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Mudora In reply to CelestialDragon69 [2012-01-10 18:13:16 +0000 UTC]

Now that I've actually played the game, I was fairly impressed with some of the stuff they've done. Link and Zelda are very much expressive characters - certainly better than what most game studios count as expression.

Still... there was a lot of stiffness for a lot of other people. Budget aside, I still would love to see more of that.

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CelestialDragon69 In reply to Mudora [2012-01-11 04:33:42 +0000 UTC]

yeah I found it very refreshing, with the scenery and the music most of all... which I found out that the song "Ballad of the Goddess" is in fact "Zelda's lullaby" played backwards.... of course I didn't figure it out until I saw someone else playing it backwards on the internet....-_-'

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Mudora In reply to Scrawlers [2011-10-04 04:41:08 +0000 UTC]

While I can admit that WW Link and a lot of the characters in the game had their expressions, it was okay because that cartoony style allowed it. However, here in skyward sword, they revert to very simple expressions. When Zelda smiles it's the " OH LOOK I AM SO UNDENIABLY HAPPY SMILE. IT IS SO OBVIOUS THAT I AM HAPPY OH HURRAY". As an animation student, I find this rather bland and boring, and this doesn't tell me anything about a deeper character inside Zelda. Yes, I'm excited that she and Link are portraying something that isn't stoic, but it isn't that far of a leap either. In general, video games have a LONG way to go in this regard. And yeah, Skyward Sword hasn't been out yet, and I'm sure there's more to it than what animation can show, but it's still the touch of humanity games lack. There are many different versions of happy, many different versions of sad, angry, and surprise. I want the characters in game to be feeling this, as well as the feelings I am feeling during dramatic, happy, and sad moments. So far, no video game does this. Not even L.A. Noire. Motion capture can only do so much.

But reiterating my point, the expressions are plain, simple, and feel like they are there to be there, and that's all. The best it can do is give us an impression. Sometimes they're good impressions, sometimes not. Either way, I'm not that blown away by what Nintendo has done as far as animation goes. Does that mean I won't play the game? HELL NO. Of course I'm going to play it, enjoy it, fan girl over it, and love it anyway. Just from my visual stand point, the facial expressions and animation could be pushed. (If budget allowed)

Thanks for the insight and comments though, as always.
As always though, you make wonderful i

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Scrawlers In reply to Mudora [2011-10-04 05:23:32 +0000 UTC]

But that's not the only smile we see, though. I mean, Zelda's bright grin when she spins around in the opening animation is a lot different than the small smile we see from her on the bird flight (with her eyebrows making the expression look a bit more sentimental), or the flirtatious smile we see when she pushes herself right up into Link's face. At least, to me, they look very different. However, I'm a creative writing major, not an animation major, so maybe that's why I'm not noticing how different they COULD be. xD

But yeah, WW was definitely special in the expressions regard, because as you said, they purposely made it to be more like anime/cartoony (which is why the 4Koma worked so well with it).

But as for a touch of humanity . . . I guess it depends which direction you want to go. For me, personally, I prefer more anime-style games, since I feel like when games get too realistic looking, it's creepy. While various expressions are great, I don't want to feel like I'm controlling people. It weirds me out, and it's for that reason that I could not play Final Fantasy XIII. Final Fantasy has been getting more and more realistic as the years go on, but as a result I cannot play their games. It jumps straight into Uncanny Valley territory. Again, it's all just personal preference, but XIII actually made me feel nauseous with how realistic the character models seemed, which is just an issue in my life.

. . . and kind of off-topic, so sorry about that. xD I can be a bit ADD sometimes.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, I agree with you that there are many different kinds of happy/sad/etc., and I also agree that games that don't have an emotional connection just aren't as great. I admit, I never finished Twilight Princess because of this. It made me sad, because I LOVE wolves, but I felt like the game lacked the emotion that Majora's Mask and Wind Waker had before it. The graphics were gorgeous, but the story lacked emotional depth. I didn't care, or feel like I had reason to character. The characters did not make me care, and the fact that all of them were stoic save Midna and sometimes wolf!Link just did not help matters any.

But I feel like Skyward Sword is going to be a large improvement on that area. I guess we'll just have to wait and see, but you never know! You might end up being pleasantly surprised. (Or perhaps I'll be the one eating my words; it's hard to say for certain right now. xD)

As a final note, I do agree with you that Wii U will probably improve on this. While I still hope they don't go back to TP style (which, again, while gorgeous, just lacked emotional depth to me), the Wii is definitely not stellar graphics wise, and so they are limited. Don't get me wrong, I typically don't care about graphics as long as they're not uber realistic, but the Wii is definitely not a 360 or PS3 graphics-wise.

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Mudora In reply to Scrawlers [2011-10-04 05:36:15 +0000 UTC]

That's another thing we need less of. Realism. Not that it's bad or good in the long run, but I certainly don't think it has to leave character emotion in the dust. My main thins is that I want to see people's faces MOVE. I NEVER see this ANYWHERE. T_T It doesn't have to be realistic to do this, and sadly I don't ever know if video games will ever get the budget to do that... who knows.

Even so, I know SS will blow me away. I already love the style and the graphics (two different things, I'm sure you know). And honestly, the expression argument is a little, but... but big thing, I guess. We'd get so much more expression into them if we made their cheeks bulge out when they smiled... the flesh around their eyes squint when angry... pull that muscle around.

Either way, ugh. I could talk forever on this. XD

As far as uncanny valley goes, I KNOW EXACTLY HOW YOU FEEL. I think extreme realism takes the imagination out of things... but unfortunately that's what the 20 to 30 year old demographic wants. It's what sells. Which really, REALLY, sucks because if that's all we give them, they can't be introduced to other things.

And we just opened a whole new can of worms.

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AgeofZero In reply to Mudora [2011-10-04 19:05:00 +0000 UTC]

I'm in a minority then when I say that I like whatever is handed over from video games as long as the story is enjoyable. That's just sad. RPGs should probably work more on the story than the graphics.

On another note, this conversation is interesting in that I agree with both of you, though I never noticed a lack of emotion in Twilight Princess. I get so along for the ride that what they're expressing works perfectly fine with how the story is going. I want voices more than anything!

And also, realism. I'm playing Final Fantasy XIII, and it's not uncanny for me at all. Rather, having them there feels like I'm watching things unfold like a movie. By the time I'm given control of the character, I'm busy digesting the story. I think. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO EXPLAIN, I JUST GET SO INTO MY VIDEO GAMES AND I DON'T HAVE CONCERNS THAT OTHER PEOPLE DO WHILE I'M PLAYING.
Which, in retrospect, is kinda bad since I'm going into the business of working on games and their art. So, uh, I'll try and make more expressive faces in games I work on for you guys I guess. Within reason, but I'll try?

/butts in, sorry

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Mudora In reply to AgeofZero [2011-10-04 19:44:52 +0000 UTC]

Final Fantasy has gotten to the point where they should just make movies rather than games. Sure, the story was cool but was way over the top, and the voice acting just plain hurt. This is my opinion, though, so if you really like the game, don't let me stop you... but that game was so linear and dull that I really couldn't get that far into it and I just decided to watch my brother play while I worked on other things.

Games should not be movies. Games need to be games. But, that doesn't mean we can't have real quality in those cut scenes we get to watch.

And voices? Voices are only one half of something. Without expression, words mean nothing and become just as dull as the characters.

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AgeofZero In reply to Mudora [2011-10-05 01:35:57 +0000 UTC]

I agree with you. Final Fantasy XII is more like a movie, so I've been enjoying it as a movie. But since I'm kinda relaxed about the whole situation, I've been enjoying it period. The VA didn't hurt for me thus far. Some parts I find a little lame, but it's not killing me like watching Sailor Moon R again was killing me.
BUT LIKE I SAID, I'M JUST TOO CHILL ABOUT THIS.

I realize there are things I should just regret having to deal with in games I like. At the same time, I'm busy enjoying the games and their stories like someone who really wants to join the world the characters are living in. Something like that.
I thought the expressions in Twilight Princess were good. Had Nintendo pushed the envelope a little more, the expressions could have been great. It's probably a status quo thing in that people buy their product and buy a lot of it, so they don't have to change much. I think it's sad, but I'm not doing anything to change that opinion.

Though I have a huge problem with SquareEnix since they became SquareEnix. I have not liked a lot of choices they've been making with their products. I'm also kinda butthurt over Kingdom Hearts being the last thing Squaresoft made before the merge. But that's another can of worms, and it's not the point.

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Mudora In reply to Mudora [2011-10-04 04:43:30 +0000 UTC]

IGNORE THE HORRENDOUS TYPO AT THE END *looks tragic*

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Mudora In reply to Mellz117 [2011-10-04 03:21:23 +0000 UTC]

LOL nah. In fact, why don't I go do this right now? Seriously. XD

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Mellz117 In reply to Mudora [2011-10-04 03:49:41 +0000 UTC]

omg thank you! You're awesome!

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