Nilopher In reply to ??? [2012-07-26 04:48:56 +0000 UTC]

~~“Hell is never a topic one should speak about lightly, and the state of many souls depends on a proper understanding of both God's love but also His justice."~~

I agree.

~~“Just doesn't seem to line up with Scripture.”~~

Those are exactly my thoughts regarding an eternal hell.

~~“If hell is like an "unquenchable flame" it seems as if it will last forever, or at least from our perspective.”~~

Yes, I believe ‘hell’ will burn with an unquenchable flame, an eternal fire. A fire that cannot be put out. Just like Sodom and Gomorrah did.

The eternal fire burns as long as there’s something to burn, the fire is eternal but the “materials” that are burning in it are not. So the eternal fire will stop burning when it finishes its mission. It will turn everything into ash (Malachi 4:1-3)

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TESM In reply to Nilopher [2012-07-26 05:13:11 +0000 UTC]

The eternal fire burns as long as there’s something to burn, the fire is eternal but the “materials” that are burning in it are not. So the eternal fire will stop burning when it finishes its mission. It will turn everything into ash (Malachi 4:1-3)

It still assumes that souls are not immortal, which would be strange since we are called to live with God forever.

But beyond this you should note that "life" and "death" in scripture have multiple meanings, a primary one meaning "life" = following God and "death" = straying from God.

Just as a a tree planted by the river, so too is the faithful who plants himself in God's way. But that's an image, not that the one who doesn't just *poof* doesn't exist any more. God creates man to live forever, how that man lives forever is his choice--in a sense.

Again, I think if you read very closely what "life" and "death" really mean in Scripture a lot more is clear. Many are called "dead" who are still alive because they forsake the words of Truth.

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ninJAVONTE In reply to ??? [2012-06-06 17:29:27 +0000 UTC]

....................

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Chimpso In reply to ??? [2012-05-30 11:44:11 +0000 UTC]

Response: [link]

Don't know what I'm planing to achieve with this, arguing with Christians and all.

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Nilopher In reply to Chimpso [2012-05-31 14:36:11 +0000 UTC]

My Reply to Response - Nilopher

~~A response to Nilopher's If God loves me why would He send me to hell?

Let me begin by saying that I am an atheist, I do not believe in god. Also, I am an an anti-theist. I despise religion, but not all religious people. I also enjoy swearing, and I understand that this response may be a little abusive. But if you're going to use my brash nature to invalidate my claims, well... You're an idiot .~~

Just an advice ^^. Most people tend to 'not listen' what other have to say, when they use a lot of foul language, insults, etc. They will hear you, but won’t be really listening. Some people won’t even take you seriously. So if you’re trying to get your points and opinions ‘across’ you might want to change a bit your tactic.

~~If God loves me why would He send me to hell?

A question I've seen and heard many times. Often used to justify a sin.

Or to show the immorality of your God, but whatever…~~

So now, God is immoral because He keeps His word. Interesting.
He loves us and rewards us accordingly with our actions.

~~People mistakenly seem to think that because Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient to clean our sins, we are forever saved regardless of what we do. His sacrifice wasn't meant to take away our sins so we could keep living a sinful life, walk away from His righteous ways and still somehow get to heaven. He sacrificed Himself for us to ensure that even if we sin, we can have the hope of being redeemed, of being forgiven and saved, if we accept our mistakes and ask forgiveness.

Sacrifice? Sacrifice? Bitch, please. Jesus dying on the cross was not a sacrifice. First of all, he rose three days later (and since he is also god, he knew this would happen), therefore he never did die anyway. Second, Jesus is god, therefore god sacrificed his human body (which he could just create again if he wanted) and used it to forgive our sins. Ok, cool.

Not. Why the need for a blood sacrifice? I wouldn't have wanted that. If it had happened, and someone said that my sins could be placed on that man about to be crucified, I would refuse. I think that a god who requires a sacrifice before forgiving us (as opposed to just saying "I forgive you") is not a good god. I want to break the contract I have with god right now regarding that matter.~~

The fact the He resurrected do not 'erases' the fact that He died.

We all have sinned (Romans 3:23) and “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” ~Romans 6:23

We had to die to pay the price, but if we died it was going to be final, why? Because we were trying to pay sin with sin, imperfection with imperfection. Our death was not going to be enough. You can’t clean a filthy floor with dirty rags, the stain will never leave, it may even get worse. You need something clean to take the stain away. That’s why we need Jesus.

The dying part was the easy part. He had to leave His perfect and sinless heaven to be born with a human body in a sinful world. He had to be ‘physically’ away from His Father to receive insults in this earth. He was tortured, hit, pierced, and neglected by the people He wanted to save, yet He paid our price. And He didn’t even have to do this. If that’s not a sacrifice for you, then our definitions of sacrifice are entirely different.

Once He died for us, we belonged to Him once again, instead to sin. (We are His by redemption, and creation). Now our deaths don't have to be eternal. We have a right -once more- to the 'life' that was ours in a beginning. But we have to choose it.

Christ volunteered to be in my place. You refuse it, but I don’t, and there’s plenty of other people that doesn’t refuse His sacrifice either. He knew that not everyone would want to believe in Him, yet He considered (and still consider) us worthy of the sacrifice.

~~Jesus' death was nothing but scapegoating. Our sins were thrown onto another and he was killed for them. This is evil, and not something a good god should do. To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens: "I can pay a debt for you if you are a friend. I may serve your time in prison for you if I loved you well enough. I may even take your place on the gallows. But I cannot absolve you of your responsibility."
Our sins were forgiven without the consultation of the people who we sinned against. Eg. I killed a man's wife, he want's justice for her, but instead all is forgiven because some guy died on a cross (apparently) for me. That is not justice, and that is definitely not good.~~

Our sins weren’t thrown onto another; He carried them because He wanted to. He could have said: “stop, I won’t do this anymore” and go back to His Father, but He chose to bear it until ‘It Was Finished’.

It is evil to pay the debt of someone that doesn’t have the assets to pay for it?

You should at least understand a religion you despise before you criticize it. Jesus didn’t die to absolve us from our responsibility. He died so we wouldn’t have a permanent death. We are dealing with a planet corroded by sin, a planet where everyday things around us get worse; we are dealing with the consequences of sin. How’s that for responsibility?

Also, if you had read my ‘article’ with an objective mind you would had understand that (I’ll use your example here). If you kill a man—even if all is forgiven because ‘some guy’ died on a cross— you will go to jail.

~~"He himself bore our sins" in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; "by his wounds you have been healed." ~1 Peter 2:24

Nowadays, people want to be saved, but they don't want to repent. Repentance is: "To change one's mind. A change of heart, that involves turning away from sin" (Ezekiel 14:6)

And you think that people can just do that? You think it's that easy for someone to just change their whole lifestyle for a belief system that has no evidence?~~

Changing a lifestyle is NOT easy, and will NEVER be easy. That’s why it’s an everyday and gradual process. Just like people who convert and accept Jesus, we Christians are in a constant spiritual growth.

Also, we believe because we have evidence/a reason. Even God tells us to be sure of what we believe. He encourage us to test all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21), to grow in knowledge and understanding, so we can “always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you” (1 Peter 3:15). Our faith is not blind.

"~~If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." ~ 1 John 1:9

Stop quoting your 2000 year old tome of desert fairy tales. It's getting annoying.~~

It doesn’t matter how you call it, the word of God will always be ‘truth’.

~~God wants us to repent, to change. (Acts 3:19).
We confess because we admit and acknowledge we are sinning, and we repent because we know we have to change our ways. And when we change our hearts and mind about sin, a change in behavior will naturally result.

True, but a change of behavior can also result from getting drunk, what's your point? I admit that I have sinned (well, I don't believe in sin, but most of the things I do are indeed "sins"), and if there was a god to repent to, I would seek his forgiveness. But once again, It would be totally wrong for this god to absolve me of my sin, as he would be taking away my personal responsibility.~~

Someone's behavior changes when they’re drunk, because they don’t have control over their body and brain reactions, the changes will occur even if they don’t want to.

Our behavior changes when we repent, because we want to.

Maybe you should check the difference of ‘forgive (u•nslch)’ and ‘absolve(u•etzdiqu)’. And see what they mean when they’re in the context of a sentence. [The bible uses different words that mean two entire different things] He forgives us, but we have to deal with the consequences of whatever choices we made, we are responsible for our choices. In this case He forgives us, but because we are born from sinful ‘parents’ [sin is like an hereditary disease] we have to deal with the consequences of that sin, just as the ‘first parents’ had to dealt with the immense responsibility of seeing and feeling how sin degraded their children, the earth, and even themselves, because of their actions.

~~But the desire to repent is a result of the goodness of God. (Romans 2:4), so without Him, we can't achieve anything (John 15:5). Don't try to change by your own strength, because you will fail and you'll be discouraged and disappointed. Pray and ask God for help and He will change your heart.

Been there, done that. Never received any reply. My inbox was empty. (0) New Messages. I used to pray, quite a lot actually. The only time it ever worked was when I prayed to win a raffle draw and won. But I was too busy celebrating to thank the old man upstairs (but God, if you do exist, thanks for that, Easter was great that year ). If there's no god to repent to (and there's not), then the forgiveness is in your mind. All you are doing is forgiving yourself.~~

I can forgive myself, but I can’t save myself. Jesus forgives us and saves us if we allow Him to. Here’s a nice devotional about prayers

There are three possible answers for our prayer: yes, no,& wait a little longer.

A quote from the devotional: “…minds and prayers can become so fixed upon a need that our gaze shifts away from Him. The Father may delay His answer until we refocus on Him. In other situations, God waits because the timing is not right for granting our request…”

~~I don't need to change, He accepts me as I am.

True.

You come to Jesus just as you are. Unclean, broken, scarred etc. He will accept you, because He loves you. But once you meet Him, you won't be the same anymore. He will renew your heart. You will be born again.

Cool! Now all I have to do is meet him…
Uh… Jesus? You there buddy?~~

Seek and you will find (Matthew 7:7), don’t expect to find anything if you’re not even looking seriously. If you look with the expectation of finding ‘nothing’ then even if He appeared right before you, you would dismiss it as ‘nothing’.

~~People seem to forget that if they truly accept Jesus, they will let Him work on their lives; they will have a desire of 'walking away from sin' and pursuing a godly life. If you accept Christ, but still want to leave your life unchanged, you're not actually accepting Him into your life and heart. You're just accepting the idea of believing in Him.

Once again, been there, done that. Used to love and accept Jesus, but it didn't stop me from "sinning." I always enjoyed sinning. Why did god have to create us with a natural inclination to sin? Damn you, god!~~

Believing in Jesus doesn’t stop us from sinning. Christianity doesn’t stop anyone from sinning. God will help us to overcome sin, but if we decide to sin anyways He won’t force us not to do it.

Read the bible. God didn’t create us with a sinful nature.

~~Believing in Jesus is not just 'knowing' He exists. Even devils believe (James 2:19) and they won't get to heaven. Believing in Jesus implies something much more than that.

Not even if the poor little imps repent? Awww…~~

They already had their chance to do so.

~~Believing means: to have faith, confidence, and trust. We must believe that He IS (Hebrews 11:6), He is the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty (Revelation 1:8) The great I AM (Exodus 3:14). He is all powerful and He can clean what's unclean, He can fix what's broken, and He can heal any wound.

I don't believe. And with faith (as defined by your desert tome) being belief in the unseen and the unknowable, I will never have faith. I never believe something without evidence to support it. If god wants me to be saved (remember, he loves me), he can reveal himself to me now and I will believe. He's got nothing to lose, right?~~

You don’t believe. Then why even bothering on reading, or commenting? Wouldn’t that be wasting your time?

Oh, you misinterpret scriptures. Faith and blind Faith is NOT, and will NEVER be the same. God expects from us Faith, not blind faith. He doesn’t want ‘mindless’ followers that doesn’t know why they believe in Him.

I’ve never seen God in person, but I ‘know/feel/see the results of’ the immensity of His power. Just as I’ve never seen gravity but I ‘know/feel/see the results of’ its power.
I believe and He has rewarded me with proof, there’s nothing ‘blind’ about that.

Yes, He loves you. What if He’s using this opportunity and this conversation to reach your heart? Will you let Him in?
Probably not.
Because you’re probably expecting a shiny apparition. But God works in different ways with different people. Because you’re expecting an apparition worthy of ‘Las Vega’s lights’ you’ll miss every subtle attempt of approach from His part.

Besides, are we ready to literally see Him or literally hear His voice? You’ll probably think you’re hallucinating or something, and will either doubt Him or dismiss Him as ‘nothing’.

~~When you get to know Jesus, you know the wonderful things He can do in your life. And you know He can change your life for the better and you'll want that change.

Belief in Jesus eventually turned me into a foul-mouthed, sinful atheist. Not that I'm complaining.

God wants us to go to Him (Matthew 11:28)

To quote Yurek from Black Hawk Down:

"Fuck you! Come to me!"

We go to Him because we are willing and interestedand then He reveals Himself to us. If He comes to us when we’re not interested, we’ll ignore Him. So that ‘....Come to me!’ style doesn’t really work that well.

~~"I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh." ~ Ezekiel 36:26

Uhh… No thanks, I already own a heart of flesh. And I think the act of removing it would inevitably cause my death… so, I'll pass.~~

Are you aware of metaphors? (I’m pretty sure you are)
Besides people with ‘literal’ heart transplants don’t die because their heart is ‘exchanged’.

~~It's not in my control

Our sinful nature hates everything that has to do with God and His perfect ways.

Yup, no argument here.~~

At least we agree on something.

~~We are in a constant fight. While we're trying to get closer to Him, our nature is trying to go the other way.

Nah, I'm not trying to get closer to him, because there's no evidence for his existence. So I'll just follow my nature (everything I have) for now.

You deny the evidence for His existence.

"For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish." ~ Galatians 5:17

Dafuq? Spirit? Flesh? What is this nonsense. I have no spirit, all I am is flesh. I don't have a spirit because everything my body does is proven to occur naturally. I am my body, I am not in it.~~

Once again, If you actually made the effort to understand the religion you want to criticize you would know what this verse meant by Spirit.

Spirit (pneuma/Ruach), also ‘breath of life’ (pneuma/Ruach). God is spirit (John 4:24) (pneuma/Ruach). He is life and the giver of life. We have a spiritual nature because God created us and a sinful nature because we were conceived in sin. These natures are contrary to one another.

~~We have to be able to control that sinful nature. How? Starving it.

I won't masturbate… I won't masturbate… I won't masturbate…
Oh, fuck it.

If we don't feed our nature with sinful actions, it won't have the strength to control us.

Sorta true I guess. If you commit yourself to only doing good the bad side of you will definitely fade. But It will never leave you…~~

A second thing we agree with.
It will never leave us (until God transforms us at the end 1 Corinthians 15:51-52), but it won’t have the ‘power’ to control us.

~~It's not our fault that we are born with a sinful nature,
What? Did you…
It's not our fault that we are born with a sinful nature,
o.0
It's not our fault that we are born with a sinful nature,
So, whose fault is it? God's? Adam and Eve's? Well, fuck both of them then, especially god, who allows me to be created full of sin. Why god? Why? ;(~~

"Choosing a sinful lifestyle just because we’re sinners it’s like choosing to drown because we don’t see the shore."

It is our fault if we choose to sin.

~~but we are responsible for the actions we take with it. We have to make a decision: to sin, or not to sin. We have to choose if we want to be saved or not.

Ok, sure. We have to make choices in our life. But these choices won't save us from hell, just a jail cell or a fine.~~

We make the choices then we attain to whatever are the consequences.

~~So the excuse of: "It's not my fault, why would He send me to hell for something I can't control?" is invalid! (and erroneous)

How? He's still sending us there isn't he?~~

It’s your fault if you don’t control your sinful nature.
That’s why babies that die before or right after they’re born are automatically saved. They had a sinful nature but never sinned. Or sinful nature doesn’t dictate where we’ll end up, our action and choices do.

~~You are not in control of how, when, where, etc. you're born, but only you have the control of choosing what you want to do with your life. You can take the wheel or let sin drive for you.

Yup, only I have control of my life. And I chose to be sinful because it's enjoyable. I don't let sin drive for me, sin is just a backseat driver. He tells me where all the best spots are around town for having a good time, and I gladly follow his directions. If he tells me to go somewhere I know is not safe, I promptly refuse. It hasn't done me wrong yet.~~

You drive to where ‘sin’ tells you to…just like a ‘chauffeur’ follows instructions from the ‘vehicle owner’. Sin is still in control.

~~"So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh" ~ Galatians 5:16

Once again, the flesh is all that exists, I can't believe people don't understand this yet.~~

I already talked about the spirit.

~~We can choose to walk in the Spirit. We can choose to let God change us, giving us a new spirit and a new heart. We can choose to accept His sacrifice and be dead to sin. (Romans 6:5-11). You have the control to make that choice.

Sin =Fun, Happy, Rebellious

God =
Eternal Praise
…and uh, that's it. After about 50 billion years of endlessly praising god in heaven I think I would get a little bored. At least hell won't be boring.~~

Sin = produces eternal death, pain, and suffering, it is a way to degrade ourselves.

God = eternal life, happiness, new knowledge etc..
Our definitions on ‘boring’ are probably not the same.

~~God doesn't take away our salvation; we give it up, with our actions.
People that get arrested often get angry and take grudges with the cops that imprisoned them. It's not the cop's fault. They're behind bars because they broke the law. They chose to give up their freedom. Likewise, it's not God's fault, it's ours. He did everything that was on His power so we could be saved (He did what we could not do); now it's our turn to accept that salvation.

So... god is a cop now?~~

Figure speech. A Comparison.

~~It is god's fault. God sends us to hell. If I die and meet god and he says, "You're going to hell." And I say, "I don't want to go," I have made my choice. If he sends me to hell anyways, then he is sending me there, not me.

If I kill a thousand people, am brought to trial, and am told (justly) that I am going to jail, and I say that I don't want to go, I did not send myself to jail.

If a mugger puts a gun to my head and tells me that he'll shoot If I don't give him my money, and I refuse, and he shoots me, I did not commit suicide.

God sends us to hell. The final choice is his and his alone.~~

If you don’t want to go to jail, follow the law, don’t kill people.
Did God press some buttons on a control remote to make you do all the stuff you did in your life? No. Then He is not responsible for the results of your actions.

If someone leaps off from a building and dies even if in mid air the person decided that he/she didn’t want to die. It is God’s fault that the person died? No. God didn’t push the person off the roof.

Earlier you talked about responsibility. Why don’t you apply it now? Or you ignore the term when it doesn’t benefices you?

~~The right question should be: why would I choose the lake of fire instead of a loving God?

What do you love more, your sins or God? God loves us and because of that, He will respect our decision. He won't force the gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8) on us.

My sins, because they make me happy.~~

Your choice.

This response was not detailed, because I don’t think you are really interested in what I have to say. That’s why this will be my last reply to you regarding this. However if one day you are genuinely interested you can note me and I’ll do what I can to help.

Thank you for reading the ‘article’ even if you probably consider it to be nonsense, and Have a nice day ^^

ps. (also... this 'comment' is long, but I hope it displays completely, so if you have problems seeing it, tell me)

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Chimpso In reply to Nilopher [2012-06-01 16:29:08 +0000 UTC]

Just an advice ^^. Most people tend to 'not listen' what other have to say, when they use a lot of foul language, insults, etc. They will hear you, but won’t be really listening. Some people won’t even take you seriously. So if you’re trying to get your points and opinions ‘across’ you might want to change a bit your tactic.

And to these people, I say man up, grow up and welcome to the internet. But I do understand your point. I don’t intend to follow this advice however.

So now, God is immoral because He keeps His word.

Yes.

He loves us and rewards us accordingly with our actions.

So if I am a good person all my life and devote all my time and energy to helping the poor and providing charity to others, yet I also hate religion and the idea of god, I will still be rewarded? I’m sorry, but the last time I checked, belief in god is essential to get your ticket into heaven stamped. And if you don’t believe, then you get a first class ticked to hell (literally).

The fact the He resurrected do not 'erases' the fact that He died.

Ok, fair enough. But since he was God, and knows everything before it happens, he knew he was going to come back to life anyway.

We all have sinned (Romans 3:23) and “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” ~Romans 6:23

Why is the wage for sin death? Why did god make it this way? What If I refuse god’s gift because I deem it to be unethical and not something I would feel right accepting? What is my alternative? Surely if this god loves me he wouldn’t just send me straight to hell.

We had to die to pay the price

Why? Why did god make is so? Out of all the punishments he could think of for finite, insignificant crimes, he picks eternal torture and death. This god loves me?

but if we died it was going to be final, why? Because we were trying to pay sin with sin, imperfection with imperfection. Our death was not going to be enough. You can’t clean a filthy floor with dirty rags, the stain will never leave, it may even get worse. You need something clean to take the stain away. That’s why we need Jesus.

Or, we could just have god say “I forgive you.” And skip the whole “Jesus dies on the cross” horror. Surely it is within god’s power to just forgive us without the need for a blood sacrifice? Why the hell was it necessary?

The dying part was the easy part. He had to leave His perfect and sinless heaven to be born with a human body in a sinful world.

Oh, for Christ sake. He’s GOD. Do you think the creator of the damn universe is afraid and disgusted to leave his beautiful heaven to visit the world that he created? God knows everything, he IS everything, so why is he disgusted with everything? And this whole human body thing is insignificant as well. Once again, he’s god. A human body is nothing to him. He’s created 7 Billion of them already.

He had to be ‘physically’ away from His Father to receive insults in this earth.

Jesus was not god’s son. He was a manifestation of God on earth (but god is the earth, as god is everything, so… uh…). But whatever, we’ll call him the son for the sake of argument.

He was tortured, hit, pierced, and neglected by the people He wanted to save, yet He paid our price. And He didn’t even have to do this. If that’s not a sacrifice for you, then our definitions of sacrifice are entirely different.

This: [link] . Says everything that needs to be said about the whole idea of sacrifice. To call Jesus’ death a sacrifice is absurd. Once again, that one video explains everything that I could explain about this issue, so instead of me going on an annoyed tirade about how it was not a sacrifice, you can watch that video instead.

Once He died for us,

…and rose again several days later, good as new…

we belonged to Him once again, instead to sin. (We are His by redemption, and creation).

Why. Was. A. Blood. Sacrifice. Needed.

Is god totally unable to say “I forgive,” without someone having to die? If he can, then why the hell doesn’t he?

Christ volunteered to be in my place.

You mean, god decided that he wanted to absolve the sin of the people on earth, so he decided to kill himself in human form to do it. What o.0? Jesus is god. Therefore, god talking to Jesus and asking him to die for us is basically god talking to himself. Is god schizophrenic? And what do you mean “To be in my place.” Had Christ not come along would we all be dead now? Why? Because god decided that he didn’t like sin so he wiped us all out? This makes absolutely zero fucking sense, and yes, I put that swear word there for a reason. Can’t wait to write my final conclusion to this comment.

You refuse it, but I don’t,

Good for you. I wouldn’t accept it even if I believed it had actually happened. I will not allow a man to die a needless death when god could just say a few words and make everything better instead. I would refuse. Both in protest and defiance.

and there’s plenty of other people that doesn’t refuse His sacrifice either.

And good for them too.

He knew that not everyone would want to believe in Him, yet He considered (and still consider) us worthy of the sacrifice.

A question just came to me. How the hell do you know all this? How do you know what god feels and wants?

But whatever, I’ll pretend you know your god 100%. If he saw the fucked up world today (which he did, as he could see into the future) and decided that it was worth killing someone to save it, then he is an idiot. That is not love, love is fixing the problems, not allowing them to go on and become worse.

Our sins weren’t thrown onto another; He carried them because He wanted to. He could have said: “stop, I won’t do this anymore” and go back to His Father, but He chose to bear it until ‘It Was Finished’.

Good for him. Too bad it didn’t seem to work (source: world today). And no, they were thrown onto another who died to have them absolved. Why did Jesus die? To absolve us of our sins. Therefore, when Jesus died (quotation marks?), our sins died too. So he died to remove them. This is scapegoating.

And once again, why are you treating God and Jesus as two different minds, they are both God. One is just god in human form. The whole trinity is just god playing games with himself and telling himself to do things. It makes no sense at all.

It is evil to pay the debt of someone that doesn’t have the assets to pay for it?

What debt did we have to pay? God created our debt, HE was unsatisfied with sin and wanted to kill us all because we were sinful. It’s sad really, all he had to day was say a few words and the whole Jesus debacle could have been avoided. Too bad he wanted to show off and put on a show by killing himself and darkening the sky. And it’s not like the world became any less sinful after Jesus’ death anyway.

You should at least understand a religion you despise before you criticize it. Jesus didn’t die to absolve us from our responsibility. He died so we wouldn’t have a permanent death.

That god decided we must face. God made the game, he made the rules. If I was in charge and I dearly loved all of the people in my game, I would not have them suffering in a fucked up world. I would say “enough is enough,” and stop it all in an instant. But god decided to procrastinate and have the whole “Jesus dying” nonsense, and then didn’t even fix the problems in the world anyway.

And I do understand Christianity. I am interpreting it from another viewpoint, one that treats god as a neutral player in the morality game instead of the default ultimate good who is always morally right. If you think that everything god says is morally right, then you have surrendered your morality and are a slave to a callous dictator. For example, if god told you to kill your own children, would you do it? Don’t say “God would never ask that,” let us just say that he did say that. Would you do it? I know that I wouldn’t. I would stick up my middle finger, tell god to go fuck himself and proudly roast in hell forever.

We are dealing with a planet corroded by sin, a planet where everyday things around us get worse; we are dealing with the consequences of sin. How’s that for responsibility?

And this is meant to be an argument for a loving god? This just shows what I’m trying to prove. If god was truly loving and truly cares for us all, this screwed up world would not be so screwed up. If we are dealing with the consequences of sin, we are doing so because god is allowing us to.

Also, if you had read my ‘article’ with an objective mind you would had understand that (I’ll use your example here). If you kill a man—even if all is forgiven because ‘some guy’ died on a cross— you will go to jail.

Will I? But all is forgiven. There is no condemnation, there is not lust for revenge or hope for justice. I am forgiven by the creator of all things, that sounds like the best get-out-of-jail-free card ever.

Changing a lifestyle is NOT easy, and will NEVER be easy. That’s why it’s an everyday and gradual process. Just like people who convert and accept Jesus, we Christians are in a constant spiritual growth.

And why would anyone choose to do this when it is insurmountably unlikely that it is even true?


Also, we believe because we have evidence/a reason. Even God tells us to be sure of what we believe. He encourage us to test all things (1 Thessalonians 5:21), to grow in knowledge and understanding, so we can “always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you” (1 Peter 3:15). Our faith is not blind.

Wait, you have a reason for believing? You mean, evidence? Cool! Let’s hear it! If you have evidence, then why call your belief “faith?” Faith by definition is belief in the unseen and unprovable. If you have proof, you don’t require faith. And also, you do know that 1 Peter 3:15 is what turned Matt Dillahaunty (the bald guy from the video I linked above), into an atheist. He decided to follow god’s command there and search for evidence of his god and religion. But of course, he found nothing.

It doesn’t matter how you call it, the word of God will always be ‘truth’.
This is an ignorant, stupid, presumptuous, illogical and sad statement. So, no matter what evidence I present you with, the word of god will always be the truth. Why? Because it just is!

No. If you really have this mindset, then I pity you. And consider you to be a fundamentalist who will always believe in the bible, no matter what evidence is presented to counter it. Please, tell me you are not one of these people.

Someone's behavior changes when they’re drunk, because they don’t have control over their body and brain reactions, the changes will occur even if they don’t want to.

Our behavior changes when we repent, because we want to.

Fair enough, in retrospect, I don’t know why I put that analogy there. I’ll grant you this.

Maybe you should check the difference of ‘forgive (u•nslch)’ and ‘absolve(u•etzdiqu)’. And see what they mean when they’re in the context of a sentence. [The bible uses different words that mean two entire different things] He forgives us, but we have to deal with the consequences of whatever choices we made, we are responsible for our choices. In this case He forgives us, but because we are born from sinful ‘parents’ [sin is like an hereditary disease] we have to deal with the consequences of that sin, just as the ‘first parents’ had to dealt with the immense responsibility of seeing and feeling how sin degraded their children, the earth, and even themselves, because of their actions.

Once again, your all-loving sky genie can end all of these problems in less than a second. So why doesn’t he? Why is sin such a disease. Why did he create sin (he created everything, remember?), why did he create the devil, why did he create all this other bad crap. Why doesn’t he just make it all go away?

I can forgive myself, but I can’t save myself. Jesus forgives us and saves us if we allow Him to. Here’s a nice devotional about prayers

There are three possible answers for our prayer: yes, no,& wait a little longer.

It’s funny how this “waiting for god to respond” thing works. “God, please save my daughter, she is fighting for he life with cancer, please god, if you love me, show grace and mercy to her and allow her to live and be loved by us, she is not ready to die yet.”

God: …

Two outcomes:

Daughter dies: Oh well, this is just part of God’s plan.
(Not to mention the fact that this phase of the plan will cause great suffering to those affected by the death, but whatever, praise the all-loving god!)

Daughter lives (either by sheer chance or by medical intervention): OMFG! MIRACLE!!! PRAISE JESUS!!!

There is no “waiting” in this situation. God has to make a choice, save the life of the daughter, or not. There is no “I’ll answer later” option. And like I show above, whatever happens, people will still never blame god. I think we should start blaming god a little bit more instead of treating him as some infallible and undefinable genius (as such, I approach the religion far more objectively than you do).

A quote from the devotional: “…minds and prayers can become so fixed upon a need that our gaze shifts away from Him. The Father may delay His answer until we refocus on Him. In other situations, God waits because the timing is not right for granting our request…”

Fuck him. If I’m praying for something, I’m begging him to give something to me, I’m not trying to focus on him, I’m focusing on myself. As for the whole timing nonsense, this is subjective. The family of the dead daughter wanted her saved NOW, not later. And by not saving her, god caused great suffering to befall that family. This is not love.

Seek and you will find (Matthew 7:7), don’t expect to find anything if you’re not even looking seriously. If you look with the expectation of finding ‘nothing’ then even if He appeared right before you, you would dismiss it as ‘nothing’.

Just so you all know, I’m still waiting…

And no, if an apparition appeared to me and proved itself beyond a shadow of doubt to be real (this would of course involve me inviting other people into the room to ensure I’m not hallucinating, as well as calling a few scientists to study it and ensure it’s not some form of deception). Then I would believe. Like I said, still waiting.

Believing in Jesus doesn’t stop us from sinning. Christianity doesn’t stop anyone from sinning. God will help us to overcome sin, but if we decide to sin anyways He won’t force us not to do it.

Then he is allowing us to burn in hell for all eternity by not providing enough proof of his existence so that people will believe. Obviously god can see that the bible is not treated as reliable proof anymore, so wouldn’t he, you know, give us some other proof. Instead it just seems as if he is sitting up there in heaven saying “I’ve given you enough, believe or roast.”

Read the bible. God didn’t create us with a sinful nature.

Yes he did, because he knew our lives before they began. And he saw that we were going to become sinners. Even if I was to grant that he didn’t create us with a sinful nature, he still allows us to live with it.

They already had their chance to do so.
C’mon Mr All-loving god, give them another chance.

(No? Asshole.)

You don’t believe. Then why even bothering on reading, or commenting? Wouldn’t that be wasting your time?

Because I want to explain to you and others why what you believe in is bullshit. (no offence). And I enjoy doing this by the way, fun is another motivator.

Oh, you misinterpret scriptures. Faith and blind Faith is NOT, and will NEVER be the same. God expects from us Faith, not blind faith. He doesn’t want ‘mindless’ followers that doesn’t know why they believe in Him.

And why do you believe in him? You have evidence? Then you don’t need faith. And also, let’s hear your evidence. In addition to this, we are already mindless followers, because we are created exactly how he wanted us to be created (remember, he knew our lives before we began, and when he created us, he saw that it was “good”). We are simply fulfilling our pre-defined destiny by living our lives.

I’ve never seen God in person, but I ‘know/feel/see the results of’ the immensity of His power

All I see is a fucked up world full of idiots. Perhaps you see differently however.

Just as I’ve never seen gravity but I ‘know/feel/see the results of’ its power.

Yeah, but gravity fulfils all of its parameters. God fails to live up to the “all-loving” standard and the “evident” standard.

I believe and He has rewarded me with proof, there’s nothing ‘blind’ about that.

Cool. Let’s hear it.

Yes, He loves you. What if He’s using this opportunity and this conversation to reach your heart? Will you let Him in?
Probably not.

No, because he is a sadistic fuck, and I would never love such a filthy thing. Even if I wanted to, I would not be able to bring myself to do so.

However, even though I won’t worship him, I will believe that he exists.

Because you’re probably expecting a shiny apparition. But God works in different ways with different people. Because you’re expecting an apparition worthy of ‘Las Vega’s lights’ you’ll miss every subtle attempt of approach from His part.

Then why doesn’t he work the way I want him to work, just for me? Why the hell does he need to be subtle? He’s God! An all-loving creator would not be subtle. He would care for us in ways that we could understand instead of being so damn mysterious. Stop playing with us god, you damn troll!

Besides, are we ready to literally see Him or literally hear His voice? You’ll probably think you’re hallucinating or something, and will either doubt Him or dismiss Him as ‘nothing’.

Already dealt with this above.

We go to Him because we are willing and interestedand then He reveals Himself to us. If He comes to us when we’re not interested, we’ll ignore Him. So that ‘....Come to me!’ style doesn’t really work that well.

Uhh… actually, I am interested. I want to know the answer too you know.

Are you aware of metaphors? (I’m pretty sure you are)
Besides people with ‘literal’ heart transplants don’t die because their heart is ‘exchanged’

*sigh* Yes, I was just taking the piss.

At least we agree on something.

Yeah. I’m not here for the sole purpose of disagreeing with you.

You deny the evidence for His existence.

Fuck off.  Those were the first two words that came into my head the first time I read this line. And believe it or not, I find this the most absurd and pathetic statement that you have made. What evidence? WHAT EVIDENCE? Let’s hear it. Every piece of evidence that I turn down I turn down for a reason. I don’t just deny it.

Once again, If you actually made the effort to understand the religion you want to criticize you would know what this verse meant by Spirit.

Spirit (pneuma/Ruach), also ‘breath of life’ (pneuma/Ruach). God is spirit (John 4:24) (pneuma/Ruach). He is life and the giver of life. We have a spiritual nature because God created us and a sinful nature because we were conceived in sin. These natures are contrary to one another.

So, we have a spirit? As in, a part of us that lives on after our physical bodies (all that we have and are), die. Bullshit. Prove it.


A second thing we agree with.
It will never leave us (until God transforms us at the end 1 Corinthians 15:51-52), but it won’t have the ‘power’ to control us.

No, it’ll still have some power, after all, no one never sins, correct?


"Choosing a sinful lifestyle just because we’re sinners it’s like choosing to drown because we don’t see the shore."

It is our fault if we choose to sin.

The whole idea of the response I gave there was to show a contradiction in what you are saying. You say it is our fault that we sin, yet you claim that it is not our fault that we are born with a natural inclination to sin. Once again, I ask whose fault it is.

We make the choices then we attain to whatever are the consequences.

Uhh… yeah, true. But that has nothing to do with what I was trying to say. I was trying to say that when we do no evil, we are not saving ourselves from hell, but from jail and condemnation by other people.

It’s your fault if you don’t control your sinful nature.
That’s why babies that die before or right after they’re born are automatically saved. They had a sinful nature but never sinned. Or sinful nature doesn’t dictate where we’ll end up, our action and choices do.

If god didn’t want me to sin, he could have chosen not to call my life “good” when he created it (after seeing how it would turn out). He could also remove the primary thing that motivates my sin, my sinful nature.

Another question. When the babies go to heaven, do they go as babies or do they automatically grow up. Do that still have the intelligence of babies of do they suddenly become adults. If I die a decrepit old man, will I have to sty as one for all of eternity, or will I get a new body. So many questions (and I wonder if you will be stupid enough to say that you have the answers)…

You don’t know where we’re going after we die. Why? Because I don’t know, and neither does anyone else. You don’t possess some knowledge that I don’t here; we’ve both done the research, and come to different conclusions. One of us is wrong, and I’m explaining why it is you.


You drive to where ‘sin’ tells you to…just like a ‘chauffeur’ follows instructions from the ‘vehicle owner’. Sin is still in control.

You missed the point of the analogy (and it was a damn beautiful one if I do say so myself, I’m going to write it down, formalise it and use it as my own personal quote. And to think I just made it up on the spot ). The point is that sin tells me where to go, but I decide if I want to go to where It tells me to go. (remember, sin is not always bad, masturbation Is apparently a sin…) If sin tells me to do something simple and trivial that isn’t going to cause a detriment to people’s lives (this varies, but I’ll just be general), I’ll do it. If sin tells me to rob a store to get money, I won’t.

I already talked about the spirit.

And I already responded.

Sin = produces eternal death, pain, and suffering, it is a way to degrade ourselves.

Depends on what you call sin. And it only produces these things because god decided that it should.

God = eternal life, happiness, new knowledge etc..

Subjective good. I don’t want eternal life, the mere prospect terrifies me. And I already have happiness and knowledge. And I aim to have more as I progress.

Our definitions on ‘boring’ are probably not the same.

Quite. Too bad god doesn’t cater to different people when it comes to the afterlife.

Figure speech. A Comparison.

Fair enough.

If you don’t want to go to jail, follow the law, don’t kill people.

But I’m still not sending myself to jail, if I kill people, I don’t get to make that choice, it is made for me.

Did God press some buttons on a control remote to make you do all the stuff you did in your life? No. Then He is not responsible for the results of your actions.

Yes. He saw everything that would happen in our lives from the day we were born to the day we died and was satisfied with it. He then pressed a button labelled “create”. He is responsible for my actions, he created me the way he wanted me to be.


If someone leaps off from a building and dies even if in mid air the person decided that he/she didn’t want to die. It is God’s fault that the person died? No. God didn’t push the person off the roof.

But god loves them. Why didn’t he decide to save them? Did he say “Lol, too late” and let them die? Then he’s an ass.

Earlier you talked about responsibility. Why don’t you apply it now? Or you ignore the term when it doesn’t benefices you?

What do you mean, how does this relate to your above points? I may be responsible for what I do, but in the end, god makes the rules. He makes the game, all I’m doing is following.

Your choice.

Not really, because I’m going to burn in lava for all eternity for making it, but whatever.

This response was not detailed, because I don’t think you are really interested in what I have to say.

Nonsense, of course I am.

That’s why this will be my last reply to you regarding this.

Most unfortunate (copout?). I was hoping to see your response to this. However, I’ll leave you an anyone who reads this with several questions to consider:


1. Is it possible for god to just forgive, without the need for a blood sacrifice?
2. Does god really love us if he sees how I lives would turn out, yet still decides to create us?
3. Can you view god from an objective moral viewpoint, with him not being regarded as the ultimate good, and judge him appropriately?

And of course, the obvious question

Does he even exist?

Anyways, it’s 3am, this took two hours, I am annoyed, my back and hands are killing me, and I am tired.

Going to bed. Pray for me, maybe god will decide to say “yes” this time instead of “later”.

Once again, this video: [link]

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Nilopher In reply to Chimpso [2012-06-02 03:58:21 +0000 UTC]

I said I was not going to reply, but there are some points here I couldn’t ignore.

I also consider this to be fun. Plus I get to know other’s opinions on the matter and it strengthens my beliefs. ^^

I’m making other articles about Jesus’ death, the blood sacrifice, and other topics that are related to some things in your reply. If I answer you here—to me—the point of making an article gets lost. So if you’re really interested in reading what I think I about it/ and what the bible says, you need to be real patient lol because I always take my time posting this kind of stuff.

The points I couldn’t ignore: (also take notice when I say I believe and We believe, sometimes I'm referring to Christians in general, others I'm referring to myself)

~~A question just came to me. How the hell do you know all this? How do you know what god feels and wants?~~

God gave us "His Word" so we could know Him. All the things I’m telling you are there.

~~Jesus was not god’s son. He was a manifestation of God on earth~~

We believe in a Triune God. Three co-equal and co-eternal "distinct persons" in the Godhead, with hierarchy: God: the Father, God: the Son, and God: the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 3:16-17)

The name Eloahim is plural. (Genesis 1:26–27)

~~but god is the earth, as god is everything, so… uh…~~

We are NOT Pantheists.

~~Another question. When the babies go to heaven, do they go as babies or do they automatically grow up. Do that still have the intelligence of babies of do they suddenly become adults. If i die a decrepit old man, will i have to sty as one for all of eternity, or will i get a new body. So many questions (and i wonder if you will be stupid enough to say that you have the answers)…~~

This question is directed to the wrong person. (My belief in this differs from other Christians) This is what I believe: When babies die, they die. They don’t go to heaven immediately. No one does until 'at the end’ Jesus comes to get us. I believe the ‘saved’ will be like ‘in the beginning’ like Adam and Eve. Young adults, fully mature. Perfect.

~~You don’t know where we’re going after we die. Why? Because I don’t know, and neither does anyone else.~~

You’re not in my mind, so you shouldn’t tell me what I know or don’t know.

~~So, we have a spirit? As in, a part of us that lives on after our physical bodies (all that we have and are), die. Bullshit. Prove it.~~

I can see you’re mixing spirit with the concept of soul.

I can’t 'prove' you anything here. Because I don’t believe we have a soul that lives on after we die. Here’s what I believe --> What happens when we die

I believe when we die, every single part of us dies with us. But unlike you I believe that the saved will be resurrected and transformed in Jesus’ second coming.

PS. (It's not copout. I prefer to do the articles so others can see them. Not everyone can see these replies, some people are more interested in reading the article than reading the replies)

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Chimpso In reply to Nilopher [2012-07-10 16:10:26 +0000 UTC]

First of all, I would like to apologies for two things.

The first is that I haven't replied to you for over a month. I just didn't feel like debating on DA for a while, like I said, I do this for fun. When it stops becoming fun, I stop doing it.

The second is that I would like to apologize for the way I've treated you here. I feel as If I have not showed you enough respect for the time you have put into replying to me. I appreciate the fact that you take the time to actually respond to my points (as opposed to someone else I know...Yes, you know who you are), and just wanted to apologize for my uncouth behavior earlier, you clearly did not deserve it. (No, I have not been forced to write this under duress, trust me ).

I’m making other articles about Jesus’ death, the blood sacrifice, and other topics that are related to some things in your reply. If I answer you here—to me—the point of making an article gets lost. So if you’re really interested in reading what I think I about it/ and what the bible says, you need to be real patient lol because I always take my time posting this kind of stuff.

Chimpso is waiting . Don't worry, he'll be nice this time .


God gave us "His Word" so we could know Him. All the things I’m telling you are there.

Or perhaps it is just a collection of ancient writings from the infancy of our species where science and modern medicine didn't exist and superstition was rampant. How do you know that this book is the word of your god? Because it says so?

We believe in a Triune God. Three co-equal and co-eternal "distinct persons" in the Godhead, with hierarchy: God: the Father, God: the Son, and God: the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 3:16-17)

The name Eloahim is plural. (Genesis 1:26–27)

Sorry, but I have to do this, that sounded like a series of movies to me:

God: The Father

God - Part 2: The Son

God - Part 3: The Spirit

How original, eh?

Anyways, enough of my pathetic attempts at humor. So, there is a hierarchy of three entities in godland, so do they all operate independently from each other, or are they all following orders?

This is what am trying to say, if "The Son" is a part of God, then isn't god still sending himself on a suicide mission to impress himself and allow himself to forgive humanity? I don't quite understand this, and It all sounds frankly ridiculous to me.

We are NOT Pantheists.

Yes, I understand this. But every chaplain/preacher/idiot that I run into seems to agree with the fact that god is intrinsically a part of everything on earth. Perhaps I am misinformed.

This question is directed to the wrong person. (My belief in this differs from other Christians) This is what I believe: When babies die, they die. They don’t go to heaven immediately. No one does until 'at the end’ Jesus comes to get us. I believe the ‘saved’ will be like ‘in the beginning’ like Adam and Eve. Young adults, fully mature. Perfect.

Yeah, perfect. What a dream world, too bad there is not a single piece of evidence to support it.

What you believe is inconsequential. Reality doesn't conform to anyone's beliefs, not yours, not mine. We have to allow our beliefs to conform with reality, by examining the evidence we are provided with and making a sound judgment, detached from emotion or happy dreams.


You’re not in my mind, so you shouldn’t tell me what I know or don’t know.

Actually, I should. Reminding people that they do not posses this "special knowledge" is an important step in preventing the spread of superstition.

You don't know if aliens exist. You have never seen them.

You don't know what I look like. You've never seen me.

You don't know what happens after we die... because you haven't been dead.

I can see you’re mixing spirit with the concept of soul.

I can’t 'prove' you anything here. Because I don’t believe we have a soul that lives on after we die. Here’s what I believe --> What happens when we die

I believe when we die, every single part of us dies with us. But unlike you I believe that the saved will be resurrected and transformed in Jesus’ second coming.


I understand that you believe these things, but they are not supported by evidence or fact. If you want people to believe they will be resurrected then you need to provide them with evidence. Once again, I give you the opportunity to do so.

(from linked deviation) We don't have souls, we are souls.

So soul is simply a synonym for the body? Or is it a word that describes the fused state of the "body" and the "spirit"?

I have to quote Hitchens here: We don't have bodies, we are bodies. All the evidence on the table supports this statement, no evidence supports the concept of a soul, weather it be your definition or others definitions.

PS. (It's not copout. I prefer to do the articles so others can see them. Not everyone can see these replies, some people are more interested in reading the article than reading the replies)

Fair enough I suppose. I see what you mean.

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Nilopher In reply to Chimpso [2012-07-11 05:24:30 +0000 UTC]

^^ no worries

~~"Chimpso is waiting"~~

Sorry the wait has to be so long. I don’t like to rush this kind of things. Yesterday I finished one article, but I’m still revising it.

~~“Or perhaps it is just a collection of ancient writings from the infancy of our species where science and modern medicine didn't exist and superstition was rampant. How do you know that this book is the word of your god? Because it says so?”~~

Archeological evidence serves as proof for some historical records in the bible. There is also scientific evidence [but we both have the same evidence, but because our foundations are different, we reach different conclusions]. So far God hasn’t let me down. I’ve been a witness of His power because of some personal experiences. And because of that and other things I believe the Bible is the word of God, and that it is true.

~~“if“"The Son" is a part of God, then isn't god still sending himself on a suicide mission to impress himself and allow himself to forgive humanity?”~~

The son is not ‘a part of’ God, The Son is God. The father is God. And The Holy Spirit is God. As I mentioned before they are: “Three co-equal and co-eternal "distinct persons"”. One God; three persons who are each called God.

Is just like the biblical concept of marriage. In the bible, marriage couples are described as one flesh (Matthew 19:6, Mark 10:8, 1 Corinthians 6:16). There are no longer two single entities (two individuals), but now there is one entity (a married couple).

“Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be ONE FLESH.” ~Genesis 2:24

The Godhead is one entity of three persons.

If you are interested in studying this topic further, these links can help:
The trinity
God is triune
Is the trinity three different Gods?


~~“Yes, I understand this. But every chaplain/preacher/idiot that I run into seems to agree with the fact that god is intrinsically a part of everything on earth. Perhaps I am misinformed.~~”

If they are Christian preachers, they are misinformed, because pantheism is not supported by the bible.

A quote I found that practically sums up why it’s not biblical: “God, in the Bible forbids the worship of idols, angels, celestial objects, items in nature, etc. If pantheism were true, it would not be wrong to worship such an object, because that object would, in fact, be God.”

~~“Yeah, perfect. What a dream world, too bad there is not a single piece of evidence to support it.

What you believe is inconsequential. Reality doesn't conform to anyone's beliefs, not yours, not mine. We have to allow our beliefs to conform with reality, by examining the evidence we are provided with and making a sound judgment, detached from emotion or happy dreams.”~~

That’s why I wrote “This is what I believe”. I think it is the truth and that it will be a reality, but I am aware others think/feel that way about their beliefs too. At the end we will all know for sure.

I think this is the truth, because is what God says and promises us. Just like when He said to Abram to kill His only child, Abram trusted God and followed His instructions. Why? Because He knew that it was the same God that said: “Thou shalt not kill” (Exodus 20:13), and He knew that God did not change, and God had promised him number of descendants like the stars and sand (Genesis 15), and God always followed through with His promises. Abram knew God couldn’t contradict Himself, so having this knowledge of the character of God, and having experienced His power before, by faith (not blind faith, but faith based of what He knew and experienced) he followed God’s instructions knowing He would provide. God didn’t let Abram kill Isaac, and He provided them with a lamb. (Genesis 22). Also, Isaac didn’t freak out with his father’s and God’s request because he also had faith God would provide.

But I know this is nonsense for someone that doesn’t believe in my God.

~~“I understand that you believe these things, but they are not supported by evidence or fact. If you want people to believe they will be resurrected then you need to provide them with evidence. Once again, I give you the opportunity to do so.”~~

--Elijah resurrected the son of Zarephath's widow(1 Kings 17:17-24)
--Elisha resurrected the son of the Shunammite woman (2 Kings 4:35)
--Jesus resurrected the widow's son at Nain (Luke 7:13-15)
--Jesus raised Jairus' daughter from the dead (Matthew 9:25)
--Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead (John 11:43-44)
--Christ's resurrection (Matthew 28:5-7) – After His resurrection He has eternal life, not only because He is God, but because He is the ‘firstfruit’ of those who will be resurrected at His second coming. (1 Corinthians 15:21-23)

I could go on, the problem is: you don’t believe the bible contains historical facts.

To me“the reliability of the Bible as a historical document has been demonstrated over and over. Historians and archaeologists continually affirm the accuracy of the Bible in matters of history.” Either by existing biblical places, cities(maybe in ruins), tombs, people, prophesies fulfilled or ancient historical and secular writings that mention biblical events.

~~“So soul is simply a synonym for the body?”~~

Yes. Body is one of the synonyms for soul.

That’s why the word “soul” (Nephesh) is sometimes translated to “person” (Leviticus 23:30, numbers 35:15), to dead “body” or “dead person” (Leviticus 21:11, numbers 5:2).

Body + life = a living soul (a living person) body – life = dead soul (dead person).

At the end we don’t agree with each other’s beliefs, but at least we try to understand them ^^

Also thank you for reading my replies… I know they can be long

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Verixas92 In reply to Chimpso [2012-05-30 16:50:49 +0000 UTC]

Neither do I, you might as well give up. And that response, btw...you do not want my honest opinion on it.

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Chimpso In reply to Verixas92 [2012-05-30 22:00:04 +0000 UTC]

Acually, I do sir.

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Verixas92 In reply to Chimpso [2012-06-01 10:10:33 +0000 UTC]

Put it this way-

IF you wrote that in a philosophy exam, you'd get a big, fat, well-deserved F.

Scratch that, you'd get an E-F for Epic Fail.

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Chimpso In reply to Verixas92 [2012-06-01 10:42:42 +0000 UTC]

I already explained to that what I wrote was not a philosophical argument. Why do you continue to think of it as such? It was a casual response in which I made several points (which you have utterly failed to rebut). Like I said, if you want to talk philosophy, then respond to my previous refutation to your god is necessary deviation.

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Verixas92 In reply to Chimpso [2012-06-01 10:45:05 +0000 UTC]

If it was not a philosophical argument, then why did you categorize it as "philosophy"? Makes no sense whatsoever. The reason I have "failed" to rebut your points, is because I answered to them using LOGIC, REASON and PHILOSOPHY. But, since you obviously don't care about those thing,s it's not surprising you say they "failed".

Oh btw, if you look up, you'll see that =Nilopher has responded to you. You going to respond to that?

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Chimpso In reply to Verixas92 [2012-06-01 11:51:36 +0000 UTC]

I'm on an iPhone at the moment, and have been out all day. I will respond in time.

I tagged it as "Philosophy" as it was the only category that I could find to fit it in. Deviantart's categories are very general, and it's and it's hard to find one that fit's what you write, but I won't make the mistake of categorizing it as philosophy again (oh look, I just conceded a point to you, yay! :iconfluttershyyayplz").

How dare you state that I don't care about Logic, reason or philosophy. You have already debated philosophically with me (still awaiting a response by the way) and know that I am capable of doing it. I just don't devote my who life to something like philosophy, It raises too many questions and doesn't provide enough answers. This is where science and experimentation come in to help. Not to say that asking questions is bad, but is seems that it's all that philosophy does.

I wanted to respond to Nilopher's Emotional appeal to people with an emotional response of my own. You still haven't stated why I'm wrong yet (yes, I know, I'll respond to Nilopher soon).

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Verixas92 In reply to Chimpso [2012-06-01 17:59:42 +0000 UTC]

Nilopher's response was not emotional. And I'm not bothering to respond to you, because...there's really no point is there?

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Chimpso In reply to Verixas92 [2012-07-03 10:07:27 +0000 UTC]

I'm back (oh no...)

Great excuse making their friend, all of your responses so far that can actually be considered responses I have simply rebutted (still waiting for that reply...). All of your other "responses" have just been attacks on my methods instead of my points.

If it makes you feel better, then don't respond. I'm personally sick of reminding you that you don't counter someone's points by pointing out (supposed) "flaws" in their methodology.

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WhisperingFantasies In reply to ??? [2012-05-30 07:04:58 +0000 UTC]

Amen, I read the whole thing and agree with it. : ) I'll try applying it in my own life and witnessing this message to others. c:

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Nilopher In reply to WhisperingFantasies [2012-05-31 14:48:43 +0000 UTC]

God bless!

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WhisperingFantasies In reply to Nilopher [2012-05-31 23:04:29 +0000 UTC]

Thanks!

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Caz-Art In reply to ??? [2012-05-30 00:49:03 +0000 UTC]

As I was reading the comments, the verse from 1 Corinthians 2:14 came to mind. It says "The man without the spirit does not accept the things that come from the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them. because they are spiritually discerned". People without the Holy Spirit can't grasp the concept of God's grace or anything to do with God's truths. They are foolishness to them. Thanks for sharing.

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Nilopher In reply to Caz-Art [2012-05-31 14:49:20 +0000 UTC]

very true. ^^

Thanks for reading God bless!

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Chimpso In reply to Caz-Art [2012-05-30 08:50:51 +0000 UTC]

Nah, we're just not brainwashed idiots like you lot.

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wabi777 In reply to ??? [2012-05-29 23:54:21 +0000 UTC]

Thank you for letting the Holy Spirit use you to be a witness to other people! This was an awesome read, and it was refreshing to read the TRUTH for once! Thanks

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Nilopher In reply to wabi777 [2012-05-30 00:08:26 +0000 UTC]

Thank you for reading! God bless!

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wabi777 In reply to Nilopher [2012-05-30 00:14:29 +0000 UTC]

You're welcome! you too!

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pralinkova-princezna In reply to ??? [2012-05-29 19:56:57 +0000 UTC]

Good read and specifically interesting is the point about starving the sinful nature. I hope it helps me when I need.

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Nilopher In reply to pralinkova-princezna [2012-05-29 23:54:12 +0000 UTC]

^^

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Miesjelluh In reply to ??? [2012-05-29 19:32:16 +0000 UTC]

i just needed those verses from Galatians but didn't know where to look for them. thank you!

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Nilopher In reply to Miesjelluh [2012-05-29 23:53:52 +0000 UTC]

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Chimpso In reply to ??? [2012-05-29 12:12:02 +0000 UTC]

So this god creates us sinful, then orders to be good. If we're not good, then we're tortured forever.

Yeah, this sounds like a god who loves me.

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wabi777 In reply to Chimpso [2012-05-29 23:50:05 +0000 UTC]

He didn't create us sinful. Our Human nature is sinful because Adam and Eve sinned, they were the first humans and sinned. Because of that we are born into sin, but Jesus , the only perfect person to have lived on this Earth, died for all of us so that we have the choice of accepting him when we CHOOSE to let him be our personal Lord and Savior.

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Chimpso In reply to wabi777 [2012-05-30 10:32:27 +0000 UTC]

Fuck Adam and Eve. I never met them and never knew them. Why are their sins now mine? I don't want them, I'm a good person. Why did god decide to punish the whole of humanity just because of a sin committed thousands of years ago?

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Nilopher In reply to Chimpso [2012-05-29 17:24:01 +0000 UTC]

He didn't create us sinful. We became sinful when Adam and Eve sinned for the first time.

He wants to restore us to our original state of perfection and without sin. He could have killed us all, getting rid of all sin in a more easy way for Him, but because He loves us He preferred to die for us so we could have a second chance.

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Chimpso In reply to Nilopher [2012-05-30 10:30:44 +0000 UTC]

Oh, so we're sinful now? OK God! You love me, absolve me of my sin and make sure I don't get tortured forever. I'm waiting.

Oh, and he died for us? How? He sacrificed his human body (which means nothing because, uh, he created the universe) and then rose again a few days later? That's a sacrifice? It just seems like showing off to me. Why did god need to "kill" himself. Why didn't he just say "I forgive you" and forgive our sins that way. Why the blood sacrifice?

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Nilopher In reply to Chimpso [2012-06-02 04:54:45 +0000 UTC]

Also, (I forgot to mention this in the other reply to you) this is a summary of my beliefs regarding the 'eternal hell' you've mentioned in both replies.

^^

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wabi777 In reply to Nilopher [2012-05-29 23:51:03 +0000 UTC]

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RoseOfTheNight4444 In reply to ??? [2012-05-29 09:02:23 +0000 UTC]

so wait...im confuzzled a wee bit...do you believe in the everlasting hell?

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Nilopher In reply to RoseOfTheNight4444 [2012-05-29 17:08:52 +0000 UTC]

Nop, ^^ I'm a SDA

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RoseOfTheNight4444 In reply to Nilopher [2012-05-29 18:49:35 +0000 UTC]

me too.

last night, a friend wanted to take his life because I couldn't answer the question whether God would destroy him in the lake of fire becausse he chose to not love God. All I can say is God gives many chances to all in their lifetime...but in the end times, it's very clear in the bible what the battle is about - worship. I see that those who worship Satan justly deserve to be destroyed unless they repent. But now my friend thinks he's a hateful God because of me

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storyteller23 In reply to ??? [2012-05-27 23:36:07 +0000 UTC]

I'll be praying for you, blackstrile. This Jesus is the only hope.

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Chimpso In reply to storyteller23 [2012-05-29 12:12:43 +0000 UTC]

Prove it.

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storyteller23 In reply to Chimpso [2012-05-31 18:37:06 +0000 UTC]

God doesnt need me to prove Him. He'll prove himself. Sometimes it means just giving Hima chance

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Chimpso In reply to storyteller23 [2012-05-31 21:58:27 +0000 UTC]

Well, he knows where to find me.

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storyteller23 In reply to ??? [2012-05-27 23:35:04 +0000 UTC]

Well written with great points! Love it!

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Nilopher In reply to storyteller23 [2012-05-28 17:20:44 +0000 UTC]

thanks, all glory to God! ^^

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storyteller23 In reply to Nilopher [2012-05-31 18:37:23 +0000 UTC]

Amen!

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blackstrike In reply to ??? [2012-05-27 21:01:56 +0000 UTC]

It is sad that in 21st century there are still people who believe in space daddy who will make it all better once they're dead.

Bible doesn't provide anything except:

a) common moral values that are obvious to any decent, normal human being without having to get them from stone tablets written by a weirdo who smoked too many funky cigarettes and

b) threats that if you don't believe what bible says you will burn in hell forever.

Pathetic.

I'm sure muslims, jews and dozens of other religions around the world have same arguments as you have, yet somehow you think that your religion is the right one, that J.C. actually existed and that he was white, skinny dude with hippie hair.

Yeah, right.

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wabi777 In reply to blackstrike [2012-05-30 00:10:24 +0000 UTC]

Just asking a question, please don't take any offense by this.
My 1st question is , how did you even come across this?
My second question is , if you read the artist description, why would you read this and comment?
What you believe is your belief and I'm sure people respect that. So why would say something hurtful to some people and incorrect...on a Christian post? It seems that you commented to try to bring attention to yourself , so someone could explain it (the Gospel and Jesus) to you..If you would like that , I can.

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