of course, since the German team is the one of Miho's sister and they want to leave things ambiguous there, they had to put in a total jerk somewhere else, and they chose the Italian. Quite stereotypical, but I'll take what it's given, I don't have the heart to complain.
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the tankhunter on the back though was i believe quite capable of taking on the desert queen (im not sure though, to lazy to check it in my books >_<) i believe it was called the semovete?
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Yes, it's a M40/M41 Semovente 75/18, but even if it was one of the best Italian AFVs in the war, I'm not sure its main gun was able to penetrate the frontal armour of the Matilda (I think that is what you're referring to, right?). I read it was able to knock out any Allied tank with the likely exception of the Churchill.
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the 75/18 could tackle the sherman providing the shell is a heat, the churchill was a noway, but i cant find anything on the mathilda 2 but if it could take a sherman it probibly has no problem whit the mathilda.
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You're right, providing it had the so-called "effetto-pronto" shell (which was a HEAT, even if there is no unanimity on this on the net) it could take on its enemies, while when using the AP shell the situation changed.
When the Semovente arrived in Africa, however (and it began to arrive late in 1941) there were already few Matildas in frontline service in the Eighth Army, so it's unlikely they met in battle, but not outright impossible.
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yes but it was never intended to be tank destroyer or assault.. i believe it was meant to be a mechinized artillary or am i wrong?? its ammo rack was that big
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It's as you say. It was designed to be mechanized artillery, in the practice the Semoventi had to work as close-range tank destroyers.
About the ammo rack, it could normally hold more or less 48 shells, but in battle the crew often removed their seats, and took on as much as 100!
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in this case the italian L3/33 tankette
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Exactly. A no-tank, and I'm really puzzled as to how anyone could think it could do anything beside being owned.
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Yes. But there is one no-tank I would have liked not to see. Either they must be waaaaaaay overconfident, or they didn't have anything else to use.
And I have to agree with those who wonder how they defeated the French academy, since it is assumed they didn't knock out any tank, but just got pwned.
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probeby historically no onboard radios, motor courier, and poor morale -_-
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