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Incorrect-Password In reply to rchcc122 [2010-12-16 01:34:23 +0000 UTC]

First:
It's been proven time and time again, he was not the one who stole those documents.
The Army Private who stole them is getting charged.
Assange, along with the NYT and just about every single other major news source who reported on the contents of the cables, are the publishers.




Second:
"Sell not virtue to purchase wealth, nor Liberty to purchase power."

I keep hearing about this "safety" bullshit from people like you all the time.
Why is it okay to criminalize people, like assange, on the publishing and sharing of the documents, but turn a completely blind eye to the actual content of said documents.
There were 15,00 UNREPORTED civilian casualties that were attempted to be covered up.
There was the video of US Soldiers shooting at unarmed civilians from an attack helicopter, even killing those that tried to help them. Coverd up.

If what you say is true, and I really, really wish it worked like that, then it would be a-ok for that information to be shown without any backlash.
Alas, there has been a tiny bit of a ricochet on the part of the government and their very own laws (Patriot Act, the Espionage act) go against their own amendment.
If the government does not start treating their own country with respect, why should others?

Third:
I'm not going to lie and say I've read all of the American Constitution.
Apparently, neither have half the members of congress.
However I'm going to go on a limb here and say that the way the government is reacting right now to the whole Wikileaks situation is not how those that created your country envisioned it. The USA was created to protest the British monarchy, and I am aware it is a COUNTRY that respects free speech.
Country =/= Government.

Example:
I absolutely, postively, despise the way the United States GOVERNMENT runs things.
On the other hand, I love that the United States offers opportunities and has always been a place for those with the ambition to become something do that.
Government, Country. Two very different things that.

Also, we all know now that Canada has a total inferiority complex to the states I'm not even suprised.

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rchcc122 In reply to Incorrect-Password [2010-12-16 02:02:03 +0000 UTC]

First: Possession of stolen property is also a crime.
Second: I will say first and foremost: Some of the stuff published by Assange was not thought about by Assange and was instead a complete act of douchiness. Assange is a douchebag for using his fingers not his brain.
Every country has issues like that of cover-ups and soldiers acting barbarically. He has no buddies getting those now, does he? Or is he afraid if he published something exposing crimes like that from Russia he'd seriously be in deep shit because they don't have a constitution set up like ours? He's a coward. I'm sure with all he could do he could find videos from other countries/documents as such. But he hasn't. He's attacking one of the main countries that has protection against persecution. His case would most likely go to the Supreme Court and they [i]can't[/i] persecute him based on the constitution. Fucking. Coward.
He's spilling top secret government files. OF COURSE there's going to be backlash. That's like telling the school that a girl cheated on a test. Is it moralistic? Some may say so. But you're going to get backlash from all ends no matter what.
Texas v. Johnson: the case where the Supreme Court made flag burning protected free speech.
And as with most things, just because it's protected, doesn't mean you're going to get off without any complaints from any side. It just means it's not illegal.

Third: I agree. One of the things that bothers me is when people argue about the constitution without actually reading it and understanding the psyche behind it. It's not that long of a document, I've read through it multiple times during my first semester of a polisci major (for tests, but I still read it). And I think, if my history of US presidents is correct, we've only had one US president who's a political science major.

Fourth: The government is acting the same way a person would react if you splashed cold water on them while they're sleeping. It's not a pleasant wake-up call.

And Assange did endanger Canada when he released information about places vital to the US's security and life. A few of the places America relies heavily on for security- that if destroyed would be devastating to the United States is in Canada. He basically provided the US's enemies (and yeah... we have those) with a manual on where to strike to destroy the country.

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Incorrect-Password In reply to rchcc122 [2010-12-16 02:17:43 +0000 UTC]

First:
Then let it be so.

Second:
There have absolute been NO names whatsoever released in the cables.
In the Pentagon's reports that the cables were leaked from there were named, however those were edited out before the release of the cable doucment.

Cowardice?
You're going to call the guy who released this information that no doubt ALREADY has his life on many, many peoples hit-lists, and you think there is not atleast some form of bravery, or foolhardyness depending on how you view it, in there?
In the case of Russia there have been only minor cables released in regards to them, but those are from the documents they've recieved, which have primarily been American-based. How do you expect WikiLeaks to release the documents of Russia or other nations if they dont HAVE them.

How is it not the right thing to report someone for cheating on a test? I fail to see how that point even stands in this regard.
Complaints are okay, but when you have elected officials calling for the assassination of a civilian that just does not show well on them or their government.

Third:
Fo shizzle.

Fourth:
Do you not think this wake up call is long overdue?
Look at the way the country is going and tell me that there should not be WAY more accountability in the elected officials.
Tell me that the laws that work against citizens are not the byproduct of some bastardization of this countries patriotism.
The TSA's scanners, spying on civilians, the torturing of 'terrorists', hell the very definition of that term being changed to suit whomsoever purposes it serves.

If this is a splash of cold water I cannot WAIT for the government to get the bath it deserves to rid itself of the filth its accumulated,

I agree. There should not be a release on the actual military procedures or structure.
I do not, nor do these so percieved 'enemies', need to know how Mr.Marine is trained to react to a situation.

From what I've seen though what they're trained to do =/= what is always done.

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rchcc122 In reply to Incorrect-Password [2010-12-16 02:42:08 +0000 UTC]

Second:
He released the petty insults said by government officials about other government officials. What does he have to gain by releasing what a US government person called the French President? That does absolutely nothing! People say things like that constantly about their coworkers. All it does is sever respect between people.

It's not brave, it's stupid. If he wasn't such an arrogant bastard and said less in interviews about destroying the country, maybe I could respect him. But I've seen interviews where his words are just lined with malice and hate. When people are running on passion it's foolhardy. When people are running on their mind it's bravery.

And about Russia: Why can't he get them? I'm sure he could get England's papers. Or maybe even Germany's. If he found the right connections- which it seems he does- he could get a hold of them if he wasn't so hell-bent on papers exposing the US you know... if he wanted to really provide people with rounded information. Of course, if he just wants to show one side that's fine. Fox and MSNBC do that all the time.

I don't know how it's not right. I've reported someone for cheating. Some people gave me a pat on the back for doing it, others said it wasn't necessary and that people cheat all the time so why expose her?
I don't quite think you're imagining yourself in a government official's shoes.

Fourth:
I think you're not looking at the United States from the inside. You'r'e Canadian, right? You don't live with the government from the inside. You don't deal with the hype of each state trying to stay afloat during the recession, and then the country trying to stay afloat while we're being kicked from all sides.

If you were in the country, if you were talking to people from the country every single day, you would know the wake up call has been happening. It's been happening and we didn't need a fucking Australian to tell Americans what's wrong with this country. We KNOW.
Our wake up call was the aftermath of 9/11- you know, when two planes from people who didn't like our trade policies slammed into two buildings, when one slammed into the pentagon, and when another was brought down in Pennsylvania away from any real damage by heroes on a plane who never saw their families again- combined with the stock market crash: the worst since the Great Depression and then this year when the Democrats lost control of the House and super majority in the Senate.

What part of that isn't a wake up call?

People keep thinking we don't KNOW things are fucked up in the government right now. People act like politicians don't know. People from out of the country act like they need to TELL Americans that something's wrong.

People KNOW. And the government is scrambling to try and fix everything. It's a nation on the line right here. People are understanding that if things keep going the way they are, there's not going to BE a USA to fuck things up for the rest of the world come 50, 25, even 10 years from now. They're calling this the 9/11 of our secrets.

Contrary to popular belief, not all Americans are stupid.

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Incorrect-Password In reply to rchcc122 [2010-12-16 03:59:21 +0000 UTC]

Bravo.

Second:
These cables are documents that the US records with observations on other countries.
If in a cable I put something unprofessional, such as Hilary Clinton mocking the president of Argentina's mental state of health, a woman who recently lost her husband and was widowed.
If a an elected official like that, who is supposed to be representing your country, commentates like that on official documents then perhaps that person should be changed.

I don't judge a person's politic's based on their personality. I'm not going to comment on that.

Exactly. IF he could get the right connections. Kind of hard to do that when your behind bars for unjustified 'rape' allegations.

Thats the point.
If people know they can get away because "people do it all the time", and no one stops them, it just continues.
"This person is speaking against us? Well, we'll just have to neutralize him. Oh it's fine, this happens all the time"

Fourth:
It's not just the USA thats in a recession.
The stock markets are all tied together through the ties of global trade. When the US suffers, as do we in the north, and trust me these markets are suffering a lot.
I know damn well how hard it is to get by in these times, My mother is canadian and my father is a US citizen living in america. Since I travel often between the two I have dual-citizenship.
And that is all the more reason I DEMAND to know just why this depression happened.

How come the housing markets were being abused and nobody batted an eyelid?
Why were insurance companies defrauding thousands of people and not a single fuck was given?
Why is it, that every single time that these faults were brought about to congress beforehand, they were repelled for corporate interests? (See [link] )
Because our, yes our, governments failed us. And they only continue to do so.
Instead of social aid to citizens, the government spent the majority of the budget on military funding. [link] More than the rest of the world COMBINED spent on military.
Tell me why this is allowed?

I know about 9/11.
I have absolute respect for the families of victims, and the citizens who helped in the rescues.
It is a terrible event that should not have occured.
Despite all that, I'm SICK of it being used to justify completely unrelated arguments by governments, and then they turn around and deny the very people who HELPED in these rescues basic healthcare. [link]
Absolutely disgusting.

What wake-up call was recieved on 9/11?
The USA gave Al Qaeda weapons in the 70's to fight the soviet union.
We freaking worked with Bin Laden (He was called Osman or something of the sort back then) and we funded his campaign.

I realize that what they did should not go unpunished, but look at the aftermath of 9/11.
There were approximately 3,00 civilian casualties on that day.

In the Iraq War that followed, there are 25,000 CIVILIANS killed due to that conflict alone.

I have nothing against the soldiers who are fighting on behalf of their country, but there is no reason to be there anymore.
The USA, along with Britain, Canada, Austrailia, and all the other countries in that war have overstayed their visit.

If people know then why is there any controversy about this?
If you know there are backroom deals and corrupt seats of power why would you not want these facts exposed?

I really don't see the government scrambling to fix much. Perhaps on a municipal level, but federally....
The new tax cut laws. Nuff said.


I know not all americans are stupid.
I am one myself, along with my father and most of my family


This debate has really been enjoyable, but I think its apparent you've got your view and likewise for me.

We can agree to disagree, and thats the freedom I believe we should fight to protect.

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rchcc122 In reply to Incorrect-Password [2010-12-16 05:22:49 +0000 UTC]

I concur with you- we aren't going to agree with each other. I don't think it really means either of us are wrong, but that we're covering a lot of the problems. I do want- for my mental sanity- to clairfy a few things:

I understand that the US market crashing caused hell to break loose else where, I've been working on keeping up- especially with Greece and Ireland.

And I wasn't using 9/11 as an excuse for the war. It wasn't an excuse. I think the GOP is disgusting how they blocked that bill (I watch Jon Stewart and Colbert, they covered that). I just feel that it was an even that solidified a lot of anti-americanism and paranoia in Americans- turning them against the government. Most of my friends have all lost hope in it, and don't want to be American because of the tags it now has on it.
Which I think is a sad thing- not about the government, but just being ashamed to be American. It's happening more and more. Especially with Assange arising. That anti-Americanism is only going to increase inside the country. It took me an anime to actually start liking my country. But as a character, not a country.

Sorry, tl:dr rant.

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Incorrect-Password In reply to Scorpianato [2010-12-11 20:17:03 +0000 UTC]

I definitely think that police get the short end of the stick when doing their jobs.

However, like people, there will always be good and bad ones, and it's wrong to generalize 'em all like the people did there

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Incorrect-Password In reply to PoizonMyst [2010-12-11 18:56:21 +0000 UTC]

thats sad to read

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PoizonMyst In reply to Incorrect-Password [2010-12-14 15:44:28 +0000 UTC]

Indeed.

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